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In the Name of God بسم الله

Do you believe that God waited to existentiate creation / the universe?

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Do you believe that God waited to existentiate creation / the universe or do you believe that God was always creating / existentialist creation? If we held the former view then we may have to say God waited “∞-13.77 billion years” to create the universe.

I am more inclined to believe the latter but doesn’t Shiite theology entail the beginning of a creation called the Nur (Light) of Muhammad as the first creation. So I’m not sure how this view of eternal existentiation would hold unless I say the Light of Muhammad is being created this very moment.

Some Sufis and philosophers (like Ibn Sina) held the view there was no beginning to creation. According to a website, the reasons cited include:

Quote

The universe is eternal: Avicennians believe this for two reasons:
First Point: Change Requires a “Determinant”: If creation has a beginning in time, then there would be a time BEFORE creation when there was only God, in which case God sat around for a long time not creating and THEN He decided to create. But, this change requires an explanation (a “determinant”). When God finally creates, we might ask: “Why now, and why not before?” Did something in God’s will change? Did His power change? Or what? Say that His will changed. Well, now THAT requires an explanation: Why did God change His will NOW and not earlier? Did a new desire appear in God? Some new reasons? Or what? And now THAT thing will require an explanation... And so on, which is absurd. For, as eternal, God is fixed and immutable. He cannot change. So, the whole premise of God changing his will, desire, or activity, etc., is absurd. In short,
“If the determinant did not emerge, the world should still remain in the state of bare possibility, in which it was before. But if it has emerged ... why does it come into being now, and did not do so before? ... [I]t is absolutely clear that the procession of the temporal from the eternal is impossible, unless there were a change in the eternal in respect of power, or means, or time, or nature. And it is impossible to suppose a change in the states of the eternal.” (Incoherence, pr. 1)
 

Second Point: Fully Present Causes Necessitate Their Effects: You might think God could have willed FROM ETERNITY that the world begin in time. But the Avicennian denies this possibility. For, remember, causes necessitate their effects. Avicenna believes that: Whenever (a) the cause is fully present, and (b) nothing is hindering the cause, then the effect must also be present, “concurrent” (or, simultaneous) with the cause.
For instance, generally, when the Sun is present, so is the cause of its light. But, if (b) something is blocking its light, then light will be absent. For (a), imagine a match and some newspaper—fire is not yet present because the cause is not FULLY present. A third thing is needed: You must STRIKE the match. [Ghazali gives an example of a man who declares that a divorce will not become official until sunrise. Here, the sufficient cause is the declaration+sunrise. So, before sunrise, the full cause is not yet present.]
Since God is eternal, He is ALWAYS present. So, if His creation is NOT always present, then before the universe began it must have been either be the case that (a) the complete cause was still absent, or (b) something was hindering the cause. But, nothing hinders God. He is all-powerful. So, (b) is false. Furthermore, there is no change or anything that God has to “wait for” prior to creation. So, (a) is false. It follows that the world is present whenever God is; i.e., it must be eternal. In short,
“It is impossible for the cause to fail to produce its effect when all the conditions and factors requisite for the causal operation are complete and nothing else remains to be awaited. ... With intention being coupled with power, and with all obstacles having been removed, it is unintelligible that the intended thing should be delayed.” (Incoherence, problem 1)
Anyone who disagrees, and denies the eternity of the world, must say the following:
That the Cause existed; that all the conditions of its efficiency were complete, so that nothing else remained to be awaited; that, in spite of all this, the origination of the effect was postponed over a length of time, the beginning of which cannot be imagined, and which could not be measured out even by millennia; and that eventually the effect made its appearance all of a sudden, without a new factor coming into operation, or a new condition being realised. And such a thing is intrinsically impossible. (ibid.)
In short, if God is eternal, and unchanging, then He is ALWAYS present—and furthermore, whatever will He had to create would ALSO always be fully present. Therefore, His creation would always be present too.
Problem: Ghazali believes that this view is contrary to the Muslim faith. For, the Qu’ran states that the universe DID have a beginning.
Avicennian Reply: The Sun and its effect (namely, light) are simultaneous in time. But, the Sun is still “prior” to the light in the sense that it is a CAUSE of, or is EXPLANATORILY PRIOR to, the light. So, “in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” gets re-interpreted as not meaning that there is a beginning in TIME, but rather that God is a “beginner” or FIRST CAUSE of the universe

https://wmpeople.wm.edu/asset/index/cvance/kalam

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Guest GuestTester
On 1/19/2021 at 12:41 AM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Allah is beyond time and space. Time (I am assuming) is one of Allah's first creations. Hence, you cannot limit Him to the boundaries of time. He created everything in a certain order with possible intervals between them, all with reasoning behind it. So you cannot say He 'waited' nor can you say He was always creating as that would imply that the boundaries of time are applied to Allah.

Time doesn’t exist really when u think about it cause that would mean that time controls matter , but there is many instances of the opposite happening, we measure time by change so we define time when change happens , but change isn’t governed by time so time doesn’t exist, it’s just a general definition of some rate of change from some perspective, but it isn’t a governing force , it just appears that way but really it’s meaningless

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On 18/01/2021 at 6:55 PM, 313_Waiter said:

Do you believe that God waited to existentiate creation / the universe or do you believe that God was always creating / existentialist creation? If we held the former view then we may have to say God waited “∞-13.77 billion years” to create the universe.

I am more inclined to believe the latter but doesn’t Shiite theology entail the beginning of a creation called the Nur (Light) of Muhammad as the first creation. So I’m not sure how this view of eternal existentiation would hold unless I say the Light of Muhammad is being created this very moment.

Some Sufis and philosophers (like Ibn Sina) held the view there was no beginning to creation. According to a website, the reasons cited include:

https://wmpeople.wm.edu/asset/index/cvance/kalam

Nice Question.

I would agree with a mixture of both the options.

Allah created what all exists in the beginning only:

Quote

2:116) And they say: Allah has taken to himself a son. Glory be to Him; rather, whatever is in the heavens and the earth is His; all are obedient to Him.

(117) Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth, and when He decrees an affair, He only says to it, Be, so there it is.

But Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) also has a control and command over all what exists.

Hence, after all creation comes into place, the name of 'creator' is not removed from the names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) still creates and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) even changes what is created.

The first view also makes sense if we differentiate between 'form' and 'light' (light can have different abstract meanings like attributes, names, idea etc)

So, the light was created initially.

While it is given 'form' afterwards.

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On 1/18/2021 at 6:55 PM, 313_Waiter said:

God waited “∞-13.77 billion years” t

Time and memory are two important factor of this illusion (life/creation), if you understand time you will understand everything.
Time is created as such that it is not changing, but all things change in time. For time is the  factor that holds events separate, each in its proper place. Time is not in  motion, but you move through time as consciousness moves from one event to another. 
Know you that even though in time you are separate, yet still are One in all times existent.
Time and space is the property of only this present virtual reality.
We cannot perceive the timeless realm. 
After death/realization (liberated from illusion) the vision is clear.

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On 1/19/2021 at 12:25 AM, 313_Waiter said:

I am more inclined to believe the latter but doesn’t Shiite theology entail the beginning of a creation called the Nur (Light) of Muhammad as the first creation. So I’m not sure how this view of eternal existentiation would hold unless I say the Light of Muhammad is being created this very moment.

This is what I derived after having a discussion with someone random:

God's “noise” (kun Faya koon) and “sacred silence” pattern is cyclical, or like Torus knots. The “Big Bang” which scientists talk about could be one instance of such noise. Though it’s important to not take science as one’s ilah given it changes every decade or so.

So if what they said^ was right, there could be a plethora of Muhammadan Lights or Haqiqat e Muhammadi. Thoughts? @Shahrukh K

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2 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:


We cannot perceive the timeless realm. 
 

We can a vacuum is timeless where nothing changed or happens , so if some matter remains frozen in its state disregarding space as a factor then we have a space unfazed by time ie it doesn’t change 

for example a person who doesn’t change in ‘age’ meaning their youth never leaves them ie khidr or imam Mahdi they remain youthful always and not age then they are in a time bubble meaning they are timeless even though everyone else around them is ageing and getting old and changing 

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On 1/29/2021 at 9:10 AM, 313_Waiter said:

This is what I derived after having a discussion with someone random:

God's “noise” (kun Faya koon) and “sacred silence” pattern is cyclical, or like Torus knots. The “Big Bang” which scientists talk about could be one instance of such noise. Though it’s important to not take science as one’s ilah given it changes every decade or so.

So if what they said^ was right, there could be a plethora of Muhammadan Lights or Haqiqat e Muhammadi. Thoughts? @Shahrukh K

If there were many “Mohammadan Lights” all those Lights would have to be encompassed by another and more encompassing Muhammadan Light.  It defeats the point of having a Muhammadan Light at all if there were many of them.  

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On 1/18/2021 at 8:25 AM, 313_Waiter said:

Do you believe that God waited to existentiate creation / the universe or do you believe that God was always creating / existentialist creation? If we held the former view then we may have to say God waited “∞-13.77 billion years” to create the universe.

I am more inclined to believe the latter but doesn’t Shiite theology entail the beginning of a creation called the Nur (Light) of Muhammad as the first creation. So I’m not sure how this view of eternal existentiation would hold unless I say the Light of Muhammad is being created this very moment.

Some Sufis and philosophers (like Ibn Sina) held the view there was no beginning to creation. According to a website, the reasons cited include:

https://wmpeople.wm.edu/asset/index/cvance/kalam

Although creation exists, the existence of creation is not real.  It is like a dream.  Although dreams occur (exist), dreams are not “real”!   That which is real cannot come and go.  Reality is truly beyond the duality of existence and non-existence.  Creation is itself this duality between existence and non-existence.  Even if there were “a time”  when creation was non-existent, that itself is part of the duality of creation!  

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On 1/18/2021 at 6:25 PM, 313_Waiter said:

Do you believe that God waited to existentiate creation / the universe or do you believe that God was always creating / existentialist creation?

In both the ways, one would be trying to imprison/trap God into space/time. 

هُوَ اللَّهُ الَّذِي لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ عَالِمُ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَادَةِ هُوَ الرَّحْمَنُ الرَّحِيمُُ

So tell me whether God create things which He knows or those which He don't know?

Is there "anything" which He knows not? If He knows "everything" and few of the things have not yet manifested themselves, do we say God "waited" to create them? 

If things are not manifesting their existence, does that mean they are non-existent?

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15 hours ago, Guest Slave of Ali said:

Although creation exists, the existence of creation is not real.  It is like a dream.  Although dreams occur (exist), dreams are not “real”!   That which is real cannot come and go.  Reality is truly beyond the duality of existence and non-existence.  Creation is itself this duality between existence and non-existence.  

Thanks brother. When I wake up from a nightmare I think to myself "thank God that did not happen", because that experience was only relatively real in the dream (since existence/ reality encompasses all things) but not actually real (when I woke up), is this what you mean when you say it is between existence and non-existence? But perhaps if we are to take this approach and say that creation is an illusion / deception (al ghurur - 57:20), then relative to itself it is 

15 hours ago, Guest Slave of Ali said:

Even if there were “a time”  when creation was non-existent, that itself is part of the duality of creation!  

Wouldn't this entail that at that point there is only Reality / the Real and there is no dream/ creation/ illusion? 

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16 hours ago, Guest Ali-is-the-Wali said:

If there were many “Mohammadan Lights” all those Lights would have to be encompassed by another and more encompassing Muhammadan Light

What if we say that there is a period where only God's Face remains and all else is annihilated?

"All that is on earth will perish: But will abide (for ever) the Face of thy Lord,- full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour." (55:26-27)

Nonetheless, I don't see God repeating the same creation since there is no limit to the logos:

"Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid." 18:109

 

Note: I am not sure if I have applied these verses correctly

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On 1/18/2021 at 7:25 AM, 313_Waiter said:

God waited “∞-13.77 billion years” to create the universe.

Salam Alaykum.

 

This is a stolen number from Quran, also not accurate, they always talks about billion/million years even Muslims, without proving it. think about it, they can not even and accurately talk about an age of something earthly. even Muslims, mentioning or learning these numbers without asking themselves: how did we reach this numbe

 

Time is Nothing, Time is attached to Material Energy, space or Place. you miss the place and you miss the time als

 

I did spend years on this topic, creation, existence, Bigbang they call ( also stolen from Quran but not perfectly) and Alhamdullelah find my answers, the problem is hard to publish them, because 1-Its gonna be hard for believers to believe it or 2-Zionist power gonna use them in a wrong way. for your information we'd 6 Bingban

 

Universe age is around is 123,187,500, the age of our Heaven/Earth is around 13,687,500, and 4,562,500 left before the next BingBang(Qiamat). Each BingBang Happanes every 18,250,000 years(wish i could share my knowledge with my brothers and sisters humbly, but sadly im dealing with neck disc and recently a massive pain on my back so its hard for me using computer and typing at the same time

 

Dont trust these sciences nowdays who claims theres no god and this is the age of universe etc etc. they've no idea whats going on and they are completely ignorant and i also believe they have a mission to distract people from the Almighty God Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). they dont believe in angels nor prophets nor God. just listen to their stupid words all over the internet. god punish them Enshallah because they know whats going on, they know theres a god, an ultimate power, they know nothing is rando

 

also the Mighty power in the world isnt Gravity, its Repulsion, i thanks the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his holy ahlul bayt a,s thousand times for letting us muslim knowing this knowledge throught them, Especially Hazrat Zahra s.a Khutba in one of her books, Unblievable, the way she described the creation, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) also, in Nahj Al-Balaq

 

for you brothers and Sisters to enlighten you about something, Allah is a creator thats right but, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is something else before he became a creator, hes an A'amer(الامر) comes from the Word, Amr(امر) sadly theres no Equal word for it in any Language, maybe in Persians because they use the same arabic word from Quran. all the creations came to the existence after this incident, this living being called Amr(imam sadeq (عليه السلام) described it perfectly and clean in one of his Hadit

 

long topic and a new one, takes times and efforts to put it all in here. think brothers and sisters, when you read the quran, think and ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for knowledg

 

Salam.[edit]

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18 hours ago, Ham14 said:

Universe age is around is 123,187,500, the age of our Heaven/Earth is around 13,687,500, and 4,562,500 left before the next BingBang(Qiamat). Each BingBang Happanes every 18,250,000 years

Salam Allah said clearly  that nobody except  him knows time of Qiamat so calculating  of day of Qiamat is a far fetch idea with wrong coclusion so day of Qiamat doesn't  relate to BigBang which can happens  anytime even now but certainly  before day of Qiamat the reappeance  of Imam Mahdi (aj) will happen  inshallah even his 

reappeance happens at one day remained to Qiamat.

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On 1/18/2021 at 1:25 PM, 313_Waiter said:

Do you believe that God waited to 

I think the problem us the term waited. It's a very human notion tied to time.

It's not one of the attributes Allah has as ascribed to himself in revelation.

In Nahjul balagah Imam Ali explicitly states Allah created everything from nothing. That includes time.

Trying to answer what was Allah doing is not a worthwhile excercise as we will begin ascribing  attributes to him that he has not used himself. Eg the one who waits ?

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48 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

In Nahjul balagah Imam Ali explicitly states Allah created everything from nothing

Salam

Please show me the verse. I am pretty sure he wouldn’t have said it in this way but I could be wrong and am happy to be corrected. Basically, the definition of nothingness is such that using the term is redundant (see red). Please correct me if you meant something else.

“That which is perceived is existence. We exist and other than us whatever is exists. We are nothing but existence. Have nothing but existence. Perceive nothing but existence. And see nothing but existence. The opposite of existence is non-existence which is nothingness. Does not exist. It is not any thing and so cannot be perceived in the first place in the external realm of reality. Even discussing or conceiving it, i.e. mentally, can only be done under the umbrella of existence. Existence is the source of and the origin to infinite vast array of emanations, actualizations and manifestations. Whatever emanates, actualizes, or manifests in reality must have done so through existence, not non-existence. This principal is the most self-evident of principals. In short, other than existence, there is nothing. All is and all manifestations arise through existence. Existence runs the order of the universe. It is rather the universe per se.”

Ayatullah Hasanzadeh, in his book Marefate Nafs Lesson 1

As you know this has lead to some Sufis and philosophers saying God is Existence or Being itself (Existence is infinite, boundless etc.). Regardless if we agree with this, this first premise seems to be self-evident^^.

 

 

48 minutes ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

Trying to answer what was Allah doing is not a worthwhile excercise as we will begin ascribing  attributes to him that he has not used himself. Eg the one who waits ?

I’m not sure brother and I am scared of ascribing anything to Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), though one of His (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) attributes is as Saboor, The Patient, and He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) manages all affairs according to a fixed measure according to this:

Quote

99. "Al-Saboor"

The Praised and Glorified One has said, 

... nor did they weaken, nor did they abase themselves, and Allah loves those who are patient. (3:146)

"Al-Saboor" is an Attribute of Allah linguistically derived from the noun sabr which means: withholding one's self from expressing its overwhelming grief. Al-Saboor is most patient, Whose patience is greater than anyone else's. The month of Raman is called the month of patience and perseverance: during its days, the believer withholds himself/herself from yielding to the desires.

Al-Saboor, Glory to Him, is the Clement One Who does not surprise those who disobey Him by suddenly inflicting His penalty on them; rather, He forgives and postpones His carrying out of such a penalty. Al-Saboor does not rush to do anything too early; rather, He manages the affairs according to a measure; He conducts them according to a well-defined plan of His; He does not delay them from reaching their destined courses out of laziness or laxation, nor does He advance their execution.

Rather, He does everything exactly at its right time, in the best way, as it ought to be. All of this He does without facing hardship which may frustrate His will. Al-Saboor gives you and is true to you even when you are rude to Him. He comes to you forgiving even when you shun Him and revolt against Him.

Al-Saboor does not rush to penalize those who disobey Him or to chastise those who sin. He does not do anything except when it is most opportune due to His wisdom, honour, and sublimity. He is not harmed by those who commit sins. He takes the guilty by the forelocks. Al-Saboor commands and respites those to whom He issues His command; He observes and does not rush, nor does He do anything prematurely.

He commands and His command is according to a certain measure. He cancels the penalty even after it becomes due. Al-Saboor inspires patience and perseverance for all His creatures. The meaning of the Attribute "al-Saboor" is very close to that of the other Attribute "al-aleem". The difference between the first and the latter is that with al-Saboor, nobody can feel safe against His penalty, as is the case with al-aleem.

In Surat Ali-`Imran, the Almighty says, "O you who believe! Be patient, excel in patience, and remain steadfast" (Qur’an, 3:200), that is, be patient while obeying Allah, make your hearts accustomed tolerating affliction in the cause of Allah, and train your innermost conscience to be eager for Allah. It also means: Be patient for the sake of Allah; persevere while seeking Allah's Pleasure; remain in Allah's camp. Patience regarding what Allah decrees is a trial, and patience for the sake of Allah is a hardship, while patience with Allah is loyalty [to Him].

The Messenger of Allah has said, "None is more patient regarding the pain of what he hears than Allah: they ascribe sons to Him even as He grants them good health and sustenance."11

One of the manifestations of a believer's good conduct in deriving a moral code from the inspiration of the Attribute "al-Saboor" is that he keeps in mind its beautiful meanings, so he is patient under all circumstances. One who examines how Allah treats His servants, how He is patient in the face of their rudeness and disobedience, while He keeps giving them one respite after another, will learn how to treat people applying Allah's manners to the best of his ability. 

Whenever patience is repeated by a servant of Allah, it becomes a habit, and he will then be following its guiding light. Such is the status of those who persevere in the sight of Allah, Glory and Praise to Him, as explained in the text of the Holy Qur’an.

We are told that the group of those who were patient will be advanced before others by the token of the verse saying, 

"Those who are patient, and the truthful, and the obedient, and those who spend (benevolently) and those who ask forgiveness in the morning..." (Qur’an, 3:17). 

Thus, such a group will have a higher status than that of other groups of His servants. The Praised One has said, 

"If there are twenty patient ones among you, they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred, they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve" (Qur’an, 8:65).

This is victory with regard to prowess and number granted by Allah whereby He blesses those from among His servants who persevere. 

"Lord! Pour down upon us patience, and make our steps firm, and assist us against the unbelieving people" (Qur’an, 2:250), 

"Lord! Pour upon us patience and cause us to die as Muslims" (Qur’an, 7:126).

1.This

https://www.al-islam.org/allah-the-concept-of-god-in-islam-a-selection-yasin-al-jibouri/ninety-nine-attributes-allah

Additionally, according to the traditions one needs to avoid anthropomorphism. So if waiting implies getting tired or bored (neither sleep nor slumber affect Him as per ayatol kursi) or thinking about doing something (God is all-Knowing) then these are all limitations that don’t apply to Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

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Salam...

This is my understanding.

Time, space and the universe that we witness now through scientific instruments are physical.

I also believe heaven and hell are physical.  Meaning heaven and hell are in the universe now.  Too far from the earth.

Because we are bound by physical laws, we are not able to physically go beyond the earth.  Too slow to travel.

But the souls can travel and not bound by time and space when it depart from the body.

Allahbswt create whatever He wishes...

Wallahualam...

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On 1/18/2021 at 6:25 PM, 313_Waiter said:

Do you believe that God waited to existentiate creation / the universe or do you believe that God was always creating / existentialist creation? If we held the former view then we may have to say God waited “∞-13.77 billion years” to create the universe.

I am more inclined to believe the latter but doesn’t Shiite theology entail the beginning of a creation called the Nur (Light) of Muhammad as the first creation. So I’m not sure how this view of eternal existentiation would hold unless I say the Light of Muhammad is being created this very moment.

Some Sufis and philosophers (like Ibn Sina) held the view there was no beginning to creation. According to a website, the reasons cited include:

https://wmpeople.wm.edu/asset/index/cvance/kalam

Ibn-e-Sina was right because patience is also a creation, when you do not do something actually what you are "waiting" for a purpose, which is also kind of a work. For example: - When you say that lets wait and pause the movie till so and so comes. So, actually you are creating wait. 

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6 hours ago, PureExistence1 said:

Salaam,

Can you please provide the source Al Saboor came from? Id like to research the rest of the 99 Names, in sha Allah.

Thanks!

Salaam I got it from this link:

https://www.al-islam.org/allah-the-concept-of-god-in-islam-a-selection-yasin-al-jibouri/ninety-nine-attributes-allah 
 

I am not sure if our sources directly refer to it though. For your research these ahadith related to the Names will assist you:

https://thaqalayn.net/chapter/14/2/29
https://thaqalayn.net/chapter/1/3/5

https://thaqalayn.net/chapter/1/3/15

Sheikh Farrokh has a course on the Names as well (based on the teachings of Ibn Arabi), the first few videos are free:

https://sekaleshfar.com/courses/analysis-and-introspection-into-the-names-of-allah-complete-series/?tab=tab-curriculum

This is not directly related but May help as well:

https://www.al-islam.org/god-and-his-attributes-sayyid-mujtaba-musavi-lari/lesson-11-incomparability-divine-attributes

https://tasneeminstitute.org/course/god-and-his-attributes/

Also Dua Jaushan Kabir lists 1001 names and attributes of God:

http://www.duas.org/mobile/ramadan-dua-jawshan-kabeer.html.html
https://www.al-islam.org/articles/reflections-dua-jawshan-kabir-mohammad-ali-shomali

 

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This debate between Imam Ridha (عليه السلام) and Imran may shed some light (special thanks to Ashvazdanghe):

Quote
Imran said: "Master, which thing is He?" قال عمران: يا سيدي فأي شيء هو؟
The Imam said: "He is light, namely He guides His creatures from among the people of the heaven and the earth. You have no right against me than my professing His oneness." قال عليه السلام: هو نور بمعنى أنه هادِ خلقه من أهل السماء و أهل الأرض و ليس لك على أكثر من توحيدي إياه.
Imran said: "Master, was He not silent before (creating) the creatures and then He spoke?" قال عمران: يا سيدي أليس قد كان ساكتاً قبل الخلق لا ينطق ثم نطق؟
The Imam said: "Silence is not except out of utterance before it. An example of that it is not said that the lamp is silent and does not utter; nor is it said that the lamp shines, so what does it want to do toward us, for light is from the lamp, not out of an act or make from it; it is not a thing other than it. When it shines for us, we say: ‘It has shined for us, so that we may seek light through it.’ In this manner you can understand your affair." قال الرضا عليه السلام: لا يكون السكوت إلا عن نطق قبله و المثل في ذلك أنه لا يقال للسراج: هو ساكت لا ينطق، و لا يقال: إن السراج ليضيء، فيما يريد أن يفعل بنا؛ لأنّ الضوء من السراج ليس بفعل منه، و لا كون، و إنّما هو ليس شيء غيره، فلما استضاء لنا قلنا: قد أضاء لنا حتى استضاءنا به، فبهذا تستبصر أمرك.
He said: "Master, the knowledge I have says that the Being is changed in His essence by His action of creating." قال عمران : يا سيدي، فإن الذي كان عندي أن الكائن قد تغير في فعله عن حاله بخلقه الخلق .
The Imam said: "Imran, does your statement mean that the being does not in any way change its essence except when it affects its own essence in a way which changes it? Can you say that the fire changes its own nature, or that the heat burns itself, or have you seen anyone seeing his own vision?" قال الرضا عليه السلام : أحلت ـ يا عمران ـ في قولك: إن الكائن يتغير في وجه من الوجوه حتى يصيب الذات منه ما يغيره ـ يا عمران ـ هل تجد النار تغيرها تغير نفسها؟ و هل تجد الحرارة تحرق نفسها؟ أو هل رأيت بصيرا قط رأى بصره؟
Imran said: ... Is He in the creatures or are the creatures in Him?" قال عمران: لم أر هذا إلا أن تخبرني يا سيدي أهو في الخلق؟ أم الخلق فيه؟
The Imam said: "He is above all that, Imran. He is not in the creatures; nor are the creatures in Him; He is exalted above that. I will teach you what you do not know, and there is no strength except in Allah. Tell me about the mirror: are you in it or is it in you? If neither one of you is in the other, then how did you come to see your own reflection in it, Imran?" قال الرضا عليه السلام : أجل ـ يا عمران ـ عن ذلك ليس هو في الخلق و لا الخلق فيه تعالى عن ذلك، و ساء علمك، ما تعرفه و لا قوة إلا بالله. أخبرني عن المرآة أنت فيها أم هي فيك؟ فإن كان ليس واحد منكما في صاحبه فبأي شيء استدللت بها على نفسك ـ يا عمران ـ .
He said: "Through the light between myself and it?" قال: بضوء بيني و بينها.
The Imam said: "Can you see of that light more than what you can see with your own eyes?" قال الرضا عليه السلام: هل ترى من ذلك الضوء في المرآة أكثر مما تراه في عينك؟
He said: Yes. قال: نعم.
The Imam said: "Then show it to us," قال الرضا عليه السلام: فأرناه.
Imran kept silent. فلم يحر جوابا.
The Imam said: "I do not see the light except leading you and the mirror to come to know each other without being in either one of you. There are many such examples which the ignorant simply cannot observe, and the greatest example belongs to Allah." قال عليه السلام: فلا أرى النور إلا و قد دلك و دل المرآة على أنفسكما من غير أن يكون في واحد منكما، ولهذا أمثال كثيرة غير هذا لا يجد الجاهل فيها مقالاً، ﴿وَلِلَّهِ الْمَثَلُ الأعْلَى﴾.
The he turned to al-Ma'mun and said to him: "(The time of) the prayer has just come." ثم التفت إلى المأمون فقال: الصلاة قد حضرت.
Imran said: "Master, do not interrupt my questions, for my heart has sympathized (with you)." فقال عمران: يا سيدي، لا تقطع علي مسألتي فقد رق قلبي.
The Imam said: We say prayer and return. قال الرضا عليه السلام: نُصلي و نعود.
... The Imam said: "Imran, question me." فنهض عليه السلام و نهض المأمون، فصلّى الرضاعليه السلام داخلاً... فعاد الرضا عليه السلام إلى مجلسه و دعا بعمران، فقال: سل يا عمران.
He said: ... قال: يا سيدي، ألا تخبرني عن الله عزوجل هل يوحّد بحقيقه أو يوحّد بوصف؟
The Imam said: Verily, Allah is the Originator, the One, the First Being. He has always been One. There is nothing with Him. He is single without a second with Him. He is neither known (i.e. in His reality) nor unknown nor clear nor ambiguous nor remembered nor forgotten nor a thing to which the title of a thing is applied nor from a time He was nor to a time He will be nor on a thing He stood nor on a thing He stands nor on a thing He depends nor in a thing He is hidden. All that was before the creation. As for the whole you have applied to Him, it was attributes which appeared later, and translation through which understands he who understands. قال الرضا عليه السلام: إن الله المبدئ، الواحد، الكائن، الأول لم يزل واحدا لا شيء معه، فرداً لا ثاني معه، لا معلوماً و لا مجهولاً و لا محكماً و لا متشابهاً، و لا مذكورا و لا منسياً، و لا شيئاً يقع عليه اسم شيء من الأشياء غيره، ولا من وقت كان و لا إلى وقت يكون، و لا بشيء قام و لا إلى شيء يقوم، و لا إلى شيء استند، و لا في شيء استكن، و ذلك كله قبل الخلق إذ لا شيء غيره، و ما أوقعت عليه من الكل فهي صفات محدثة، و ترجمة يفهم بها من فهم.

Full debate can be found here: https://en.wikishia.net/view/Text:Imam_al-Rida's_(a)_Debate_with_Imran_al-Sabi
 

I don’t quite understand what the Imam (عليه السلام) is saying so please share your thoughts.

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On 2/12/2021 at 2:14 PM, 313_Waiter said:

Salam

Please show me the verse.

Ok I need to apologise as I can't find the explicit translation of the word "nothing" in Nahjul balagah. 

I found the hadith where imam answers some Jews and explicitly states nothing. But not sure about authenticity.

Now I remember encountering it in a lecture from Sheikh Farrokh or Sheikh Shomali. Where they state Imam explicitly says "nothing" but then go onto explain why he didn't actually mean nothing ( I disagree with the explination)

I did attempt to find the video but was unsuccessful. Due to the large number of lectures I gave up on trying to find the refferance.

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1 hour ago, Ali bin Hussein said:

I did attempt to find the video but was unsuccessful. Due to the large number of lectures I gave up on trying to find the refferance

Thanks for trying brother, no worries about that and sorry for using your time.

My point is that “nothing comes from nothing”, and so it must be something that God creates from (whether that is His Power, Will, or a manifestation of His attributes..). I think this is self-evident.

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1 hour ago, 313_Waiter said:

Thanks for trying brother, no worries about that and sorry for using your time.

My point is that “nothing comes from nothing”, and so it must be something that God creates from (whether that is His Power, Will, or a manifestation of His attributes..). I think this is self-evident.

I think alot of the difference arise from language. When we say nothing normally its from a material world point of view. Eg  scientifically absence of energy/ matter/ space
Otherwise it's a very abstract term and therefore using thing is pointless as Allah is not a "thing"
Here is just a simple Google search if the definition of thing. Mist common in English language is a material thing.
So if we define thing trying not to be abstract then no-thing is very possible 
 
Some common definition of thing
1: an object or entity not precisely designated or capable of being designateduse this thing
2a: an inanimate object distinguished from a living being
b: a separate and distinct individual quality, fact, idea, or usually entity
c: the concrete entity as distinguished from its appearances
d: a spatial entity
Edited by Ali bin Hussein
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On 2/13/2021 at 1:50 PM, 313_Waiter said:

Also this lecture: 

 

 

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