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In the Name of God بسم الله

imam ali narrates more hadith in sunni books than in shia books?

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zahralzu

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33 minutes ago, zahralzu said:

Calling upon ahlulbayt with the belief that they're god is shirk and kufr; happy? But calling upon the wasilah of God; the devinely appointed walis of God, isn't.

Yes, it is. Calling upon anything other than Allah as an intermediary is prohibited by the Qur'an. You can argue against it, but you'd have to argue from a Qur'anic standpoint. It won't end well because this concept of asking from other than Allah with the usage of intermediaries isn't allowed by the Qur'an, especially when someone is dead.

33 minutes ago, zahralzu said:

This is NOT like the christians, because christians say 'oh jesus' believing jesus is god; but we don't believe ali is god when we say 'ya ali'

So instead of saying Ya Allah, you say Ya 'Ali? Doesn't make any sense to me. That is the direct meaning of shirk. You're calling upon other than Allah. It doesn't matter what label you give it or how you put it - it is SHIRK by definition of the Qur'an and how it's described. You can explain all you'd like, but no amount of explanation for can justify what Allah prohibits.

33 minutes ago, zahralzu said:

You can't claim it's like idol worship, because Allah never divinely appointed these idols, rather, the people took these idols as gods and invoked their names, but the key difference is we do this with those god himself appointed, whereas the idolaters and wrongdoers do this without permission from god; against god, besides god, or beside god's will, ie. من دون الله

Let's assume for the sake of argument this is true. Let's assume 'Ali and his progeny were divinely appointed. What the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in China? How is this related? The Messenger was divinely appointed! Nobody asked for his wasīlah after he died. Nobody from among the Ahlul Bayt. Where does this concept even come from? They knew that the Qur'an and Sunnah prohibited this. That's why they didn't do it. You're arguing from a pointless cause.

Why ask from 'Ali and his progeny instead of the Messenger? Is he not greater and closer to Allah than 'Ali will ever be? It doesn't make sense. There's a missing link that can't be explained and is explained through loopholes. It's not productive.

33 minutes ago, zahralzu said:

this idol worship is NOT istigatha or tawasil or shafa'a of the shias; because we don't believe that the ahlulbayt recieve shafa'a independent from god

Doesn't matter. Calling upon other than Allah is shirk. Argue with the Qur'an. Not me.

33 minutes ago, zahralzu said:

please don't project what you believe we believe upon us and insist we believe in what we clearly explained to you we really don't.

Calling upon other than Allah is shirk by definition. If you say Ya 'Ali, Ya Hussein, Ya Dingleberry Humpernickle, that's shirk. It doesn't matter what spin you put on it - it's shirk.

33 minutes ago, zahralzu said:

f you want to believe in talking to God directly like how the christians believe they spoke to God directly; that god came down in human form to speak directly, go for it! We however don't believe allah ever spoke to us directly, we believe he used divinely appointed individuals as mediums to send his messages through, and spoke to the prophets through gabriel; the medium between allah and his messengers

Shows that you don't know the Qur'an - a common thing I encounter among Shi'a. "Spoke to the Prophets through Gabriel" - Musa? Ibrahim? Sure, it's common, but it's not always the case.

Errr... Christians don't believe in talking to God directly. They use Jesus as an intermediary. While it's certain you don't know your own Qur'an and by extension your religion, it's not wise to speak on the Christian faith. No Muslim believes that Allah came down to speak except when it was towards Musa - and this was for speaking to him directly and not entering in creation. Disbelieving in this makes you a kafir, because Allah mentions that He does this in the Qur'an with regards to Nabī Musa. So... you might really want to look into learning your Qur'an. Googling verses and knowing the translation from Arabic-Farsi-Urdu-English doesn't help you. It shows you lack understanding and argue from ignorance.

33 minutes ago, zahralzu said:

Think of it as a big company; when you walk into the building you don't speak to the CEO directly; rather, you speak with the receptionist or secretary, and they then convey your message to the CEO. but speaking to the secretary does not mean you've replaced the CEO with the secretary. So think of the ahlulbayt as the reception. This is not to say that we don't also call upon allah directly, but we have hadiths in our books that encourage invoking him through his beloved walis, these hadiths are our hujja.

I don't know why you gave that ridiculous example. Allah isn't limited. There's a reason why He always states He's the All-Seeing, All-Hearing. There's a reason why He rhetorically asks who can intercede... except through him. Go back and learn the Qur'an, sister. Don't argue from translation and your own interpretation. Do your own research. Learn the Arabic language. Stop arguing from ignorance, especially when it is about the book of Allah. 

Edited by Nightclaw
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On 1/9/2021 at 12:21 PM, Nightclaw said:

Yes, it is. Calling upon anything other than Allah as an intermediary is prohibited by the Qur'an. You can argue against it, but you'd have to argue from a Qur'anic standpoint. It won't end well because this concept of asking from other than Allah with the usage of intermediaries isn't allowed by the Qur'an, especially when someone is dead.

So instead of saying Ya Allah, you say Ya 'Ali? Doesn't make any sense to me. That is the direct meaning of shirk. You're calling upon other than Allah. It doesn't matter what label you give it or how you put it - it is SHIRK by definition of the Qur'an and how it's described. You can explain all you'd like, but no amount of explanation for can justify what Allah prohibits.

Let's assume for the sake of argument this is true. Let's assume 'Ali and his progeny were divinely appointed. What the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in China? How is this related? The Messenger was divinely appointed! Nobody asked for his wasīlah after he died. Nobody from among the Ahlul Bayt. Where does this concept even come from? They knew that the Qur'an and Sunnah prohibited this. That's why they didn't do it. You're arguing from a pointless cause.

Why ask from 'Ali and his progeny instead of the Messenger? Is he not greater and closer to Allah than 'Ali will ever be? It doesn't make sense. There's a missing link that can't be explained and is explained through loopholes. It's not productive.

Doesn't matter. Calling upon other than Allah is shirk. Argue with the Qur'an. Not me.

Calling upon other than Allah is shirk by definition. If you say Ya 'Ali, Ya Hussein, Ya Dingleberry Humpernickle, that's shirk. It doesn't matter what spin you put on it - it's shirk.

Shows that you don't know the Qur'an - a common thing I encounter among Shi'a. "Spoke to the Prophets through Gabriel" - Musa? Ibrahim? Sure, it's common, but it's not always the case.

Errr... Christians don't believe in talking to God directly. They use Jesus as an intermediary. While it's certain you don't know your own Qur'an and by extension your religion, it's not wise to speak on the Christian faith. No Muslim believes that Allah came down to speak except when it was towards Musa - and this was for speaking to him directly and not entering in creation. Disbelieving in this makes you a kafir, because Allah mentions that He does this in the Qur'an with regards to Nabī Musa. So... you might really want to look into learning your Qur'an. Googling verses and knowing the translation from Arabic-Farsi-Urdu-English doesn't help you. It shows you lack understanding and argue from ignorance.

I don't know why you gave that ridiculous example. Allah isn't limited. There's a reason why He always states He's the All-Seeing, All-Hearing. There's a reason why He rhetorically asks who can intercede... except through him. Go back and learn the Qur'an, sister. Don't argue from translation and your own interpretation. Do your own research. Learn the Arabic language. Stop arguing from ignorance, especially when it is about the book of Allah. 

You’re basing your entire premise to the point of confirmation bias and closed-minded stubbornness of the fact that If you say Ya *insert name other than Allah* Madad other than Allah it is Shirk.

But here’s where your argument and your understanding of Shirk is so loose and all over the place that I question what school of thought amongst the Four Sunni Schools of Thought you adhere to that has this faulty understanding of Shirk on top of questioning your mental stability.

For a Professor of The Arabic Language you’re either being blissfully or willfully ignorant of the fact that there are 99 names of Allah. What does the 99 names of Allah have to do with your entire premise of saying Ya *insert name other than Allah* Madad is Shirk? Well, mostly everything that you said really.

For a Professor of The Arabic Language you fail to explain the way how the Arabic Grammar works. For example, Al-Ali is one of the 99 names of Allah. It is the 36th Name of Allah. Transliterations may differ from Al-Alee to Al-Aliyy but the result is the same in terms of Arabic pronouncation. According to The Arabic Grammar by Arabic Linguists the Ya cancels the Al. Hence Ya Ali Madad. But, because there existed a man named Ali it is all of a sudden Shirk to say Ya Ali Madad based on your understanding so far. Let’s take it a step further. There exists a Muslim boy name known as Malik and one of the 99 names of Allah is Al-Malik. So if one says Ya Malik Madad are they committing an act of Shirk?

If you don’t see the problem in your logic then let me elaborate it to you. How do you know with absolute certainty that what Muslims are doing when they say Ya *insert one of the 99 names of Allah* is truly Shirk? Can you read minds oh Professor of Arabic who is somehow being blissfully ignorant of the 99 names of Allah? Can you read and decipher the hearts of human beings with absolute certainty? If you say yes to any of my questions then I’d reconsider re-evaluating your school of thought’s loose interpretation of Shirk on top of your mental health.

There are Muslim Men named after the 99 names of Allah such as Rahmaan, Malik, Ali etc. That is a Fact. Is it Shirk to name your child after one of the 99 names of Allah? If Ya Ali Madad is forbidden then reciting any of the names that falls under the 99 names of Allah should be forbidden to say in “Ya ___ Madad” form. Nor should we ever name Muslim children after one of the 99 names of Allah. Ali is a Forbidden name. Malik is a Forbidden name. Rahmaan is a Forbidden name etc.

I’m pretty sure this is a form of Logical Fallacy.

It wouldn’t make a difference if saying Ya Ali Madad is Shirk. You can say Ya Rahmaan Madad. Ya Mumeetu Madad. Ya Malik Madad. All of them are 99 names of Allah. And by your logic they are all Forbidden to say as such.

Speaking of 99 names of Allah oh Professor of The Arabic Language, do you say Ya Al-*insert 99 names of Allah* Madad?

It’s sad that for a Professor of The Arabic Language a Kindergartener Muslim who’s first learning step to study Islam is to learn about the 99 names of Allah in Arabic and was taught the Arabic Grammar of the Ya cancelling the Al by Arabic Linguists knows more than you.

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2 hours ago, Guest Ali said:

According to The Arabic Grammar by Arabic Linguists the Ya cancels the Al.

This isn't even true. What about Ya Al-Hayy or Ya al-Qayyum? Ya al-Malik? The "Ya" doesn't cancel out the Alif Lam. This isn't something in the Arabic language and I'm not sure where you've got this from. The Shi'a don't say 'Ya 'Ali' or 'Ya Fatimah' as reference to Allah's name. They say it as a form of intercession, as they've admitted. This argument is more plausible than this absurd one of grammar that you've put forth.

If such is the opposite, give me evidence that the "ya" cancels the alif lam.

By the by, calling on other than Allah is shirk according to the Qur'an, not the Sunni definition. 

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1 hour ago, Nightclaw said:

This isn't even true. What about Ya Al-Hayy or Ya al-Qayyum? Ya al-Malik? The "Ya" doesn't cancel out the Alif Lam. This isn't something in the Arabic language and I'm not sure where you've got this from. The Shi'a don't say 'Ya 'Ali' or 'Ya Fatimah' as reference to Allah's name. They say it as a form of intercession, as they've admitted. This argument is more plausible than this absurd one of grammar that you've put forth.

If such is the opposite, give me evidence that the "ya" cancels the alif lam.

By the by, calling on other than Allah is shirk according to the Qur'an, not the Sunni definition. 

Put the Alif and Lam together and you get "AL" as the pronunciation. Why are you separating the letters to prove your point? I'm talking about pronunciations here when pronouncing Arabic words. According to my Hanafi Sunni Quran Teacher who's an Arab Linguist, he informed me that the 99 names of Allah are considered nouns. Al means "The" while Ya means "Oh". But what's with this misunderstanding of Arabic Grammar here if we're going to conclude with this notion that the Ya *insert 99 name of Allah* is correct while Ya Al-*insert 99 name of Allah* is not. I would like you to look at this forum and this website to see the confusion here for what exactly is being misunderstood throughout all this,

https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/7124/what-are-the-differences-between-ya-allah-vs-allahuma

This forum expresses the confusion of why say Ya Kareem, but not Ya Al-Kareem in Arabic. Al-Kareem is one of the 99 names of Allah. Similarly, this logic applies to Ali, Malik, and Rahmaan along with the rest of the 99 names of Allah so your bold assertion of the Ya not canceling the Al doesn't seem to hold up based on what you've stated according to these users.

Furthermore, here's this website that discusses an interesting take on Ya,

https://understand-arabic.com/2016/03/14/vocative-particle-yaa/

Apparently, it states that When the Ya is preceded with a noun with ال , that is definite noun then اَيُّها should be inserted before.

يــأيها النَّاسُ

Translation: Oh mankind

Why? Just why?

Are Arab Linguists along with The Arabic Language itself just full of contradictions despite the context?

Furthermore, now that you bring up the topic of Intercession towards me let me elaborate furthermore for the question of whether Allah truly 100% forbid Intercession in The Quran and made it exclusive towards Himself only. That is what you're basing your whole argument on. Unfortunately, there are verses in The Quran that seems to contradict this argument. I'll use the Sahih International Translation. For example,

Quote

That Day, no intercession will benefit except [that of] one to whom the Most Merciful has given permission and has accepted his word. (Surah 20:109)

None will have [power of] intercession except he who had taken from the Most Merciful a covenant. (Surah 19:87)

He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they cannot intercede except on behalf of one whom He approves. And they, from fear of Him, are apprehensive. (Surah 21:28)

And intercession does not benefit with Him except for one whom He permits. [And those wait] until, when terror is removed from their hearts,1 they will say [to one another], "What has your Lord said?" They will say, "The truth." And He is the Most High, the Grand. (Surah 34:23)

And how many angels there are in the heavens whose intercession will not avail at all except [only] after Allah has permitted [it] to whom He wills and approves. (Surah 53:26)

Indeed, your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne, arranging the matter [of His creation]. There is no intercessor except after His permission. That is Allah, your Lord, so worship Him. Then will you not remember? (Surah 10:3)

So which is it? Does Allah allow Intercession or not? Is Intercession truly exclusive to Him and Him Alone or Not Quite? How do you make sense out of these verses in The Quran that seem to suggest the otherwise of what you base your whole argument of? Remember I'm using The Sahih International Translation of The Quran.

The word "Except", "However", and "But" are big words. They imply a "Well Actually" sentiment.

It's similar to saying, "I don't like felines at all. Well actually I do like Lions. They're pretty cool looking."

Did Allah just contradict Himself with these verses? I mean let's look at the other verses in The Quran that support your line of reasoning,

Quote

And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided. (Surah 2:48)

And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, and no compensation will be accepted from it, nor will any intercession benefit it, nor will they be aided. (Surah 2:123)

O you who have believed, spend from that which We have provided for you before there comes a Day in which there is no exchange [i.e., ransom] and no friendship and no intercession. And the disbelievers - they are the wrongdoers. (Surah 2:254)

Say, "To Allah belongs [the right to allow] intercession entirely. To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. Then to Him you will be returned." (Surah 39:44)

What is happening?

Just for the record, I'm neither Shia nor a Sunni. Just a Muslim who's trying to understand all the schools of thought of Islam. So I'm not on anyone's side here. I'm confused. My teacher was wrong?

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1 hour ago, Guest Ali said:

But what's with this misunderstanding of Arabic Grammar here if we're going to conclude with this notion that the Ya *insert 99 name of Allah* is correct while Ya Al-*insert 99 name of Allah* is not. 

Omission when pronouncing ال happens during definite cases, not indefinite. 

الله لا اله الا هو الحي القيم

If you read that as "huwa hayu qayyum" - that's wrong. You have to pronounce ال if you're referring to an indefinite article. Omission ruling of its pronunciation states that it needs to be definite, not indefinite. That's why Allah's names are pronounced with لْ unless the sentence is conjugated different. When calling upon him, using يا, you have to pronounce the ال. You don't say Yallah when reading يا الله. You don't say Yahayu when reading يا الحي. If you've been reading Qur'an like that, then you've been reading it wrong. Everything you said concerning this is wrong. You state he's an Arab linguistic, bring him or ask him concerning this. I want to see his reasoning or if you are misrepresenting him. If he's a linguist with regards to the Arabic language, he shouldn't be making these mistakes. Bring him or get his words, word for word.

1 hour ago, Guest Ali said:

which is it? Does Allah allow Intercession or not? Is Intercession truly exclusive to Him and Him Alone or Not Quite? How do you make sense out of these verses in The Quran that seem to suggest the otherwise of what you base your whole argument of? Remember I'm using The Sahih International Translation of The Quran

You're misunderstanding the Qur'an or you don't know it at all. Allah allows for intercession, but asks rhetorically. I'm not going to give an Arabic lesson here. Go do your research with regards to this. 

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On 1/7/2021 at 2:31 PM, Nightclaw said:

If you haven't cursed any companions, you're either lying or not a Twelver. If you've never said "Ya 'Ali" or "Ya Fatimah" (this constitutes calling upon someone other than Allah), then you are not a Twelver. If such is the case, I would be interested in knowing the denomination of what you follow according to Islam.

Well, if you go outside and it's cloudy, dark, and thunderous, will you think it's going to rain due to experience with rain or will you not be so quick to judge because today might be a different day?

How do you know what is the truth and falsehood? Making this statement implies that you do, but if you believe in a fabricated story, such as the Broken Rib Fable, then you cannot claim to follow the truth. It's impossible. Not in our books nor yours can you authentically prove this story, but it is a focal point with regards to what you follow. That being said, you cannot claim to follow the truth while beliving in a lie.

That's the problem, isn't it? I can't know when a Shi'a is doing taqiyyah or not. When I say Shi'a, I mean the Twelver's. I am positive that the Zaydi's dismiss taqiyyah (@Warilla correct me if I'm wrong, please) entirely. Encountering a Shi'a is like a living embodiment of the Liar Paradox.

As for Shi'a or others using the word "wahhabi", that's on them. Using this as a derogatory term and saying "no, it's not! It's because Abdulwahhab did such and such!" will only bring them demise in the grave. One of the names of Allah is Al-Wahhab, the Bestower. However, everyone uses terms like "[edited out]" or "Omari" to insult us now, which is better than using "Wahhabi" because it doesn't make fun of Allah, but it is still bad. It shouldn't be used whatsoever, but very few Shi'a that I've come across (in real life and online) are able to engage in meaningful, intellectual discussion. Very few. I can quite literally count them on one hand. Everything else they do is insulting or become emotional. My father taught me that when a woman becomes emotional, treat her with care for her because Allah made her that way and being upset with what Allah has done will result in His wrath. When a man becomes as such, then don't bother speaking to him. The only thing more illogical than an emotional woman is an emotional man.

Nonetheless, calling upon other than Allah is not only shirk, but indeed worship. If a Greek/Roman said "O Zeus/Jupiter!", would that not denote that they worship this said deity or entity? Would this not denote they're seeking it's aid, for none other than they believe it to be their God? If you've ever said "Ya 'Ali, Ya Fatimah", you've called on other than Allah and have committed shirk. You are associated partners with Allah which entails that those you have ascribed to Him are equal with him, therefore you worship them.

Yeah we send lanat on certain individuals , but more focused on the people responsible for ashura , we don’t curse the 3 caliphs ritually or as much as yazeed or muawiyah shimr , other than when we curse the first two for the martyrdom of Fatima but that’s not as often or as much as the people responsible for ashura at Karbala 
 

but why do u care if u think they’re in heaven then we’re just blabbing away without any results it shouldn’t matter to u , if u guys cursed the imams we wouldn’t really care since it doesn’t effect them since we believe they’re the best humans and in heights of heaven

should we kill each other over this ? Isn’t the Muslim ummah in a horrible state today , divided and killing each other ? We’re weak and lost today and divided and even literally killing each other and that’s worse than any words of curse nevertheless Khamenine sistani and most Shia marjah advise  against cursing and to show respect to sunnis and do call for unity especially against the real and common enemy who wants us all dead and scattered to the winds 

Edited by theEndIsNear
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