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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Does Evil Exist? (Seyyed Hossein Nasr) 4 min

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9 minutes ago, Cool said:

Obviously ................ mathematics.

But in logic, circular reasoning is that whick is lacking the explanation of premise. For instance:

" God is great" if one tries to explain it by saying "because He is God".

 

Where is it a fallacy? Now if you substitute God with man okay no problems.

 

But we witness feed back loops in nature and they take the form of circles. 

This statement circlar logic = fallacy  , because of circlar reasoning  is circlar reasoning therefore.

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Nice video. Question of existence of evil can be divided into two questions: 1. Question of creation of world 2. Question of creation of human being. Because world is the ground on

Relevant hadith on Iblees:  

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1 minute ago, azizaliallah said:

Where is it a fallacy?

It is considered a fallacy in logic, although it may not be a fallacy for the one who knows God. But for him too, the second assertion "because he is God" would become absurd. 

For the one who knows "God" can be satisfied with the phrase "God is great". 

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3 minutes ago, Cool said:

It is considered a fallacy in logic, although.......

Answer :

This statement circlar logic = fallacy  , because of circlar reasoning  is circlar reasoning therefore?

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2 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

circlar logic = fallacy  , because of circlar reasoning  is circlar reasoning therefore?

It is circular itself therefore a fallacy. 

Circular logic = Fallacy 

because it failed to prove what is intended. 

As I said, circular reasoning may sound convincing too, but consider who will most likely be convinced by a circular argument. Those who already accept the argument as true are more likely to be further convinced. This is because they already believe the assumption that is stated.

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10 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

There's a minority Islamic opinion among scholars that Iblis is an angel and not a jinn...as such he has no freewill...those who maintain this view see Iblis acting as an instrument of Allah's will...their opinion is that Iblis' creation is being used to fulfill a hidden cosmic plan and see his disobedience as impersonal and preordained (e.g. "because You have caused me to go astray" Qur'an 7:16)...Allah installed a fiery, rebellious temperament in him in order to help him facilitate the task of swaying humans...this is comparable to other angels (e.g. Michael, Gabriel etc.) who are simultaneously fulfilling their intended purposes and designated with tasks corresponding to their own innate natures...the school of thought says that because Iblis is fulfilling his intended mission statement he will be spared Hell and be admitted into Paradise.

This is the beauty of the Quran, you can interpret it however you like to suit your argument... you can't lose!

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Posted (edited)

God says in the Quran all that is good is from God and all that is evil is from yourselves , so man creates evil by using free will to invert what is allowed or to compound what is allowed or to twist what is allowed or to negate what is allowed or to go to extremes of what is allowed which results in evil , and evil doesn’t effect God it effects us and the world around us , but in the end even evil can’t change something which God doesn’t allow to be changed 

Quran says if all the mankind and jinn were to come together to try to make something to occur and God doesn’t allow it to occur it wouldn’t happen , which makes sense how can a finite small creation change the will of power of an infinite being God it wouldn’t be possible that a crumb can effect the power of the universe so how can we all of us change something that God protects with his infinite power 

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1 hour ago, theEndIsNear said:

so man creates evil by using free will to invert what is allowed or to compound what is allowed or to twist what is allowed or to negate what is allowed or to go to extremes of what is allowed which results in evil

Men & Jinn too. Both of them have the freewill.

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4 minutes ago, Cool said:

Men & Jinn too. Both of them have the freewill.

Obviously, but what’s ur point here, do u mean that they can effect change upon you? Where it’s out of your controlling or doing like some kind of soft possession?

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10 minutes ago, theEndIsNear said:

but what’s ur point here

I just want to include jinn here. Satan also is a Jinn & his disobedience of not prostrating before Adam (عليه السلام) was because of his freewill. 

Being Satan, he is enjoying God given life, which is good. 

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1 hour ago, theEndIsNear said:

God says in the Quran all that is good is from God and all that is evil is from yourselves , so man creates evil by using free will to invert what is allowed or to compound what is allowed or to twist what is allowed or to negate what is allowed or to go to extremes of what is allowed which results in evil , and evil doesn’t effect God it effects us and the world around us , but in the end even evil can’t change something which God doesn’t allow to be changed 

Quran says if all the mankind and jinn were to come together to try to make something to occur and God doesn’t allow it to occur it wouldn’t happen , which makes sense how can a finite small creation change the will of power of an infinite being God it wouldn’t be possible that a crumb can effect the power of the universe so how can we all of us change something that God protects with his infinite power 

If i were to explain the above, I would say that everything God has created is good, as long as it's used as it is supposed to be within limits. For example, food is good, but too much food can lead to bad health. Lust is good as it helps with reproduction of species and marriage, but lust is really bad when used for rape etc. Anger is good when used within it's limit. So there really is nothing that is inherently "evil", it is the misuse of it which makes it bad.

So I don't have any issues with above argument.

I get really stuck when I start thinking about why God has allowed misuse of things to this disagree, why He wanted to test creation etc. For example if we all had varying degrees of direct divine knowledge, let's say we were all at the levels (or sublevels) of Prophets/Imams (who also had free will), we could create a perfect world. You might say where would be the challenge or test in that, everything would be perfect... what's wrong with everything being perfect? Why God created an imperfect creation so that they perfect themselves through free will?

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

 

I get really stuck when I start thinking about why God has allowed misuse of things to this disagree, why He wanted to test creation etc. For example if we all had varying degrees of direct divine knowledge, let's say we were all at the levels (or sublevels) of Prophets/Imams (who also had free will), we could create a perfect world. You might say where would be the challenge or test in that, everything would be perfect... what's wrong with everything being perfect? Why God created an imperfect creation so that they perfect themselves through free will?

Soo... why are we not at a more perfect level than this, so we could not do all those horrible things we do? 

Is that what you ask?

If so then, still imperfection will still remain, and if we were on that level, we would see those imperfections the same way we do evil now.... for example we might see catcalling as bad as rape at that level... so really nothing would change...

Although,  one may say that we're gonna reach that level of perfection eventually so is that worth it? Well, probably, after seeing this much imperfection, the imperfections of paradise would be bliss!

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, theEndIsNear said:

all that is good is from God and all that is evil is from yourselves

@theEndIsNear, Allow me to play devil's advocate or play the role of antagonist here for a second...some Sunni mystics (i.e. Mansūr-e Hallāj, Abū Ḥāmid al-Ġazālī etc.) maintain that Satan refused to bow to Adam out of a deep respect and love for Allah...they say that the request to prostrate before Adam was merely a test which he passed with flying colors - by the way, this belief mirrors the view held by the Yazidi religion - by deemphasizing or diminishing the degree of evil within Satan the concept of cosmological dualism likewise diminishes...this - in turn - pushes forward the Sufi notion of universal unity of existence (i.e. Waḥdat al-Wujūd)...Sufis see Allah as the root cause behind all of creation (including evil)...so even though evil originated from mankind...mankind is the direct result of Allah's handiwork...hence, Allah would be the indirect author of evil (in the sense that He passively allowed human beings to commit sin/evil and didn't see fit to stop it)…the idea that a created being (i.e. man, jinn, angel etc.) has the ability to bring something into existence from nothing or create is seen as shirk by many Sufis.

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1 hour ago, Eddie Mecca said:

some Sunni mystics (i.e. Mansūr-e Hallāj, Abū Ḥāmid al-Ġazālī etc.) maintain that Satan refused to bow to Adam out of a deep respect and love for Allah...they say that the request to prostrate before Adam was merely a test which he passed with flying colors -

Well Quran doesn't support such views.

One would ask if Satan's refusal was because of his deep respect or love for God & he has passed the test with flying colors, why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has used the word "Rajeem" for him & have cursed him instead of praising him?

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

why God has allowed misuse of things to this disagree, why He wanted to test creation etc

"And if your Lord had pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation, and they shall continue to differ. Except those on whom your Lord has mercy; and for this did He create them; " (11:118-119) 

Quote

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

These verses indicate that Allah has given man free choice to develop his native endowments. There is no compulsion. Only those who submit their will to the will of Allah do not differ. On them the Lord bestows His mercy, and for that He has created them. Those who differ are deprived of the mercy of Allah. 

 

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18 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

This is the beauty of the Quran, you can interpret it however you like to suit your argument... you can't lose!

Interpretations are various. But some words cannot have multiple meanings example 'jinn' (18:50), 'sacred mosque' (17:1), 'angel' etc.

This is like 2+2 = 4 and it cannot be anything else, whatever you might do to it.

So, Satan was a jinn and nothing else because he was called so straight away in 18:50. Statements like 'He was of the jinn', even if you check the context, will only give one interpretation and that is that he was a jinn. 

Interestingly, I once saw some debate where a christian was trying to argue that the arabic of Jesus is not Isa so Quran never mentions jesus. That was laughable. Because Proper nouns don't change with language. They are not translated, they might hold different pronounciations.

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16 hours ago, theEndIsNear said:

Obviously, but what’s ur point here, do u mean that they can effect change upon you? Where it’s out of your controlling or doing like some kind of soft possession?

This might be an interesting read. A related article. 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Why God created an imperfect creation so that they perfect themselves through free will?

Whatever God creates is perfect.

Human being is perfect since his creation. 

This is the contact of human being with this (perfect) world (in it's own sense) that gives birth to imperfection.

Surah ash Shams 91:6

There are numerous instances in the Quran which says that Allah has created everything perfect. 

But the relation between all this brings imperfection. One might argue on Satan. 

But Satan is also a perfectly created creature. Has Allah  (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) taken something away from his perfect form? No.

Yes, he himself has contributed to defect within himself through arrogance. 

As Quran says,  "All prostrated except Iblis..."

Similar human beings add defects to there perfect forms through disobedience.

13:11 - For him [i.e., each one] are successive [angels]1 before and behind him who protect him by the decree of Allah.2 Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves. And when Allah intends for a people ill,3 there is no repelling it. And there is not for them besides Him any patron.

So, basically, it is we who change our perfect form and not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This change is itself an evidence that we have a freewill. But also supports that we become imperfect.

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16 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Why God created an imperfect creation so that they perfect themselves through free will?

All creation is perfect, which is true by definition, in that all the molecules interact properly and their intended essence intact. Veils of affliction that exist in the world only hide and deceive away from this fact, but do not eliminate or disprove this perfection. 

Our common understanding of perfection is relativistic, and is the approaching point for molecules and souls constantly on the move, away from the evil injustice of stagnation. 

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On 1/6/2021 at 8:16 AM, khamosh21 said:

This is the beauty of the Quran, you can interpret it however you like to suit your argument... you can't lose!

When Islam has a rich diversity of opinion on a subject you say, "why so many interpretations?"...if Islam advocates uniformity of connotation then you say, "why so rigid, narrow and hellbent on conformist assimilation?"

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On 1/6/2021 at 7:40 AM, Cool said:

But why you are considering "spreading evilness" as good?  Any specific reason?

I'm not saying that Spreading evilness is something good... I'm simply saying that shaytan is good at spreading evilness...and he is good in his job (but that doesn't mean he is the only source of evilness) and we should seek refuge from him:) 

According to me I won't understand the meaning of good without experiencing evil...both elements are necessary and we are born with the knowledge of both of these elements...and this makes easy for us to define our circumstances...

I found this really informative content to share with you guys:

"Human beings are not free to choose in many things. We cannot choose to live without eating, we cannot choose to live without drinking, and we cannot choose to live without sleeping. However, we are completely free in one thing: we can choose between good and evil. Life is about options, and decisions, and situations to choose between; good and evil are in front of us as options. We make our decisions, and God creates good and evil based on our decisions. It is inherent in Islam to believe that both good and evil comes from God."

You can continue reading on this website:

https://fountainmagazine.com/2005/issue-50-april-june-2005/good-and-evil-in-islam

@Eddie Mecca thanks for sharing this interesting point of view

On 1/6/2021 at 4:12 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

There's a minority Islamic opinion among scholars that Iblis is an angel and not a jinn...as such he has no freewill...those who maintain this view see Iblis acting as an instrument of Allah's will...their opinion is that Iblis' creation is being used to fulfill a hidden cosmic plan and see his disobedience as impersonal and preordained (e.g. "because You have caused me to go astray" Qur'an 7:16)...Allah installed a fiery, rebellious temperament in him in order to help him facilitate the task of swaying humans...this is comparable to other angels (e.g. Michael, Gabriel etc.) who are simultaneously fulfilling their intended purposes and designated with tasks corresponding to their own innate natures...the school of thought says that because Iblis is fulfilling his intended mission statement he will be spared Hell and be admitted into Paradise.

But I don't believe in this:)

Iblis is a Jin made of fire and has a free will ... He had tow options ...and decided to disobey Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...but he is not pure evilness ..we can't say that all the evilness comes from him (iblis used to pray a lot and angels were impressed by that so they asked god to bring iblis to "arsh" ... Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said ok if you want to then bring him to us ... Now to test him, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) asked everyone to do sajda but iblis showed his true intentions by disobeying God)

There is a nice informative video it is in Urdu ( If someone needs translation...just let me know I'll do it)

 

 

 

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Evil is relative so technically evil isn’t some constant that applies to the universe as a universal law , what’s forbidden to us is not forbidden to another type of creature , technically evil is anything which harms u oppresses u depresses u , causes ur nature to suppress or ur soul to stunt , even the Quran talks specifically about the stunning the growth is the soul doesn’t necessarily say evil like some external force, it talks about stunting and growth of soul 

so anything which causes u to go backwards or stunts ur growth or ur souls reach is technically evil , veils u from truth technically evil, veils u from God technicality evil, sends u astray technically and it makes sense that evil is something that’s anti soul because certain things say alcohol doesn’t hurt anyone but you, certainly doesn’t hurt God , but it’s evil and evil cause it harms u stunts u

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On 1/7/2021 at 3:10 AM, khamosh21 said:

If i were to explain the above, I would say that everything God has created is good, as long as it's used as it is supposed to be within limits. For example, food is good, but too much food can lead to bad health. Lust is good as it helps with reproduction of species and marriage, but lust is really bad when used for rape etc. Anger is good when used within it's limit. So there really is nothing that is inherently "evil", it is the misuse of it which makes it bad.

So I don't have any issues with above argument.

I get really stuck when I start thinking about why God has allowed misuse of things to this disagree, why He wanted to test creation etc. For example if we all had varying degrees of direct divine knowledge, let's say we were all at the levels (or sublevels) of Prophets/Imams (who also had free will), we could create a perfect world. You might say where would be the challenge or test in that, everything would be perfect... what's wrong with everything being perfect? Why God created an imperfect creation so that they perfect themselves through free will?

God didn’t create an imperfect creation, He specifically says He created perfect creation , ur issue seems to be with free will , u don’t like that free will can change perfect into imperfect 

well that’s the challenge of life , u can fall or u can become even more perfect , outgrow ur beginning state and reached higher perfection which is kinda the point of life , Quran says some people become worse than a cow , their soul deforms so much that they’re not even animal soul but less than that , and some reach even higher stations than angels which of course isn’t easy and not many achieve , but that’s the challenge of life 

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Edited by Eddie Mecca
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I had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Mahmoud Ayoub twice and spending the entire day with him on both occasions.

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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1 minute ago, PureExistence1 said:

Salaam, 

Can you link to the full lecture? Id be very interested to watch the unedited version as well.

Walaikum Salam, I was looking for it on YouTube but unfortunately to no avail. The channel has another similar edited video about Joseph (عليه السلام) and Zuleikha 

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On 1/7/2021 at 5:21 AM, Justsomeone said:

Soo... why are we not at a more perfect level than this, so we could not do all those horrible things we do? 

Is that what you ask?

If so then, still imperfection will still remain, and if we were on that level, we would see those imperfections the same way we do evil now.... for example we might see catcalling as bad as rape at that level... so really nothing would change...

Although,  one may say that we're gonna reach that level of perfection eventually so is that worth it? Well, probably, after seeing this much imperfection, the imperfections of paradise would be bliss!

I don't think I get the reasoning. Considering that I can imagine far worse crimes currently than rape, and I'm thankful that majority of humanity is not committing those crimes.

What I'm asking is why God has kept rewards and punishment for actions hidden from us and expects us to just believe in certain people about them? What benefit does it serve IF THE PURPOSE OF CREATION is to reach perfection?

I find Prophethood to be an extremely inefficient method to deliver the truth... by Prophethood  I mean the idea that less than .0001% of humanity gets knowledge of reality and the rest have to believe in those individuals, not to mention these Prophets existed so many centuries ago.

 

 

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On 1/9/2021 at 3:21 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

When Islam has a rich diversity of opinion on a subject you say, "why so many interpretations?"...if Islam advocates uniformity of connotation then you say, "why so rigid, narrow and hellbent on conformist assimilation?"

Where have I sad the latter part of your statement?

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On 1/17/2021 at 7:59 PM, khamosh21 said:

I don't think I get the reasoning. Considering that I can imagine far worse crimes currently than rape, and I'm thankful that majority of humanity is not committing those crimes.

What I'm asking is why God has kept rewards and punishment for actions hidden from us and expects us to just believe in certain people about them? What benefit does it serve IF THE PURPOSE OF CREATION is to reach perfection?

I find Prophethood to be an extremely inefficient method to deliver the truth... by Prophethood  I mean the idea that less than .0001% of humanity gets knowledge of reality and the rest have to believe in those individuals, not to mention these Prophets existed so many centuries ago.

 

 

A student who usually gets high marks in test, let's say above 90% on average will dread having 70% and treat it as if he got 50%. Same thing might happen here, a more perfect person will treat even small mistakes as sins like tark-e-awlas for prophets.

Using the same analogy of test here, not many students get near perfect marks, only a few do. It's the same thing in life, only few people are near perfection, us laypeople should follow their example and try to reach perfection too.

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On 1/6/2021 at 9:28 PM, Cool said:

I just want to include jinn here. Satan also is a Jinn & his disobedience of not prostrating before Adam (عليه السلام) was because of his freewill. 

Being Satan, he is enjoying God given life, which is good. 

About shaitaan and iblees....
1. It was Iblis who refused to prostrate before Adam, not Shaitaan.
2. It was Shaitaan who deceived Adam, not Iblis, infact Iblis was not there in
    Jannah with Adam and his partner.
3. After shaitaan deceived Iblees to believe that he is fire Iblees becomes Jinn.
4. After shaitaan deceived Adam to believe that he is the body, Adam 
    becomes Man (Insaan).
5. Shaitaan is part of Adam and Iblees.
6. Iblees and Adam living in same world.
7. Iblees thinks he is fire. 
8. Shaitaan does not have a body.
9. Army of Shaitaan is desires and fears.
10.Shaitaan cannot be destroyed, Man can only overcome shaitaan.


 

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Where is evil, where is suffering; the joy of living is paramount. Look, how everything clings to life, how dear the existence is.
This world is created for you or we can say that the world Is because you Are.

It is you who filled this world with all good and evil.

On 1/6/2021 at 7:51 PM, theEndIsNear said:

God says in the Quran all that is good is from God and all that is evil is from yourselves

Evil is the stench of a mind (my/your mind) that is diseased. Heal your mind and it will cease to project distorted, ugly pictures.
You alone can undo the evil you have created. Your own callous selfishness is at the root of it. Put first your own house in order and you will see that your work is done.  
In every concrete situation there is only the necessary and the unnecessary.
But In your world the pleasant is good and the painful is evil.

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On 1/7/2021 at 3:40 AM, Zainuu said:

Whatever God creates is perfect.

 

On 1/7/2021 at 4:09 AM, Reza said:

All creation is perfect

I'm not sure I agree with these statements. I don't believe the material world is perfect but it's "perfect enough" to recognize the existence of a Grand Designer. How do you brothers define "perfection"?

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4 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

I don't believe the material world is perfect but it's "perfect enough" to recognize the existence of a Grand Designer. How do you brothers define "perfection"?

Perfection has it's own kind. 

Like Satan is perfect in deviating us. Like a perfect wine or any drug would be the one that causes the loss of self-control in a perfect sense.

In simple words, perfect creation is the one which fulfills the objective of it's creation completely. A creation that is complete with all the features that were installed in it according to there respective proportions.

 

Like in a movie, an actor or actress completely fits the role he/she is given. If a woman has to play a scholar, she plays it in a way that every aspect of her actions and methods fits that role completely.

This perfection is not the same as the perfection of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Perfection of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is absolute while the perfection alotted to us is relative. 

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