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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Does Evil Exist? (Seyyed Hossein Nasr) 4 min

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Nice video. Question of existence of evil can be divided into two questions: 1. Question of creation of world 2. Question of creation of human being. Because world is the ground on

Relevant hadith on Iblees:  

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8 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

 

do you know where i can find ibn arabi and ghazali's writings on the issues he has referred above...

He says God created the world because He wanted to be known... next question is why did He want to be known, and in this manner?

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Posted (edited)

Here is that hadith:

کنت کنزاً مخفیاً فأحببت أن أعرف فخلقت الخلق لکی أعرف

I was a Treasure unknown then I desired to be known so I created a creation to which I made Myself known; then they knew Me.

According to Sufi's, the reason for the creation of this universe and mankind is the "manifestation" and "recognition" of Himself as it is stated in this Hadith.

55 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

next question is why did He want to be known,

So that the knower worship Him.

وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ

51:56

None is worthy of worship but You, O Lord! 

Edited by Cool
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5 minutes ago, Cool said:

کنت کنزاً مخفیاً فأحببت أن أعرف فخلقت الخلق لکی أعرف

I was a Treasure unknown then I desired to be known so I created a creation to which I made Myself known; then they knew Me.

Treasure/Hidden value + No creation = Treasure can never be experienced

Treasure/Hidden Value + Creation = Treasure May be Known

ibn Arabi is a great Islamic Thinker , too bad the Sunni world has abandoned him. Salafis hate him because he loved Ali.

There is only two non-profits groups translating his work into English. Ibn Arabi society and the Futuahat  Project one located in UK and the Other in Australia.( that i know of )
The Persians and Turks have already translated his work 600 years ago. His work is only known in a handful of sufi traditions. Shia Irfan enjoys Ibn Arabi.

Very Limited and even in Arabic resources are Limited because most Islamic Publications  shy away from Ibn Arabi, because most "orthodoxies" label him kafir at worst or 

Dangerous at best. Being the person i am, when ever the main stream says ''this is a bad guy'' i have to investigate myself.

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34 minutes ago, Cool said:

Here is that hadith:

کنت کنزاً مخفیاً فأحببت أن أعرف فخلقت الخلق لکی أعرف

I was a Treasure unknown then I desired to be known so I created a creation to which I made Myself known; then they knew Me.

According to Sufi's, the reason for the creation of this universe and mankind is the "manifestation" and "recognition" of Himself as it is stated in this Hadith.

So that the knower worship Him.

وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ

51:56

None is worthy of worship but You, O Lord! 

This is just circular reasoning: He wished to be known so he created creation. Purpose of creation is to know Him because He wanted to be known.

Secondly, if creation, or even part of creation, does not come to know Him , than doesn't it defeat the purpose of creation?

 

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additionally it doesn't explain why so much evil exists. If the idea is that all this evil ultimately results in good, please show me the good in this scenario, and how it fits with the purpose of "knowing" God:

A child gets kidnapped and repeatedly raped for several years. The child eventually dies and goes to heaven (good), the rapists all go to hell and burn forever - how is this for the ultimate good and what does it have to do with getting to know God???

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26 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

This is just circular reasoning: He wished to be known so he created creation. Purpose of creation is to know Him because He wanted to be known.

 

 What's wrong with circles?

22 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

 

A child gets kidnapped and repeatedly raped for several years. The child eventually dies and goes to heaven (good), the rapists all go to hell and burn forever - how is this for the ultimate good and what does it have to do with getting to know God???

 Why you want children to be raped?

Between life-and-death ,Pleasure and pain, Good and evil, Exists a contrast. Like Light and darkness. Death is the absence of life, pain is the absence of pleasure , Evil is the absence of good. And darkness is the absence of light. All these are circles. Tell me which one doesn't make sense and why?  Stop spreading circle phobia.

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Purpose of creation is to know Him because He wanted to be known

In order to worship, knowing Him is prerequisite. Without knowing, there cannot be a worship.

49 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

if creation, or even part of creation, does not come to know Him , than doesn't it defeat the purpose of creation?

Read the hadith once again. There are many ahadith like this. Some saying that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has created heavens & earth in the love of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Some says the first thing Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created was his light etc. These are all looks same

1 hour ago, Cool said:

I was a Treasure unknown then I desired to be known so I created a creation to which I made Myself known; then they knew Me.

There is another hadith which says

"O Ali! None has recognized Allah except you & I, none has recognized me except Allah & you and none has recognized you except Allah & me.

Apart from these traditions, Allah has said this in Quran:

 

وَمَا قَدَرُواْ اللّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ

39:67) No true understanding of Allah have they!

 

Edited by Cool
Verse reference corrected
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29 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

 What's wrong with circles?

 Why you want children to be raped?

Between life-and-death ,Pleasure and pain, Good and evil, Exists a contrast. Like Light and darkness. Death is the absence of life, pain is the absence of pleasure , Evil is the absence of good. And darkness is the absence of light. All these are circles. Tell me which one doesn't make sense and why?  Stop spreading circle phobia.

 

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving";[1] also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[2] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning is not a formal logical fallacy but a pragmatic defect in an argument whereby the premises are just as much in need of proof or evidence as the conclusion, and as a consequence the argument fails to persuade. Other ways to express this are that there is no reason to accept the premises unless one already believes the conclusion, or that the premises provide no independent ground or evidence for the conclusion.[3] Begging the question is closely related to circular reasoning, and in modern usage the two generally refer to the same thing.[4]

 

Circular reasoning is often of the form: "A is true because B is true; B is true because A is true." Circularity can be difficult to detect if it involves a longer chain of propositions.

Source:wikipedia

 

 

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41 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

Evil is the absence of good. And darkness is the absence of light. All these are circles.

Lets take Shaytan for instance! 

What is good in him? 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Cool said:

What is good in him? 

Shaytan is not one to follow but he has done good, by doing evil.

If there would be no Evil on earth..why would be there a hell?  Why would God create a hell, for good people?

If there would be only good in this world...then everyone would go in paradise...why are we then on this earth...and why not in paradise if there is only good?

Why do we believe on judgment Day ...if there is only good... about what are we going to be judged?

About just being good?

 

https://www.thesincereseeker.com/the-problem-of-evil-why-does-god-allow-suffering/

 

Edited by Ain-Al Hayat
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2 minutes ago, Ain-Al Hayat said:

Shaytan is not one to follow but he has done good, by doing evil.

This statement of yours seems weird as you are saying شر of Shaitan as his خير .

Shaitan is a living being, what about life? Is life in itself evil? 

What about knife? Is knife evil or good? It can be evil & good depending on how one uses it. 

So what "absence of goodness" itself is? Is it a good thing in itself as it keeps more space for goodness? 

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2 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Secondly, if creation, or even part of creation, does not come to know Him , than doesn't it defeat the purpose of creation?

Everyone knows him. 

The denial of truth with clear proofs is known as kufr. Not just being unaware about the truth.

Surah Baqarah verse 14-18.

This is about hypocrites.

But in reality everyone knows that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is. But it is just are states of minds which make up a case of neglectance, doubt or acceptance.

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13 minutes ago, Cool said:

This statement of yours seems weird as you are saying شر of Shaitan as his خير .

No... maybe I didn't explained it better

I'm not saying shaytan is good creature..but through his job which is spreading evilness we can difference between good and bad ..in that sense he does good by being evil ...lol it is indeed complicated to explain this logic of mine 

I hope you can get that what I mean

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11 minutes ago, Ain-Al Hayat said:

lol it is indeed complicated to explain this logic of mine 

Actually it is not .... I agree my statement is confusing but this is what I mean or kinda.. I'm making easy for you to understand @Cool

He is a bad person or creature..but he is excellent or good by doing his job ... which is spreading evilness 

Yor question was:

1 hour ago, Cool said:

What is good in him? 

So this was my answer to your question... indeed he is fitnah but good at his job ...now it's up to you ...if you consider this something good or bad

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Everyone knows him. 

The denial of truth with clear proofs is known as kufr. Not just being unaware about the truth.

those unaware of the truth does not equal "everyone knows him"

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51 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

those unaware of the truth

That is the point. Everyone has a brain which cannot deny at any cost the existence of god. 

The denial can only happen if someone doesn't accept.

 

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8 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

 What's wrong with circles?

Between life-and-death ,Pleasure and pain, Good and evil, Exists a contrast. Like Light and darkness. Death is the absence of life, pain is the absence of pleasure , Evil is the absence of good. And darkness is the absence of light. All these are circles. Tell me which one doesn't make sense and why?  Stop spreading circle phobia.

i agree with the contrast part, but please explain how any of the above fit the criteria of "circular reasoning" as understood within the subject of logic?

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1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

those unaware of the truth does not equal "everyone knows him"

you are playing the games, no More playing the games. circle in geometry in fine, circle on moon is fine, circle around earth is fine but no circles in mind?

stop taking the Romans sayings ,Romans are big Kafirs, they did so much haram and Kufir, and they convince you circles are wrong.

Hunger=the fullness=hunger

sleep=wake=sleep

peace=war=peace

Circle logic right here where is the fallacy

 

 

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11 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

you are playing the games, no More playing the games. circle in geometry in fine, circle on moon is fine, circle around earth is fine but no circles in mind?

stop taking the Romans sayings ,Romans are big Kafirs, they did so much haram and Kufir, and they convince you circles are wrong.

Hunger=the fullness=hunger

sleep=wake=sleep

peace=war=peace

Circle logic right here where is the fallacy

 

 

 

The above are not arguments, you are describing cycles... within the framework of logic, we are strictly speaking about circular arguments.

Bro i'm not about to give you basic logic (mantiq) lessons... please note logic is subject studied by all of shia ulema and used thoroughly in many islamic fields of study. Mantiq Muzaffar for example is a required subject in howza.

 

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19 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

 

i actually want to know what experts like ibn Arabi have said about this topic, and really not that interested in replies from non-experts (myself included) that are giving their best attempts.

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1 minute ago, khamosh21 said:

 

The above are not arguments, you are describing cycles... within the framework of logic, we are strictly speaking about circular arguments.

Bro i'm not about to give you basic logic (mantiq) lessons...Blah Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah . Mantiq Muzaffar for example is a required subject in Blah never been to howza blah.

 

hahahaha okay i dont remember appling at your school yar.

 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

i already knew you were desi ;) just got confirmation

hahaha i have a do not confirm or do not deny policy when it comes to personal things.

Respect To The Good Desi People Free Kashmir PAKISTAN ZINDABAD, INDIA ZINDABAD  ( down with MOLDY and BJP)

Edited by azizaliallah
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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Ain-Al Hayat said:

I hope you can get that what I mean

There's a minority Islamic opinion among scholars that Iblis is an angel and not a jinn...as such he has no freewill...those who maintain this view see Iblis acting as an instrument of Allah's will...their opinion is that Iblis' creation is being used to fulfill a hidden cosmic plan and see his disobedience as impersonal and preordained (e.g. "because You have caused me to go astray" Qur'an 7:16)...Allah installed a fiery, rebellious temperament in him in order to help him facilitate the task of swaying humans...this is comparable to other angels (e.g. Michael, Gabriel etc.) who are simultaneously fulfilling their intended purposes and designated with tasks corresponding to their own innate natures...the school of thought says that because Iblis is fulfilling his intended mission statement he will be spared Hell and be admitted into Paradise.

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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Posted (edited)

Relevant hadith on Iblees:

Quote

When Allah blew the spirit into Adam (a), He asked the angels to prostrate before Adam (a), so all did that except Iblis, exposing the jealousy in his heart; he refused to prostrate. He answered: I am superior to him, You created me from fire, and him from earth. Imam Sadiq (a) said: He resorted to Qiyas1 and was proud. First of all Iblis was arrogant, which was the first sin due to which disobedience of Allah was done. Iblis said: O Lord, excuse me from prostrating before Adam (a), and I worship You in such a way that even angels and Prophets don’t. Allah said: I am not in need of your worship; I want My worship in the way I want, not like what you want. But Iblis refused to prostrate. Allah said: Get out from here at once, because you are the rejected one, and no doubt My Curse is on you until Qiyamah. Iblis said: O Lord, how? You are absolutely just and You don’t commit injustice and oppression, would all my deeds be nullified? Allah said: No, demand whatever you want in the world in exchange of your deeds, I will give you. First of all he asked for life until the Day of Judgment, and Allah granted it. Then he asked for control over human beings, and Allah gave him that. Then he asked the power to run in the veins like blood, and it was given. Then he asked that two Shaitans should be born for one human, and Shaitans should be able to see humans, but humans should not be able to see Shaitans, and Shaitan should have the power to transform in any shape (form), Allah gave all these. Shaitans got the power to ride on the hearts of humans as well; then Shaitan said: This is enough for me now, I swear by Your honor, I will abduct all except Your sincere servants, I will attack them from front, back, right and left, and You will not find the majority thankful. Adam (a) while mentioning all the things over which Iblis got the power, said: What do You bestow to my progeny? Allah said: For your progeny, if they commit a sin, it will be recorded as one sin, and reward for good deed will be tenfold. Adam (a) requested: O Lord, increase it. He said: I will keep the door of repentance open until the last breath. He requested: O Lord, increase it. Allah said: I will forgive, I do not care (I am Needless). Adam (a) said: It is sufficient. Iblis was given all those because he offered a two unit prayer in the sky lasting for four thousand years.

https://www.hubeali.com/online-books/online-english-books/tafseer-qummi/?fbclid=IwAR1HqqlAmPiEDbx6G6caN2hysW8aaJ6lPsvOm5r988WAOt3qtkPQYS7DeXw

Tafsir Burhan, Vol. 1, Pg. 174; Biharul Anwar, Vol. 11, Pg. 142, and Vol. 60, Pg. 275. 

 

Edited by 313_Waiter
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1 hour ago, Eddie Mecca said:

There's a minority Islamic opinion among scholars that Iblis is an angel and not a jinn...as such he has no freewill...those who maintain this view see Iblis acting as an instrument of Allah's will...their opinion is that Iblis' creation is being used to fulfill a hidden cosmic plan and see his disobedience as impersonal and preordained (e.g. "because You have caused me to go astray" Qur'an 7:16)...Allah installed a fiery, rebellious temperament in him in order to help him facilitate the task of swaying humans...this is comparable to other angels (e.g. Michael, Gabriel etc.) who are simultaneously fulfilling their intended purposes and designated with tasks corresponding to their own innate natures...the school of thought says that because Iblis is fulfilling his intended mission statement he will be spared Hell and be admitted into Paradise.

As salaamun aleikum,

Very interrsting..id never heard this minority opinion before. Can you provide any links or names or further info on this? Im interested in reading further just for the sake of knowledge. Thanks!

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@shia farm girlWa aleikum salaam...This is a non-Shi'i opinion btw...consensus of Ahlul Bayt (peace be upon them) say that he (i.e. Iblis) was indeed a jinn...I was merely trying to help nudge sister Ain's argument along and help her crystalize her thoughts a bit...I found this article

 

https://tajwid.learn-quran.co/iblis-fallen-angel/
“And when We said to the angels, ‘Prostrate to Adam!’ and they prostrated, but Iblis (did not). He was of the jinn so he departed from the command of his Lord. Then will you take him and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you? Wretched it is for the wrongdoers as an exchange.”
[Quran 18: 50]

*

One of interesting issues to talk about, even actually it has no essential effect to our faith, is the question about the origin of Iblis. Was he an angel or a jinn? In some Western literatures, even it is not mentioned literally in Torah, Bible nor Quran, we find the term “fallen angels”, which refers to angels who were expelled from Heaven for showing disobedience and ungratefulness to God. They were originally created to believe in God and serve him, but now they are enemies to both him and humanity. Was Iblis one of those fallen angels?

Honestly, some Islamic scholars believed it. This opinion is actually based on some Israiliyyat (Israelites’ traditions), which mentioned that the name of Iblis was “Azazil” and he used to live on the earth. He was one of the strongest of the angels in terms of knowledge and intelligence. Responding Israiliyyat, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani (d. 1449 CE) said that if those known to be true because the revelation to the Prophet Muhammad, we confirm them. And if those not known to be true or false, we may tell them without saying whether they are true or false. But if those known to be false, because the revelation to our Prophet, we must reject them.

Nonetheless we cannot accept this Israiliyyat particularly because in chapter of Al-Kahf verse number 50, Allah clearly stated, “He was a jinn so he departed from the command of his Lord” (kana min al-jinn fa-fasaqa ‘an amri Rabbihi). This is a crystal clear evidence supporting the opinion that Iblis was not an angel. It is just because the conjunction “fa” in the Arabic text is indicative of the reason. Fakhruddin Al-Razi (d. 1210 CE) explained, “The sentence ‘He was of the jinn’ indicates that Iblis’ disobedience to prostrate wasbecause he was a jinn.” On the contrary we saw that angles never disobey Allah’s commands. Allah describes them, “…who disobey not, from executing the Commands they receive from Allah, but do that which they are commanded.” [Quran 66:6].

Simultaneously, there are a number of differences between Iblis and angels. Our Prophet mentioned them as two different creatures when he said, “The angels were created from light, Iblis was created from smokeless fire, and Adam was created from that which has been described to you.” [Muslim]. Angels also do not have any descendants whereas Jinn have. Allah said: “Then will you take him and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you?” [Quran 18:50]

Furthermore, those Islamic scholars who held the opinion that Iblis was an angel also misinterpreted the sentence “‘So angels prostrated, except Iblis” which appear seven times in Quran, firstly in chapter of Al-Baqarah verse number 34. They said if Iblis was not an angel, then he must not be blamed when he did not prostrate because Allah only asked angels to prostrated when He said, “When we commanded to angels (wa idh qulnaa lil malaaikah)”. Ibn Kathir (d. 1373 CE) answered this understanding by saying, “When Almighty Allah commanded the angels to prostrate before Adam, Iblis was regarded to be inclusive in that command. Although he was not of their kind, he was like them and he was performing their deeds. Because of that, Iblis was also regarded as the addressee of that command directed to the angels. And he was condemned since he did not obey that command.”

Additionally, Ibn Hajar Al-Haytami (d. 1566 CE) said, “It is obviously clear that the signification of the sentence ‘He was of the jinn’ is stronger than the sentence ‘So all angels prostrated, except Iblis’, because separated exception comes a lot in Quran and hadiths.” Separated exception is one of two kinds of exception in Arabic grammar. It means “but” rather than “except” because the thing excluded and the things not excluded are two different kinds of beings. For example, “Those workers went but their children (did not go).” Allah said, “They have no knowledge of it but following of assumption (they only have).” [Quran 4: 157]. We all know that following the assumption is not a knowledge at all, yet we see here that Allah excludes it from knowledge. Similarly, Allah said, “So all angels prostrated, except Iblis” should be understood like this: “So all angels prostrated, but Iblis (did not prostrate).”

To sum up, we consider a small dispute between Islamic scholars whether Iblis was an angel or not, but the right opinion belongs to those scholars who says that he was not an angel, instead he was a jinn and the ancestor of jinn. Hasan Al-Basri (d. 642 CE) and other tabi’is said, “Iblis was not one of the angels, not even for a second. He was the origin of the Jinn just as Adam was the origin of mankind.”

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17 hours ago, Ain-Al Hayat said:

but he is excellent or good by doing his job ... which is spreading evilness 

Thanks for your response sister.

Yes my question was "what is good in him (Shaytan)?"

But why you are considering "spreading evilness" as good?  Any specific reason?

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11 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

circle in geometry in fine, circle on moon is fine, circle around earth is fine but no circles in mind?

Obviously those who have studied geometry, must have a thought of circles in their mind. And with those thoughts, they were able to produce a whole branch of mathematics.

But in logic, circular reasoning is that whick is lacking the explanation of premise. For instance:

" God is great" if one tries to explain it by saying "because He is God". The statement would end on where it begins and no reason whatsoever is given there to prove the first premise. 

 

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