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In the Name of God بسم الله

Tawassul - Authentication And exact meaning

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As we recently had a lot of exchanges on this.

I am myself deeply interested in understood the exact meaning of Tawassul.

Because literally many shias do dua to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) at places like mazaars and dargah by touching the Zareeh (outer boundary of grave) of a great person (not necessarily ahlulbayt (AS)).

So, I personally don't doubt tawassul but rather it's limits.

@Sabrejet @313_Waiter @Muhammad Al-Hurr @AStruggler

Let's have a deeper discussion on it.

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2 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

As we recently had a lot of exchanges on this.

I am myself deeply interested in understood the exact meaning of Tawassul.

Because literally many shias do dua to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) at places like mazaars and dargah by touching the Zareeh (outer boundary of grave) of a great person (not necessarily ahlulbayt (AS)).

So, I personally don't doubt tawassul but rather it's limits.

@Sabrejet @313_Waiter @Muhammad Al-Hurr @AStruggler

Let's have a deeper discussion on it.

My question is that where does the distinction between Panjetan (the initial 5 of Ahlulbayt) and the rest of infallibles comes into place?

Also, is it right to ask intercession of Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) or Hazrat Narjis Khatun (mother of Imam al Qaim (AS)) or Hazrat Zainab (عليه السلام) or Hazrat Fatima Masuma (عليه السلام)?

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We always recite the following in each raka'ah of all our prayers.

Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help. -  Ayah 5 Al-Fatihah (The Opening)

And Allah Almighty has instructed all believers to supplicate to Him for their needs.

And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely, I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, - Ayah 186 Al-Baqarah (The Cow)

And who is in greater error than he who calls besides Allah upon those that will not answer him till the day of resurrection, and they are heedless of their call - Ayah 5 Al-Ahqaf (The Sand Dunes)

But your Sustainer says: “Call unto Me, [and] I shall respond to you! - Ayah 40: Ghafir (The Forgiving One)

Is not He Who responds to the distressed one when one calls Him, Who removes the evil - Ayah 62 An-Naml

If Allah Almighty commands the believers to supplicate to Him and said that He WILL RESPOND. Do we need to have any intercessors?

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Posted (edited)

There are only three limits I can think of:

- that whatever is requested and achieved is based on the premise that it is by Allah's permission,

- that forms of worship solely reserved for Allah be maintained (example, sujood can only be done to Allah, and nothing else unless otherwise explicitly commanded by Allah).

- that the request should be to someone designated by Allah

I do not understand where people get the idea only those "literally" living on earth can help others. Example: requesting a favour from your siblings is acceptable, but if they die it automatically becomes impossible. I suppose this conclusion comes from the assumption that if they were to fulfill a favour while in the afterlife, it would imply they are both "alive" and All-Hearing which is an attribute of God but this is, firstly, just an assumption without any supporting evidence, and, secondly, it is false for several reasons.

Things like wiping one's face on a holy grave is not a prayer or supplication per se, nor is it a form of direct worship to the holy personality, rather it is a form of acquiring blessings or baraka. This, I believe, may directly provide an immediate benefit or longterm benefit, or both, for example the baraka in the shirt of Prophet Yousef ((عليه السلام)) curing the eyes of his father ((عليه السلام)) (by Allah's permission - as long as this is acknowledged there shouldn't be an issue). And therefore, this is all a form of worship to Allah in the sense that one is seeking nearness to Allah, just like how working an honest job is worship (obviously, here, one is not "worshipping" the job or the boss). This is why it is ludicrous and extremely ignorant to accuse one who throws himself on a holy grave of worshipping the grave, or one who prays to Allah at a grave equates to praying to the holy personality within the grave. 

The second thing, I believe, that acquiring the blessings of wiping clothes or whatever on a holy grave is that it increases the "chance of success" of a supplication to Allah being accepted; both directly through the blessing itself, and the appeal to X holy personality to request on your behalf, like how the sons of Prophet Yacoub ((عليه السلام)) requested  that he request forgiveness for them.

Remember, sending peace and blessings on the Prophet and his family prior to a dua removes the veil on the dua (which again, does not guarantee acceptance of the dua, but increases the chance of success, similar to how applying for a job and having the vice-president appeal for you to the CEO nearly guarantees the job).

Edited by dragonxx
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The words Tawassul and Shafaʿah are the two concepts regarding intercession. This concept refers to asking any of Maʿsumeen (A) to pray on our behalf to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to forgive our sins or to grant us our needs. When we ask for intercession in this world, it is referred to as Tawassul and the intercessor is our wasilah. if we ask for intercession in the Hereafter, it is called Shafaʿah and the intercessor is our Shafiʿ.

Intercession does not mean to supplicate, worship or prostrate to any of the Ma'sumeen. This is haram. An example of tawassul is: 

And We did not send any Messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful. [4:64]

Here Allah has clearly allowed the wrongdoers to ask the Prophet to ask Allah for forgiveness and Allah would have forgave them.

And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord [3:169]

Here Allah says those who are killed in His way are spiritually alive, hence, you can still do tawassul through them. In the salah it is wajib to say the salawat and it is mustahab to say salam to the Prophet and the Prophet is able to here these. He in fact replies back to the salam. Hence, he is also spiritually alive.

Shafa'ah has been mentioned multiple times in the Quran. For example: 

On that Day none will have the power to intercede for them except those who received a sanction from the Most Compassionate Lord. [19:87]

So the intercession of the intercessors will be of no benefit to them [75:45]

 

You

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5 hours ago, dragonxx said:

that whatever is requested and achieved is based on the premise that it is by Allah's permission,

To which point Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) permission is for Tawassul and where does Allah or the infallibles stop us from doing so?

5 hours ago, dragonxx said:

that forms of worship solely reserved for Allah be maintained (example, sujood can only be done to Allah, and nothing else unless otherwise explicitly commanded by Allah).

Agree.

5 hours ago, dragonxx said:

do not understand where people get the idea only those "literally" living on earth can help others. Example: requesting a favour from your siblings is acceptable, but if they die it automatically becomes impossible. I suppose this conclusion comes from the assumption that if they were to fulfill a favour while in the afterlife, it would imply they are both "alive" and All-Hearing which is an attribute of God but this is, firstly, just an assumption without any supporting evidence, and, secondly, it is false for several reasons.

Yes true. But my point is that Tawassul or wasila is kind of a status given to a great personality, so there must be a border line. Like, we cannot accept Imamate of anyone other than the infallibles. A martyr is acknowledged through his departure in thed way of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), if we love someone extremely and that person departs, out of love we cannot call him a martyr. So, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) blesses some of his creation with some favors and we recognize those favors and thank Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) but we cannot attribute anyone with them.

5 hours ago, dragonxx said:

Things like wiping one's face on a holy grave is not a prayer or supplication per se, nor is it a form of direct worship to the holy personality, rather it is a form of acquiring blessings or baraka. This, I believe, may directly provide an immediate benefit or longterm benefit, or both, for example the baraka in the shirt of Prophet Yousef ((عليه السلام)) curing the eyes of his father ((عليه السلام)) (by Allah's permission - as long as this is acknowledged there shouldn't be an issue). And therefore, this is all a form of worship to Allah in the sense that one is seeking nearness to Allah, just like how working an honest job is worship (obviously, here, one is not "worshipping" the job or the boss). This is why it is ludicrous and extremely ignorant to accuse one who throws himself on a holy grave of worshipping the grave, or one who prays to Allah at a grave equates to praying to the holy personality within the grave. 

The second thing, I believe, that acquiring the blessings of wiping clothes or whatever on a holy grave is that it increases the "chance of success" of a supplication to Allah being accepted; both directly through the blessing itself, and the appeal to X holy personality to request on your behalf, like how the sons of Prophet Yacoub ((عليه السلام)) requested  that he request forgiveness for them

Here, I might question.

Issue of shirk is really grave and sensitive. All these traditions that you pointed out and other traditions like offering food or chador in the dargah of some X personality (not masoomeen) are seemingly like those done by the disbelievers and idolaters too. It was done by the roman pagans, mesopotamians, meccan pagans, today by Indian hindus etc. 

And I know that hindus actually don't consider there idols as gods but rather deities. 

My question is that what are the limits of tawassul?

If I visit a grave of maybe a sayyid or a descendent of Imam Hasan or Imam Zain ul Abideen (عليه السلام) and do dua by tawassul of that person to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Is it wrong or is it right?

In both cases, who are those great people whose tawassul can be done. Up until now, through dua e Tawassul and Ziyarat al Ashura, I can understand that tawassul of Infallibles makes complete sense and it is not wrong.

But tawassul of anyone other than that. Shias never do any tawassul of the prophets. But do it in case of Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام), martyrs of Karbala, Hazrat Fatima Masuma (عليه السلام). 

Gravity of this act:

Shirk is so sensitive that the words in Salaat need to be pronounced correctly. I heard one video of Allama Aqeel ul Gharvi where he said that :

the arabic phrase is Allahu Akber. If someone says it 'Allah Wakber'. That would be dangerous. Because Wakber was an idol kept in Kaaba. A meccan god.

So, I am not saying that people are doing shirk or something. But what is the extent of tawassul?

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5 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

The words Tawassul and Shafaʿah are the two concepts regarding intercession. This concept refers to asking any of Maʿsumeen (A) to pray on our behalf to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to forgive our sins or to grant us our needs. When we ask for intercession in this world, it is referred to as Tawassul and the intercessor is our wasilah. if we ask for intercession in the Hereafter, it is called Shafaʿah and the intercessor is our Shafiʿ.

Intercession does not mean to supplicate, worship or prostrate to any of the Ma'sumeen. This is haram. An example of tawassul is: 

And We did not send any Messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful. [4:64]

Here Allah has clearly allowed the wrongdoers to ask the Prophet to ask Allah for forgiveness and Allah would have forgave them.

And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord [3:169]

Here Allah says those who are killed in His way are spiritually alive, hence, you can still do tawassul through them. In the salah it is wajib to say the salawat and it is mustahab to say salam to the Prophet and the Prophet is able to here these. He in fact replies back to the salam. Hence, he is also spiritually alive.

Shafa'ah has been mentioned multiple times in the Quran. For example: 

On that Day none will have the power to intercede for them except those who received a sanction from the Most Compassionate Lord. [19:87]

So the intercession of the intercessors will be of no benefit to them [75:45]

 

You

Interesting. And I agree on all.

But again, all Masoomeen or 14 masoomeen?

 

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10 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

But again, all Masoomeen or 14 masoomeen?

 

Any of the Ma'sumeen.

In the Quran [12:97-98], the sons of Prophet Ya'qub asked their father to ask Allah for their forgiveness and Prophet Ya'qub did so.

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13 minutes ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Any of the Ma'sumeen.

In the Quran [12:97-98], the sons of Prophet Ya'qub asked their father to ask Allah for their forgiveness and Prophet Ya'qub did so.

That is help. Prophet Yaqub (عليه السلام) was alive.

But have you seen any Shia praying like 'O Prophet Yaqub (عليه السلام) please intercede on behalf of me that my needs be granted by Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))'?

As per my knowledge, prophets themselves asked tawassul of 14 Masoomeen.

Like Hazrat Adam (عليه السلام).

 

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3 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

That is help. Prophet Yaqub (عليه السلام) was alive.

But have you seen any Shia praying like 'O Prophet Yaqub (عليه السلام) please intercede on behalf of me that my needs be granted by Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))'?

As per my knowledge, prophets themselves asked tawassul of 14 Masoomeen.

Like Hazrat Adam (عليه السلام).

 

Perhaps.

Anyway, tawassul of the 14 Ma'sumeen would be preferred as they are the closest to Allah.

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11 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

The supplications or methods of supplication described by the aimmah (عليه السلام) are also to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Lets see this one:

 يَا وَلِيَّ اللَّهِ إِنَّ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ ذُنُوباً لا يَأْتِي عَلَيْهَا إِلا رِضَاكُمْ فَبِحَقِّ مَنِ ائْتَمَنَكُمْ عَلَى سِرِّهِ وَاسْتَرْعَاكُمْ أَمْرَ خَلْقِهِ وَقَرَنَ طَاعَتَكُمْ بِطَاعَتِهِ لَمَّا اسْتَوْهَبْتُمْ ذُنُوبِي وَكُنْتُمْ شُفَعَائِي فَإِنِّي لَكُمْ مُطِيعٌ مَنْ أَطَاعَكُمْ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ وَمَنْ عَصَاكُمْ فَقَدْ عَصَى اللَّهَ وَمَنْ أَحَبَّكُمْ فَقَدْ أَحَبَّ اللَّهَ وَمَنْ أَبْغَضَكُمْ فَقَدْ أَبْغَضَ اللَّهَ اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي لَوْ وَجَدْتُ شُفَعَاءَ أَقْرَبَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ مُحَمَّد وَأَهْلِ بَيْتِهِ الأَخْيَارِ الأَئِمَّةِ الأَبْرَارِ لَجَعَلْتُهُمْ شُفَعَائِي فَبِحَقِّهِمُ الَّذِي أَوْجَبْتَ لَهُمْ عَلَيْكَ أَسْأَلُكَ أَنْ تُدْخِلَنِي فِي جُمْلَةِ الْعَارِفِينَ بِهِمْ وَبِحَقِّهِمْ وَفِي زُمْرَةِ الْمَرْحُومِينَ بِشَفَاعَتِهِمْ إِنَّكَ أَرْحَمُ الرَّاحِمِينَ وَصَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَى مُحَمَّد وَآلِهِ الطَّاهِرِينَ وَسَلَّمَ تَسْلِيماً كَثِيراً وَحَسْبُنَا اللَّهُ وَنِعْمَ الْوَكِيلُ

O friend of God [O friends of God]! Indeed there are sins in between me and God that cannot be removed unless you approve of that. I ask you by the One who has established you as His Trustees of His Secrets and has entrusted the affairs of His creatures to you, and has equated your obedience with His own obedience to kindly implore forgiveness for my sins, and be the ones who intercede on my behalf as I am obedient to you and whoever is obedient to you has indeed obeyed God.

Whoever disobeys you is disobedient to God. And whoever loves you has indeed loved God. And whoever despises you has indeed loathed God.

O God! Could I ever have found ones to intercede with Thee on my behalf who would be closer to Thee than Muhammad and the Members of his Household - the leaders of the Company of the Good and the pious ones? I beseech Thee by their right (the Divine Leaders) that Thou establish them as the ones to intercede on my behalf.

I ask Thee to place me amongst those who know them (the Divine Leaders) and recognize their rightfulness - and amongst those who hope for their intercession - as Thou art the Most Merciful of those that are merciful. And may God’s Blessings and Salutations with much respect be upon our Master Muhammad ((عليه السلام).) and his Household. And God sufficeth for us, and He is the best disposer of affairs.

https://www.al-islam.org/uyun-akhbar-ar-ridha-volume-2-shaykh-saduq/chapter-68-visiting-ar-ridhaas-toos#az-ziyara-al-jamea-al-kabeera-major-comprehensive-pilgrimage

Here is the chain of narrators:

حَدَّثَنا عَلِيٍّ بن أَحمَد بن مُحَمَّد بن عمران الدَّقاق‏ رَضِىَ اللهُ عَنْهُ و مُحَمَّد بن أَحمَد السناني و عَلِيٍّ بن عَبدُ اللَّه الوَرَّاقِ و الحُسَين بن إِبراهِيم بن أَحمَد بن هِشام المكتب قالوا حَدَّثَنا مُحَمَّد بن أبي عَبدُ اللَّه الكوفي وأَبُو الحُسَين الأسدي قالوا حَدَّثَنا مُحَمَّد بن إسماعيل المكي البرمكي قالَ حَدَّثَنا مُوسَى بن عمران النخعي قالَ قُلْتُ لِعَلِيِّ بْنِ مُحَمَّد بْنِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ مُوسَى بْنِ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّد بْنِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ صَلَوَاتُ اللَّهِ وَسَلامُهُ عَلَيْهِمْ

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7 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

That is help

اياك نستعين

11 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

But have you seen any Shia praying like 'O Prophet Yaqub (عليه السلام) please intercede on behalf of me that my needs be granted by Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))'?

Already quoted above:

Quote

O friend of God [O friends of God]! Indeed there are sins in between me and God that cannot be removed unless you approve of that. I ask you by the One who has established you as His Trustees of His Secrets and has entrusted the affairs of His creatures to you, and has equated your obedience with His own obedience to kindly implore forgiveness for my sins, and be the ones who intercede on my behalf as I am obedient to you and whoever is obedient to you has indeed obeyed God.

Whoever disobeys you is disobedient to God. And whoever loves you has indeed loved God. And whoever despises you has indeed loathed God.

O God! Could I ever have found ones to intercede with Thee on my behalf who would be closer to Thee than Muhammad and the Members of his Household - the leaders of the Company of the Good and the pious ones? I beseech Thee by their right (the Divine Leaders) that Thou establish them as the ones to intercede on my behalf.

I ask Thee to place me amongst those who know them (the Divine Leaders) and recognize their rightfulness - and amongst those who hope for their intercession - as Thou art the Most Merciful of those that are merciful. And may God’s Blessings and Salutations with much respect be upon our Master Muhammad ((عليه السلام).) and his Household. And God sufficeth for us, and He is the best disposer of affairs.

See the first bolded underlined part and the next. 

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@Cool thanks for your feedback brother. If you look at the wording of the ziarah, it is asking the aimmah to pray for the forgiveness of the one who is reciting the ziarah. 

This is of course different than asking the aimmah (عليه السلام) themselves to grant forgiveness, sustenance, etc etc 

 

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3 minutes ago, Cool said:

اياك نستعين

Already quoted above:

See the first bolded underlined part and the next. 

Salaam

Thanks!!

I agree on it. But is this a proof for intercession of the Prophets other than the 14 infallibles?

Seemingly it is a Ziyarat which points out to intercession of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and 13 Infallibles, not the other prophets.

To which I agree.

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1 minute ago, Mahdavist said:

thanks for your feedback brother. If you look at the wording of the ziarah, it is asking the aimmah to pray for the forgiveness of the one who is reciting the ziarah. 

Yes. This is what tawassul means. Asking aimmah to pray on behalf of the one who is in need.

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2 minutes ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Look at dua tawassul.

It is from authentic ahadith such as in bihar ul-anwar, volume 99, page 247, narrated by Allama Majlisi.

Actually this du'a has not been found in any of the earlier books. It has been included in Bihar ul Anwar but it's source or chain has not been found. 

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1 minute ago, Zainuu said:

Yes. This is what tawassul means. Asking aimmah to pray on behalf of the one who is in need.

This is why I asked you what you meant by tawassul. Some people seem to confuse it with istighatha, which is essentially beseeching help from other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

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1 minute ago, Mahdavist said:

@Cool thanks for your feedback brother. If you look at the wording of the ziarah, it is asking the aimmah to pray for the forgiveness of the one who is reciting the ziarah. 

This is of course different than asking the aimmah (عليه السلام) themselves to grant forgiveness, sustenance, etc etc 

 

At least it mentions asking the Aimmah (عليه السلام). 

So can we ask Aimmah (عليه السلام) to pray to God for our increase in sustenance? 

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15 hours ago, Zainuu said:

As we recently had a lot of exchanges on this.

I am myself deeply interested in understood the exact meaning of Tawassul.

Because literally many shias do dua to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) at places like mazaars and dargah by touching the Zareeh (outer boundary of grave) of a great person (not necessarily ahlulbayt (AS)).

So, I personally don't doubt tawassul but rather it's limits.

@Sabrejet @313_Waiter @Muhammad Al-Hurr @AStruggler

Let's have a deeper discussion on it.

Salaam Aleikum Brother,

Thank you for making this topic. Insha'Allah we will benefit and come to good conclusion.

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27 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

As per my knowledge, prophets themselves asked tawassul of 14 Masoomeen.

Like Hazrat Adam (عليه السلام).

Salam wasn't this more like asking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to forgive him (عليه السلام) for the sake of ahlulbayt? Which is a bit different to asking the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) to pray to Allah to forgive him (عليه السلام)?

 

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8 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

I agree on it. But is this a proof for intercession of the Prophets other than the 14 infallibles?

قَالُواْ يَا أَبَانَا اسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا خَاطِئِينَ

12:97

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

At least it mentions asking the Aimmah (عليه السلام). 

So can we ask Aimmah (عليه السلام) to pray to God for our increase in sustenance? 

Whether you can or not is not something I can decide, there are jurists for such questions.

Have the aimmah taught us to ask for sustenance in this manner? Apparently not.

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A little contribution from my side; there is an indirect way of tawassul through the mother of Imam e Zamana (a.j).

When you recite Ziarat e Ashura, and the associated two rakat salat, pray to Allah to present it's sawab to the mother of Imam e Zamana i.e. Bibi Narjis Khatoon. Then, you pray to Allah through the waseela/waasta of Imam e Zamana.

This is how I've heard it through some elders in my family, and responsible scholars (not zakirs). This is the only way I've heard of waseela through Bibi Narjis, and no other way.

 

Academic question: does anything look seemingly look wrong with it?

 

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One more thing: can anyone look up that verse where the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) asks Allah for a helper and not help itself? I can't find it; I'll have to go through several videos of scholars to find it again.

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6 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

This is why I asked you what you meant by tawassul. Some people seem to confuse it with istighatha, which is essentially beseeching help from other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

So do you believe it is alright to do tawassul if it means asking the 'aimmah to pray for our forgiveness, given that this whole process was done by the Knowledge, Will and Power of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? I think the shias who support tawassul tend to have this sort of definition.

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5 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

So do you believe it is alright to do tawassul if it means asking the 'aimmah to pray for our forgiveness, given that this whole process was done by the Knowledge, Will and Power of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? I think the shias who support tawassul tend to have this sort of definition.

I cannot rule on what is and isn't permissible. My only suggestion would be to supplicate in the way taught by the Qur'an and the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) rather than to invent our own methods. 

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Just now, Mahdavist said:

Whether you can or not is not something I can decide, there are jurists for such questions.

Have the aimmah taught us to ask for sustenance in this manner? Apparently not.

Again, there are words in Ziyarat e Jamia like these:

وَإِيَابُ الْخَلْقِ إِلَيْكُمْ وَحِسَابُهُمْ عَلَيْكُمْ

And 

وَجَعَلَ صَلَوَاتِنَا عَلَيْكُمْ وَمَا خَصَّنَا بِهِ مِنْ وَلايَتِكُمْ طِيباً لِخَلْقِنَا وَطَهَارَةً لانْفُسِنَا وَتَزْكِيَةً لَنَا وَكَفَّارَةً لِذُنُوبِنَا

And 

مُسْتَشْفِعٌ إِلَى اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ بِكُمْ وَمُتَقَرِّبٌ بِكُمْ إِلَيْهِ وَمُقَدِّمُكُمْ أَمَامَ طَلِبَتِي وَحَوَائِجِي وَإِرَادَتِي فِي كُـلِّ أَحْـوَالِي

And 

بِكُمْ فَتَحَ اللَّهُ وَبِكُمْ يَخْتِمُ وَبِكُمْ يُنَزِّلُ الْغَيْثَ وَبِكُمْ يُمْسِكُ السَّماءَ أَنْ تَقَعَ عَلَى الأَرْضِ إِلاّ بِإِذْنِهِ وَبِكُمْ يُنَفِّـسُ الْهَمَّ وَبِكُمْ يَكْشِفُ الضُّرَّ وَعِنْدَكُمْ مَا نَزَلَتْ بِهِ رُسُلُهُ وَهَبَطَتْ بِهِ مَلائِكَتُهُ وَإِلَى جَدِّكُمْ بُعِثَ الرُّوحُ الأَمِينُ

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12 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

One more thing: can anyone look up that verse where the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) asks Allah for a helper and not help itself? I can't find it; I'll have to go through several videos of scholars to find it again.

Its in chapter 17, 

وَقُل رَّبِّ أَدْخِلْنِي مُدْخَلَ صِدْقٍ وَأَخْرِجْنِي مُخْرَجَ صِدْقٍ وَاجْعَل لِّي مِن لَّدُنكَ سُلْطَانًا نَّصِيرًا

17:80

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24 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

This is why I asked you what you meant by tawassul.

Sorry brother. I overlooked this.

Defintion is 'intercession' in one word. Details below: (all from the book Tawassul - Seeking a way unto Allah by Abd al Karim Shirazi)

Quote

 

The lexical meaning of tawassul is 'nearness' or a 'means' through which to reach a certain goal. For instance, when it is said wa wassala ila Allah, it means to perform a certain act for gaining proximity to God. Accordingly wasil here means being 'desirous of God'.1

As is clear from the wordings of ayah 35 of Surah al-Ma'idah, which we quoted at the beginning of the article, “fear Allah” is a commandment to abstain from sin, while “seek an approach unto Him” is an order to perform worship and acts of devotion.22

Both Raghib Isfahani and 'Allamah Sayyid Muhammad Husayn Tabataba'i opine that al-wasilah means to reach a certain goal through desire, inclination or willingness, and in fact wasilah towards God means observance of His path with knowledge and worship through adherence to the Shari'ah. In other words wasilah is a means of communication and spiritual link between mankind and God.

  • 1.Refer to the Arabic lexicons Lisan al-'Arab, Asas al-Balaghah and Tartib al-Qamus al-Muhit for meaning of wasala.
  • 2.Alusi, Ruh al-Ma'ani, vol. 6, p. 124-128.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

So do you believe it is alright to do tawassul if it means asking the 'aimmah to pray for our forgiveness, given that this whole process was done by the Knowledge, Will and Power of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? I think the shias who support tawassul tend to have this sort of definition.

This is at least valid tawassul, if we accept that prophets/Imams are alive (which is mentioned in quran), and God will notify the message to them if they are not present with us. So they will pray to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to fulfill our need and that God accept this.

We need to show that this process is acceptable with authentic narrations.

I found this following verse 9:105 very interesting :

And say: Work; so Allah will see your work and (so will) His Messenger and the believers; and you shall be brought back to the Knower of the unseen and the seen, then He will inform you of what you did.

Narration:

Sayyid Ibne Tawoos has, in his work Risala Muhaasabtun Nafs, quoted from Ibne Mahyar’s Tafsir and said that once Ammar bin Yasir requested the Holy Prophet (S): It is my aspiration and I earnestly wish that you may live among us the long life of Nuh ((عليه السلام).).

The Holy Prophet (S) replied: O Ammar! For you both my life and my death are good. Life is better because when you commit a misdeed, I pray for your forgiveness. But fear Allah after my death and continue to send more and more Salawat on me and on my Ahlul Bayt ((عليه السلام).). Surely your deeds, along with your and your parents and forefathers names are being presented to me. When I see your good deeds, I praise Allah and when I see your misdeeds, I pray for your forgiveness.

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