Tawassul - Authentication And exact meaning

[Abu_Zahra]

18 minutes ago, Cool said:

Again, there are words in Ziyarat e Jamia like these

Yes, how is it related to asking for sustenance?

[Zainuu]

39 minutes ago, Cool said:

قَالُواْ يَا أَبَانَا اسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا خَاطِئِينَ

12:97

It was when Hazrat Yaqoob (عليه السلام) was alive. Will it remain the same today?

[Cool]

8 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Yes, how is it related to asking for sustenance?

I would add " asking them to pray for sustenance" because of these words precisely:

Quote

God has initiated everything with you, and He shall terminate everything with you. He will send down rain due to you. For your sake, He will prevent the sky from collapsing down onto the Earth without His Permission. He will remove the sorrows through you. And He will solve the difficulties through you.

Are these mere words for salutations & revering them, verbal acknowledging their lofty status or are these facts? 

[Abu Nur]

We can find it in Sunni books too, but by albani standart it is weak:

Yoosuf ibn Moosa told us: ‘Abd al-Majeed ibn ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Abi Rawwaad told us, from Sufyaan, from ‘Abdullah ibn as-Saa’ib, from Zaadhaan, from ‘Abdullah, that the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Allah has angels who travel around the earth, conveying to me the salaam (greeting of peace) of my ummah.”

He said: And the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “My living is good for you, for you will be told what is good and what is bad for you; and my death is good for you, for your deeds will be shown to me, then whatever I see of good, I will praise Allah for it, and whatever I see of bad, I will pray to Allah to forgive you.”

Edited January 8, 2021 by Abu Nur

[Cool]

6 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

It was when Hazrat Yaqoob (عليه السلام) was alive. Will it remain the same today?

Do you consider him as "dead"? 

 

[Sabrejet]

15 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

It was when Hazrat Yaqoob (عليه السلام) was alive. Will it remain the same today?

On the flip side, Isa ((عليه السلام)) is actually alive, and as far as I know, we don't beseech Allah through his wasila either.

Edit: we don't use the waseela of Khidr ((عليه السلام)) or Ilyas ((عليه السلام)) either AFAIK.

The closest way of wasila through him I've seen is this: whoever recites Surah Saffah regularly, Hazrat Isa ((عليه السلام)) prays for his forgiveness. It is from a book of obscure origins though: Fawaid e Quran by Sayyid Mustafa Musawi.

Btw I've tested the Surah Kahf alarm clock part of that book: so far it has worked for me. Others might have different experiences.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Sabrejet

[Abu Nur]

From Sunnis:

Abdullah (Ibn Masud) narrates from the Prophet ( وآله عليه الله صلى وسلم (who said: Allah has (appointed) angels wandering on earth, they bring me the Salam of my Ummah”, and the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said : “ My life is good (Khayr) for you, you narrate me and I narrate to you, and my death is good for you, your actions will be presented to me, what I will see from good deeds I will praise Allah, what I will see from bad deeds, I will ask forgiveness from Allah for you” [Musnad al Bazaar, Hadith # 1925, Published by Maktaba al Uloom wal Hikam]

Imam al Hafidh Al Haythami (rah) said in Majma Az Zawaid: It’s narrators are those of Sahih [Majma Az Zawaid 9:24] Imam al Hafidh Jalal ud din Suyuti (rah) said in Khasais ul Kubra: Its Chain is Sahih [Khasais ul Kubra 2:281] Imam Suyuti (rah) also authenticated its chain in Manahil al-Safa (p. 31 #8) And Imam al-‘Iraqi (rah) said: وروى أبو بكر البزار في مسنده بإسناد جيد i.e. Abu Bakr al Bazzar (rah) narrated it with strong chain (in Tarh al-Tathrib 3:297) Imam Ibn Jawzi (rah) also narrated it in his magnificent Al-Wafa bi Ahwal lil Mustafa, Page No. 826, Hadith No. 1564, Published by Dar ul Kutab al iLmiyyah, Beirut, Lebanon (Note: In the beginning of this book Imam Ibn Jawzi the most strict scholar on Jirah wa Tadil said: I have not mixed Sahih ahadith with false in this book] Mullah Ali al-Qari (rah) added: "Al-Harith ibn Usama narrated it in his Musnad with a sound chain." (Al-Qari, Sharh al-Shifa' (1:102) Shaykh `Abd Allah al-Talidi said in his Tahdhib al-Khasa'is al-Kubra (p. 458-459 #694) that this chain is sound according to Muslim's criterion, and Shaykh Mahmud Mamduh in Raf`al-Minara (p. 156-169) discusses it at length and declares it sound Al-Munawi also declared it sahîh (Al-Munawi in Fayd al-Qadir (3:401) And so did al-Zurqani in his commentary on al-Qastallani's al-Mawahib alLaduniyya, and Shihab al-Din al-Khafaji in Al-Khafaji, Sharh al-Shifa' (1:102) This hadith clearly proves that all our actions are witnessed by Prophet (Peace be upon him).

- It seems that Ahlus Sunnah wa’l Jammah believs in this and that Salafis oppose it.

[Abu_Zahra]

33 minutes ago, Cool said:

I would add " asking them to pray for sustenance" because of these words precisely:

Are these mere words for salutations & revering them, verbal acknowledging their lofty status or are these facts? 

I don't see a difference between the two. Again, not sure what this has to do with supplication.

[Zainuu]

41 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

we don't use the waseela of Khidr ((عليه السلام))

Just an add-on : Though we use the way of seeking forgiveness from Hazrat Khidr as Dua Kumayl is attributed to Hazrat Khidr (عليه السلام). 

Certainly, when he is talking about sins, he is not referring to himself but rather giving us a way to supplicate to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Here, I will also separate methodology of Dua and Tawassul and help and waasta (for the sake of) as brother @313_Waiter has questioned that Hz Adam (عليه السلام) seeks forgiveness (by giving waasta) of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). I am still not able to access Al Dhur al Manthur from Suyuti to check the exact reference.

[Zainuu]

53 minutes ago, Cool said:

Do you consider him as "dead"? 

 

I am not saying this. 

I mean that, "Has he achieved the status of wasila."

Do we every make Hazrat Yaqoob (عليه السلام) or any prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to intercede.

As of being dead and alive.

We don't consider martyrs as dead in a spiritual manner. But does that mean they can intercede.

Let me give another example:

Will we ask the intercession of Shaheed Qassem Suleimani (May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) be pleased with him)?

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Zainuu

[Sabrejet]

1 hour ago, Zainuu said:

قَالُواْ يَا أَبَانَا اسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا خَاطِئِينَ

12:97

I think this ayat is one of the supporting evidences of asking others to pray for you in general.

edit: someone who has a closer standing with Allah than you, because of his piety and lack of sins.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Sabrejet

[Sabrejet]

Anyways, what are the opinions of Namaz e Istighatha of Bibi Fatima? Keep in mind that it's a mutawattir tradition.

[Cool]

20 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

I don't see a difference between the two. Again, not sure what this has to do with supplication.

I dont know what you mean by "supplication"?

A person is calling upon Aimmah (عليه السلام) (O Friends of God!) to pray for him for either his forgiveness or for increase in his sustenance, what's the difference? It would be a tawassul in both the cases, with different requests. 

Lets see two verses with very interesting text:

وَالَّذِينَ هَاجَرُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ قُتِلُوا أَوْ مَاتُوا لَيَرْزُقَنَّهُمُ اللَّهُ رِزْقًا حَسَنًا وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَهُوَ خَيْرُ الرَّازِقِينَ

22:58

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gives "rizqan hasanah" to those who migrate in the way of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then either killed or died.

ضَرَبَ اللّهُ مَثَلاً عَبْدًا مَّمْلُوكًا لاَّ يَقْدِرُ عَلَى شَيْءٍ وَمَن رَّزَقْنَاهُ مِنَّا رِزْقًا حَسَنًا فَهُوَ يُنفِقُ مِنْهُ سِرًّا وَجَهْرًا هَلْ يَسْتَوُونَ الْحَمْدُ لِلّهِ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ

16:75

Those free men who receive "rizqan hasanah" from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), distributes it openly & secretly. 

:) What is more interesting is that there are types and darajaat of rizq. We do get rizq of intellect from the sayings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), which are full of hikmah. Infact one of the mission of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned in Quran is to teach us كتاب والحكمه

[Cool]

28 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

mean that, "Has he achieved the status of wasila.

Beauty is that everyone is in need of wasilah for himself at any stage except Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), for they are the wasilah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

So if he has not became the wasilah, the request of his sons to him would be useless. 

Shafa'ah is a type of rizq. 

32 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Do we every make Hazrat Yaqoob (عليه السلام) or any prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to intercede.

In general, we can put forth our request before any of the Friend of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Considering him to be a friend of Allah. 

We are not his ummah, we are blessed to be the Ummah of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who is Syedul Anbiya, Imamul Mursaleen. So we don't need to go back to Prophet Yaqoob (عليه السلام)

[Zainuu]

12 minutes ago, Cool said:

In general, we can put forth our request before any of the Friend of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Considering him to be a friend of Allah. 

We are not his ummah, we are blessed to be the Ummah of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who is Syedul Anbiya, Imamul Mursaleen. So we don't need to go back to Prophet Yaqoob (عليه السلام)

That was quite reasonable.

So, we can let anyone among Awliya Allah to intercede for us. But we prefer Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) because no one is above them.

One question, can Tawassul become shirk in any scenario?

Like if someone asks intercession of someone who might or might not be an awliya but that particular person sees him with that angle.

Or maybe any other scenario. You can provide a case if you have it on your mind.

[Cool]

2 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

One question, can Tawassul become shirk in any scenario?

Haqq shanasi is prerequisite. 

If anyone were to understand someone as friend of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) while he is no the friend of Allah, his request not only becomes useless but may have some problems too. 

All would depend upon knowledge and sincerity of that person. So I am not to judge anyone's intention.

But the identification of Awliya Allah is quite clear with the verses of Quran and with the lives of Awliya Allah. 

[Cool]

40 minutes ago, Cool said:

Infact one of the mission of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned in Quran is to teach us كتاب والحكمه

Purificatiion can be understood as rizq for nafs. So one mission of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is to purify us يزكيهم

[Sabrejet]

@Cool what do our tafseers say about verse 9:59?

وَلَوۡ اَنَّهُمۡ رَضُوۡا مَاۤ اٰتٰٮهُمُ اللّٰهُ وَرَسُوۡلُهٗۙ وَقَالُوۡا حَسۡبُنَا اللّٰهُ سَيُؤۡتِيۡنَا اللّٰهُ مِنۡ فَضۡلِهٖ وَ رَسُوۡلُهٗۙ اِنَّاۤ اِلَى اللّٰهِ رٰغِبُوۡنَ

[Abu_Zahra]

1 hour ago, Sabrejet said:

Anyways, what are the opinions of Namaz e Istighatha of Bibi Fatima? Keep in mind that it's a mutawattir tradition.

What do you mean by mutawatir tradition? Is there actually any sanad available for this at all?

If I recall correctly this is something that appears in the mafatih, which was only compiled around 100 years ago? Or are you referring to something else?

Edited January 8, 2021 by Mahdavist

[Sabrejet]

6 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

What do you mean by mutawatir tradition? Is there actually any sanad available for this at all?

If I recall correctly this is something that appears in the mafatih, which was only compiled around 100 years ago? Or are you referring to something else?

I use mutawattir in a loose sense here, as in numerous scholars past and present have recorded and endorsed it. Here's a relevant past thread mentioning it:

Sistani also endorses it.

Point is, the authenticity of this namaz in it's current form is pretty solid. The problem is, if we apply the common anti-tawassul mindset to it, then it sounds like shirk to an outsider. There are two conclusions that can be drawn from it:

1- either a lot of our past and present scholars are guilty of shirk, including Shaykh al-Qummi and Sistani (who also endorses Ya Ali Madad)

2-the common anti-tawassul mindset itself has problems

 

 

 

 

[Abu_Zahra]

28 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

I use mutawattir in a loose sense here, as in numerous scholars past and present have recorded and endorsed it.

Ok obviously that's not what it means. Tawatur as you probably know refers to the multiplicity of chains of narration. In this case I am not even aware if there is a single chain, let alone multiple ones. 

A scholar saying 'there is no objection to this' does not say anything about it's authenticity. You would get the same answer for practically any act that hasn't explicitly been prohibited.

 

[Sabrejet]

1 minute ago, Mahdavist said:

Ok obviously that's not what it means. Tawatur as you probably know refers to the multiplicity of chains of narration. In this case I am not even aware if there is a single chain, let alone multiple ones.

Ok, my mistake, I misused this word. What I should have said was: scholars endorse this.

The question is; why do they endorse this. Why do they in fact recommend it?

Answer A: they are doing shirk, and they are leading their followers to shirk, and they don't have basic knowledge of the Quran (I don't agree with this)

Answer B: they in fact do know what they are talking about, and perhaps our understanding of shirk is tainted by non-Twelver schools.

Speaking of non-Twelver schools, if you walk in front of a person who is praying deliberately or by mistake, its a huge sin; apparently, the act of prostrating while a human being is directly facing you is shirk. Doesn't matter what the intentions were. I once made this mistake while praying in a Barelvi mosque with my cousins; people weren't impressed.

[Muhammad A-H]

2 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

Namaz e Istighatha of Bibi Fatima

I heavily disagree with this namaz. I do not see how this is permissible.

[Abu_Zahra]

Just now, Sabrejet said:

The question is; why do they endorse this. Why do they in fact recommend it?

Good question and I think the brothers at iqraonline.net have covered this well in one of their articles regarding the modern day principle of Qaa'ida al Tasaamuh. You can read more about it here. 

Essentially, since it is an act that is neither obligatory nor apparently explicitly prohibited it's authenticity is not rigorously analyzed and it is leniently accepted.

Note that I have not referred to shirk at all in my posts, my position simply is that these acts do not come from the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt and have therefore either crept in from external influences or been invented from within. 

So the answer is not necessarily A or B, since I am not making allegations of shirk here. Rather I would say that like various other acts that have crept in, even if there is no real basis for it in the religion they have been somewhat leniently tolerated on the basis that they are not breaking any strict rule or guideline. 

Whether this principle was the right way to go or not, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best. Personally I think it would have been more healthy to place a stricter emphasis on remaining close to the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt and distancing ourselves from baseless practices. Perhaps this approach will be revived, seeing how far the masses have strayed from the fundamentals. 

[layman]

Salam...

Why shias make sujud to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) on a stone?

The issue is tahiir.  Our body and clothes must be cleaned, place must be tahiir and we must make sure we put our forehead during sujud on something tahiir when we make prayer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Tahiir is one condition to worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Physical and spiritually cleanliness.

We make sujud on soil from Karbala during Salah. This is to ensure the place where we make sujud is super tahiir.  Super tahiir means spiritually tahiir, because it is related to the blood of seyyedu shuhada (Imam Hussain), eventhough Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) not physically available now.  

Ahlulbayt are tahiir by the Order of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (33:33).

Shouldn't we get closer to Ahlulbayt so our Salah or prayer is easily accepted because they are muttahir (spiritually clean)?

Should we not try to bring our souls to unite with souls of Ahlulbayt...so Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) see cleanliness in us...therefore our prayer and request can easily be accepted.

Closeness to Ahlulbayt means closeness to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)....

Omar al Khattab was physically closed to Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) during early Islam,and his grave is next to the Prophet.  Was he close to Rasulullah spiritually????

Which one is better? Seeking physical or spiritual closeness to Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

We are not with Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) physically.  However, can  we get close to Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) spiritually?

Spiritual closeness to Rasulullah (saw);and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) is TAWASSUL.  It is clearest and fastest path to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in worship or seeking help.  From here we can deduce the limit of tawassul.

We all will witness the real tawassul and it's limit in the hereafter during mahsyar when everyone is thirsty and waiting to go hell or heaven.  We will be  craving for shafaat from the Prophet that time.  How about if we never done or believe in doing tawassul through him while we are alive? What is the chances to drink from the fountain of Khawthar? Or getting syafaat in the Presence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

[Abu_Zahra]

19 minutes ago, layman said:

Salam...

Why shias make sujud to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) on a stone?

Wa alaikum as salam

Because sajdah is an obligatory part of the prayers, and a recommended sunnah of the ma'soomeen (outside of prayers) and because our narrations restrict the materials on which sujood is permissible (natural materials outside of what is worn and what is eaten).

So basically, because the ma'soomeen (عليه السلام) have taught and instructed this to their followers.

The same goes for every authentic act of worship and every authentic belief. 

The moment something can't be traced back to the Qur'an or the Ahlulbayt, then you need to question where it came from and why you are practicing it.

[Cool]

1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

The moment something can't be traced back to the Qur'an or the Ahlulbayt, then you need to question where it came from and why you are practicing it.

Brother, I have one simply question, has Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or any of 12 Imams ever helped you?

[Zainuu]

9 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

Btw I've tested the Surah Kahf alarm clock part of that book: so far it has worked for me. Others might have different experiences.

Yes. This is miraculous. 

I have tried it too. Almost 8-9 months now and it always worked. The last verse right?

[Abu_Zahra]

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Brother, I have one simply question, has Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or any of 12 Imams ever helped you?

They have provided guidance ,as has the Qur'an, so I would say that yes this is certainly a great help. 

[Cool]

12 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

They have provided guidance ,as has the Qur'an, so I would say that yes this is certainly a great help. 

So Alhamdulillah, I am done with this thread. 

[Zainuu]

An add-on - Miracles on shrines and throughout history are not one, two or three but countless.

And within that there is isteghasa, Tawassul and a sort of a complaint, a munajaat etc.

Sometimes it's not even a dua from a masum or ziyarat, plain isteghasa or tawassul. No format, no formality. 

Just a language of emotion. Not even arabic.

And miracles happen. Allah listens.

We might call out 100 or 200 of them to be a story. But man they are in 1000s. We don't even know how many. Some have become a custom. Somethings which are miraculous happen so often that they are called natural.

What can anyone say about it?

[Sabrejet]

We've discussed quite a lot tawassul topics in this thread. I'll contribute more to this topic when I find some more evidence. Specifically, a tradition of Imam Jafar ((عليه السلام)) involving Ayat 9:59.

Also, a few widespread practices have yet to be discussed, such as shabeehs in general (Zuljanah, alam, ) (scholars in general haven't called them haram or questionable AFAIK).

The topic of Bab ul Hawaij hasn't been touched either; Hazrat Abbas ((عليه السلام)) isn't the only one; Ali Asghar ((عليه السلام)) and Imam Musa Kazim ((عليه السلام)) also have this specialty. Where is it written it was given to them, and due to which qualities was it given to them? I already know the answers for my personal satisfaction, but I forgot the process through which I arrived at them. I think this also needs to be discussed academically.

Quite a few practices aren't apparently in the Quran and Sunnat, and yet they are widespread. This raises a few questions; does everything related to tawalla and tabarra has to be strictly from the Quran and Sunnat? Do we have a set of general ahadith from which these specific acts can be justified?

A few more rhetorical questions: is Islam only about following letter, or both letter and spirit? Are we supposed to follow a few set of core books at face value completely literally, applying rijal first and asking questions later? Or there is more to it?

Edited January 8, 2021 by Sabrejet

[AStruggler]

@Zainuu Salaam Brother, 

I haven't read this whole thread yet but interesting question. I have been thinking about this concept lately too.

This is my current understanding and position on Tawassul: 

1. I believe that yes, tawassul is fine. I believe that we must the do it while having nothing but firm tawhid in our mind and heart.  We must obviously believe that we are asking the Ahle Bayth's help and they can only help us with the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). With the special powers, grace, and permission that Allah has granted them.
2. I am not qualified to do tafsir and nor am I making my own interpretation right now, but some others have posted those 2 ayahs already which may possibly be used to back up the concept: 5:35 and 4:64. 
3. I see it as how we ask the doctor for a cure, ask the teacher for guidance, ask our parents for help, etc. Are we committing shirk? No, we're seeking help from the other creations of Allah with a "tawhidi" intention. We know ultimately, all these means are nothing but a manifestation of Allah's mercy and blessings upon us. I believe that Allah's sovereignty and mercy encompasses these intermediaries and extra blessed pathways to Him. Ultimately, I see tawassul as nothing but asking Allah for help. 
4. As Muslims, this world and reality is a lot more for us than simply a material and only physically perceivable world. As Muslims, we already believe in unseen realities such as angels, Satan and his cronies, jinns, and other immaterial and hidden realities. Why is it so hard to believe that there are special servants of Allah, whom Allah Himself has specially chosen for viceregency and special tasks such as guarding His religion, who we may not be able to see, but who can see and help us when we reach out to them. 
5. To respond to your specific question @Zainuu about the limits of who we can do tawassul with, well, as already mentioned, it is those who Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has given special permission. As for which figures are included in this permission, I actually haven't really looked into this matter but I have personal conviction that 14 masumeen are included for sure and others of the Ahle Bayth such as Hazrat Abbas and Bibi Zainab are included too. But for specifics, I would need to ask a scholar. Also, I think the verses 3:169-170 would be relevant here. 
6. Lastly, I was just thinking, in Salaah and in the numerous Ziarah that we have, we are like directly talking to or greeting the Prophet and Ahle Bayth (a) at times. If they could not hear us, then are we speaking to the air? It would be futile to do such things in our special religious acts then, in my humble and potentially fallible opinion. Thus, if we establish that they can hear us, I don't see why we can't take it a step further and ask them to do xyz for us just like we ask our parents, obviously with tawhid in our hearts and minds. And these special servants of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) are more closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) than anyone of the likes of you and I can ever even imagine. So yeah, I believe it's a complex world and so calling it shirk to reach out to the unseen graces of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for help, could possibly even be seen as narrow-minded in a way. 

So yeah, this is my position right not but inshaAllah I may research the matter more. Also, on what you said about mazaars and dargahs and these places, I think some people do sometimes go overboard at these places. One thing is for sure, sujood is only for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), regardless of intentions, as it is an act that is seen as the epitome of submission and worship.

So brother @Zainuu and also brothers @Mahdavist and @Sabrejet, what are your thoughts on my thoughts above lol^ Would you say my reasoning is flawed in anyway? Any criticisms or differences of opinion? Please express. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by AStruggler

[layman]

8 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Wa alaikum as salam

The same goes for every authentic act of worship and every authentic belief. 

The moment something can't be traced back to the Qur'an or the Ahlulbayt, then you need to question where it came from and why you are practicing it.

I would agree if the issues concern the general Muslims as a whole. Such methods to pray, fast..ritual parts plus others (syariah or hukm). We need united ways to perform it.

There are other issues on what have been written and handled to us, but we differ at individual level.

1.  Correct understanding 

2. The right feel for it.

There was a saying that stated "if Abu Zar be exposed to what Salman know, he will be a non believer".  But, both were great companions.  Understanding differ.

What are the knowledge  that Salman know until he was declared " Salman is from Ahlulbayt ".

We all read Bismillahi Rahmaani Raheem. Are all our understanding and feel are correctly to what Rasulullah and Ahlulbayt want us to understand and feel?

I would say, unless we are doing tawassul and getting shafaat from Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)  the real understanding and correct feel for it will NOT be achieved.

If we being taught and guide directly by Ahlulbayt we will NOT be missing the real understanding and correct feel when we say Bismillahi to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).   If Rasulullah and Ahlulbayt directly guide us at our level to grasp the understanding and correct feel for it.. we will invoking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) base on the approved method.

In addition, our issues regarding religion and life are too many (at individual level) and impossible to be covered by written materials from the past.

If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have given us Ulil-Amr, then access to them will solve our personal living concerns.  Therefore tawassul and syafaat are very important aspect of a Muslim life, since Ulil-Amr are not physically available.

But, experiences like these (direct guidance by Ahlulbayt) are not to be shared in public because people may question us...where in the texts says so and these experiences are not part of shiism....so on.

There are many times when i read hadiths written by people in Shiachat confirmed my experiences (that i just kept to myself).  I did not know such texts existed.  It confirmed my belief.

My conclusion: performing tawassul and getting shafaat from Rasulullah and Ahlulbayt are important part of being a muslim, mukmin or lover of Ahlulbayt.  The shafaat that we get will make us understand better the texts that we read and handed to us, including Qur'an.

Because of that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) say Surah Al Fatiha (opening)...Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will open the path to Him (worship and seek help) if we step in on path of those He has bestowed Favors.  Tawassul and shafaat is important.

[Abu_Zahra]

7 hours ago, AStruggler said:

So brother @Zainuu and also brothers @Mahdavist and @Sabrejet, what are your thoughts on my thoughts above lol^ Would you say my reasoning is flawed in anyway? Any criticisms or differences of opinion? Please express. 

My opinion brother is that you are somehow following a reverse sequence. 

As an aspiring Shi'i, my approach is to always start with the Qur'an and the teachings of the ma'soomeen (عليه السلام), as per hadith al thaqalayn, and to learn/reach the authentic aqaid and a'maal accordingly.  

I feel what you have done above is that you have started with a selected practice, and tried to retrospectively fit it into the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt by presenting some of your own ideas, feelings and perspectives.

I would say that if these were really islamic teachings you would have reached there by starting with the thaqalayn, rather than having to somehow retrofit it through personal opinions, feelings and interpretations as @layman has done above.