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In the Name of God بسم الله

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  • Advanced Member
1 hour ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

But what exactly is Haram with Black nationalism (self-determination)? Nothing. Nobody is advocating for a Black ethno-state, where only Black people are allowed. The idea (I presume) is that predominantly black communities would be controlled by Black working-class people. There would remain a White and other minority. The only thing that changes is ownership, government. Moreover, I presume being a Shia you generally support Iran and Hizbullah as fighting for the oppressed.  Is this not nationalism?

Perhaps there could be a layer of misunderstanding when words aren't defined which causes me to go to the google definition of black nationalism i.e a separate black nation. As for the black nationalism you are referring to I couldn't disagree anymore, that is an issue which is unpragmatic and problematic for a number of reasons, and dare I say privileged in the case of the black people.

According to the 2019 Census there are 41.99 million black Americans, now compare that to the 236.5 million white American population from that same Census, if you want to talk about equity and equality there is none of it within your proposed idea, respectfully. Considering that you are seeking to have such a minority rule over a majority, and don't worry I am not creating a strawman here, you may say that you just want them controlling 'their own communities'. Brother, what kind of solution is this? That entire proposition and outlook is the reason for setback, if you break these race barriers through one or two generations communities would evolve and if blacks, whites, and others were to intermingle within communities the issue of unfair funding would be drastically reduced, because white communities will no longer be 'white communities', perhaps by majority, because they are the majority, but  all races will be dispersed into said communities, therefore, the matter of supporting any type of nationalist/black group is a cause that doesn't fight against oppression, rather it stagnates the real fight against systemic racism. 

If you really want to deal with systemic racism to the core then you would throw identity politics in the garbage bin where it belongs and address the matter as a holistic issue, without any race barriers and white privilege shaming. The issue is the human being, the selfishness and entitlement of mankind where they want to even hog 'victimhood' and seek to blame others for their misfortunate, albeit true in the past times have changed and the cling for victimhood is a yearning for entitlement, the irony is those who scream privilege are the most privileged and those who call for unity, fairness, and justice for all are the peacemakers, don't get lost between these heathens and their idiocrasy, they want things to go their way but we as lovers, peacemakers, and above all Muslims will do things on our terms, our standards, and our way. 

1 hour ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

 

Also, I don't like this postulation of "using our own language" because you clearly use Christian phrases that don't make sense Islamically. The only difference is you replace "God" with "Allah". I tried to not point it out initially and give benefit of the doubt, but it's seriously bugging me.

I am sorry if it bugs you, because I will keep using it. As I said language is constantly evolving, as society changes and that which was moral is seen as backwards, that which was abhorrent is seen as the new trend, I think it is great that as believers in Allah we as Muslims and Christians can come to common terms on such usage of language, there were a plethora of verses I refrained from sharing while making prior points as I believe you are well acquainted with the Quran and can fill the dots yourself, however, this point of language you make should be casted upon the idea of the Quranic truth and the reality is us coming together commonly in our language usage with the Ahlul-Kitab is a clear indication of what was partially meant in [3:64]

http://www.everyayah.com/data/images_png/3_64.png

Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]."

If my language is bugging you then know that there are many matters which I advise you to reconsider, always address them with your Islamic identity and be firm on your beliefs in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and the reality which is His word and the fabrications which are their words. 

2 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

I also want to warn about the following line of thinking, because I embarrassed myself heavily in my recent past through this line of think:

You embarrassed yourself by believing an Islamic marriage is between a man and woman?

I have no interest in discussing this reality with any secularist, they can define marriage however they please. 

2 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Do not ignore context and get too sucked in. My bad habit of saying we worship the same God, and it caused me to say something incredibly offensive. I was in a group with an Aboriginal girl, and the philosophy classes discussion briefly went on where someone suggested that Christians wanted to impose their god onto Aboriginals. My dumb self said (poorly said): "nah they believe in the same oneness of God, so it was more about imposing beliefs". Why was I sticking up for Christians? This is completely untrue first of all, and secondly, people don't have the same base assumptions as I do, so it came off very offensive. I didn't even see her the rest of the semester, so I felt incredibly bad. She looked horrified. The residential schools in Canada were funded by the Catholic church, and the genocide of Indigenous peoples was justified on the basis of imposing White culture and Christ on them.

I think my point is being missed here, I am not defending Christian actions, however, I see theological common ground in which these painful realities would not only be scrutinized, but strictly condemned. Religion is a very powerful element and can oftentimes be misused to severe hurt the creation of Allah, therefore, the idea of judging Christians by white colonialists is not the criterion I have set, rather it is judging the Christians by the universal belief in a kingdom in which all the inhabitants of God reside under. Such as a state in which there are Muslims and the Christians living under one law and they fall under the Jizya - this indicates that there is a realm of commonality which allows us to reside alongside one another. Don't think of it too badly either, sure what you said could have been harsh or offensive, you certainly didn't mean it in that context and if she was so 'horrified' she could have spoken to you directly or given you a chance to remedy what you said. 

2 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

The Christians that get political nowadays absolutely despise Islam, and they are not an academic bunch. They maintain that X is a sin, but they always fall into presentism traps. They are probably the worst 'allies' to ever want. E.g. conflating homosexual actions with same-sex attraction

So, you are willing to work with Black nationalists, communists/socialists, lgbt, feminists, and whatever ilk follows and not instead seek to work with serious Christians to the likes of James White and William Lane Craig who are more temperate and understanding of our differences and also hold a firm stance against the idea of same sex action, but not attraction as exemplified by the debate James White had with two Lgbt pastors. It seems that you have chosen to bite into the narrative they have painted through the use of identity politics and mainstream media propaganda, could these same Christians not equally say, 'Oh, we can't work with these Muslims they absolutely despise Christianity, and they are not a civilized bunch.' + other jargon.

 

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18 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

And for those saying my support of Black Nationalism is unIslamic, you are likely in support of the over-arching system of liberalism which is the most unIslamic ideology to have ever existed, and has cause such global hegemonic and imperialistic pain, suffering, damage, and destruction to the Muslim world.

It doesn't have to be either or.

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CNN's Oliver Darcy: the "information crisis (id est  conservative social media -ed.)" . . . (is a) "national emergency" . . . (equivalent preface: things won't get better -ed.) "until our informational environment is cleaned up"

He includes Fox News and Rush Limbaugh.

33seconds

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7ylio6

 

Edited by hasanhh
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@AmirioTheMuzzy My dear brother thank you for this dialogue, I certainly learned a great deal and enjoyed reading your valued perspective. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless you and your dear family and I pray that Allah forgives me for any shortcomings or erroneous statements I may have certainly made. 

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10 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

@AmirioTheMuzzy My dear brother thank you for this dialogue, I certainly learned a great deal and enjoyed reading your valued perspective. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless you and your dear family and I pray that Allah forgives me for any shortcomings or erroneous statements I may have certainly made. 

And to you the same dear brother... May Allah bless you and forgive my shortcomings and erroneous statements.

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Chancellor Merkel described the Twits banning Trump "problematic", which for her is a strong statement according to the DeutscheWelle analysis. DW also reported that other European leaders do not like it -it is censorship. 

Opine: from the way this was reported, FaceBook and Twitter are going to have problems in the EU.

Edited by hasanhh
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5 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Chancellor Merkel described the Twits banning Trump "problematic", which for her is a strong statement according to the DeutscheWelle analysis. DW also reported that other European leaders do not like it -it is censorship. 

Opine: from the way this was reported, FaceBook and Twitter are going to have problems in the EU.

Jimmy Dore:

 

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This video highlights how Trump has used much worse violent rhetoric (threatening bombings and hitjobs) against Iran, Syria, and other ME countries. It also highlights the hypocrisy of how it's okay for U.S. politicians to post pictures of themselves with coup leaders of foreign nations, praising these foreign coups, but once it's a coup against the U.S. (their own country), then it suddenly becomes wrong.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
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How badly BLM protestors were treated compared to Trump Capitol Rioters:

Context: Biden is passing a law on 'domestic terrorism'

Edit: the video also describes what might become a new war on terror (increased authoritarianism), judging by the comparative language being used to discuss the event.

Note: Richard Medhurst himself is a leftist anti-imperialist (+ independent journalist, Christian, Syrian), who in this video is critiquing the "boutique left" for sounding like neocons. See the following tweet to know what he means by the Boutique Left.

 

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
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6 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

How badly BLM protestors were treated compared to Trump Capitol Rioters:

This narrative is false. BLM/ANTIFA were heavily promoted by the MSM and MAGA demonised as a bunch of racist, toxic, white, privileged males. Just look at the manner in which the MSM narrated BLM/ANTIFA, describing them as largely peaceful protests, subsidising artwork and hagiography in memory of George Floyd (including portrayals of this drugged lowlife as a haloed “saint”), etc. Major corporations have promoted BLM/ANTIFA alongside feminism, open borders, sexual degeneracy, anti-Christian polemics, and so on. The Establishment’s anti-Trump chorus has been deafening since day one. Unfortunately, Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood promoted the DNC and BLM/ANTIFA in order to “take down” white Western Christendom on behalf of Zionist-financed identity politics; just look at the biased, pro-BLM/-ANTIFA coverage on Tasnim, PressTV, ABNA, et al. Even the Supreme Leader of Iran has tweeted in favour of BLM and has spoken about how blacks are supposedly treated much worse than white Christians in the U.S. At least Russia stood and continues to stand for traditional values against Zionist-spawned identity politics, whereas Iran and China adopted them to “get even” with white Christendom. If the Iranian government had any sense of traditional values, it would be standing with Trump’s base against the neoliberal/neocon Establishment, not siding with the anti-Christian Satanists in power.

Edited by Northwest
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@NorthwestDid you even care to watch the video? It discusses the police brutality faced by peaceful protestors including the disabled, and how they had brought in the national guard.

Also, Trump is a neo-con, who made the biggest arms deal with KSA to bomb Yemen, he assassinated Suleimani, constantly threatened to bomb Iran, asserting that Jerusalem and the occupation of the Golan Heights region of Syria are Israeli, and much more that I can't even think of right now. Trump is not anti-establishment, aside from his rhetoric being less covert than theirs.

As for Antifa, nobody thinks they're peaceful, and they were seriously condemned by the media. But, importantly, violence is not in itself immoral. They were using violence as a political tool against facism, as they saw the state doing nothing. It is a challenge to the state's monopoly on violence.

As for corporations, they'll support anything that makes them customers and money, they are driven by profit. Corporations also control the media and fund wars. What is your point? "Feminism, open borders, sexual degeneracy, anti-Christian polemics" is your opinion, it's subjective. It's also telling as to your inclusion of open borders in that list, when it's seemingly irrelevant to it. 

Hearing your perception of George Floyd, you'd think that he is a tyrant oppressor and not simply a street criminal. He died at the hands of police brutality. You're the type to mourn a president's death. Pathetic. 

You keep throwing around terms that you fail to define and it seems more of a tool to make you rhetoric sound better, such as "traditional values". Regardless, we don't follow "traditional values" as purported by the West and Christianity. Moreover, why is BLM considered "identity politics" as opposed to anything else, why is identity politics a bad thing, and what does it have to do with Israeli funding. This last claim is ridiculous on its face, as I can't imagine Zionists supporting BLM. Show me proof of Israeli or Zionist funding, because I have never seen any.

Nobody here wants to hear your clueless take on national and international politics, kuffar. I say this, because you almost position it as if it's a Muslim take. Alas, you're just a Trump supporter and right-winger faking nuance.

I swear I'm logging off of ShiaChat. It's making me a terrible and angry person.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
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20 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Also, Trump is a neo-con, who made the biggest arms deal with KSA to bomb Yemen, he assassinated Suleimani, constantly threatened to bomb Iran, asserting that Jerusalem and the occupation of the Golan Heights region of Syria are Israeli, and much more that I can't even think of right now. Trump is not anti-establishment, aside from his rhetoric being less covert than theirs.

20 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

As for Antifa, nobody thinks they're peaceful, and they were seriously condemned by the media. But, importantly, violence is not in itself immoral. They were using violence as a political tool against fascism, as they saw the state doing nothing. It is a challenge to the state's monopoly on violence.

Anarchistic violence is hardly effective against the fascist state, and only allows the authorities to demonise a broader movement, thereby facilitating a full-spectrum crackdown. One needs to develop a broad-based, well-organised, focused mass movement that is determined, disciplined, and armed, not a small number of cells that engage in high-profile, indiscriminate looting, vandalism, etc.

20 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

As for corporations, they'll support anything that makes them customers and money, they are driven by profit. Corporations also control the media and fund wars. What is your point? "Feminism, open borders, sexual degeneracy, anti-Christian polemics" is your opinion, it's subjective. It's also telling as to your inclusion of open borders in that list, when it's seemingly irrelevant to it. 

Zionists such as Soros are well known for financing all of the above and manipulating Islamic and other movements.

20 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Hearing your perception of George Floyd, you'd think that he is a tyrant oppressor and not simply a street criminal. He died at the hands of police brutality. You're the type to mourn a president's death. Pathetic.

My point is that he was a street criminal and that the MSM were turning him into some sort of martyr for ulterior motives.

Also, I neither “mourn” nor condone a president’s death.

20 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

You keep throwing around terms that you fail to define and it seems more of a tool to make you rhetoric sound better, such as "traditional values". Regardless, we don't follow "traditional values" as purported by the West and Christianity.

My argument is the same as that of @Mohammad313Ali on this matter.

20 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Moreover, why is BLM considered "identity politics" as opposed to anything else, why is identity politics a bad thing, and what does it have to do with Israeli funding. This last claim is ridiculous on its face, as I can't imagine Zionists supporting BLM. Show me proof of Israeli or Zionist funding, because I have never seen any.

Quote

The Open Society Foundations has announced that they are giving Black Lives Matter and other Black organizations $220 million. Soros has already given Black Lives Matter ... $33 million. ... The NY Times reported Mr. Soros’s group will invest $150 million in grants for Black-led racial justice groups, and another $70 million toward local grants for criminal justice reform and civic engagement opportunities. ... Of the $220 million, the foundation will invest $150 million in five-year grants for selected groups, including progressive and emerging organizations like the Black Voters Matter Fund and Repairers of the Breach, a group founded by the Rev. Dr. William J. Barber II of the Poor People’s Campaign. The money will also support more established Black civil rights organizations like the Equal Justice Initiative, which was founded by the civil rights lawyer Bryan Stevenson and depicted in the 2019 movie “Just Mercy.” ...  The Open Society Foundations will invest an additional $70 million in local grants supporting changes to policing and criminal justice. This money will also be used to pay for opportunities for civic engagement [protests and riots] and to organize internships and political training for young people. –Source

In 2007, Soros wrote, “I am not a Zionist, nor am I am a practicing Jew, but I have a great deal of sympathy for my fellow Jews and a deep concern for the survival of Israel.”Source

 

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12 minutes ago, Northwest said:

Anarchistic violence is hardly effective against the fascist state, and only allows the authorities to demonise a broader movement, thereby facilitating a full-spectrum crackdown. One needs to develop a broad-based, well-organised, focused mass movement that is determined, disciplined, and armed, not a small number of cells that engage in high-profile, indiscriminate looting, vandalism, etc.

True. I think the goals of anarchists is more to cause fear into the state, i.e. terrorism, though not in a pejorative sense. I need to make it abundantly clear that I don't support antifa in any way.

I very much hate George Soros and Zionism, so now I know for sure that I will never support BLM as an organization. They are not a revolutionary movement by accepting this money. Not that they ever were, but yeah.

Edit: again, apologies for earlier comments

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
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2 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

I swear I'm logging off of ShiaChat. It's making me a terrible and angry person.

Don't log-away, and you can calm yourself down.

l do not agree with the more recent, violent BLM and cannot understand how anyone without a Romantic, storm-the-barricades, nothing-will-happen-to-me attitude -because it can and likely will- side with street violence and temper-tantrum political rhetoric. Remember Napoleon's "whiff of grapeshot" comment of self-pride?

Google images for:

storm the baricades

whiff of grapeshot

Google: "13 Vendeniaire"

Personally, l find nothing Romantic about blood in the streets.

Edited by hasanhh
sentence completion
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l am watching the House debate on lmpeachment.

Most of it has been partisan platitudes.

Yet, one Congressman has made a good point:  paraphrase: The House may not like what happen on January 6th, but maybe the Democrats now realize that riots are not good as they did last Summer.

The nutworks are rarely displaying the Members-of-Congress names.

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Rep. Mast (R-Fla) used his time to ask one question:

Has any one of these rioters been brought to the House floor and asked if he rioted because President Trump asked him to ?

Then he stood silent for ~half a minute and then commented about getting no answer. Then he yielded back.

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Roll Call Voting in Progress

Resolved: Donald John Trump to be lmpeached for lncitement of lnsurrection

at 16:05EST the vote is 125 Yea 125 Nay 183Not voted with 2 minutes to go.

Time Expired at 16:07EST

Simple Majority required by 218 Yeas

Results  at ~16:25

231 Yea  197 Nay   5 Not Voting (1 Democrat, 4 Republicans)

Republicans voting Yea: 10

Trump is lmpeached

Edited by hasanhh
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2 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Don't log-away, and you can calm yourself down.

My problem was with his dismissal of it all. "George Floyd was no angel" rhetoric.

George Floyd shopped at the store for over a year with no issue. He was a reformed criminal and a community leader.

As for his numerous prior crimes and sentences... Prisoners become institutionalized (used to the brutality of prison life, and used to being controlled), and it is difficult for convicts to find employment and deal with the freedom to fail when they return to civilian life, so they reoffend in order to return to prison, as they have sadly grown accustomed to being controlled and given the most basic of necessities, despite recognizing the constant anxiety, danger, and fights they faced in prison. It takes a lot to snap out of it and change.

Regardless, Floyd is a victim of a system, he is a victim of the police, and as such is a martyr. Imagine if we treated great revolutionary heroes by their past actions to which they repented. Malcolm X was a criminal, but he found the NOI in prison, and he reformed himself.

Now to come in and tell Muslims that our leaders are painting the wrong picture of Floyd, based on his own understanding, is ridiculous. Even if Floyd was still engaging in criminal activities, it would never justify what the police did, and it would hardly detract from what he represented at that moment. Plus, consider repentance to God and benefit of the doubt given to regular people, which Muslims love to stress. He was a street criminal, not a tyrant ruler.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
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2 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Regardless, Floyd is a victim of a system, he is a victim of the police, and as such is a martyr. Imagine if we treated great revolutionary heroes by their past actions to which they repented. Malcolm X was a criminal, but he found the NOI in prison, and he reformed himself.

YGTBK

To be more specific . . .

2 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Floyd is a victim of a system, No, he was not.

he is a victim of the police, True and by a policeman who knew him personally.

and as such is a martyr.Which is it? "Victim" or "martyr"?

Imagine if we treated great revolutionary heroes by their past actions to which they repented. Huh? Calculation and thought were their element of commonality. The resignation or even desire for "prison credentials" is part of rebellious behavior.

Malcolm X was a criminal, l do not remember this. What and/or Where?

Added: Expand to read entire reply.

Edited by hasanhh
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For people that think that ethnicity doesn't make a difference to the opportunities that people get:

Quote

Twenty-five percent of black candidates received callbacks from their whitened resumes, while only 10% got calls when they left ethnic details intact. Among Asians, 21% got calls if they used whitened resumes, whereas only 11.5% heard back if they sent resumes with racial references.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hbsworkingknowledge/2017/05/17/minorities-who-whiten-resumes-get-more-job-interviews/?sh=7e777aa57b74

Quote

“Adam” received 12 positive responses and four inquiries from headhunters, but “Mohamed” only won four positive responses and two inquiries.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/candidates-with-muslimsounding-names-three-times-more-likely-to-be-passed-over-for-jobs-a3459141.html

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42 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

YGTBK

To be more specific . . .

3 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Floyd is a victim of a system, No, he was not.

he is a victim of the police, True and by a policeman who knew him personally.

and as such is a martyr.Which is it? "Victim" or "martyr"?

Imagine if we treated great revolutionary heroes by their past actions to which they repented. Huh? Calculation and thought were their element of commonality. The resignation or even desire for "prison credentials" is part of rebellious behavior.

Malcolm X was a criminal, l do not remember this. What and/or Where?

Expand  

Added: Expand to read entire reply.

"Floyd is a victim of a system, No, he was not." <--- Subjective. Also, had he been White you think he would have been killed?

"he is a victim of the police, True and by a policeman who knew him personally." <--- So? He knows the offer in his community. It doesn't mean they were friends or that the officer's response was any less racially biased.

"and as such is a martyr. Which is it? "Victim" or "martyr"?" <--- when innocent people die, do we, in the Muslim community, do we not call them martyrs?

"Huh? Calculation and thought were their element of commonality." <---   True, this is why we love these leaders, because of their intelligence, speech, and contributions to humanity. My point is that their detractors routinely use that person's past against them to dismiss their movement and cause -- it's like a one and done, distract and dismiss and ignore all else. 

"The resignation or even desire for "prison credentials" is part of rebellious behavior." <---  This is fantasy. Nobody thinks like this. Street cred for street gangs, sure. Prison cred is an aftermath. Nobody wants to go to prison. Many people are willing to gamble on it though, as they fail to realize how serious it is, and wrongly assume they'll be chilling with their friends in there, not considering how their freedom will be taken away.

"Malcolm X was a criminal, l do not remember this. What and/or Where?" <---    It is common knowledge that he served 6 years in prison, from 1946 to 1952. He and four accomplices committed a series of burglaries targeting wealthy white families, and was charged with larceny.

From what I remember that lead to his criminality...

In 1931, Malcolm's dad was killed by white racists, and in 1938, his mom suffered a nervous breakdown and was sent to a mental hospital. He became a foster child and was the only black kid in his school. Malcolm X was very good at orating, and expressed interest in being a lawyer. His teacher shot this idea down saying something along the lines of "Nobody would hire you as a lawyer. I think a carpenter is a good job for a n-gger". It is said that something changed in him from that moment on, and he decided to become a 'thug'. Pimping, gambling, robbing, racketeering. He was strongly atheist, but the Nation's teachings made sense to him, and he renounced his past and converted to the Nation of Islam while in prison in 1948, writing a letter to Elijah Muhammad. (He also started the 5 daily prayers and he quit pork and smoking). In 1950, the FBI opened a file on Malcolm X, and in 1952 they began to monitor him 24/7, with his phone tapped, and his letters intercepted.

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1 hour ago, Muhammed Ali said:

For people that think that ethnicity doesn't make a difference to the opportunities that people get:

l have a jewish sounding name. l have also run my own experiment(s).

The one l remember most goes this way: l'd mail ordered things back in circa 1980.

Five times l'd use my full name. Five times l'd drop one letter out. All ten times l'd pre-pay with a money order. The five where l dropped a letter out l got everything l ordered. The five where l used my full spelling, three times l got what l ordered. For the missing two, l wrote the companies and later get a letter back saying they had no record of my order. Subjective explanation: For those two, the two people who opened the order tossed it and the money.

Edited by hasanhh
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Yarrabi. 0kay . . .

3 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

"Floyd is a victim of a system, No, he was not." <--- Subjective. Also, had he been White you think he would have been killed? YES

"he is a victim of the police, True and by a policeman who knew him personally." <--- So? He knows the offer in his community. It doesn't mean they were friends or that the officer's response was any less racially biased. What is "the offer"?

"and as such is a martyr. Which is it? "Victim" or "martyr"?" <--- when innocent people die, do we, in the Muslim community, do we not call them martyrs? "lnnocent" is a legal presumption. Not an actual one.

"Huh? Calculation and thought were their element of commonality." <---   True, this is why we love these leaders, because of their intelligence, speech, and contributions to humanity. My point is that their detractors routinely use that person's past against them to dismiss their movement and cause -- it's like a one and done, distract and dismiss and ignore all else.  Who does not have 'detractors?"

"The resignation or even desire for "prison credentials" is part of rebellious behavior." <---  This is fantasy No, it is not  a fantasy.

Expand to read ltalicized  responses.

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4 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

I meant to write "officer not "offer".

What l remember is they both knew each other from some place. Let me look.

BRB.

They both worked as bouncers at the El Neuvo Rodeo club. Owner said Floyd was inside and Chauvin was outside. Apparently they had had a "bumped heads" argument.

Edited by hasanhh
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