Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Iranian-Israeli Mixture.

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member

Salam.

I frequent a jewish forum and I've noticed a disturbing pattern between Shias and Jews when it comes to the idea of a country which they believe is solely represented by the religion. For jews, that country is Israel and for Shias that country is Iran. On the jewish forum that I go to, people have this attitude towards Israel that you can't criticize it, people get banned for just saying one or two things they disagree with over when it comes to Israel, Israeli-Jews who frequent that forum feel superior to their Jewish counterparts who do not live in Israel and bash them. I've seen this exact behavior on Shiachat where I've seen people with some Iranian ties bash non Iranians in an aura of superiority. I've seen this exact behavior on Shiachat where I've seen people who won't tolerate any criticism towards Iran whether valid or invalid. On the jewish forum, if someone talks about any news article about Israel the people call it "fake news". On shiachat if you post any news article or video about Iran or Iranians, the people on shiachat call it "fake news". 

Exactly what is the difference between these two parties? They have let their pure religion which is thousands of years old be polluted with nationalism over a country which is barely 50-70 years old nor they belong to that country in any way or shape. Also let's say Iran doesn't exist after 100 years and Liberia becomes the new Shi'a country. Will the loyalty of people on this forum and everywhere shift to Liberia then where Liberia will be the next Iran? And what happens afterwards?

This is the narrative both parties believe: 

Shia's for Iran: Iran is the stand against Imperialism of the West. Iran is amazing on how it's fighting the enemies of Islam and winning. Iran is the army of Imam Mahdi(عليه السلام). We must be loyal to Iran no matter what. Anyone who goes against Iran is not a Shia or pretending to be a Shia.

Jews for Israel: Israel is the stand against the barbarism of evil forces such as Islam. Israel is amazing on how it's fighting the enemies of Judaism and Jews everywhere and winning. Israel is the army of Yahweh and Messiah. We must be loyal to Israel no matter what. Anyone who goes against Israel is not a Jew or a decent human being.

Can someone please tell me the difference between these two people? Just one difference honestly. I'd really like to know whether only I'm seeing this common pattern or someone else can see it as well.

What most people don't realize that is that at the end of the day every country is fighting for it's own self-interests and their own goals. This isn't some Black and white narrative. It's gray, it's very gray. Every country no matter who are involved in some kind of shady business and immoral activities because that's how they have to survive in today's world. They could care less about the religion itself but both Israel and Iran are using religion for political gain. Iran has tried to put a monopoly over Shi'a Islam where no matter who or what you are, if you are Shi'a you have to support Iran. People paint soleimani  as some kind of hero but go and look at the civilian deaths the militias deployed by soleimani  have caused but ofcourse that's "fake news". The same way Israel is misusing Judaism for political gain where they have successfully mixed Judaism with their country. If you attack one, you're attacking the other. Look at the civilian deaths caused by their army but ofcourse that's "fake news" as well. 

As someone said above. Well being a shia, you have to be against oppression right? You don't have to be a Shia to be against oppression, you just have to be a human being. As the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says You can denounce something in 3 ways whether your hand, your tongue or your heart. I think most people in this world and on this forum use the latter. Whether that oppression is being done on Jews, Christians, Muslims. Oppression is Oppression and you gotta be against it despite what politics is going around.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 115
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Not all Shias hold the view you describe of Iran. I would suggest that quite a lot of Shias don't see Iran as such. Either way, tribalism is something that exists in all societies, communities and gro

Salam, Moalfas. Thank you for participating.   So, I'd like to specifically address this part of your answer which is again the narrative that Iran wants to push onto people so they support

Once again, you've missed the entire point. No one is telling you not to be political. No one is telling you not to engage in politics. Don't do dirty politics in the name of Shi'a Islam. In the name

Posted Images

  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, Moalfas said:

 

Nevertheless, Iran's stand against the injustices in Palestine for instance is admirable. Despite my many criticisms on certain aspects of Iranian foreign policy, it's important to give credit when credit is due.

Iran is the only Muslim country unwavering in their tangible support for the Palestinian cause despite the ongoing, debilitating and unjust sanctions against them. This is not something small and unlike the occupying Zionists who are committing injustices in Palestine and the region, Iran is supporting the resistance against such aggression with much more than lip service. Actual arms, training, funds etc

   

@Ashvazdanghe :p 

Salam, Moalfas. Thank you for participating.

 

So, I'd like to specifically address this part of your answer which is again the narrative that Iran wants to push onto people so they support the regime no matter what agreements or disagreements you could have with them in the future. Now why is supporting the Palestinians so important for Iran? In fact why is supporting any oppressed minority so important for countries? The answer is simple. It's politically advantageous to support oppressed minorities in this world, especially of your enemies. In politics, you exploit every weakness of your political rival no matter who or what he is and in today's world, it's important to win the hearts of people through a diplomatic manner than openly stage war on every front with your rival. So how do you do this? You smear the reputation of your political rival as much as possible. People hate oppression and oppressors in general, especially on the political front. I'm talking about the ordinary masses and this is what most politicians claim to be as well. People who hate oppression and fight to eliminate it. 

When your political rival is doing something which can be seen as oppression and this in turn can make the masses of various countries against them, so wouldn't it make sense to exploit this as much as possible? Why does Pakistan care so much about Kashmir? Because their treatment of Kashmir is a political weakness and Pakistan wants to make India look like a bad guy as much as possible. Why do western countries all of a sudden care so much about the Uyghars of China? Why should they care about a bunch of Muslims anyway? Because China is the political rival of those countries as well as an economic rival of those countries. The next time they want to stick it to China in some way in a manner of economic warfare or warfare in itself, then they'll simply use the Uyghars as an example of oppression if anyone tells them not to be it their own public or their own politicians or their allies. Why does India care so much about Shias and Christians of Pakistan? Because that's Pakistan's political weakness and the next time they want to stick it to Pakistan in some manner, they can use minorities as a backdrop to cover up their actions by saying Pakistan is an oppressor as well. Why does Canada care so much about taking in refugees? The answer is simple, it's politically advantageous for them and it bolsters their image as being amazing people. Also the party that does so have the undying fealty/loyalty of the refugees for life. Those refugees will tell their children to only vote for the party that saved them from those war-torn hell-holes. This message will go on for as long as their children have children and so on aka permanent vote bank which will never be faltered in any way or shape. 

It isn't about helping your fellow man. It isn't about being a good samaritan. It's simply using whatever method to conquer your enemies. Israel is a Lone-Wolf in the region so it uses the same methods. Iran is a Lone-Wolf in the region so it'll do whatever is required to secure a future for itself whether it's helping Sunnis, helping christians, Helping athiests, Using or Misusing Shi'a Islam. This is all politics. 

Take away the political advantages these situations have and assess for yourself how much people truly care for one another in these times. Your post perfectly captures the essence of what Iran wants you to believe and because you believe this, you are another political tool for them. How so? Because the next time let's say Iran gets attacked and people which think the same way you do; you will all go protest in support of Iran whether you're in an Eastern country or a western country. You're politically useful to them. Just like the people who march for Israel believing the exact narrative that they do are politically useful for them.

Seriously who can deny any of this? 

Also, I'd like to tag some people who posted their agreement and disagreement over the OP in the other thread.

@Sirius_Bright @Caroling @Soldiers and Saffron

Edited by El Cid
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Forum Administrators
50 minutes ago, El Cid said:

Now why is supporting the Palestinians so important for Iran? In fact why is supporting any oppressed minority so important for countries? The answer is simple. It's politically advantageous to support oppressed minorities in this world, especially of your enemies.

I am not sure this calculus holds water, in the instance that you describe.

The Iranians correctly realise that Palestine is just a foothold, if that is given up too easily (as the recent Abraham accords suggest it will), then the Israelis will be emboldened to expand throughout the region.

If you want an historical parallel, just look at the British in India. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
10 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

I am not sure this calculus holds water, in the instance that you describe.

The Iranians correctly realise that Palestine is just a foothold, if that is given up too easily (as the recent Abraham accords suggest it will), then the Israelis will be emboldened to expand throughout the region.

If you want an historical parallel, just look at the British in India. 

Salam, Haji.

What you described is yet again a political advantage as I've described that it's a game of Plus and Minus, not because the palestinians need help or because it's a "shia obligation" to help them but they will actively use Shi'a hadith about stopping oppression or Karbala to keep the masses on their side. Misusing religion for politics.

Israel has to go for Iran, whether they are oppressing Palestinians or not. Whether that crisis exists or not. And they will do anything to stop them. If the situation was reverse, no one would dare come in and help the oppressed Jews instead justifications would be made on why it's necessary just like the Israelis use whatever justisfications to get their result. It's about power and self preservation.

Edited by El Cid
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Psychological Warfare

Religion ( A way of Life) is a matter that deals with the Hearts and Minds of the people. One can Physically occupy a land and subject its people to follow their rules or stop them from practicing their Religious/Acts or Rituals, this only translates into Ownership of a Physical nature. An Occupier can't bring about a change at the Hearts/Mind level.

So, Securing a territory to be allowed to build house of worships and be allowed to practice daily rituals freely is important, and creating a Religious environment is important. However, these do not imply that if you do not have such conditions your Religion will perish. All-Shia's never had that and we survived the worst and still are dealing with it in the world and will continue to do so. There may have been autonomous regions or states in the past but they come and go, Physical Empires are transient in nature. 

If one looks at the world today, and change will have to be through Heart/Mind - You need to conquer the Hearts/Minds of the people of the World.( Like its was at the start of Islam). They would need to see you as the Most Trustworthy, Honest, Of the Highest Moral/Ethical character and a Leader who has a heart and genuinely Concerned for the people of the world - Such leadership will be accepted by the people of the world . As this kind of leadership is missing and the World desires a Just Leader.  There will be no War to occupy the hearts/minds of the people as it never was during the past ( expansion projects were the workings of the political leaders- an innovation). So, All the war games and securing  the territory or expansion are secondary issues. 

Survival is of a different Nature-Hearts and Minds. We are dealing with it all along, however since the middle of the 19th century- few Spiritual Viruses have emerged and taking a front seat. Atheism, Agnostism - in short Individualism Needs to be handled on  a priority based otherwise we can build countries and secure them with defensive weapons and fight physical  oppression all secondary. Spiritual Oppression if not handled and addressed will undermine these physical entities as the people living in these secure countries are infected with this Global Spiritual Pandemic and we will loose these Empires or they will be just hollow political entities. 

What happened in a Country in the 1970's is that they rejected the decline and wanted to adopt the Islamic way of life. It has met with severe opposition ( External and Internal). As the Model is run by fallible people they are subject to all the things that we humans are subject to. As such, it is a work in progress in the right direction. There are elements within and external elements who desire to see this go down in flames- Beast tactic is to utilize the Divide and Conquer Strategy. Utilize the nationalistic, ethnic pride and rally the ignorant to be their proxies in this war. The leadership needs to address internal conflicts and achieve internal Unity on a priority bases or ALL the other External work will be on no use, or will be of transient nature and in the end they will be back to square one. 

First achieve Internal Unity- A house United and withstand external pressures/tactics and project power outwards. A divided house will perish in the end and it will defeat the purpose of creation and the Sacrifices offered- In the end it will not Shia Islam at a Global level, it will be a disservice to the people of the country. 

I believe most of this projecting and branding part of divide an conquer Tactic will be recognized and will be addressed. It may take time ....

There may be other countries who will adopt the Government of A Jurist model and at that time things will really come out in the open - and people will recognize the error of their ways as leadership of the Shia communities does not depend on size of the territory, war,economic /political/social strength. The leaders of the respective countries will lead their own nation and the Global Shia will continue to follow the Fiqh from Najaf and Qum and learn form these Jurists who govern their respective nations as Leaders. Multiplicity will solve the problem and bring about the reality of the matter to us, that only leadership is from Najaf and Qum - Criteria the Most learned. 

Until that time, recognize the issue and avoid distractions

My Layman Overall understanding

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
19 minutes ago, El Cid said:

they will actively use Shi'a hadith about stopping oppression or Karbala to keep the masses on their side. Misusing religion for politics.

Actively take these stories and Hadiths out of context for their own political benefits. 
 

21 minutes ago, El Cid said:

not because the palestinians need help or because it's a "shia obligation"

They definitely don’t need our help when the Sunni’s are the majority.

and it’s definitely not a “Shia obligation” if most ISIS terrorists come from them and the majority of them in Sydney Aus ,besides the Shia, are Salafi’s 

 

27 minutes ago, El Cid said:

and help the oppressed Jews instead justifications would be made

Can’t really trust Jews.... unreliable people as we can see in history. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

I agree with all your observations @El Cid

And to add:

1. Iran claims to stand against Western Imperialism. What about the 25 year deal with China? In other words, Iran will be giving another country full control over their resources. They want to remove English language as the default international language in favor of Chinese being taught in schools? It’s all sucking up to another country to stick it to someone else. It’s politics for their own gain. 
 

2. Undying nationalism through religion and the idea of a shared enemy is a cult tactic to stay in power. You can clearly see how drone-like and brainwashed people are to think of Iran as the “chosen country” to represent Shia Islam. 
 

3. WF is the best example of cult-based ideology. By attributing a non-Islamic idea to alienate others and to strengthen their hold on their supporters, they have managed to taint Shia Islam with politics that have nothing to do with Islam. That anyone who is not for WF is automatically a non-believer. 
 

4. Iran frequently jails and tortures anyone who speaks out against the IRI. They also detain and jail people who have dual-citizenship to other countries, stalk social media of random Iranians, and execute anyone who doesn’t see Khomeini/khamenei as representatives of Shia Islam. From what I have seen in documentaries, schools have photos all over of those two people. 
 

5. The justice system is morally bankrupt. You can pay your way through anything. This is not Islam. This is self-interest. 

6. They speak out against the oppression of Palestinians, but nothing about Uyghur Muslims. Every other Muslim country has denounced and criticized the Uyghur Genocide except Iran. 
 

 

 

Edited by Caroling
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Who was there with support (weapons and money) when savages wanted to destroy Lady Zaynab's shrine and were on the way to the shrines in Iraq? You guessed it.

Stop being soypilled and cringe by playing the centrist's game.

Yes we acknowledge IRI might have done some wrongs, but does that mean they should stop? They are obviously not infallible and those responsible will pay their price. The goal however is necessary and right. To defend the Shias by establishing the WF in Iran and hawza in Qom and to defend the Muslim Ummah in the region from the West AND East.

11 minutes ago, Caroling said:

That anyone who is not for WF is automatically a non-believer. 

Wrong and cringe. Enemy does not equate disbeliever.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

 

14 minutes ago, Caroling said:


 

4. Iran frequently jails and tortures anyone who speaks out against the IRI. They also detain and jail people who have dual-citizenship to other countries, stalk social media of random Iranians, and execute anyone who doesn’t see Khomeini/khamenei as representatives of Shia Islam. From what I have seen in documentaries, schools have photos all over of those two people. 
 

 

 

I once talked about this here: 

But ofcourse people called it all "fake news" like they do with anything IRI-related, the same way Pro-Israelis do with anything related to Israel. Even the bruises and mutilations on people's bodies is "fake news". Even evidence of harsh rape and trauma on women is "fake news". Everything is "fake news" if it doesn't fit the narrative you believe.

16 minutes ago, Caroling said:

 

1. Iran claims to stand against Western Imperialism. What about the 25 year deal with China? In other words, Iran will be giving another country full control over their resources. They want to remove English language as the default international language in favor of Chinese being taught in schools? It’s all sucking up to another country to stick it to someone else. It’s politics for their own gain. 
 

 

 

China oppressing Uyghars = It's okay as long as they aren't your political rival.

3 minutes ago, Berber-Shia said:

 

Yes we acknowledge IRI might have done some wrongs, but does that mean they should stop?

Exactly what the British said to Indians. "Sure we mass murdered people here and there but hey we gave you roads right?" You're excusing morally corrupt behavior because of the narrative which is exactly the kind of mind-control they want to retain on all you Shias. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Psychological Warfare
Quote

 Shias that country is Iran

No.

These are Our Shia brothers and sister who have chosen to Self Govern themselves as they had the opportunity to do so. Inshallah They will succeed in this undertaking. So, Yes it makes me happy that shia of a particular region has taken the steps to guide their destiny. 

Other Shia's don't have this leverage as they are a minority in the regions except few and those should look in to a Government of the Jurists Concept and Elect a Jurist to oversee the ( Way of life) in that country. 

Once you have lets say Two countries with a Shia Majority and Government of the Jurists. 

This notion of one country is our country will be no longer valid. Yes at this point All are hopeful that our brothers in an autonomous geographical region will succeed. 

Our State is this Earth. Citizen are either our brothers in Faith or in kind. Our Valuable Cities/ Our Assets  are Mecca , Medina,  Najaf (Iraq) Karbala ( Iraq) , Damascus ( Syria), Mashhad(Iran)  and these we will defend regardless of the human borders or the regime in control of the physical boundaries. 

Our Flag is the flag of Abu’l-Fadhl al-’Abbas(عليه السلام)

Our Holy Imam is Imam Mahdi(عليه السلام). 

Jurists ( Marja-e-Taqlid) provide Global Guidance in terms of Fiqh. 

It would be nice to have self governance however its not practical at this point due to the nature of our people mostly spread around the world in Muslims and non muslims countries. So, Those who can have an autonomous region to govern and establish government of the jurists are fortunate and others are fortunate in other ways and the responsibilities are different. 

We are not into local hero worship. Our role models are already apparent to All. There are servants of our Imam(عليه السلام) who outshine others in their respective fields and that all that is, its transient in nature as every generation has been and will produce such servants. We don't have national default lines/ethnic/culture/race/color as grouping nor as a superiority factor. A Learned one from Iran, Iraq, Kenya, Nigeria, Mexico etc...can still be a Most learned one. 

Layman

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
3 minutes ago, El Cid said:

Exactly what the British said to Indians. "Sure we mass murdered people here and there but hey we gave you roads right?" You're excusing morally corrupt behavior because of the narrative which is exactly the kind of mind-control they want to retain on all you Shias. 

British mass murders were intentional (and in the millions lol). 

Show me that IRI's intentions were same and I'll accept the "comparison".

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
1 minute ago, Berber-Shia said:

Who was there with support (weapons and money) when savages wanted to destroy Lady Zaynab's shrine and were on the way to the shrines in Iraq? You guessed it.

That’s one good pure merit which they will also use as an coverup alongside their political “merits”, no denies Iran has done some good pure merits but they do not over weigh the for-political-reasons “merits” 

4 minutes ago, Berber-Shia said:

To defend the Shias by establishing the WF in Iran and hawza in Qom and to defend the Muslim Ummah in the region from the West AND East.

establishing WF does help defend the Shia at all. their concept of WF has many contradicting laws to the principles of the Ahlulbayt. 
 

Howza in qom is a good source of information and knowledge for Shia Islam and can be protected WTHOUT WF.
 

as for “defending“  the “ummah” that’s when it’s starts to get political and pure merits are low 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
2 minutes ago, Caroling said:

Anyone who is anti-WF is an enemy? That’s a cult tactic.

Once again disagreeing does not equate being anti something. If you disagree fine. Many scholars do.

If you are anti that means you declare your animosity --> you are enemy (which you declared first btw lol). I mean it's logical ain't it. 

And also, animosity does not going at it directly with violence. It's just taking stances.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
5 minutes ago, Berber-Shia said:

British mass murders were intentional (and in the millions lol). 

Show me that IRI's intentions were same and I'll accept the "comparison".

Wrong. The principle still stands whether it was intentional or not with the principle being that you can't sweep up morally corrupt behavior under the rug especially if it results in human lives being lost otherwise it's like the sunni version of Jamal "Aisha didn't start to intend a war against the Muslims at Jamal. People's swords just started moving on their own"

Edited by El Cid
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
9 minutes ago, El Cid said:

The principle still stands whether it was intentional or not with the principle being that you can't sweep up morally corrupt behavior under the rug especially if it results in human lives being lost

OK I would definitely have to agree on that principle. 

12 minutes ago, El Cid said:

otherwise it's like the sunni version of Jamal "Aisha didn't start to intend a war against the Muslims at Jamal. People's swords just started moving on their own"

But this might be a weak comparison since it was clear that Aisha's intention was to cause mayhem.

 

This raises a question however. Suppose (and I don't mean it is true), that the actions of the IRI alone (not the other parties) caused for innocent lives to perish and suffer, where do we go from there after taking the necessary actions (which we both agree) to punish those responsible ?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
5 minutes ago, Berber-Shia said:

OK I would definitely have to agree on that principle. 

But this might be a weak comparison since it was clear that Aisha's intention was to cause mayhem.

 

Well personally I don't feel it's a weak comparison because I explicitly said "sunni version" where they say Mistakes happen.

It's the same thing you said: "Yes we acknowledge IRI might have done some wrongs, "

So, I'll give you a more simple plain basic example:

Person X leaves his home to buy groceries in his car. He wrongly makes a wrong turn somewhere which results in a pedastarian being crushed to death by the car. 

Now did person X go out of his home to kill someone with his car? No. Did the killing happen? Yes. Should we sweep it under the rug because person X donated to some charity time to time or because he's a good person? No

as for your other question, I'll definitely answer it in a bit after getting done with some work.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Psychological Warfare
Quote

WF is the best example of cult-based ideology. By attributing a non-Islamic idea  
 

All governments around the world have a Value System. Conservatives or Liberal all these are in a nutshell redefined words/title meaning religious non religious. People who drafted the Original Constitution or the ones who amend it have a Value system which dictates their outlook hence the laws. You can't escape this universal fact. There is no such thing as a separation of Church/state. Our a way of life which defines the world view can't be extracted from the lawmaking. Conservatives and liberal will make laws based on their internal value system. Most counties the highest institution is their court of law. Majority prevails 5:4 decision has 4 No's and 5 Yes. It becomes the law regardless of the opposition of the 4 Jurists voting No. People have to live with it. 

Government of the Jurist is unnatural or  unislamic. 

Here page 641 (5.5) Sadiq Sharazi who has the opposite view  about Iran internal structure- the difference is that both parties agree on the structure of Over All Governance

However one is of the view One Jurists should lead and the other look like a body of Group of Jurists should lead-Unless i have misunderstood. 

Quote

Q: Who structures this law in a workable format?

A: The experts structure this under the supervision of the pious and righteous (‘a>dil) fuqaha>’ who are learned in religion and world affairs.

http://www.english.shirazi.ir/islamic-laws/

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
40 minutes ago, El Cid said:

Well personally I don't feel it's a weak comparison because I explicitly said "sunni version" where they say Mistakes happen.

It's the same thing you said: "Yes we acknowledge IRI might have done some wrongs, 

Didn't say it was invalid just weak.

40 minutes ago, El Cid said:

Person X leaves his home to buy groceries in his car. He wrongly makes a wrong turn somewhere which results in a pedastarian being crushed to death by the car. 

Now did person X go out of his home to kill someone with his car? No. Did the killing happen? Yes. Should we sweep it under the rug because person X donated to some charity time to time or because he's a good person? No

This one however is a strong one. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, THREE1THREE said:

establishing WF does help defend the Shia at all. their concept of WF has many contradicting laws to the principles of the Ahlulbayt.

Could you elaborate on the link between contradictions of law and defending the Shia? I don't really understand this statement.

 

1 hour ago, THREE1THREE said:

as for “defending“  the “ummah” that’s when it’s starts to get political and pure merits are low

Well naturally I would disagree but could you please explain me as to why pure merits are low? (And why ummah is between quotation marks? lol)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
4 hours ago, El Cid said:

t ofcourse people called it all "fake news" like they do with anything IRI-related, the same way Pro-Israelis do with anything related to Israel. Even the bruises and mutilations on people's bodies is "fake news". Even evidence of harsh rape and trauma on women is "fake news". Everything is "fake news" if it doesn't fit the narrative you believe.

The sad thing is that even if the evidence were to smack them across the forehead, they’d still call it “fake news”. This isn’t limited to Iran. Turkey is also known for imprisoning anyone who speaks out against the government. And one person from that thread you posted does a great job of victim-blaming, saying that the victims are exaggerating. 
 

They just want to believe that the IRI is the best country ever. Let them continue to delude themselves. God will deal with them in due course. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
3 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

All governments around the world have a Value System. Conservatives or Liberal all these are in a nutshell redefined words/title meaning religious non religious.

That isn’t what Liberal and Conservative means. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
47 minutes ago, Caroling said:

The sad thing is that even if the evidence were to smack them across the forehead, they’d still call it “fake news”.

Could you collect some evidences for me to look at. And I don't mean this as a challenge or gotcha moment. I'm still young and still learning so I'm genuinely curious to know what the facts really are.

Thanks

 

PS I also don't want a simple "look it up" answer. Since I don't really know what to look for and where to start.

Edited by Berber-Shia
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
7 hours ago, El Cid said:

Also, I'd like to tag some people who posted their agreement and disagreement over the OP in the other thread.

 @Soldiers and Saffron

Salam,

I disagree with your opinion and comparison on several points. But I want to summarize my reply regarding some of what you said very short by saying that the IR does not need to be enemies with the US or israel to begin with.

As for your opinion in general I find it very unbalanced and black/white. Frankly spoken I personally find your opinion as absurd as someone whos opinion is the literal opposite of yours, someone who would say that Iran is the perfect image of Islam.

As for what you mentioned that critic against IR is not accepted, I have to say that I disagree with that as well, in fact during my time on SC I have seen more critic against the IR here (some of it valid, most of it not) than I have my entire life both online elsewhere and offline and for some users it even seems to be an obsession, to the degree that they would try and make a thread regarding habibs fitna movie into a thread about WF and the IR. I say IR because there is a difference between Iran and the IR, yet many seem to not tell them apart or want to tell them apart.

I am sorry brother but I am not going to engage in this discussion for multiple reasons.

When I was younger I assumed that anyone who enters a discussion does so for the sake of discussing but as I grow older I realize that not everyone who talks does so for the sake of exchanging information and opinions, which then would include listening as well, something I feel is quite absent most of the time here. There has to be sincerity among those who discuss otherwise its just opinions being thrown around without any meaningful exchange of words or each others time.

I very rarely find such sincerity and it seems to be that one of the reasons might be because of the type of people these kinds of forums attract and from my observations such people are normally very introverted people who dont seek discussions in their real life (face to face) but have a lot of opinions inside them regardless. Opinions they wish to express but not necessarily discuss, which renders discussions void. Not always but most of the time.

From my observations it seems that people who are seeking meaningful discussions are becoming less and less on here and most discussions where there are differences of opinion usually ends up in people trying "score points" against their counterpart while stroking their egos as well as others displaying football mentality on steroids, it really seems childish to me and not really a meaningful way of spending ones time (on all ends to be honest).

Personally I think everyone should look more to the basics, I mean whats the point of discussing IR and WF if we do not even know the basics of Islam or are even sure of them. Or whats the point of discussing these things with such fervor when we cannot keep to halal/haram in our day to day lives.

 

This is your life and you are free to think how you want and live accordingly and ultimately you will stand for the way you spent your life on earth like everyone else that individually will as well. To me it seems strange for someone who has yaqeen in his opinion to seek a discussion to begin with and you seem very set on your opinion to my understanding. What is then the point of discussing it? If others agree or disagree it wont make your understanding any more correct and wrong because certainty has already been achieved. 

Now I have once more spent far more time and energy writing something on this site that I seriously doubt will be of any benefit or even completely read. I do not think most people are open to changing their perception or views on these topics on this forum, I think its quite big subjects being discussed and I see quite extreme opinions being thrown and frankly spoken, as a struggling layman myself, I rather personally spend my time and energy on the basics and leave these topics to the scholars to discuss.

Fi amanillah!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
12 minutes ago, Soldiers and Saffron said:

Salam,

I disagree with your opinion and comparison on several points. But I want to summarize my reply regarding some of what you said very short by saying that the IR does not need to be enemies with the US or israel to begin with.

in our day to day lives.

Wasalam.

No worries, I respect your opinion. But I'm not saying IR does not need to be enemies or needs to be enemies with XYZ. Iran can be an enemy to whomever it wants. Iran can be a friend to whomever it wants. My issue is the issue of misusing Shi'a Islam for It's political ambitions. My issue is the hijacking of Shi'a Islam for political reasons and ambitions. My issue is manipulating the Shi'a population and playing with their emotions to get them to support whatever political ambition the IR has where you tell them that this is what the Imams(عليه السلام) would've wanted. My issue is that you're declaring people as Non-Shi'as simply because of their political opinion which members of the IR are doing as if they are the ones who will be the Judges on the Day of Judgement instead of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). If Iran wants to play it's political ambitions, it can do that all day. It can tell people Look we need to support Palestine because this is politically beneficial for us. It does not need to use the backdrop of Karbala and Shi'a hadith to do this. This is dishonesty and Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has warned us to not use religion for our own ends/gains.

And why do I take these issues? Because it affects me. It affects every Shi'a in the world. This is a globalist community, what happens on one side of the equator affects another person on the other side of the equator. As long as Iran keeps mixing Shi'a Islam with their political antics, the next time you tell someone I'm a Shi'a. They will only know what a Shi'a is through the actions of Iran no matter how just or evil they are. They will know what a Shi'a is by the slogans the IR chants. Just like when you tell a Sunni you are a Shi'a, the first image they get is people bloodying themselves in trance like tatbir rituals. Islam already has a bad enough reputation because of the Ahle-Sunnat and now you want to add another trial in the day to day lives of ordinary Shi'a who have nothing to do with anything. This is why we must be responsible and not let people play the same tactics the Bani-Ummayah played back in the day to add more burden to the lives of people.

Wasalam.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Forum Administrators
8 hours ago, El Cid said:

What you described is yet again a political advantage as I've described that it's a game of Plus and Minus, not because the palestinians need help

To address something that could become an existential threat is hardly playing a 'political advantage'. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
1 hour ago, El Cid said:

Wasalam.

No worries, I respect your opinion. But I'm not saying IR does not need to be enemies or needs to be enemies with XYZ. Iran can be an enemy to whomever it wants. Iran can be a friend to whomever it wants. My issue is the issue of misusing Shi'a Islam for It's political ambitions. My issue is the hijacking of Shi'a Islam for political reasons and ambitions. My issue is manipulating the Shi'a population and playing with their emotions to get them to support whatever political ambition the IR has where you tell them that this is what the Imams(عليه السلام) would've wanted. My issue is that you're declaring people as Non-Shi'as simply because of their political opinion which members of the IR are doing as if they are the ones who will be the Judges on the Day of Judgement instead of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). If Iran wants to play it's political ambitions, it can do that all day. It can tell people Look we need to support Palestine because this is politically beneficial for us. It does not need to use the backdrop of Karbala and Shi'a hadith to do this. This is dishonesty and Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has warned us to not use religion for our own ends/gains.

And why do I take these issues? Because it affects me. It affects every Shi'a in the world. This is a globalist community, what happens on one side of the equator affects another person on the other side of the equator. As long as Iran keeps mixing Shi'a Islam with their political antics, the next time you tell someone I'm a Shi'a. They will only know what a Shi'a is through the actions of Iran no matter how just or evil they are. They will know what a Shi'a is by the slogans the IR chants. Just like when you tell a Sunni you are a Shi'a, the first image they get is people bloodying themselves in trance like tatbir rituals. Islam already has a bad enough reputation because of the Ahle-Sunnat and now you want to add another trial in the day to day lives of ordinary Shi'a who have nothing to do with anything. This is why we must be responsible and not let people play the same tactics the Bani-Ummayah played back in the day to add more burden to the lives of people.

Wasalam.

Bismehe Ta3ala 

Assalam Alikum Brother.

Rasoul Allah and our Imams would defend and support the weak, oppressed, and who were voiceless. 

Imam Khomeini was consistent in his speeches and action about political leaders who oppressed the minorities and natives of imperalistic and apartheid countries.  Wherever the mustadth3feen were, he would support them and shed light and bring attention to injustices occuring to the people.  Why is it offensive to you if Imam Khomeini derives the lessons taken from Karbala, and apply it to our lives and the world we live in?  How is that misusing the message?  Is this a sin or just inconvenient for you because of where you are living?

How are you burdened brother?  What is making you uncomfortable?

M3 Salamah,  FE AMIN ALLAH 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
24 minutes ago, Laayla said:

 

Rasoul Allah and our Imams would defend and support the weak, oppressed, and who were voiceless. 

 

It's kind of sad that Rasoul Allah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams(عليه السلام) would defend and support the weak, oppressed and the voiceless in only Palestine and turn a blind eye in China according to the institution you're defending which brings me back to post #3 on this topic.

I don't see this consistency and it only makes me think of the political advantages I spoke of before. If these are the lessons from Karbala that are being learnt where the action is fighting an Oppressor in one front and then shaking hands with an Oppressor in another front, then I don't think we are learning the same lessons from Karbala. Doing all this in the backdrop of Shi'a Islam is what makes it sinful and not an inconvience to me.

 

Edited by El Cid
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Psychological Warfare
9 minutes ago, Laayla said:

 

Rasoul Allah and our Imams would defend and support the weak, oppressed, and who were voiceless. 

Imam Khomeini was consistent in his speeches and action about political leaders who oppressed the minorities and natives of imperalistic and apartheid countries.  Wherever the mustadth3feen were, he would support them and shed light and bring attention to injustices occuring to the people.  Why is it offensive to you if Imam Khomeini.....

Do you see the problem , so why do you not just use the farsi word for a leader. Looks like there is no difference in the Imams and the local leaders you call imams. Its done by the sunni's and zaidi. It can't be that people are not aware of it. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
On 1/22/2021 at 11:03 AM, El Cid said:

On shiachat if you post any news article or video about Iran or Iranians, the people on shiachat call it "fake news". 

Now l ain't never seen this. Critiques of Poor Reason , objections to opaque opinions, scanty sources for statements; but as yet, not "fake news."

8 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

These are Our Shia brothers and sister who have chosen to Self Govern themselves . . .

And without the US convincing them to vote-the-Amerikan-way.  :yahoo:

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
32 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It's cemented Iran & it's people will be army of Imam Mahdi if they follow procedure of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) inshaAllah.

That the problem here you make a certain group as if it is the whole nation.... it is group and one happens to be from qom and others from Syria and other nations whom will aid imam al Mahdi (عليه السلام) 

 

Iran has many racist remarks within it and other problematic stuff which are hidden under the rug, I don’t deny Iran that has done some good pure merits, but as for using Palestine as a “pure merit” is just a plain lie, why one earth would you defend a country that’s anti Shia and full false information about it & isis has many of its people from them. 
 

51 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

that Iran goal spreading Justice & freedom of mankind & bringing equality & Justice for all people of word

Then why is iraq a battlefield for them for their proxy wars with other countries. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...