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In the Name of God بسم الله

imam ali narrates more hadith in sunni books than in shia books?

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Importance has nothing to do with amount of narrations actually. Understand the beliefs: Shias - Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) a

This is a false and baseless statement. Kindly stop spreading such lies on the forum. Consider this an informal warning. Thank you. 

I don't think we give 'Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, less importance. I could ask a Shi'a about other books Imam 'Ali is mentioned in and how he is portrayed for us but they wouldn't be able to

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47 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

So you don't have to say Ya 'Ali to be a Twelver? This is your claim, correct?

This is ironic. You don't believe in lying or spreading misinformation only when it comes to the Shi'a perspective, right? But when lies about the companions that you believe in are spread and proven otherwise, it's alright? You seemed like a fair person a while back, but your hypocrisy has come to light. 

To answer your first question, no obviously you dont have to say Ya Ali to be a twelver. There is no such pre condition or requirement.

To answer your second question, the rule is general. If someone attributes false beliefs to other schools or religions, this will also be corrected. If they persist, they will be warned. 

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40 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

To answer your first question, no obviously you dont have to say Ya Ali to be a twelver. There is no such pre condition or requirement.

To answer your second question, the rule is general. If someone attributes false beliefs to other schools or religions, this will also be corrected. If they persist, they will be warned. 

So... the broken rib fable being spread innumerable amount of times has been corrected, I take it? All of them? The story of Mu'awiyah poisoning Hassan? All this will be corrected if it's mentioned, right? And anything else? I'm making sure to see if this general rule adds up. 

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53 minutes ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Please define taqiyyah for me. You are clearly ignorant so please do not criticize that which you do not know.

You asked me to define it then said I didn't know. You have your answer. 

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3 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

Brother, when the Imams did practice taqiyyah, it wasn't to save themselves; it was to save their followers. Keep in mind the fantastic tortures that shia had to suffer under Ummayyads/Abbasids.

Taqiyyah still has a place during present times; the 11 Hazaras had their hands tied behind their backs, and their throats were slit with small, blunt knives (they weren't killed by gunshot). That's the sort of persecution shias will have to suffer, and which makes taqiyyah a necessity.

I understand but from a zaidi point of view dying for Islam is a great act.

Second lying is a sin.

Imams don't lie. And guidance is their role.

Any individual can choose to preserve their own life. But you still need to ask for forgiveness for the sin of lying.

 

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2 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

So... the broken rib fable being spread innumerable amount of times has been corrected, I take it? All of them? The story of Mu'awiyah poisoning Hassan? All this will be corrected if it's mentioned, right? And anything else? I'm making sure to see if this general rule adds up. 

If it is provided without references, then references should be requested. If they can't be provided then the statement should be retracted. 

The point about your false statement still stands. 

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3 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

If it is provided without references, then references should be requested. If they can't be provided then the statement should be retracted. 

The point about your false statement still stands. 

So they can bring false references and it's okay, as long as it supports the lie? That's circular reasoning. It sounds as if excuses are being brought to make an exception to something already favored.

As for my point, it still stands. No other Shi'a sect calls upon 'Ali or Fatima as intermediaries that I know of. Bring them forth. No other Shi'a sect does this. It's not a false statement just because you say so. Prove otherwise. I stand by what I say until proven otherwise. The almighty, powerful moderator of ShiaChat, Madhavist, isn't enough evidence for me. 

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1 hour ago, Mahenoor._ said:

they may not even know ahlulbayt(عليه السلام) after Hussain (عليه السلام), like Imam sajjad(عليه السلام), Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) and so on, because they've never made to learn all these instead what they embed during their learning period is the same "basic" islam.(this is what i think, opinions may vary, Im sry if this hurted your feelings jn any way)

Just for knowedge. No. They know the later shia Imams atleast upto imam Jaffer (عليه السلام).

Proof Sahih muslim 2803 in Book of Hajj is narrated from Imam Jaffer (عليه السلام).

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9 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

 

As for my point, it still stands. No other Shi'a sect calls upon 'Ali or Fatima as intermediaries that I know of. Bring them forth. No other Shi'a sect does this. It's not a false statement just because you say so. Prove otherwise. 

This wasn't your statement (which is also false actually, but that's another topic)

Your statement was that one who hasn't said Ya Ali or Ya Fatima is not a twelver.

If your statement is truthful, bring forward your proof that this is a requirement to be a twelver.

If not, stop lying. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

This wasn't your statement (which is also false actually, but that's another topic)

Your statement was that one who hasn't said Ya Ali or Ya Fatima is not a twelver.

Twelvers are the only known sect to believe and do such things. It all falls in the same category.

15 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

If your statement is truthful, bring forward your proof that this is a requirement to be a twelver.

If not, stop lying. 

My proof is the rest of the Shi'a sect books holding this view as a majority. No Zaydis, Ismailis, etc. hold this view. Just the Twelvers. Twelvers call upon the Ahlul Bayt which the other sects reject due to them being more knowledgeable on the Qur'an, where Allah states on multiple occasions doing this is prohibited, especially to the dead and in the same way the Christians and other polytheists do. You can be offended by it and try to be snide, but the fact that you call on other than Allah is the truth. Only the Twelver Rawafidh. Bring me another Shi'a book that promotes, advocates, or prescribes this. 

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25 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Just for knowedge. No. They know the later shia Imams atleast upto imam Jaffer (عليه السلام).

Proof Sahih muslim 2803 in Book of Hajj is narrated from Imam Jaffer (عليه السلام).

Well, yes they may. But I've never heard any person or from my dad or family members from Friday sermons, naming or stating life incidents of ahlulbayt(عليه السلام) after Hussain(as)(and this too rarely, much rarely) and the reason i mentioned the following two imams was because of the "saiyed" sect because I've heard from em. (Instead uk, i hear more of Hz. Moinuddin Chisti (KGN) and gauspak, but uk wht, they just like to say and support all tht but they really don't know about their lives, one may say they're like "gowiththeflow" type)

I'm born sunni and I'm still living with my family, i.e. among sunnis, and I've never heard of it and I'm afraid to reveal that I'm a shia, tho ive officially converted in front of some trustworthy beings. But that's not a thing to consider, as i believe from the heart and stand amonh the shia of Ali (عليه السلام). But yeah this is really hard time for me, as im not the one wholl just let-go or unheard something once ive heard it, by this i mean i strictly follow. For ex, i offer Salah in fear tht if anyone will find out tht i offer it in diff manner thn em; but that doesn't mean i should leave the correct path, manners, rituals and TRUTH. Im blessed, that im nearer to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and that he has not sealed my hurt like he has sealed of so many people. Alhumdulillah. Iltemas-e-Dua.

Jazakallah Khair 

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7 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Twelvers are the only known sect to believe and do such things. It all falls in the same category.

No, you are using two-way implication here. If A implies B, then B doesn't necessarily imply A.

Anyways, there are non Twelver sects who say 'Ya Rasoolallah' and 'Ya Ali'.

I think we are all diverging from the original topic; can one of us make a tally of all narrations by Maula Ali in Mutawwa Malik?.

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10 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Anyways, there are non Twelver sects who say 'Ya Rasoolallah' and 'Ya Ali'.

I think we are all diverging from the original topic; can one of us make a tally of all narrations by Maula Ali in Mutawwa Malik?.

I meant Shi'a. Sufis say what you have said and I'm aware of this. As well as Barlevis and Deobandis, but that's separate as you said.

If you can read the Arabic, you can. I'd go through them all, but it would take a while. Nonetheless, it's possible. I don't understand why Shi'a think we like to defame and berate 'Ali or any of the Ahlul Bayt. This isn't the case at all, no matter the narration number by them. Nobody reads any of our other books. They ignore the fact we have chapters dedicated to 'Ali in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim. Nobody wants to bring this up because they're interested in demonizing us, as I've said. Nobody looks at our other books. 

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1 hour ago, Nightclaw said:

You asked me to define it then said I didn't know. You have your answer. 

I asked you to define it in the sense of what you understood of it. If you don't know what it is then why attempt to criticize the Twelver Shias based off of it? You claim that there is a fault yet you don't even know what you are talking about?

 

25 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

where Allah states on multiple occasions doing this is prohibited, especially to the dead and in the same way the Christians and other polytheists do. You can be offended by it and try to be snide, but the fact that you call on other than Allah is the truth. Only the Twelver Rawafidh. Bring me another Shi'a book that promotes, advocates, or prescribes this. 

Show me one verse.

Also show me one hadith that supports the idea that us Twelver Shias must curse the companions of the Prophet or to ask one of the ma'sumeen for intercession.

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Show me one verse.

There are verses that clearly show seeking intercession in manner of worshipping them is shirk. 

In the following Sunni site, they say following:

This man's saying "make him intercede for me with You" proves that the meaning of seeking the Tawassul of the Prophet  , is seeking Tawassul by his  supplication and not with the person of the Prophet.  This is also supported by what ‘Umar Ibn Al-Khattab  did when they  suffered  draught: he sought the Tawassul of Al-‘Abbas, the uncle of the Prophet  to supplicate Allah and it rained with the permission of Allah. [Al-Bukhari].  Had pleading to Allah by means of the person of the Prophet  been permissible, then they would have made Tawassul by means of the person of the Prophet  , after his death as well, as his status and honor during his life remained the same after his death.

- As for Shia's you will find this type of Tawassul too, but the problem is, where are the authentic narrations to support this? In Shia Islam you will find many narrations and duas where Imams (عليه السلام) clearly showed how they only asked God alone, without any tawassul of others.

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1 hour ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

asked you to define it in the sense of what you understood of it. If you don't know what it is then why attempt to criticize the Twelver Shias based off of it? You claim that there is a fault yet you don't even know what you are talking about?

You're talking in circles. You asked me what it was in your initial response then said I was ignorant about it. Let's try again. Ask me about it or say I don't know. 

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1 hour ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Show me one verse.

Also show me one hadith that supports the idea that us Twelver Shias must curse the companions of the Prophet or to ask one of the ma'sumeen for intercession.

This shows how much you read the Qur'an. If you do read it, you don't understand it. Go to Ayat al-Kursi, to start with. 

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26 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

You're talking in circles. You asked me what it was in your initial response then said I was ignorant about it. Let's try again. Ask me about it or say I don't know. 

I said you were ignorant because when you referred to taqiyyah in previous posts, it was apparent that you had little understanding regarding the concept. I said define it because I wanted to see what your understanding of the concept was. Perhaps that post requires some rewording.

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4 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

And reckon not those who are killed in Allāh's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord [3:169]

When one dies as a martyr, he is dead for purposes of this worldly life.  That is why they are given funeral rites and are buried.  They do not breathe and eat in this world. They do not communicate with anyone.

Rather are alive and living in comfort in the highest ranks of Paradise and are provided best of provisions (in the Paradise).

If the Shaheed was alive in this world, his wife could not have got married to other person as the marriage was still valid on the grounds of the shaheed being alive!

Just to give one example from many, when hazrat Ja'far ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was martyred in the Battle of Mu'tah, his wife, lady Asmā’ binṫ ‘Umays (may Allah be pleased with her) got married with hazrat Abu Bakr al-siddiq (may Allah be pleased with him)

This marriage could not have taken place if hazrat Ja'far ibn Abi Talib was considered to be alive in this world!

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

This shows how much you read the Qur'an. If you do read it, you don't understand it. Go to Ayat al-Kursi, to start with. 

You are assuming that merely asking the Ma'sumeen to pray to Allah on your behalf is forbidden? I do not see anything wrong with intercession. If by doing intercession one views the Ma'sumeen to be equal to Allah then yes that would be shirk. It is also impermissible to supplicate to the Ma'sumeen or to prostrate to them (whether indirectly or directly). What part of Ayat ul-Kursi proves intercession to be impermissible?

 

 

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53 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

- As for Shia's you will find this type of Tawassul too, but the problem is, where are the authentic narrations to support this? In Shia Islam you will find many narrations and duas where Imams (عليه السلام) clearly showed how they only asked God alone, without any tawassul of others.

You will also find narrations of people asking the Imams to pray to Allah for them and the Imams agreed.

Why would the Imams do tawassul of others? They are one of the closest people to Allah and they were sinless so for them they would rather supplicate directly to Allah.

59 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

There are verses that clearly show seeking intercession in manner of worshipping them is shirk. 

If by seeking intercession you start worshipping them then of course it is shirk.

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9 minutes ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

@NightclawLook at Quran [4:64]. People who committed sins came to ask the Prophet to ask Allah for forgiveness then Allah forgave them.

This wasn't the form of worship. You're making a false comparison. One, he was alive. Two, they asked while he was alive. The people of Moses and Jesus did the same for them. There's nothing wrong with this. It's the equivalent of asking someone to make du'a for your sick father or mother or situation in general, but on a much lesser scale.

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Just now, Nightclaw said:

This wasn't the form of worship. You're making a false comparison. One, he was alive. Two, they asked while he was alive. The people of Moses and Jesus did the same for them. There's nothing wrong with this. It's the equivalent of asking someone to make du'a for your sick father or mother or situation in general, but on a much lesser scale.

This is what tawassul is. They can be alive or not on this world. What is your point?

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1 minute ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

This is what tawassul is. They can be alive or not on this world. What is your point?

Okay. You're right. 

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@Muhammad Al-HurrI'm pro tawassul here, and I agree with you, but the problem is you are presenting the weaker arguments for tawassul. I would find and give stronger references (they are vaguely somewhere in my head), but I would rather not contribute more off topic content for this thread.

A hint: try finding verses and ahadith that support using certain specific means of intercession, whether alive, dead, or not even born yet.

@Nightclaw your arguments are actually a rehash of arguments that have been discussed countless times both on and off these forums, and throughout hundreds of years. A rhetorical question (you don't have to necessarily answer): why do you think we Twelvers only say Ya Ali Madad/Ya Sahib uz Zaman Adrikni? Why not for example: Ya Abbas Madad, Ya Hamza Madad, Ya Muhammad Taqi Madad, Ya Hasan Askari Madad? Or even, Ya Isa Madad, Ya Musa Madad, Ya Adam Madad, Ya Khidr Madad, Ya Asif ibn Barkhiya Madad, Ya Jibrael Madad, Ya Mikael Madad etc?

Also, why do we only have a Namaz e Istighasa for Bibi Fatima, and not Bibi Zainab, Bibi Khadija etc? @Muhammad Al-Hurr this is another hint for you to research and reinforce your argument.

Peace out.

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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

There are verses that clearly show seeking intercession in manner of worshipping them is shirk. 

In the following Sunni site, they say following:

This man's saying "make him intercede for me with You" proves that the meaning of seeking the Tawassul of the Prophet  , is seeking Tawassul by his  supplication and not with the person of the Prophet.  This is also supported by what ‘Umar Ibn Al-Khattab  did when they  suffered  draught: he sought the Tawassul of Al-‘Abbas, the uncle of the Prophet  to supplicate Allah and it rained with the permission of Allah. [Al-Bukhari].  Had pleading to Allah by means of the person of the Prophet  been permissible, then they would have made Tawassul by means of the person of the Prophet  , after his death as well, as his status and honor during his life remained the same after his death.

- As for Shia's you will find this type of Tawassul too, but the problem is, where are the authentic narrations to support this? In Shia Islam you will find many narrations and duas where Imams (عليه السلام) clearly showed how they only asked God alone, without any tawassul of others.

  • In a hadith from Lady Fatima (a), it is mentioned that, "Everything in the sky and on the earth seek a Wasila [means] through which they become close to God and we are God's means and intermediaries among His creation."

Ibn Abī al-Ḥadīd, Shrḥ Nahj al-Balāgha, vol. 16, p. 211; Jawharī al-Baṣrī, al-Saqīfa wa l-fadak, p. 99.

  • Imam al-Sadiq (a) has said that, "We (Ahl al-Bayt (a)) are the Allah's cord about which God Almighty has said, "Hold fast, all together, to Allah's cord, and do not be divided [into sects]." (3:103)

Majlisī, Biḥār al-anwār, vol. 24, p. 84.

Suyūṭī, al-Durar al-manthūr, vol. 1, p. 60-61.

  • In a hadith, Imam 'Ali (a) has mentioned the examples of Wasila; among which are belief in God, Jihad in the way of God and doing the obligations, fasting, hajj and 'Umra.

Nahj al-balāgha, sermon 110.

  • In addition to hadiths, Ziyarah texts [addresses given upon visiting shrines] and supplications received from the Prophet (s) and the Ahl al-Bayt (a) are full of the instances of Tawassul and swearing in the rights of the Prophet (s) and Imams (a) which are examples of Tawassul.

For example refer to al-Zīyāra of the Prophet (s), al-Zīyāra al-Jāmi'a al-Kabīra.

This is all taken from wikishia. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

you will find many narrations and duas where Imams (عليه السلام) clearly showed how they only asked God alone, without any tawassul of others.

Salaam,

Dua e Tawassul is just a grain in the salt if you are really referring to supplications of Imams and trying to find a source of Wasila.

Duas regarding the coming of Imam Al Mehdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) are full of intercessions.

What about ziyarat e Ashura???

There are clear cut authentic sanad for Ziyarat e ashura prescribed by Imam Abi Abdullah Al Sadiq (عليه السلام) and it contains almost everything that a Sunni condemns about the shia belief. 

Curses as well as tawassul:

Some lines from Ziyarat al Ashura :

 

Quote

O Allah, (please) make me illustrious in Your sight in the name of al-Husayn, peace be upon him, in this world and in the Hereafter. O Abu-'Abdullah, I do seek nearness to Allah, to His Messenger, to the Commander of the Faithful, to Fatimah, to al-Hasan, and to you by means of loyalty to you and by means of repudiation of those who fought against you and incurred your hostility, and repudiation of those who laid the basis of persecution and wronging against you all. I also repudiate, in the presence of Allah and His Messenger, those who laid the basis of all that, established their foundations on it, and continued in wronging and persecuting you and your adherents. In the presence of Allah and you all do I repudiate these.• And I seek nearness to Allah and then to you all by means of declaring loyalty to you and to your loyalists and declaring repudiation of your enemies and those who incur animosity of you and repudiation of their adherents and followers.

I am still waiting for Sunni references in favor of tawassul though. 

Edit: As pointed out by the mod this was my last post. The topic is derailing and it is better to move on. Apologies.

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20 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Suyūṭī, al-Durar al-manthūr, vol. 1, p. 60-61.

Salam maybe we can discuss this in another thread but my question is, would this fall under Tawassul or would it be more asking God for the sake of the Ahl al Bayt (عليه السلام)?

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On 1/6/2021 at 7:23 PM, zahralzu said:

shias always complain that imam ali (عليه السلام) narrates such little number of hadith compared to aisha and abu hurayrah; but imam ali (عليه السلام) narrates more hadith in muwatta malik than he does in all shi'i books combined! So should we stop accusing sunnis of barely giving him any importance since it seems they give him more than we do?

Salam In following video Sheikh Jehad Ismail talks about Muwatta from 16:00 to 20:00 that he said thatmajority of Muwatta Hadiths are "Marfu"  ie Hadiths are narrated from companions & their interpretation that has no connection to prophet Muhammad (pbu) & principle of Imam Malik based on action & tradition of people of Medina like praying with hands down. 

Tip: he had read Muwatta in AL-Azhar University when he was studying there as a Sunni also he mentioned that in Sunni books like Muwatta names of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) specially Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is marginalized heavily that it takes 10 years of his life to find out that a hadith in Sunni books was about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) from prophet Muhammad (pbu) for endorsement of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) but نامه of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) had been censored in all Sunni references. 

Reborn exclusive | Sheikh Jehad Ismail

 

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On 1/7/2021 at 2:31 PM, Nightclaw said:

Nonetheless, calling upon other than Allah is not only shirk, but indeed worship. If a Greek/Roman said "O Zeus/Jupiter!", would that not denote that they worship this said deity or entity? Would this not denote they're seeking it's aid, for none other than they believe it to be their God? If you've ever said "Ya 'Ali, Ya Fatimah", you've called on other than Allah and have committed shirk. You are associated partners with Allah which entails that those you have ascribed to Him are equal with him, therefore you worship them.

Calling upon ahlulbayt with the belief that they're god is shirk and kufr; happy? But calling upon the wasilah of God; the devinely appointed walis of God, isn't.

This is NOT like the christians, because christians say 'oh jesus' believing jesus is god; but we don't believe ali is god when we say 'ya ali'

I don't know why you think there's some sort of competition or tension between Allah and his messenger, that somehow calling upon the messenger isolates him, when in reality the messenger is ally of allah. 

You can't claim it's like idol worship, because Allah never divinely appointed these idols, rather, the people took these idols as gods and invoked their names, but the key difference is we do this with those god himself appointed, whereas the idolaters and wrongdoers do this without permission from god; against god, besides god, or beside god's will, ie. من دون الله

(19:48, 18:43, 46:28, 26:93, 25:55, 19:81, 16:20, 27:43, 3:64, 7:30, 42:31, 6:56, 19:49, 7:149, 39:43, 46:4, 60:4, 2:107, 11:113, 6:71, 10:37, 22:12, 21:98, 40:74, 21:66, 9:31, 29:41, 35:40, 71:25, 36:74, 29:17, 21:67, 40:66, 34:22)

this idol worship is NOT istigatha or tawasil or shafa'a of the shias; because we don't believe that the ahlulbayt recieve shafa'a independent from god

please don't project what you believe we believe upon us and insist we believe in what we clearly explained to you we really don't.

If you want to believe in talking to God directly like how the christians believe they spoke to God directly; that god came down in human form to speak directly, go for it! We however don't believe allah ever spoke to us directly, we believe he used divinely appointed individuals as mediums to send his messages through, and spoke to the prophets through gabriel; the medium between allah and his messengers. 

Think of it as a big company; when you walk into the building you don't speak to the CEO directly; rather, you speak with the receptionist or secretary, and they then convey your message to the CEO. but speaking to the secretary does not mean you've replaced the CEO with the secretary. So think of the ahlulbayt as the reception. This is not to say that we don't also call upon allah directly, but we have hadiths in our books that encourage invoking him through his beloved walis, these hadiths are our hujja.

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