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In the Name of God بسم الله

Did imam Ali go against the orders of the prophet?

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When pointing out umar’s hypocrisy being exposed on Thursday in the Hadith of the pen and paper, Sunnis clutch straws to show that imam Ali (عليه السلام) also “disobeyed” the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) like with this: 

should this mean Shias also clutch straws when viewing such hadiths that view umar in a negative light in ways to suit our own narrative a fuel an agenda? 

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What is the issue? Imam Ali isn’t being mentioned and the Hadith is discussing  men from Kufa entering a Hammam and the bather informs them that the Prophet said  it is haram for them to view each other’s private area, regardless of whether they were believers. So he shredded pieces of cloth for them to cover those areas before they entered. The person who is narrating the Hadith says that I entered with my father, my grandfather, and my uncle - Imam Ali is attested by the apostle of Allah to be the gate of his knowledge, therefore, in accordance to the utterance of our Prophet one can deduce that Imam Ali will know all that a bather knows when it comes to matters of Halal and Haram. The case of Umar is a more political one - not one of ignorance; Allah knows best. 

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6 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

What is the issue? Imam Ali isn’t being mentioned and the Hadith is discussing  men from Kufa entering a Hammam and the bather informs them that the Prophet said  it is haram for them to view each other’s private area, regardless of whether they were believers. So he shredded pieces of cloth for them to cover those areas before they entered. The person who is narrating the Hadith says that I entered with my father, my grandfather, and my uncle - Imam Ali is attested by the apostle of Allah to be the gate of his knowledge, therefore, in accordance to the utterance of our Prophet one can deduce that Imam Ali will know all that a bather knows when it comes to matters of Halal and Haram. The case of Umar is a more political one - not one of ignorance; Allah knows best. 

Forgot to mention; they’re trying to say the imam’s sunnah is different to that of the prophet; thoughts?

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1 hour ago, zahralzu said:

Forgot to mention; they’re trying to say the imam’s sunnah is different to that of the prophet; thoughts?

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“They’re trying to say” and them saying are two very different things, there is a context within the story that may be circumstantial. As you may know there are A’Hadith which are both Saheeh, yet negate each other, therefore, it is necessary to have the foresight and capability to discern the Hadith and not simply using the authenticity of a Hadith as a clear cut Hujjah. There are Saheeh A’Hadith that can be fabricated and, therefore, one does not merely really on the strength of a Hadith to reach a unequivocal conclusion. 

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20 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

“They’re trying to say” and them saying are two very different things, there is a context within the story that may be circumstantial. As you may know there are A’Hadith which are both Saheeh, yet negate each other, therefore, it is necessary to have the foresight and capability to discern the Hadith and not simply using the authenticity of a Hadith as a clear cut Hujjah. There are Saheeh A’Hadith that can be fabricated and, therefore, one does not merely really on the strength of a Hadith to reach a unequivocal conclusion. 

I suppose all of this is ultimately going back to their biggest argument of all; their attempt to declare umar's innocence for refusing the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) to write his will that will prevent us from going astray given Umar was only looking out for the prophet's health and didn't want him to exert energy out of love and respect for him, which is supposedly no different to when imam ali (عليه السلام) refused to erase 'prophet' from the hudaybia treaty, also out of love and respect for him. I know this isn't the same, but what do you say to those who genuinely think of these two scenarios as the same?

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19 minutes ago, zahralzu said:

I suppose all of this is ultimately going back to their biggest argument of all; their attempt to declare umar's innocence for refusing the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) to write his will that will prevent us from going astray given Umar was only looking out for the prophet's health and didn't want him to exert energy out of love and respect for him, which is supposedly no different to when imam ali (عليه السلام) refused to erase 'prophet' from the hudaybia treaty, also out of love and respect for him. I know this isn't the same, but what do you say to those who genuinely think of these two scenarios as the same?

Imam Ali did not disobey the Prophet, rather he conveyed to him the difficulty of the task out of the remarkable love and respect he held for the Holy Prophet, as you know he did end up erasing the title of Prophet by his command. I don't see how these two scenarios are remotely comparable. 

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2 hours ago, zahralzu said:

Forgot to mention; they’re trying to say the imam’s sunnah is different to that of the prophet; thoughts?

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Following Sunnah is Mustahab.

If Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) used dyes, it doesn't mean its obligatory to do so.

Since we know they are Masoom, there must be a reason if Ali (عليه السلام) didnt do so.

Also you see that part of hadith:

The Grand Father of Hanan says Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did so and so.....

His name is Hakeem bin Suhaib and he is Majhool see:

3898 - 3897 - 3907 - الحكم بن صهيب: الصيرفي الكوفي، أبو سدير - من أصحاب السجاد، والباقر، والصادق (ع) - مجهول -

They might say Imam testified to his words by saying you have spoken the truth and proved your point but it could be interpreted in a different sense than what that is written since it would be more suitable. It could mean Imam mean according to you (suhaib) you have spoken truth and proved your point. Then Imam told him that in this case, best of all would be Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) so why not follow his Sunnah.

But enemies of AhleBait have to use all this to de grade AhleBait (عليه السلام).

 

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