Did Iblees commit shirk by refusing to bow to Adam (عليه السلام)? What is the deeper meaning of shirk?

[313_Waiter 1,205]

I was under the impression that all sins are rooted in shirk (either concealed shirk or manifest shirk). I also believed that most of us are mushrik based on this verse:

Quote

“And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him).” (Surah Yūsuf 12:106)

For example, a lot of us use Allah as a means and not as an end, we want to worship Allah so that we can go to heaven, this would be defined as concealed shirk, though it does not mean that we would necessarily be deprived of heaven for doing this. This is what I heard from Dr Farrokh Sekaleshfar here. 

 

Similarly, I also assumed that Iblees's refusal to bow to Adam was a form of shirk.

Quote

Have you seen him who has taken his desire to be his god and whom Allah has led astray knowingly, and set a seal upon his hearing and his heart, and put a blindfold on his sight?So who will guide him after Allah? Will you not then take admonition? (45:23)

 

However, I am met with the following narrations that indicate it was not shirk but that it was rather kufr.  Could it be that the blessed Imam (عليه السلام) is referring to manifest shirk and not concealed shirk?

Quote

A number of our companions, from Sahl Bin Ziyad, from Ali Bin Asbat, from Musa Bin Bukeyr who said,

‘I asked Abu Al-Hassan (عليه السلام) about the disbelief (Kufr) and the association (Shirk), which of the two was earlier?’ So he (عليه السلام) said to me: ‘I (عليه السلام) have not agreed with you to debate with the people’. I said, ‘Hisham Bin Salim instructed me that I ask you (عليه السلام) about that’. So he (عليه السلام) said to me: ‘The disbelief (Kufr) occurred earlier and it is the denial. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Mighty and Majestic Said except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant, and he was one of the unbelievers [2:34]’.

Source: Al Kafi V 2 – The Book Of Belief and Disbelief CH 165 H 6

 

And from him (Al Kulayni), from Ali Bin Ibrahim, from Haroun Bin Muslim, from Mas’ada Bin Sadaqa who said, 

‘I heard Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) and he (عليه السلام) had been asked about the disbelief (Kufr) and the Polytheism (Shirk), which one of these two preceded the other?’ So he (عليه السلام) said: ‘The disbelief proceeded, and that is because Iblees was the first one to disbelieve. And his disbelief was without Polytheism, because he did not call to the worship of anyone other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). But rather, he called to that afterwards, so he associated’.

Source: Al Kafi 2:8/284

 

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

11 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

 

I was under the impression that all sins are rooted in shirk 

 

 

I am a layman, so i can't get in to Technical stuff/Literal meanings, I can understand Concepts.

This entity Worshiped, Recognize his Creator, The Judge and day of Judgement.  

This entity wanted a Direct path to Allah(عزّ وجلّ) , While Allah(عزّ وجلّ) Ordained HIS(عزّ وجلّ) True Approach/Worship/Recognition Through HIS(عزّ وجلّ) Representative. All other aspects of Worship/Believing in One and Only Creator, The Ultimate Judge, and Belief in the day of Judgement did not help this entity. He denied the Waseela. My layman understanding.

Read here/link below. 

Quote

..أَنْظِرْنِي إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ يُبْعَثُونَ

“…Respite me until the day when they are raised up (7:14)”.

So, Iblis had neither any defect in the principle of belief in Allah’s being the Creator, or in belief in Allah’s Lordship in creation and nor in belief in ma’ad. But still he falls so much! Why? Because he does not believe in Allah’s Lordship in Law-giving (Divine legislation) and docs not regard Allah’s command to be obeyed unquestionably, unless Allah’s command would be consistent with (Ibis’s) own thought and desire." 2

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235034818-a-dialogue-on-your-understanding-of-shirk/?tab=comments#comment-2879294

[Mahdavist 3,851]

Wa alaikum as salam wa rahmatullah

Iblees disobeyed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). The hadith you have presented indicates his kufr, and even more so the Qur'an itself states this for instance in verse 34 of suratul baqarah. 

I believe the idea that Dr Farrokh and others are referring to is that there are various levels of shirk. While one might not actively associate anything or anyone with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), by disobeying Him we have preferred or opted for a command or a desire over that which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded or desired for us. I imagine in this sense, they are saying that this too is a form of shirk. 

[Dave follower of The Way 279]

Yes I too see all sins rooted in shirk - putting something in the place of God.  I think that is what Iblis did.  He put his own ideas and ultimatly himself (pride) in the place of God's ideas and God's preeminance.

Isn't this the problem we all have?  I put my own plans and Ideas first and act on them without consulting God.  I try to live my life pleasing myself making myself comfortable without thinking about how God wants me to live and spend my money and time.  Often even our religious practices are shallow and self centred ritual, hoping others will see us.

As a follower of Jesus, I think about stories and teaching he gave. 

Two men went to pray one a religious leader and the other a corrupt offical.  The religious man prayed at the front and said "Thank you God that I carry out my religious duties and that I live a good life - not cheeting or looking at women - and that I'm not like the corrupt official over there."  The offical on the other hand knelt at the back and beat on his chest. "God be merciful to me a sinner" was all he could say.  At the end of the story Jesus the Messiah said "It was the offical that God listened to rather than the Religious man - for those who lift themselves up will be put down and those who humble themselves will be lifted up"

I wonder if the religious man was guilty of shirk?  He was proud of his own acts even though they were religious.  He put himself and his self righteiousness before God's desires of a humble heart.

[Ali bin Hussein 982]

In Zaidi madhab shirk us quite clear cut.

An sinner or disobedient one is not considered a mushrik or Kafir.

This following verse is often used to expand on the concept of shirk:

Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire" (Surat al-Jathiyah 45:23)

 

But according to Zaidiyya the Ahlulbayt have made no association of this verse with shirk.

Sharia law of this dunya can not apply to shirk.

As Shaiytan came from a position of firm belief and knowledge. 

The hypocrites are] like the example of Satan when he says to man, "Disbelieve." But when he disbelieves, he says, "Indeed, I am disassociated from you. Indeed, I fear Allah , Lord of the worlds." 59;16

So his disobedience is greater.

(Iblis/Satan) said: “O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised.” (God) said: “Respite is granted thee till the Day of the Time appointed.” (Iblis) said: “O my Lord! Because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong, Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace).” (God) said: “This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me. For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee.” (15: 36–42)

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9 by Warilla

[layman 999]

Salam,

Not allowing Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to put His Holy Names in the self is shirk.

Adam and Angels accepted it.  Ibless prevented it because of arrogance, he didn't like the method of putting the Holy Names through Adam.  Iblees wanted Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to put himself as the mean to The Holy Names.

If we purposely don't put Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Holy Names in our inner self, we are performing shirk because we are arrogance.

If we cover up Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Holy Names in our inner self, that is a kufr.

If we doesn't allow  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Holy Names to rule and dictate our daily actions, that is called "zulum tu nafsi".

Not putting Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Holy Names in our inner self due to arrogance is Satanic.  We create syaitan in us.  Syaitan is a symbol of total shirk.

That is the reason we say " Aauuzibillahi minassyaitani rajeem".  We put Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Holy Names first in the inner self to ward off syaitan from the self.  We have to do it frequently.  

Wallahualam...

 

[Nightclaw 471]

16 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

was under the impression that all sins are rooted in shirk (either concealed shirk or manifest shirk). I also believed that most of us are mushrik based on this verse:

No. Not all of us are مشركين. There is a difference between major and minor شرك. See here.

 

[Nightclaw 471]

7 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Yes I too see all sins rooted in shirk - putting something in the place of God.  I think that is what Iblis did.  He put his own ideas and ultimatly himself (pride) in the place of God's ideas and God's preeminance.

No. There is a difference between كفر and شرك. Iblīs did an act of arrogance and disbelief. It wasn't associating partners. He's not stupid enough to do that because he himself knows Allah is One. 

[313_Waiter 1,205]

24 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

No. Not all of us are مشركين. There is a difference between major and minor شرك. See here.

 

Thanks. I have heard shias use this distinction as well. Not sure what the hadiths say on this matter of major and minor shirk. So in a sense Iblis has taken his desires as god right?

 

Edited January 10 by 313_Waiter

[Eddie Mecca 244]

Iblis introduced shirk much much later on as human civilization became more complex and grew in size...Iblis' initial crime was pride, arrogance, essential or elemental racialism and misuse of  al-‘āqīl (i.e. intellect, reasoning)...also, Iblis is described as a kafir in the Qurʼān...according to our Ismāʿīli brethren Iblis was an extremely learned creature and acquired the knowledge equivalent to having read 360 million books...but his intellect was warped and one-eyed and hence incapable of penetrative spiritual insight and depth perception.

Edited January 10 by Eddie Mecca

[Nightclaw 471]

28 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Thanks. I have heard shias use this distinction as well. Not sure what the hadiths say on this matter of major and minor shirk. So in a sense Iblis has taken his desires as god right?

 

No. Iblīs was arrogant and prideful, leading to disbelief. He cannot and doesn't commit shirk. He lets other people do that. He himself is well aware of Allah and His Oneness. He disobeyed Allah, which meant he committed an act of disbelief. When Allah cursed him, he still said "O My Lord", acknowledging Allah. 

[313_Waiter 1,205]

3 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

one-eyed and hence incapable of penetrative spiritual insight and depth perception.

Reminds me of the Dajjal and The Great Reset.

[Zainuu 1,396]

23 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

I was under the impression that all sins are rooted in shirk (either concealed shirk or manifest shirk). I also believed that most of us are mushrik based on this verse:

For example, a lot of us use Allah as a means and not as an end, we want to worship Allah so that we can go to heaven, this would be defined as concealed shirk, though it does not mean that we would necessarily be deprived of heaven for doing this. This is what I heard from Dr Farrokh Sekaleshfar here. 

 

Similarly, I also assumed that Iblees's refusal to bow to Adam was a form of shirk.

 

However, I am met with the following narrations that indicate it was not shirk but that it was rather kufr.  Could it be that the blessed Imam (عليه السلام) is referring to manifest shirk and not concealed shirk?

 

Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) disobedience comes with the obedience of something/some entity/some being. So, Dr. Farrokh might be saying something like this. In that way, we can also call atheism as a form of shirk. Because denial of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and the idea of God is impossible. So, it will definitely bring a substitute. Thus, placing someone/some idea/some entity/some phenomenon in place of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Hence, shirk.

But, what Iblis committed was kufr in direct sense and not shirk. The Hadith seems clear to me for that and aligned with Quranic verses.

[313_Waiter 1,205]

4 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) disobedience comes with the obedience of something/some entity/some being. So, Dr. Farrokh might be saying something like this. In that way, we can also call atheism as a form of shirk. Because denial of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and the idea of God is impossible. So, it will definitely bring a substitute. Thus, placing someone/some idea/some entity/some phenomenon in place of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Hence, shirk.

I heard an Islamic philosopher (Firas Zahabi) once say that Richard Dawkins believes in many gods! One of his gods is randomness, but in reality there is no thing that is random (there is a chain of causes).

4 hours ago, Zainuu said:

But, what Iblis committed was kufr in direct sense and not shirk. The Hadith seems clear to me for that and aligned with Quranic verses.

So you agree that it is concealed shirk but not shirk in the direct sense? Because Iblis is preferring his desires over God like in Quran 45:23. I wonder which shirk is unforgivable and whether the Ahlulbayt made this classification of minor and major shirk like Nightclaw has made above^.

Edited January 10 by 313_Waiter

[Zainuu 1,396]

1 hour ago, 313_Waiter said:

heard an Islamic philosopher (Firas Zahabi) once say that Richard Dawkins believes in many gods! One of his gods is randomness, but in reality there is no thing that is random (there is a chain of causes).

No. I don't know what an athiest believes in. But in my opinion, Atheism cannot exist because the idea of god is in the fitrah of human being. It is a bit paradoxical. 

*LA ILAHA ILLALLAH* - We reject all gods and then we admit Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to be our lord. Both are interrelated.

For example Richard dawkins might say:

*LA ILAHA* - I reject all gods. But then his fitrah will definitely settle with one god.

Once my physics teacher in school said,"Atheism has prevailed where scientific advancement took place (though I disagree). For them, Nature is God."

He was just trying to make a point that scientists reject religions and all gods and no one is god for them. But his assertion compeled him to say,"Nature is god for them".

So, these were just examples to make a point. Atheism is impossible. So, atheists are mushrik but they don't know about it. I won't say polytheists but definitely mushrik.

1 hour ago, 313_Waiter said:

So you agree that it is concealed shirk but not shirk in the direct sense? Because Iblis is preferring his desires over God like in Quran 45:23. I wonder which shirk is unforgivable and whether the Ahlulbayt made this classification of minor and major shirk like Nightclaw has made above^.

'Concealed shirk' is just a coined term to make it understandable. We pray to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). How many times we forget Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and fall in love with this world? It all happens in fitrah. As he said,"We avoid doing charity and giving and if someone says that we will get something in return we rejoice."

This form of shirk in my opinion is forgivable. It is a sin of mind. Sins of mind and heart are forgiven.

Coming to Iblis. Look, Kufr is not separate from shirk. Kufr is 'denial of clear signs' (I heard this from agha Panahian) and as hadith says that it is denial.

What I understand from the above hadith is what I said about atheism.

Denial (Kufr) precedes association (shirk).

Let us look at the verses:

2:34) And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

(37) He said: So surely you are of the respited ones
(38) Till the period of the time made known.
(39) He said: My Lord! because Thou hast made life evil to me, I will certainly make (evil) fair-seeming to them on earth, and I will certainly cause them all to deviate
(40) Except Thy servants from among them, the devoted ones.

 

In 2:34, Iblis is classified as a disbeliever/unbeliever/Kafir.

While, in 15:31, Iblis says 'My Lord' (Rabbi):

So, Iblis is a denier and disobedient. He knows that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the lord of the worlds and he knows the signs. But he still denies.

From enlightening commentary:

Quote

The cause of his blasphemy was also that he considered the wise command of Allah rather inappropriate. He not only disobeyed practically, but also protested theoretically. Thus, his pride and self-conceit annulled a life-time of his worshipping and rendered it worthless! Beware; pride has many effects of 'this kind'!

As about the verses of surah al Hijr verse 39, Tafsir says:

Quote

 

39. “(’Iblis) said: ‘O’ Lord! because You have left me to stray, certainly I will adorn (evil) to them on the earth, and certainly I will cause them all to go astray’.”
40. “Except Your chosen servants among them.”

Here we find ’Iblis revealed and exposed his true hidden intention, though nothing was hidden from Him, when ’Iblis answered Allah implying that He refused him and it was this ‘man’ who paved the ground for his misfortunes, ’Iblis should be engaged from then on in attracting them to the material blessings of this world by decorating and vanishing them, thus seeking to make them engaged in them.

Therefore, ultimately, he would cause them all to be misled.

The verse says:

“(’Iblis) said: ‘O’ Lord! because You have left me to stray, certainly I will adorn (evil) to them on the earth, and certainly I will cause them all to go astray’.”

Nevertheless, he knew well that his mischief would never leave any impact on the devotee servants of Allah.

Therefore, he soon made an exception to his saying, and said:

“Except Your chosen servants among them.”

These are those who have attained the highest levels of Faith and practice which have been brought about after going through a thorough educational curriculum and struggle against their ‘egotistic selves’.

There are two points raised in here which are worth mentioning:

Allah never leads anyone astray. However, if someone seeks willingly to accept the deviant path, Allah may leave him alone. This abandoning is the utmost case of the Divine punishment and outrage. As ’Iblis also willingly selected the path of arrogance and obstinacy, Allah left him to his own means.

Then the objective in saying /’aqwaytani/ (you have left me to stray) is meant in the same sense. That is, now that You no longer locate me within the reach of Your blessings and You left me alone to my own devices for the sake of my obstinate behavior, I will then do this and that.

’Iblis knows that a group of people are among the Divine selected ones. (That is, he has also accepted the legitimacy of ‘Prophethood’ and ‘Imamate’ as one can conclude from the clause:

“O’ Lord! because You have left me to stray”

that he has also accepted Allah. And as one also concludes from his prayer to be given a second chance “…till the day when they are raised”, he has also accepted the principle of Resurrection.

Therefore, ’Iblis was right in his ideological principles. However, his main fault was his arrogance and his not having a spirit of submission and servitude.

Thus, it is not enough to embrace merely the Faith and to have knowledge of something; but also practice, submission to the Will of Allah, and servitude are necessary.

 

So, Iblis knew all the principles. He knew the right and wrong and he knew he was wrong. But he denied them and therefore revealed himself as a clear cut denier.

As of verse 45:23, It is not speaking about Iblis as he didn't prefer his desires over Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). He is just arrogant that he is better than Adam (عليه السلام). It cannot qualify as a desire. His desire so far appears : To prove that man is indeed inferior to him. 

He was in Kufr and now to understand his shirk, what is he following? 

His own whims right? So, it is a sort of shirk in indirect way or 'concealed shirk'. But this was not his major unforgivable sin. But this was a succession to his major sins. 

Rest Allah knows the best and the ones to whom he grants knowledge.

[313_Waiter 1,205]

On 1/11/2021 at 2:35 AM, Zainuu said:

'Concealed shirk' is just a coined term to make it understandable. We pray to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). How many times we forget Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and fall in love with this world? It all happens in fitrah. As he said,"We avoid doing charity and giving and if someone says that we will get something in return we rejoice."

This form of shirk in my opinion is forgivable. It is a sin of mind. Sins of mind and heart are forgiven.

Salam, thanks for this very detailed response brother. May Allah bless you for your efforts.

My question is, if we say "I think vishnu and shiva are Allah" (nauzubillah) isn't this a sin of the mind as well, so will it be forgivable?

[313_Waiter 1,205]

Sheikh Mohammad al-Musawi had this response to my question (there are no other responses):

Quote

Polytheism شرك is to worship with Allah some one or something else. Those who did polytheism in the past then left it and became Muslims will be forgiven because they have left polytheism, but those who insisted on polytheism and died  with it, will not be forgiven as you read in (Quran 4:48).

Wassalam.

https://www.al-islam.org/ask/the-quran-mentions-various-forms-of-polytheism-in-verses-4-48-10-31-2-9-31-25-4-which-type-of-shirk-is-unforgivable

Ok. So if we "worship" things with Allah/ God/ Pure Existence, but in our last breath we repent to God, this would mean we are saved. Still is not clear if "worship" is referring to manifest shirk or hidden shirk, because hidden shirk (obedience to other than Allah, including your own wishes) can also mean worshipping other than Allah:

Quote

Ali Bin Ibrahim said, ‘Ahmad Bin Idrees informed us, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Ali Bin Al Hakam, from Musa Bin Bakr, from Al Fazeyl,

(It has been narrated) from Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) regarding the Words of the Exalted: And most of them do not believe in Allah except and they are associating [12:106]. He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Association (Shirk) of obedience, and it is not association (Shirk) of worship. And the disobedience which you are committing, so it is the association (Shirk) of obedience. Satan (la) comes during it, thus you end up associating with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) the obedience of someone else. And it is not the association (Shirk) of worship, but (it’s the obedience, which is similar to) you are worshipping other than Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))’.

https://hubeali.com/books/English-Books/TafseerHub-e-Ali/CH12_SuraYusuf_Verses67-111.pdf 

Tafsir Qummi 1:358

It is so sad that I do not fully understand the most fundamental topic in Islam 

Edited January 15 by 313_Waiter

[313_Waiter 1,205]

 everyone, 

In trying to understand which shirk is unforgivable, I have read a number of tafsirs. 

Allah says in the Qur'an 

Quote

“Truly God forgives not that any partner be ascribed unto Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whomsoever He will, for whosoever ascribes partners unto God has surely fabricated a tremendous sin.” (4:48)

 

The Study Qur’an deliniates the types of shirk that can be included in this, based on its exegesis of this verse:

Quote

 

“The sin of shirk, ascribing partners to God in worship or in His role as Creator, is considered to be the only sin God will not forgive (see also v. 116). Although this term is often associated with idolatry in the crass form of worshipping humanly constructed idols—and indeed mushrikūn, the active participle from the same root, is often translated “idolaters”—it can also refer to those who worship human authorities, false deities, angels (see 17:40c; 53:26–27), jinn (6:100; 34:41), or natural phenomena (6:76–78) as having independent influence and authority over the world or human destiny. The sin of shirk could also be broadened to include subtler ways of setting up “equals” with God, such as loving or fearing anything but God. The present verse compelled many to examine their own hearts and excise all such forms of “hidden shirk” (Aj, Qu).

Some say that this verse was revealed, in part, to clarify the assertion in 39:53 that God forgives all sins, making an exception for shirk (Ṭ). However, the possibility of forgiveness for shirk is precluded only for one who dies unrepentant (Z; see 67:10–11c). The verse does not guarantee forgiveness for sins other than shirk, but allows for its possibility (Ṭ). ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib reportedly said that this verse gave him the greatest hope (Q), and Ibn ʿAbbās considered it one of the eight most important verses about forgiveness (see 4:26–28c).”

Commentator Key:

Aj = Aḥmad ibn ʿAjībah (d. 1224/1809)

Qu = Abu’l-Qāsim al-Qushayrī (d. 465/1072)

Ṭ = Muḥammad ibn Jarīr al-Ṭabarī (d. 310/923)

Z = Abu’l-Qāsim Maḥmūd ibn ʿUmar al-Zamakhsharī (d. 538/1144)

Q = Abū ʿAbd Allāh Muḥammad ibn Aḥmad al-Qurṭubī

 

This hadith seems to indicate that the formation of an opinion (رأيا) is tantamount to shirk:

Quote

 

عن أبِ العباس، قال: سألت أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام) عن أدنى ما يكون به الْنسان مشركا. قال: «من ابتدع رأيا فأحب عليه أو أبغُ». 

‘I asked Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) about the least with what the human would happen to be a Polytheist (Mushrik) with’. He (عليه السلام) said: ‘The one who begins (forms) an opinion, so he loves upon it or hates (upon it)’.

Tafseer Ayyashi - 150 /246 :1

 

Another hadith extends the definition of shirk to deny the Wilayah of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)), but I am not exactly sure of the esoteric meanings of wilayah (Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) may represent the Logos or al-insan al-kamil, thus extending salvation to anyone who follows the "guardianship" of this perfect creation or moving in the direction of Perfection; Allahu A'lam):

Quote

 

Al Ayyashi, from Jabir, from Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) having said: ‘As for His (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Words Allah does not Forgive if He is associated with [4:48] - i.e. He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does not Forgive the one who denies the Wilayah of Ali (عليه السلام) . 

And as for His (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Words and He Forgives whatever is besides that to the one He so Desires to [4:48] – i.e., (Forgives) the one who has the Wilayah of Ali  (عليه السلام)’.

Tafseer al Ayyashi  - 149 /245 :1

 

 

Finally, this hadith from Tafsir al Ayyashi seems to say that the unforgivable shirk is referring to manifest polytheism or in arabic “الشرك البين”, in this case the concealed polytheism or hidden shirk referred to in The Study Qur’an will not apply:
 

Quote

 

Al Ayyashi, from Zarara who said, ‘I wrote to Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) along with one of our companions regarding what the people were reporting from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as having said: ‘The one who associates with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) , so the Fire is Obligated upon him, and the one who does not associate with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), so the Paradise is Obligated upon him’.

He (عليه السلام) said: ‘But as for the one who associates with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), so this is the manifest Polytheism, and these are the Words of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) It is such that the one who associates with Allah, so Allah would Prohibited the Paradise unto him [5:72]’. 

And as for his (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) words: ‘The one who does not associate with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), so the Paradise is Obligated upon him’ – Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) said: ‘This is where consideration is required. It is the one who did not disobey Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))’.

Tafsir al Ayyashi 1: 158 /335 

 

Sources with arabic: https://hubeali.com/books/English-Books/TafseerHub-e-Ali/CH5_SuraAlMaida_Verses45-76.pdf (see v 5:72)

https://hubeali.com/books/English-Books/TafseerHub-e-Ali/CH4_SuraNisaa_Verses42-68.pdf (see v 4:48)

 

So we can conclude that manifest shirk is unforgivable but hidden shirk is forgivable. But what exactly differentiates hidden shirk from manifest shirk? Riya' (showing off), obedience to other than Allah, and Shirk by ignoring that all happen is through the Will of Allah, may be defined as hidden shirk as per this article. But then this leads to all sorts of contradictions!

 

If we say Riya' is forgivable (if unrepented), what about this hadith:

Quote

The Holy Prophet Muhammad (S) was asked: ‘How could one obtain the salvation of the Day of Judgement?’ He (S) answered: “Salvation is that you should not try to deceive Allah; lest He should return your deception to you; for anyone who tries to cheat Allah, will he cheated by Him and He will take the faith away from him. In this case man deceives his own self, and he does not know.”

He (S) was asked again: ‘How does a man try to deceive Allah?’ He (S) answered: “A person performs what Allah has ordered him, but he is concerned about other than Him”.

“Fear Allah in showing off; because it is a kind of shirk (polytheism). On the Day of Judgement he who shows off will be called with four names: O wicked, O disbeliever, O deceitful, O loser, your work came to nothing and your reward was lost. No salvation awaits you. Go and ask the one for whom you have worked for salvation.”

https://www.al-islam.org/living-right-way-ayatullah-jawad-tehraani/avoiding-hidden-shirk-polytheism

If we say Shirk through obedience to other than Allah is forgivable, where we define it as per the Qur'an:

Quote

Allah the Most High said: “And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him).”(12:106) [It means that, they, in spite of their religious faith, obey Satan].

He also said: “And they have taken gods besides Allah that they should be to them a source of strength. By no means! They shall soon deny their worshipping them, and they shall be adversaries to them.”(19:81-82)

He also said: “They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah.”(9:31)

He also said: “Have you seen him who takes his low desires for his god?”(25:43)

He also said: “Say: ‘O followers of the Book, come to an equitable proposition between us and you that we shall not serve any but Allah and (that) we shall not associate aught with Him, and (that) some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah;’ but if they turn back, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims.”

He also said: “Did I not charge you, O children of Adam, that you should not serve Satan? Surely he is your open enemy. And that you should serve Me; this is the right way.”

https://www.al-islam.org/living-right-way-ayatullah-jawad-tehraani/avoiding-hidden-shirk-polytheism

This would contradict the above 2nd hadith ^^^ which said that denying the wilayah of Ali ((عليه السلام)) is tantamount to unforgivable shirk (as per Quran 4:48). It would also allow that Iblees's sin is forgivable, for he merely took his "low desires" as his god, where he did not want to bow to Adam and disregarded the desires of His Rabb.

Furthermore, if we take Al-Rāzī's opinion of Quran 4:48 (and similar views in the Shiite discourse), then this would mean shirk by obedience to other than Allah (which may seem to be hidden shirk) is also unforgivable:

Quote

Some have seen this verse as a continuation of the warning issued to the Madinan Jews in v. 47 and even claim that it indicates that Jews can be considered mushrikūn, although this has never represented the general opinion among Muslim scholars. Nonetheless al-Rāzī argues syllogistically that since v. 47 warns that the Jews’ failure to believe in the message of the Quran will bring certain punishment, this failure to believe is de facto an “unforgivable sin”; since the only unforgivable sin is shirk, their failure to believe in the Quran is tantamount to shirk. However, this interpretation collapses the categories of shirk and kufr into one, whereas the two are distinct in the Quran and Islamic Law.

-The Study Qur'an

 

So in short, I am quite confused.

 

Edited January 15 by 313_Waiter

[313_Waiter 1,205]

According to brother @Qa'im

[Zainuu 1,396]

7 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

My question is, if we say "I think vishnu and shiva are Allah" (nauzubillah) isn't this a sin of the mind as well, so will it be forgivable?

It is not forgivable because the sentence indicates that one has established this thought as a reality in his mind and submitted to it atleast within the heart. Now, if he mixes this with his faith but doesn't bring that in action, he is a hypocrite and hypocrisy is the worst of three types of Kufr. 

Sin of Mind actually constitutes doubts, Temptations, lust, bad thoughts etc. To have a clear distinction of this from open shirk or hidden shirk if a thought passes by the mind which is "vishnu and shiva are Allah" (just a quick random thought. Such that the man is ashamed of himself or says astaghfirullah as a habit or just ignores it within). It will be called a 'sin of mind'. It is forgiven there and then only. Through some more research I see that iblis was not committing something in sense of 'sin of mind'. 

I will provide more details on this in sometime.

 

[313_Waiter 1,205]

32 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

It is not forgivable because the sentence indicates that one has established this thought as a reality in his mind and submitted to it atleast within the heart. Now, if he mixes this with his faith but doesn't bring that in action, he is a hypocrite and hypocrisy is the worst of three types of Kufr. 

Sin of Mind actually constitutes doubts, Temptations, lust, bad thoughts etc. To have a clear distinction of this from open shirk or hidden shirk if a thought passes by the mind which is "vishnu and shiva are Allah" (just a quick random thought. Such that the man is ashamed of himself or says astaghfirullah as a habit or just ignores it within). It will be called a 'sin of mind'. It is forgiven there and then only. Through some more research I see that iblis was not committing something in sense of 'sin of mind'. 

 

Salam,
Thanks brother, this is quite profound. So if one submits to shirk in one’s heart (and dies in this state) then one can be punished. Is there any hadiths for this (sorry I have been quite stuck on this topic)?

Thanks.

[Zainuu 1,396]

1 hour ago, 313_Waiter said:

So if one submits to shirk in one’s heart (and dies in this state) then one can be punished. Is there any hadiths for this (sorry I have been quite stuck on this topic)?

 

Quote

 

Hidden Shirk in the Praise of the Creature

“And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him).” (Surah Yūsuf 12:106)

While explaining this verse, Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) informed that one form of Shirk is,

“Like the saying of someone that if so and so had not been there I would have been destroyed. If so and so had not been there I would have got that thing. In the same way is to say that if so and so had not been there my children would have perished.”8

Such utterances signify the type of belief the speaker possesses. If he really has such a belief then he is surely a polytheists (mushrik). After this Imam ((عليه السلام).) said,

“If one says, ‘If Allah had not helped me through such and such person I would have perished,’ there is no harm in it.” In fact this is the essence of Tawhid.

Hazrat Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) and the Thankful Beggar

Masma bin Abdul Malik relates that Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) was at Mina (in Makkah) when a beggar approached him. Imam ((عليه السلام).) ordered that a bunch of grapes be given to him. The beggar said, “I do not need these, if possible give me money.” Imam ((عليه السلام).) did not give him anything but said, “May Allah make you self-sufficient.” After this another beggar approached. Imam ((عليه السلام).) picked up three grapes from the bunch and offered them to him. The beggar picked them up and said, “All Praise is for Allah (only) who has given me sustenance.” Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, “Wait”, and he placed as many grapes as his hands could hold. Twice again he gave him the same quantity. The beggar thanked Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).) again. Imam ((عليه السلام).) again stopped him and asked his slave how much money he had.

The slave replied, “Twenty dirhams.” Imam ((عليه السلام).) ordered him to give these to the beggar. The beggar took the money and said, “All praise is for Allah alone. O Allah You are the sustainer, You are One, there is no partner for You. Imam ((عليه السلام).) again stopped him. Then the Imam ((عليه السلام).) removed his shirt and gave it to the beggar and said, “Wear it.” The beggar put the shirt on and thanked Allah who had bestowed him with the dress and made him happy. At this stage the beggar turned towards Imam ((عليه السلام).) and said, “O slave of Allah may Allah reward you for this.” After this he went his way. The narrator says that if the beggar had not addressed the Imam ((عليه السلام).) as such, Imam ((عليه السلام).) would have continued to give him gifts for his thankfulness to Allah.9

8. Bihār al-Anwār

9. al-Kāfi

 

This above is the definition of Hidden shirk. So, I think a man will be punished if he commits shirk in heart.

Also, you can refer to the entire page. It is from the book 'The Greater Sins' by Ayatullah Dastghaib Shirazi (May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) be pleased with him).

https://www.al-islam.org/greater-sins-volume-1-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/first-greater-sin-shirk

May Allah bless you and increase grant you with wisdom and knowledge.

[Dave follower of The Way 279]

The topic started by looking at Iblees and I felt that was helpful to start to think about shirk and kufur (does that mean disobedience? - Non Muslim question?)

However in looking at Iblees/shatan The topic moved away from ourselves and it has been interesting to see it return to asking about whether and how we comit shirk and or disobidience.

The question about our behaviour in this world and how God looks at it is maybe one of the basic questions we will ever have to grapel with.  It is comforting to turn the spotlight on to Iblees and onto the Hindus or the unbelievers but when the spotlight - the nur - of God shines in our hearts what does he find there?

The Injil says John chapter 3

¹⁹ This is the verdict: light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. ²⁰ Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. ²¹ But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

I think that the real discription of shirk and kufur is running away from God's light.  Trying to live our lives by our own light.

It is like closing the curtains on a bright sunny summer day and lighting a candle, then complaining we can't see.

Let's come to the Light of God and let him purify our lives of the darkness of shirk and stop hiding in shame.  God wants to walk with us today in this world in the light of truth empowering us to make a difference for him.

[Zainuu 1,396]

7 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Let's come to the Light of God and let him purify our lives of the darkness of shirk and stop hiding in shame.  God wants to walk with us today in this world in the light of truth empowering us to make a difference for him.

Salaam brother,

Can you describe this light of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

According to Hindus, God is:

"Serv Veshvak, Serv Vyaapak, Serv Antaryaami, Andhakaar (darkness), Anaadhi, Anupam Serv Dhaar, Ajar Amar, Abhay"

These all are actually Islamic defintions too in context of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

So, want to understand how you'll define this light. And isn't following the light itself not shirk? 

Because as soon as you attributed something with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gets separated from that attribute. So, considered that attribute can also mislead us itself. 

[313_Waiter 1,205]

18 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

light of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Salam yes we need to be careful not to call Allah photons or some sort of spirit or anything. Further we need to call that the Imams (عليه السلام) and Prophets (عليه السلام) as creations to stick to Tawhid. This reminds me of the beautiful Light Verse though (sorry mods, this is off-topic from Shirk):

Quote

God is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is a niche, wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as a shining star kindled from a blessed olive tree, neither of the East nor of the West. Its oil would well-nigh shine forth, even if no fire had touched it. Light upon light. God guides unto His Light whomsoever He will, and God sets forth parables for mankind, and God is Knower of all things. 24:35

The Enlightening Commentary gives a beautiful commentary of what it means for Allah to be the Light of the heavens and the earth:

Quote

It is interesting that in the 47th part of Jushan Kabir supplication, which is a collection of Allah’s attributes, we read: 

“...Oh Light of lights! Oh Lighter of lights! Oh Creator of lights! Oh Administrator of light! Oh Measurer of light! Oh Light of all lights! Oh Light before any light! Oh Light after any light! Oh Light that is superior to any light! Oh Light that has no parallel!”

https://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-11/section-5-allah-light#sura-nur-verse-35

 

[Shahrukh K 342]

On 1/15/2021 at 10:06 AM, 313_Waiter said:

question is, if we say "I think vishnu and shiva are Allah" (nauzubillah) isn't this a sin of the mind as well, so will it be forgivable

Brahma,Vishnu and Shiva are names of Allah, like Raheem,Rahman and Malik yaumiddeen. 

 

 

[313_Waiter 1,205]

8 minutes ago, Shahrukh K said:

Brahma,Vishnu and Shiva are names of Allah, like Raheem,Rahman and Malik yaumiddeen. 

 

 

I’ve heard of this hypothesis, thank you. Though Brahman would fit under God: 

Quote

Brahman is a metaphysical concept of Hinduism referring to the ultimate unchanging reality, that is uncreated, eternal, infinite, transcendent, the cause, the foundation, the source and the goal of all existence.
-Wikipedia 

Nonetheless, idol worship is condemned, and worshipping the names (instead of the meaning) is condemned. 
 

And Allah knows best

Edited January 16 by 313_Waiter

[Shahrukh K 342]

On 1/9/2021 at 3:31 PM, 313_Waiter said:

I was under the impression that all sins are rooted in shirk (either concealed shirk or manifest shirk).

The follower of satanic idea referred to as ‘Iblis’ has an interesting story. Iblis, while essentially a Name composition comprised of angelic qualities, displays an inadequate expression of the Names al-Waliyy, al-Mumin and al-Hadi. Due to his own inadequacy, he fails to recognize how profoundly the Names are manifested on the creation of supreme form (‘ahsani takwim’). Hence, he evaluates Adam according to his apparent qualities and fails to see his superiority in terms of the Names and their expressions. Moreover, he assumes that accepting the superiority of Adam over his own creation will mean denying his own reality, since he too is created with and from the Names, and thus he refrains from prostrating. Evidently, it is impossible for one to evaluate a quality that he himself lacks. Eventually this leads to pure consciousness in the form of Adam approaching the forbidden tree, i.e. becoming restricted by the requisites of the bodily life. 
This is also an interesting anecdote. Satan convinces Adam to the ‘wrong’ according to his own ‘right’, imposing the idea: “You have been created with the reality of the Names, you cannot be restricted or conditioned by anything, you should do as you wish. If you don’t eat from the forbidden tree, that is, if you don’t live the requirements of the bodily life, you would be accepting limitation and thus denying your essential reality, thereby depriving yourself of immortality!”
Consequently, humanity at the level of the Inspiring Self (nafs-i mulhima), 
symbolized with the name Adam, becomes veiled from the higher states of
pure consciousness, and falls to the bodily state of the Commanding Self (nafs-i ammarah), becoming conditioned by bodily needs. When this reaches the ultimate point of forgetting their own essence, the reminders and imparters of reality, i.e. Rasuls, become manifest, inviting mankind back to their essence, back to having faith in the higher states of consciousness.When human beings, who are manifestations of Universal Pure Consciousness, begin to experience themselves as individualized conscious beings in this physical body, the struggle of this relationship with their ‘partner’ (body) and the battle to go back to their essential reality commences.

[Dave follower of The Way 279]

On 1/15/2021 at 5:28 PM, Zainuu said:

Can you describe this light of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

Hey what an challenging question?  As the @313_Waitersaid we don't want to confuse God with a created thing.  God said "let there be light"  So light as we know it is created photon etc. but even the Qur'an wants to talk about God's light as the Nur verse 24:35 states

On 1/15/2021 at 5:52 PM, 313_Waiter said:

God is the Light of the heavens and the earth.

The light of God is his glory.  Everything that is pure and good and rightious and just.  In the Zebur 36 We see God's light is different from our light

How priceless is your unfailing love, O God!
    People take refuge in the shadow of your wings.
⁸ They feast in the abundance of your house;
    you give them drink from your river of delights.
⁹ For with you is the fountain of life;
    in your light we see light.

Both writers before Jesus the Messiah and after him, saw God's light as fundamental to existance in the next life.

Isaiah 60:19 (500 years Before Jesus)

The sun will no more be your light by day,
    nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you,
for the Lord will be your everlasting light,
    and your God will be your glory.

Reveleation 21:23 (50 years after Jesus's death and resurrection)

The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.

The "Lamb" is a reference to Jesus the Messiah

God's light is his truth which keeps us from the shame of shirk and draws us to the worship and service of the One Living God

Edited January 21 by Dave follower of The Way

[Ali bin Hussein 982]

On 1/15/2021 at 5:04 AM, 313_Waiter said:

, 

In trying to understand which shirk is unforgivable, 

Qur'an is clear there is only one type of shirk. Associating partners with Allah.

Other sins are not shirk and all sins can be forgiven. It's not a difficult concept.

Why the confusion ?