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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why are the Shi'a arguments for wilaya not straightforward?

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54 minutes ago, Warilla said:

This is one of the reasons I left 12er no clear proof of the aqeeda. 

Salam bro could you point which reason exactly. Because if I understand correctly the same logic the Sayyid applied could be used for the Zaydi imamate no?

idk I'm a bit confused lol

Edited by Berber-Shia
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4 hours ago, Berber-Shia said:

Salam bro could you point which reason exactly. Because if I understand correctly the same logic the Sayyid applied could be used for the Zaydi imamate no?

idk I'm a bit confused lol

Zaidi is quite broad so if we stick to Hadawi branch which it the only available with resources in English

Then Aqeeda is 6 articles

https://zaidiportal.com/fundamentals-of-islam#9d4f588e-1c30-40fd-8490-102c5e2f565c

Imamat part states the appointment of Imam Ali which is easily found in mutawatir hadith.

Eg even if you look up Saudi sanctioned books on mutawatir hadith you will find " You are to me as Haroon was to Musa"

If you go to Anti Shia Salafi sites you will find acceptance of Ghadir (who ever I am mawla.....) As authentic and mass transmitted.

So it's not difficult to find explicit widely accepted evidence. Obviously everyone has a right to interpretation of said hadiths 

If you come to 12 specific imams who are inffalible and appointed by Allah and say this is a must a point of aqeeda then a lot more vague and non mainstream evidence is required. 

 

Edited by Warilla
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5 hours ago, Berber-Shia said:

 same logic the Sayyid applied 

As for the logic the Sayyid applied I disagree in its application,  it requires playing devils advocate (understanding the position of a Sikh/Hindu etc). From a Shia/Sunni point of view there are things we agree on so that's where we should start.

Otherwise 2 Muslims would need to always backtrack all the way to atheism Vs creationism before they could discuss their differences. 

 

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On 1/25/2021 at 6:13 AM, Berber-Shia said:

Salam bro could you point which reason exactly. Because if I understand correctly the same logic the Sayyid applied could be used for the Zaydi imamate no?

Exactly...that's the first argument that popped into my head as well

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On 1/25/2021 at 5:19 AM, Ali bin Hussein said:

This is one of the reasons I left 12er no clear proof of the aqeeda. 

If one wants to be staunch and uncompromising then Zaydi imamate, Twelver imamate and Sunni caliphate can't be proven from Qur'an...neither can infallibility of prophets be proven directly from Qur'an in direct or blunt language.

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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On 1/25/2021 at 11:04 AM, Ali bin Hussein said:

Imamat part states the appointment of Imam Ali which is easily found in mutawatir hadith.

You can't show me the names of all 5 imams spelled out clearly in no uncertain terms from Qur'an hence your imamate has no scriptural basis 

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On 1/25/2021 at 11:04 AM, Ali bin Hussein said:

appointment of Imam Ali which is easily found in mutawatir hadith

When you prove the appointment of Ali you're proving concept of 12 imams indirectly...the 12 imams (or 5 imams or 7 imams) followed one after the other in succession...Allah appointed Ali first THEN Hasan  THEN  Husayn etc. etc...Children of Israel weren't required to believe in all 124,000 prophets during the time of Musa (S) for example...descendants of Cain weren't required to believe in 124,000 or 144,000 prophets during their era either...the theology or understanding was being disseminated gradually over time...there wasn't 12 contemporaries there simultaneously present for the people to follow any way...only an instruction to the congregation to follow Ali in an unwavering manner.

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32 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

When you prove the appointment of Ali you're proving concept of 12 imams indirectly

This doesn’t work, because there other Shia sects which don’t believe in all twelve Imams. 

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On 25/01/2021 at 3:04 AM, Ali_Hussain said:

 

It depends. For a man who just wants everything on table, nothing will be straight forward. The ones who want to seek truth will keep digging deeper and will never be contented with the info that they have.

It's not about Shia or Sunni or Zaydi or anything. 

It is about human fitrah. The struggle with the self. Which keeps on moving on and on and on. 

From historical perspective, you say that Shiism is not straight forward. But nothing is straight forward actually. From logic and rationality, Shiism makes complete sense and all questions have an answer. 

If we even dig deeper, without Shiism the twelver shia perspective makes complete sense. Yes, that's true that we have to struggle in order to reach the realities and it is true for all. 

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1 hour ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

other Shia sects

Other Shi'a sects are confused Waqifiyyah

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To be a Mukmin or knowledgeable person is not straightforward either.  The person has to show struggle to uncover so much secrets.

Wilayat and Imamah are the same situation.  Even to understand the Greatness of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), we have to show struggle and sincerity.  We can say Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the Greatest, but it may not affect our behaviors.

Wifes of the Prophet in  surah Tahrim showed that they lacked the understanding of Prophethood despite they were physically with the Prophet.

This is what i like on the concept of Wilayat.  Even for those born in the Shia family, they have to show struggle to understand Wilayat.

Islam will not allowed the followers to excel without sincere struggle.

The general direction on wilayat is clearly shown in Qur'an.  For the specific, we have to show struggle.

Even to understand the surah below, we need to struggle and dig deeper.

bismillah.gif
وَالْعَصْرِ {1}

[Shakir 103:1] I swear by the time,

إِنَّ الْإِنْسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ {2}

[Shakir 103:2] Most surely man is in loss,

إِلَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالْحَقِّ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالصَّبْرِ {3}

[Shakir 103:3] Except those who believe and do good, and enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience.

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4 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Twelver imamate and Sunni caliphate can't be proven from Qur'an...neither can infallibility of prophets be proven directly from Qur'an in direct or blunt language.

1- infallibility of our imams can be proven per Hadith thaqalayn that they are together till paradise .

http://sunnah.com/urn/636710

2- quran says don’t follow the ( fallible Sunnis caliph ) “sinner” 76:24

3- per that verse infallibility of prophets can also be proven .

4- prophets couldn’t do sin , because they were guided by Allah 6:87

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5 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

You can't show me the names of all 5 imams spelled out clearly in no uncertain terms from Qur'an hence your imamate has no scriptural basis 

Which 5 Imams are you reffering to. Imam Ali name is clearly mentioned in mutawatir hadith. If your criteria for aqeeda is Qur'an only that different.

 

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4 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

When you prove the appointment of Ali you're proving concept of 12 imams indirectly...the 12 imams (or 5 imams or 7 imams) followed one after the other in succession...Allah appointed Ali first THEN Hasan  THEN  Husayn etc. etc...Children of Israel weren't required to believe in all 124,000 prophets during the time of Musa (S) for example...descendants of Cain weren't required to believe in 124,000 or 144,000 prophets during their era either...the theology or understanding was being disseminated gradually over time...there wasn't 12 contemporaries there simultaneously present for the people to follow any way...only an instruction to the congregation to follow Ali in an unwavering manner.

This is the kind of explanation that made me leave. It's aqeeda too much sophistry and forced Interpretation required.

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3 hours ago, Zainuu said:

It's not about Shia or Sunni or Zaydi or anything. 

It is about human fitrah. The struggle with the self. Which keeps on moving on and on and on. 

 

Very good point. We all are different it's been proven people learn in different ways. 

Some are the point blank engineers and have no time for poetry and art. Some see art even in the most crude and functional of engineering.There are philosophers and literalist. 

It's all good. Main thing beleive in Allah and the Prophet do your wajibats and keep away from haram. 

Maybe Allah left things vague to allow the whole of humanity to accept Islam (just my subjective opinion)

Guidance is with Allah.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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3 hours ago, Zainuu said:

If we even dig deeper, without Shiism the twelver shia perspective makes complete sense. Yes, that's true that we have to struggle in order to reach the realities and it is true for all. 

Beautiful opening comment about different fitra followed by a "my truth is still the best comment" :grin:

We can agree to disagree 12er makes no sense to me from a rational view and the evidence is not explicit enough.

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1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Which 5 Imams are you reffering to. Imam Ali name is clearly mentioned in mutawatir hadith. If your criteria for aqeeda is Qur'an only that different.

 

Janab. If you stick to mutawatir transmission, then first prove that all books you got except Quran are mutawatir.

98% of our, yours and sunni hadiths and fatwa of scholars get discredited by this logic. 

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
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@Ali bin Hussein

You left 12ver ism because of brand new hadith authentication standards according to whom 9000 hadiths of kafi are zaef many majhool, etc.

You should have looked at Akhbari school of thought before leaving.

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
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I don't understand you.

First you accept Imamah of Infallible upto imam Hussein (عليه السلام).

Then somehow you go to fallible Janab e Zaid (رضي الله عنه) and take him as an Imam?

Where is evidence for his Imamah?

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10 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Janab. If you stick to mutawatir transmission, then first prove that all books you got except Quran are mutawatir.

98% of our, yours and sunni hadiths and fatwa of scholars get discredited by this logic. 

Qur'an is a miracle. It can proove itself. Also no need for chains of transmission as it is do widely memorised and and recited in totality. 

If you doubt the Qur'an issues a challenge.

As for books no book is mutawatir individual hadith  yes, but not whole books in totality. Also hadith. Were orally transmitted before becoming books.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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3 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

 

Where is evidence for his Imamah?

Qur'an. It gives the clear rules and exampkes for leadership.

Infallibility is not a criteria. Also our definition of infallibility is different I believe.

We believe in infallibility of first 3 Imams due to verse of purification combined with hadith if the cloak.

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23 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

@Ali bin Hussein

 

You should have looked at Akhbari school of thought before leaving.

I did it would mean accepting all hadith including tareef of Qur'an disbelief in any Imam leading to kuffar etc

Also it's very cyclic beleive in aqeeda to accept hadith use hadith to formulate aqeeda 

Mutawatir is not a condition or a formula that was created it's common sense to use hadith with strongest proof to base your aqeeda on after Qur'an.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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Bhai Imamah is first three includes Ismah. And Ismah is necessary for someone appointed by Allah to guide people.

All of a sudden you switch to Imamah of someone, which isn't even proven yet you demand mutawatir evidence for imamah of the rest of our imams.

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1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

did it would mean accepting all hadith including tareef of Qur'an disbelief in any Imam leading to kuffar etc

Not necessarily! Sheikh Sadooq never believed in Tahreef. So you can seek different interpretations of those hadiths.

And its obviously logical that rejecting a Guide sent by Allah Almighty for people would be Kufr.

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1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

As for books no book is mutawatir individual hadith  yes, but not whole books in totality. Also hadith. Were orally transmitted before becoming books.

And Oral transmission is the real problem. If you don't believe, goto internet and see videos how disorted messages become overtime when sent via long chain orally.

This isn't the case for Twelver Hadiths. They were written down and books became part of books that were written later.

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1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

As for books no book is mutawatir individual hadith  yes, but not whole books in totality. Also hadith. Were orally transmitted before becoming books.

I don't understand your logic.

How can mutawatir hadith b mutawatir if path is one?

If you say no number of transmitters matter, then can you count how many twelver books mention 12 imams and hadith on imamah of every imam in how many chains?

It casts doubt upon every thing we've got.

Problem is you demand mutawatir proof of Imamah of rest of imams, yet you don't even have one narration in which Allah or Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned Zaid (رضي الله عنه) is imam. Or did Zaid (رضي الله عنه) claim Imamah that he is Hujjah of Allah on earth?

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1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Not necessarily! Sheikh Sadooq never believed in Tahreef. So you can seek different interpretations of those hadiths.

And its obviously logical that rejecting a Guide sent by Allah Almighty for people would be Kufr.

Was sheikh Sadooq Akhbari ?

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1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

And Oral transmission is the real problem. If you don't believe, goto internet and see videos how disorted messages become overtime when sent via long chain orally.

This isn't the case for Twelver Hadiths. They were written down and books became part of books that were written later.

We don't live in a society of oral narration. Check out how experts can give themselves incredible memory capacity. People able to memorise crazy amounts verbatim.

Oral society where literacy was not important rely heavy on memorisation and testimony. Also the concept of mutawatir minimises error to negligible margins.

 

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1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

 

How can mutawatir hadith b mutawatir if path is one?

 

Mutawatir is mass transmitted so the path is multi. So a book may be authentically attributed to a author eg bukhari (for arguments sake) then individual hadith may have strong and weak chains so the book as a whole is not mutawatir in a sense of each hadith automatically being authentic. But the book itself maybe mass transmitted once it was written that doesn't automatically mean every hadith is.

A mutawatir hadith is mass transmitted to through multiple chains. Zaidi and 12er have strict criteria Sunni criteria varies.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

 

If you say no number of transmitters matter, then can you count how many twelver books mention 12 imams and hadith on imamah of every imam in how many chains?

 

The book of 12er are only authentic to 12er therefore it's mutawatir from your perspective.

Hadith of Imam Ali are quoted by Sunni and Shia and are mutawatir in each others respective books. That's strong evidence, enough to base aqeeda on for myself. Everyone has different standards. If you

except 12er hadith and 12er scholar opinion good for you.

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

.

Problem is you demand mutawatir proof of Imamah of rest of imams, yet you don't even have one narration in which Allah or Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned Zaid (رضي الله عنه) is imam. Or did Zaid (رضي الله عنه) claim Imamah that he is Hujjah of Allah on earth?

Imam Zaid imamat is not a point of aqeeda. 

 

Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

. They were written down and books became part of books that were written later.

How do you verify they became part of the other book accurately and in totality ?

Remember the 400 usool don't exist outside the compilations which have a 150-200 year gap..How do you bridge that gap ?

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1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

 

, then can you count how many twelver books mention 12 imams and hadith on imamah of every imam in how many chains?

 

I don't know. If you know the answer that will be helpful.

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