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In the Name of God بسم الله

imam ali narrates more hadith in sunni books than in shia books?

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zahralzu

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shias always complain that imam ali (عليه السلام) narrates such little number of hadith compared to aisha and abu hurayrah; but imam ali (عليه السلام) narrates more hadith in muwatta malik than he does in all shi'i books combined! So should we stop accusing sunnis of barely giving him any importance since it seems they give him more than we do?

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2 hours ago, zahralzu said:

shias always complain that imam ali (عليه السلام) narrates such little number of hadith compared to aisha and abu hurayrah; but imam ali (عليه السلام) narrates more hadith in muwatta malik than he does in all shi'i books combined! So should we stop accusing sunnis of barely giving him any importance since it seems they give him more than we do?

I don't think we give 'Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, less importance. I could ask a Shi'a about other books Imam 'Ali is mentioned in and how he is portrayed for us but they wouldn't be able to give an answer because they're interested in polemics and trying to make us look bad. I guarantee I know more about Imam 'Ali than most, if not all the Shi'a on this website. I can name every battle he has participated in and led, his children, grandchildren, life, etc. If I walked up to a Shi'a right now, in person, they wouldn't be able to answer a quarter as much. Over the internet, it's pointless. They could do a quick search (and still be wrong).

I love Imam 'Ali more than any Shi'a because I follow him. I don't curse Abu Bakr, 'Umar, or 'Uthman, because he didn't. I don't call upon him because he didn't (neither did his children or grandchildren). I learned to fight with two swords because he did. I forgive my fellow Muslims if they wrong me or make mistakes because he did. I don't excommunicate Abu Bakr, 'Umar, or 'Uthman because he didn't. I don't let anyone beat up on my wife because he didn't. I don't stand for injustice or wrongdoing because he didn't. The person whom I follow the most and love more than him is the Messenger, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

You have probably already guessed it, but he didn't do that either. He never cursed his companions or excommunicated them. Therefore, I do not. I follow Allah's command, His Messenger and his companions, family, those who followed and those who followed them. Anyone who claims we give 'Ali little importance doesn't know about our history or books well enough because that statement wouldn't and shouldn't be said if he does know.

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3 hours ago, zahralzu said:

shias always complain that imam ali (عليه السلام) narrates such little number of hadith compared to aisha and abu hurayrah; but imam ali (عليه السلام) narrates more hadith in muwatta malik than he does in all shi'i books combined! So should we stop accusing sunnis of barely giving him any importance since it seems they give him more than we do?

Sounds kind of hard to believe, unless we see an actual tally.

Muwatta has 1720 ahadith. Given that 600 are marfu' and 613' are mawquf, there is a pool of 1213 ahadith where Maula Ali ((عليه السلام)) can be a possible narrator; either narrating from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), or something from himself (given that mawquf is a saying attributed to a Companion).

We don't have a few hundred ahadith from Maula Ali in our entire literature?

 

edit: even if we assume this to be true, we have countless traditions from other Ahle Bayt Imams. From our point of view, we still take a huge majority of our ahadith from Ahle Bayt.

Edited by Sabrejet
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3 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

I love Imam 'Ali more than any Shi'a because I follow him. I don't curse Abu Bakr, 'Umar, or 'Uthman, because he didn't. I don't call upon him because he didn't (neither did his children or grandchildren). I learned to fight with two swords because he did. I forgive my fellow Muslims if they wrong me or make mistakes because he did. I don't excommunicate Abu Bakr, 'Umar, or 'Uthman because he didn't. I don't let anyone beat up on my wife because he didn't. I don't stand for injustice or wrongdoing because he didn't. 

I feel the same way. Its why I follow Zaidiya.

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3 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

from other Ahle Bayt Imams. From our point of view, we still take a huge majority of our ahadith from Ahle Bayt.

Also for arguments sake lets say the knowledge isn't directly given but learned. Then taking from say Imam Jaffer Sadiq is a tradition passed from Imam Ali even if it's not explicitly stated.

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I’ve never ever cursed any companions, neither have I ever called upon anyone but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Does this make me less of a shia? Honestly growing up with both Sunni and Shias I didn’t even know about all these things we never grew up with hatred or cursing or shirk. Because of these people that ghuluw everything normal people like me and my friends look like we do all these. It’s a shame that without knowing every human we are all quick to judge and i have no say to some people because quickly they think taqiya lol. 

I don’t classify myself as a Shia/Sunni rather a Muslim who follows the quran and the sunnah of rasool Allah and ahlul bayt. What ever is haqq I follow and whatver doesn’t make sense I avoid as precaution. 
I dislike when sunnis accuse all Shias with taqiya or Imam ali worship but I also dislike how Shias view many sunnis and over use the word wahhabi for no reason.
 

4 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

 

15 minutes ago, Warilla said:
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Say: “No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin.”

 

You love Allah, you hate those opposed to Allah.

You love the Prophet, you hate those opposed to him.

You love Ali, you hate those opposed to him.

You love Fatima, you hate those opposed to her.

 

This is the law of a true believer; therefore if I say may Allah bless the Prophet and his family in my prayers, it only makes sense while awake I say may Allah curse their enemies, especially traitors.

Yin-yang if you will. One cannot truly exist without the other.

Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah (on his death).

Consequently, by Allah, people got involved in recklessness, wickedness, unsteadiness and deviation.

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3 hours ago, AliTanjiro said:

I’ve never ever cursed any companions, neither have I ever called upon anyone but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Does this make me less of a shia? Honestly growing up with both Sunni and Shias I didn’t even know about all these things we never grew up with hatred or cursing or shirk. Because of these people that ghuluw everything normal people like me and my friends look like we do all these. It’s a shame that without knowing every human we are all quick to judge and i have no say to some people because quickly they think taqiya lol. 

If you haven't cursed any companions, you're either lying or not a Twelver. If you've never said "Ya 'Ali" or "Ya Fatimah" (this constitutes calling upon someone other than Allah), then you are not a Twelver. If such is the case, I would be interested in knowing the denomination of what you follow according to Islam.

Well, if you go outside and it's cloudy, dark, and thunderous, will you think it's going to rain due to experience with rain or will you not be so quick to judge because today might be a different day?

3 hours ago, AliTanjiro said:

I don’t classify myself as a Shia/Sunni rather a Muslim who follows the quran and the sunnah of rasool Allah and ahlul bayt. What ever is haqq I follow and whatver doesn’t make sense I avoid as precaution. 

How do you know what is the truth and falsehood? Making this statement implies that you do, but if you believe in a fabricated story, such as the Broken Rib Fable, then you cannot claim to follow the truth. It's impossible. Not in our books nor yours can you authentically prove this story, but it is a focal point with regards to what you follow. That being said, you cannot claim to follow the truth while beliving in a lie.

3 hours ago, AliTanjiro said:

I dislike when sunnis accuse all Shias with taqiya or Imam ali worship but I also dislike how Shias view many sunnis and over use the word wahhabi for no reason.

That's the problem, isn't it? I can't know when a Shi'a is doing taqiyyah or not. When I say Shi'a, I mean the Twelver's. I am positive that the Zaydi's dismiss taqiyyah (@Warilla correct me if I'm wrong, please) entirely. Encountering a Shi'a is like a living embodiment of the Liar Paradox.

As for Shi'a or others using the word "wahhabi", that's on them. Using this as a derogatory term and saying "no, it's not! It's because Abdulwahhab did such and such!" will only bring them demise in the grave. One of the names of Allah is Al-Wahhab, the Bestower. However, everyone uses terms like "[edited out]" or "Omari" to insult us now, which is better than using "Wahhabi" because it doesn't make fun of Allah, but it is still bad. It shouldn't be used whatsoever, but very few Shi'a that I've come across (in real life and online) are able to engage in meaningful, intellectual discussion. Very few. I can quite literally count them on one hand. Everything else they do is insulting or become emotional. My father taught me that when a woman becomes emotional, treat her with care for her because Allah made her that way and being upset with what Allah has done will result in His wrath. When a man becomes as such, then don't bother speaking to him. The only thing more illogical than an emotional woman is an emotional man.

Nonetheless, calling upon other than Allah is not only shirk, but indeed worship. If a Greek/Roman said "O Zeus/Jupiter!", would that not denote that they worship this said deity or entity? Would this not denote they're seeking it's aid, for none other than they believe it to be their God? If you've ever said "Ya 'Ali, Ya Fatimah", you've called on other than Allah and have committed shirk. You are associated partners with Allah which entails that those you have ascribed to Him are equal with him, therefore you worship them.

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3 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

If you haven't cursed any companions, you're either lying or not a Twelver. If you've never said "Ya 'Ali" or "Ya Fatimah" (this constitutes calling upon someone other than Allah), then you are not a Twelver. If such is the case, I would be interested in knowing the denomination of what you follow according to Islam.

Really? That is a really bold and false claim. We also do not call upon the Prophet or Ali as if they are gods who can do what Allah is capable of. Tawassul is the concept referring to asking any of the ma'sumeen to pray on our behalf to Allah. That does not constitute shirk. In fact Allah says in the Quran: O you who believe! Be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness (wasilah) to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful. [5:35]

 

3 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

That's the problem, isn't it? I can't know when a Shi'a is doing taqiyyah or not. When I say Shi'a, I mean the Twelver's. I am positive that the Zaydi's dismiss taqiyyah (@Warilla correct me if I'm wrong, please) entirely. 

What is wrong with taqiyyah? Do you even know what the concept of taqiyyah is?

Edited by Muhammad Al-Hurr
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3 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

If you haven't cursed any companions, you're either lying or not a Twelver. If you've never said "Ya 'Ali" or "Ya Fatimah" (this constitutes calling upon someone other than Allah), then you are not a Twelver. If such is the case, I would be interested in knowing the denomination of what you follow according to Islam.

Well, if you go outside and it's cloudy, dark, and thunderous, will you think it's going to rain due to experience with rain or will you not be so quick to judge because today might be a different day?

How do you know what is the truth and falsehood? Making this statement implies that you do, but if you believe in a fabricated story, such as the Broken Rib Fable, then you cannot claim to follow the truth. It's impossible. Not in our books nor yours can you authentically prove this story, but it is a focal point with regards to what you follow. That being said, you cannot claim to follow the truth while beliving in a lie.

That's the problem, isn't it? I can't know when a Shi'a is doing taqiyyah or not. When I say Shi'a, I mean the Twelver's. I am positive that the Zaydi's dismiss taqiyyah (@Warilla correct me if I'm wrong, please) entirely. Encountering a Shi'a is like a living embodiment of the Liar Paradox.

As for Shi'a or others using the word "wahhabi", that's on them. Using this as a derogatory term and saying "no, it's not! It's because Abdulwahhab did such and such!" will only bring them demise in the grave. One of the names of Allah is Al-Wahhab, the Bestower. However, everyone uses terms like "[edited out]" or "Omari" to insult us now, which is better than using "Wahhabi" because it doesn't make fun of Allah, but it is still bad. It shouldn't be used whatsoever, but very few Shi'a that I've come across (in real life and online) are able to engage in meaningful, intellectual discussion. Very few. I can quite literally count them on one hand. Everything else they do is insulting or become emotional. My father taught me that when a woman becomes emotional, treat her with care for her because Allah made her that way and being upset with what Allah has done will result in His wrath. When a man becomes as such, then don't bother speaking to him. The only thing more illogical than an emotional woman is an emotional man.

Nonetheless, calling upon other than Allah is not only shirk, but indeed worship. If a Greek/Roman said "O Zeus/Jupiter!", would that not denote that they worship this said deity or entity? Would this not denote they're seeking it's aid, for none other than they believe it to be their God? If you've ever said "Ya 'Ali, Ya Fatimah", you've called on other than Allah and have committed shirk. You are associated partners with Allah which entails that those you have ascribed to Him are equal with him, therefore you worship them.

Wow thanks. That’s what I mean I’m a liar because I’ve never cursed thank you very much. I’ve obviously got no proof on shiachat but in person if you knew me you would know. Also in regards to not knowing the truth is I don’t care if the scholar is sunni/Shia if he’s speaking haqq I like to learn or listen. You can learn from others to you know. If a Sunni scholar said 1 + 1 = 2 should I not accept the answer if it’s correct? 
 

you literally proved my point 

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@Nightclaw 

Taqqiya is accepted only in extreme circumstances to protect your life.

But it's not a praised act. 

Martyrdom is the superior choice.

Also an Imam can't do Taqqiya as there role is to guide.

I was a 12er and the majority of average guys I knew did not do taqqiya and were honest in their discourse.

But I do have first hand experience of scholars Qom/najaf graduates giving contradicting answers to different people on the status of the 1st 3 caliphs. But the majority would give straight honest answers

Edited by Warilla
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2 minutes ago, Warilla said:

Also an Imam can't do Taqqiya as there role is to guide.

Brother, when the Imams did practice taqiyyah, it wasn't to save themselves; it was to save their followers. Keep in mind the fantastic tortures that shia had to suffer under Ummayyads/Abbasids.

Taqiyyah still has a place during present times; the 11 Hazaras had their hands tied behind their backs, and their throats were slit with small, blunt knives (they weren't killed by gunshot). That's the sort of persecution shias will have to suffer, and which makes taqiyyah a necessity.

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3 minutes ago, Warilla said:

@Nightclaw 

Taqqiya is accepted only in extreme circumstances to protect your life.

But it's not a praised act. 

Martyrdom is the superior choice.

Also an Imam can't do Taqqiya as there role is to guide.

I was a 12er and the majority of average guys I knew did not do taqqiya and were honest in their discourse.

I love how they think taqiya is literraly used in day to day lives. Al hamdullilah I’ve never been in a situation to ever have to lie to protect myself. My best friends are followed of Shafi madhab. I pray with them and no need to lie.if someone came to kill me because I believe in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then go ahead I still wouldn’t lie I but guess everyone is different depending one situation.  I didn’t even have to comment and tell you my life story @Nightclaw but I did so Mabye you can think that not all people are the same. If you go through some things I post on shiachat you will notice I mention my sunni friends everywhere and I get along with sunnis well. 
 

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16 minutes ago, Warilla said:

 

Taqqiya is accepted only in extreme circumstances to protect your life.

That is a very similar view to the Twelver Shias:

Taqiyyah refers to the discretionary concealment of one’s beliefs under duress.

 

Edited by Muhammad Al-Hurr
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@AliTanjiro Alhumdulillah brother. And no need to justify or prove that you are speaking the truth and not lying. 

Judgemental thinking has blinded some. Unfortunately, what a disease of false allegation and judgement is frankly hitting the heart of some Sunnis to make them hate shias. 

It is astonishing how someone can deny an entire school of thought calling all of them and there basic belief based on lie. Subhanallah!!! 

No need to waste your time.

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

This is a false and baseless statement. Kindly stop spreading such lies on the forum. Consider this an informal warning.

Thank you. 

How is it a lie and why should this constitute a warning? Wouldn't it make more sense to actually clear it up instead of stating it as a lie? You need to prove it a lie before giving me a warning, otherwise you'd just be giving a forewarning based off of emotion.

 

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1 hour ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Really? That is a really bold and false claim. We also do not call upon the Prophet or Ali as if they are gods who can do what Allah is capable of. Tawassul is the concept referring to asking any of the ma'sumeen to pray on our behalf to Allah. That does not constitute shirk. In fact Allah says in the Quran: O you who believe! Be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness (wasilah) to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful. [5:35]

The verse you quoted is restricted to Allah and not any other parties so this doesn't make much sense to post this.

Tawassul is only permitted for those who are alive. Not anyone dead.

1 hour ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

What is wrong with taqiyyah? Do you even know what the concept of taqiyyah is?

Taqiyyah is part of your faith and the Liar Paradox embodied.

 

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1 hour ago, AliTanjiro said:

Wow thanks. That’s what I mean I’m a liar because I’ve never cursed thank you very much. I’ve obviously got no proof on shiachat but in person if you knew me you would know. Also in regards to not knowing the truth is I don’t care if the scholar is sunni/Shia if he’s speaking haqq I like to learn or listen. You can learn from others to you know. If a Sunni scholar said 1 + 1 = 2 should I not accept the answer if it’s correct? 
 

you literally proved my point 

You see, Zainuu also said he doesn't and never has cursed the Sahaba but I peeped him cursing one not too long ago. He swore on Allah he never did it, yet he cursed a companion (I think it was Mu'awiyah). I don't like to generalize, but when you hear the same statements over and over again that continuously follow the contradictory cycle, it becomes hard to believe. You become embellished in disbelieving the other side and numb to what's being said to you due to expecting differently but resulting the same nonetheless. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but it's hard for me to trust people who say that. I think you may be telling the truth because of how you're approaching.

If a Sunni scholar says Abu Bakr was the best man after the Messenger of Allah (and previous prophets/messengers), would you not accept this, due to this being an authentic, universal, objective truth? You can learn math from an atheist or a blasphemer. Doesn't really change much. When it comes to religion, it's a different ball game. 

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17 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

How is it a lie and why should this constitute a warning? Wouldn't it make more sense to actually clear it up instead of stating it as a lie? You need to prove it a lie before giving me a warning, otherwise you'd just be giving a forewarning based off of emotion.

 

Your claim was that one who has not said 'Ya Ali' or 'Ya Fatima' is not a twelver. 

This claim is false and baseless. 

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59 minutes ago, AliTanjiro said:

I love how they think taqiya is literraly used in day to day lives. Al hamdullilah I’ve never been in a situation to ever have to lie to protect myself. My best friends are followed of Shafi madhab. I pray with them and no need to lie.if someone came to kill me because I believe in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then go ahead I still wouldn’t lie I but guess everyone is different depending one situation.  I didn’t even have to comment and tell you my life story @Nightclaw but I did so Mabye you can think that not all people are the same. If you go through some things I post on shiachat you will notice I mention my sunni friends everywhere and I get along with sunnis well. 

I've got nothing against you nor am I coming from you. However, you also need to look around and see the reality of where I come from. When I first came on this site, I was interested in seeing opposing views. I got the real taste of what Shi'aChat is all about and I met many Shi'a in real life. Of course, not all are the same. I think there's about 3 people on this entire website who I can stand that are Shi'a and they know who they are.

The others will lie or get emotional. Nothing puts me off than a man who acts like a woman instead of engaging in a decent conversation. That's a waste of time. That's what I realized here. I'll probably get banned entirely sooner or later, so I won't be able to respond to anything. 

I've gotten enough I need to know from everyone here. Mocking, insulting, and outstanding students of Sheikh Nasir ad-Din Al-Google. You seem like a nice lad. I'm not calling you out, but in general. I haven't seen anything vulgar from you.

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Just now, Mahdavist said:

Your claim was that one who has not said 'Ya Ali' or 'Ya Fatima' is not a twelver. 

This claim is false and baseless. 

This alone constitutes a warning? That sounds ridiculous to me. Instead of educating, the first thing you do is go for a ban? Imam 'Ali surely would have had patience and been upright and patient. Try to follow in his footsteps, as you claim to do. After all, he left disbelievers lead the Muslims for 26 years!

So can you name me other Shi'a sects who believe that saying these two is permissible in terms of worship?

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1 hour ago, Warilla said:

@Nightclaw 

Taqqiya is accepted only in extreme circumstances to protect your life.

But it's not a praised act. 

Martyrdom is the superior choice.

Also an Imam can't do Taqqiya as there role is to guide.

I was a 12er and the majority of average guys I knew did not do taqqiya and were honest in their discourse.

But I do have first hand experience of scholars Qom/najaf graduates giving contradicting answers to different people on the status of the 1st 3 caliphs. But the majority would give straight honest answers

Perhaps there's a difference of opinion. Zaydi's I've met stated that Taqiyyah is rejected for them.

Wouldn't it make sense they were honest with you?

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3 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

This alone constitutes a warning? That sounds ridiculous to me. Instead of educating, the first thing you do is go for a ban? Imam 'Ali surely would have had patience and been upright and patient. Try to follow in his footsteps, as you claim to do. After all, he left disbelievers lead the Muslims for 26 years!

So can you name me other Shi'a sects who believe that saying these two is permissible in terms of worship?

There is no ban and there was no formal warning, just an informal one. 

You made a false and baseless claim. Either you are making the claim on ignorance, in which case I ask you to avoid making statements about things you are ignorant of, or you are lying, in which case I ask you to stop lying.

The first instance will be excused as a mistake. A second one will not. 

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Just now, Mahdavist said:

There is no ban and there was no formal warning, just an informal one. 

Still senseless. Why did this constitute a warning at all?

1 minute ago, Mahdavist said:

You made a false and baseless claim. Either you are making the claim on ignorance, in which case I ask you to avoid making statements about things you are ignorant of, or you are lying, in which case I ask you to stop lying.

Baseless? Sure, but how is it baseless? You keep reiterating the same thing as if you were a parrot but you're failing to show otherwise. You've stated I'm lying but failed to prove how.

2 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

The first instance will be excused as a mistake. A second one will not. 

Until I'm proven wrong, I'll stick by my original statement. 

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17 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

You see, Zainuu also said he doesn't and never has cursed the Sahaba but I peeped him cursing one not too long ago. He swore on Allah he never did it, yet he cursed a companion (I think it was Mu'awiyah

Haha.

Dear brother Nightclaw,

What a lie you are putting on me. I did an oath and here it is:

'I never cursed the three Caliphs.'

I curse Muawiya. And Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) curse be on Muawiya.

I don't think cursing muawiya even goes against the forum guidelines.

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgive you for this.

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6 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Baseless? Sure, but how is it baseless? You keep reiterating the same thing as if you were a parrot but you're failing to show otherwise. You've stated I'm lying but failed to prove how.

Your claim was that one who hasn't said Ya Ali or Ya Fatima is not a Twelver. 

In reality, being a twelver is not defined by uttering either of these phrases. 

You have therefore attributed a false condition to being a twelver which doesn't exist.

As for your question of why a warning may be issued, it is because we do not encourage lying and spreading misinformation on our forum. 

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6 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Your claim was that one who hasn't said Ya Ali or Ya Fatima is not a Twelver. 

In reality, being a twelver is not defined by uttering either of these phrases. 

So you don't have to say Ya 'Ali to be a Twelver? This is your claim, correct?

7 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

You have therefore attributed a false condition to being a twelver which doesn't exist.

As for your question of why a warning may be issued, it is because we do not encourage lying and spreading misinformation on our forum. 

This is ironic. You don't believe in lying or spreading misinformation only when it comes to the Shi'a perspective, right? But when lies about the companions that you believe in are spread and proven otherwise, it's alright? You seemed like a fair person a while back, but your hypocrisy has come to light. 

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28 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Perhaps there's a difference of opinion. Zaydi's I've met stated that Taqiyyah is rejected for them.

Wouldn't it make sense they were honest with you?

Maybe they meant taqqiya as a principlen as in  the 12er sense 

As a zaidi it's not a principle it's just more common sense. 

It can't be rejected if your life is in danger you can choose to preserve. But it has to be imminent death.  Then you can ask forgiveness for the sin of lying.

Becoming a martyr is a great act.

But you can not misguide in matters of deen and it's not allowed for those in authority. It's just personal preservation.

As in the case of Amar bin Yasir ?

I'll try find an official scholars opinion.

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4 minutes ago, Warilla said:

Maybe they meant taqqiya as a principlen as in  the 12er sense 

As a zaidi it's not a principle it's just more common sense. 

It can't be rejected if your life is in danger you can choose to preserve. But it has to be imminent death.  Then you can ask forgiveness for the sin of lying.

Becoming a martyr is a great act.

But you can not misguide in matters of deen and it's not allowed for those in authority. It's just personal preservation.

As in the case of Amar bin Yasir ?

I'll try find an official scholars opinion.

I think so too. Everything you said they said for the most part. We mainly discussed Twelver-Zaydi relationship. 

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18 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

So you don't have to say Ya 'Ali to be a Twelver? This is your claim, correct?

That is a correct claim.

18 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

This is ironic. You don't believe in lying or spreading misinformation only when it comes to the Shi'a perspective, right? But when lies about the companions that you believe in are spread and proven otherwise, it's alright? You seemed like a fair person a while back, but your hypocrisy has come to light. 

We do not spread lies. You are accusing us of being intentional sinners. We have our perspective. You Sunnis have your perspective. Do not try to put down other Muslims who believe in Allah and His Messenger. The Muslim Ummah should be united not divided.

 

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15 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Importance has nothing to do with amount of narrations actually.

Understand the beliefs:

Shias - Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) and Aimma Tahereen,

Narrators of Hadith who narrate directly from any of the above.

Sunnis - Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Narrators - Companions (Sahaba), Next gen after Companions (Tabaee), next gen and so on who narrated from the above.

 

You see where Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is for shias and where he is for Sunnis. 

They don't keep him below other companions, but they also don't elevate his status above them where they should do so.

Exactly! Very well said! Even if some of them claim that they too love aal-e-Muhammad (عليه السلام) to a great extent, they fail to show that in their actions. And cannot digest the victory, rights and innocence of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

P.s.: they may not even know ahlulbayt(عليه السلام) after Hussain (عليه السلام), like Imam sajjad(عليه السلام), Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) and so on, because they've never made to learn all these instead what they embed during their learning period is the same "basic" islam.(this is what i think, opinions may vary, Im sry if this hurted your feelings jn any way)

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