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In the Name of God بسم الله

Capitalizing on Ignorance - Part 2

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Similar to the thread previous to this, I will start by stating the pattern that I’m seeing emerging is Islamic arguments are primarily based on “arguments from ignorance” combined with something that we have some understanding of. Here I use the concept of supplications to explain my point.

An easier way to explain what I’m saying is to take the idea of earthquakes. Before we understood why earthquakes occur, we would say it’s God’s punishment. Specially in the past if towns/cities were destroyed by earthquakes, the reason would be because God punished them for some wrong they were doing (and most people are doing something evil in every town, so it becomes even easier to blame them). If not punishment we assign the label of a “test”. Today we understand that earthquakes occur due to movement of plates, and occur regardless of people being good or bad. Similarly religion attempts to provide reasons and rationalizations for evil/suffering to help us feel better… normally ignoring the actual causes behind it.

Here is another example. Imagine 2 people, an atheist and born muslim. Both go to the same school and become really good friends. Both of them like similar subjects, they excel in their studies and both apply to the same medical schools to become doctors. The Muslim supplicates and prays to get admitted. His parents tell him to read ziarat Ashura and salatul layl, they tell him he should say a nazr that he will go for ziarat if his wishes are accepted by God, and so on. He does some of this and eventually he does get admitted to medical school. He feels that God accepted his prayers, and thus he continues with these ziarats and prayers, hoping for material as well as rewards in the hereafter.

The atheist friend also gets admitted into medical school. The reason why both get admitted to medical school is that they were both excellent students that worked hard and met the requirements of the school. There was no correlation to the ziarats and prayers… however since religion relies so heavily on arguments from ignorance, we start thinking our prayers have some type of powers. We ignore the actual causes and effects, and attribute them to supernatural causes because we “believe” and don’t actually “know”.

In the above example a number of combinations could have been derived. Suppose the muslim didn’t get admitted because he didn’t meet the requirements, or there wasn’t enough space in the school, or the admission director is racist, etc, whatever the cause… if he were to ask why God didn’t accept his prayers, just to make him feel better, he would be given other justifications such as it wasn’t the best for you, God knows better, everything happens for the best… when in reality the causes and effects are not supernatural. Just like an earthquake.

Let’s simplify it even further. Suppose I flip a coin and pray it lands on heads every time. Naturally roughly around 50% of time, my prayer will work and won’t work. With prayers we are normally already working towards the goal we are praying for, so chances increase that the goal may be achieved (and prayer is “answered”). However the atheist that never prays has the same chances to attain their goals, without the use of repetitive Arabic phrases, because the underlying cause and effect at work is not connected to the prayer. If it is connected, how would you prove it?

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  • 2 months later...

bump.

I'll add this question. suppose I pray to God to move the phone on my table using His powers? what justifiable reason does God have to not accept my prayer?

An all loving God that demands constant communication with Him, doesn't seem to want to interact back with us. It makes no sense that an All loving God, that wants a relationship with His creatures, only decides to communicate directly with a minority of His creation... some people say it's the sins that prevent us from having a relationship... strange isn't it that parents continue to have direct relationship with their disobedient children, yet the God that loves more than our mothers seems to seal our hearts over disobedience to Him.

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27 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I'll add this question. suppose I pray to God to move the phone on my table using His powers? what justifiable reason does God have to not accept my prayer?

Being annoyed at the sheer arrogance. 

 

Look man, some people have doubts, others have a bad attitude and look for holes where there aren't. Last time you caused a fiasco then at the end just came out and said what it was all really about: Sinning. "Oh I want to sin, let me convince myself Islam isn't the truth then" is not a new thing here as I recall one person taking issue with something as benign as thawab being counted. In another thread you, for God knows what reason, take issue with God putting his Caliphs on planet earth.

You keep holding God to ridiculous standards and ways that He should behave if he acted like a PROPER God, the audacity. Newsflash: You don't know better than God. If something is set up in a specific way by Him that you don't get, then it's more likely that you don't understand it instead of an OMNIPOTENT OMNICIENT GOD doing things wrong.

I wish someone would go through your posts and make a cartoon about how the dunya should be according to you, it would be outrageous.

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10 minutes ago, guest 2025 said:

Being annoyed at the sheer arrogance. 

 

Look man, some people have doubts, others have a bad attitude and look for holes where there aren't. Last time you caused a fiasco then at the end just came out and said what it was all really about: Sinning. "Oh I want to sin, let me convince myself Islam isn't the truth then" is not a new thing here as I recall one person taking issue with something as benign as thawab being counted. In another thread you, for God knows what reason, take issue with God putting his Caliphs on planet earth.

You keep holding God to ridiculous standards and ways that He should behave if he acted like a PROPER God, the audacity. Newsflash: You don't know better than God. If something is set up in a specific way by Him that you don't get, then it's more likely that you don't understand it instead of an OMNIPOTENT OMNICIENT GOD doing things wrong.

I wish someone would go through your posts and make a cartoon about how the dunya should be according to you, it would be outrageous.

lol... can u pls tell me where i have said it was all about sinning? 

so if someone doesn't understand God, it's because they're wrong. if someone does, they are right. the flaw in this way of thinking is that you should be able to point out the flaws in the argument, rather than judging who made the argument.

Edited by khamosh21
typo
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11 minutes ago, guest 2025 said:

Being annoyed at the sheer arrogance. 

 

Look man, some people have doubts, others have a bad attitude and look for holes where there aren't. Last time you caused a fiasco then at the end just came out and said what it was all really about: Sinning. "Oh I want to sin, let me convince myself Islam isn't the truth then" is not a new thing here as I recall one person taking issue with something as benign as thawab being counted. In another thread you, for God knows what reason, take issue with God putting his Caliphs on planet earth.

You keep holding God to ridiculous standards and ways that He should behave if he acted like a PROPER God, the audacity. Newsflash: You don't know better than God. If something is set up in a specific way by Him that you don't get, then it's more likely that you don't understand it instead of an OMNIPOTENT OMNICIENT GOD doing things wrong.

I wish someone would go through your posts and make a cartoon about how the dunya should be according to you, it would be outrageous.

if you are unable to directly address the arguments made in the OP (ur welcome to skip the 2nd post). please don't reply.

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1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

what justifiable reason does God have to not accept my prayer?

Your smugness and conceit.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

if you are unable to directly address the arguments made in the OP (ur welcome to skip the 2nd post). please don't reply.

There are no arguments, just a man who has no veil over his eyes that desperately wants one.

 

17 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

lol... can u pls tell me where i have said it was all about sinning? 

so if someone doesn't understand God, it's because they're wrong. if someone does, they are right. the flaw in this way of thinking is that you should be able to point out the flaws in the argument, rather than judging who made the argument.

Do you have amnesia? 

 

We have given you the answers to your questions on a silver platter, but you keep moving the goalpost. You think Allah is ignoring you? How many people has He sent to answer your questions? As per your habit, you've made some nonsense up and are trying to hold the other person to it, a nonsense that I won't give you the pleasure of addressing. Good day and I really hope you come to the truth eventually. You didn't let go after all this time, I'll give you that.

 

Edited by guest 2025
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10 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Your smugness and conceit.

are the millions of innocent people that have been killed, raped, tortured, good people who all sincerely prayed to be saved, were they also smug and conceit?  right they'll be rewarded in the hereafter... sign me up for a platinum islamic credit card.

why you don't try addressing the OP and try to point out the flaws in the argument

 

 

Edited by khamosh21
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5 minutes ago, guest 2025 said:

There are no arguments, just a man who has no veil over his eyes that desperately wants one.

 

Do you have amnesia? 

 

We have given you the answers to your questions on a silver platter, but you keep moving the goalpost. As per your habit, you've made some nonsense up and are trying to hold the other person to it, a nonsense that I won't give you the pleasure of addressing. Good day.

 

your reply reminds me of a recent clip i saw where 2 people were talking, some random lady walks up to them and interrupts their convo... when they start asking her questions she says you guys are harassing me... lol

good day to you as well bro

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

why you don't try addressing the OP and try to point out the flaws in the argument

1. Because it will entail educating you in the very rudiments of philosophy and formal logic. Your post shows that you are clearly ignorant of the discussions on theodicy and the principle of ultimate and intermediate causation, free will versus determinism, mind verses matter, all of which are not the preserve of Islam and have been debated to death by continental philosophers in the West ages ago too. And I don't feel it's worth making that effort.

2. Even if I were to take all that trouble, it would come to naught because you haven't come here seeking sincere answers. Your goal, as @guest 2025said, is to keep shifting the goalposts.

Do yourself a favour and read up on all of the above.

Or better still, savour your enlightenment, and let us persist in our superstition.

Edited by AbdusSibtayn
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9 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

1. Because it will entail educating you in the very rudiments of philosophy and formal logic. Your post shows that you are clearly ignorant of the discussions on theodicy and the principle of ultimate and intermediate causation, free will versus determinism, all of which are not the preserve of Islam and have been debated to death by continental philosophers in the West ages ago too. And I don't feel it's worth making that effort.

2. Even if I were to take all that trouble, it would come to naught because you haven't come here seeking sincere answers. Your goal, as @guest 2025said, is to keep shifting the goalposts.

Do yourself a favour and read up on all of the above.

Or better still, savour your enlightenment, and let us persist in our superstition.

I have been through number 1... and unfortunately they didn't really help resolve my issues, only further made things difficult. I was actually a believer before I started studying formal logic and philosophy... it's actually studying logic and philosophy that has got me here.

as for your "earn it" answer:

you didn't get my reply. imagine i am a well known honest person in society. I come to you with a closed briefcase and following ensues:

Me: do you trust me?

You: yes of course I do. you are well known to be a good person.

Me: inside this briefcase is a $1 billion dollars, a very wealthy King gave it to me.  To earn this money you have to work for me.

You: Can I see the money?

Me: but don't you trust me?

You: I do, but what harm is there in you letting me see this money?

Me: The king only showed it to me, if you want to see what's inside, earn it.

You see most believers (of any religion, not only Islam) believe in anything based on trust. They trust in their ancestors and history. Some venture into logic and philosophy and become satisfied with "logical arguments". Some become satiated with historical narratives.

Another example of trust. Just check out all of the supernatural stories revolving around the "urafa", people like Ayatullah Behjat and others similar to him. I used to love these stories and totally trusted that they were real. The Quran states if you are truthful, bring your proof. So, bring your proof if any person has any supernatural ability... sadly there is no way to prove these things, you just have to trust the stories.

I do not consider my state to be enlightenment, it's actually quite painful because I loved Islam and God. I used to love praying and crying, I used to spend nights and days communicating to God. I wish there was a way to go back. but when I look at those experiences now, I can't prove to myself if what I experienced was real or just based on my beliefs and trust.


 

 

Edited by khamosh21
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On 1/2/2021 at 4:08 PM, khamosh21 said:

In the above example a number of combinations could have been derived. Suppose the muslim didn’t get admitted because he didn’t meet the requirements, or there wasn’t enough space in the school, or the admission director is racist, etc, whatever the cause… if he were to ask why God didn’t accept his prayers, just to make him feel better, he would be given other justifications such as it wasn’t the best for you, God knows better, everything happens for the best… when in reality the causes and effects are not supernatural. Just like an earthquake.

Let’s simplify it even further. Suppose I flip a coin and pray it lands on heads every time. Naturally roughly around 50% of time, my prayer will work and won’t work. With prayers we are normally already working towards the goal we are praying for, so chances increase that the goal may be achieved (and prayer is “answered”). However the atheist that never prays has the same chances to attain their goals, without the use of repetitive Arabic phrases, because the underlying cause and effect at work is not connected to the prayer. If it is connected, how would you prove it?

 

It's easy for us humans to be unable to understand why the Muslim failed while the Atheist succeeded. Whatever the cause may be, it really happens for the best. How can I say that ? Because Allah is JUST and HE KNOWS THE FUTURE. Maybe Allah didn't let the Muslim succeed, because if he did, then the Muslim could have problems in the future that he wouldn't be able to endure, or any other scenario that can cause suffering would have happened that could have been avoided had the Muslim failed his exam. As for the Atheist, Allah made him succeed because maybe one day he'll end up becoming the only surgeon in town that can take care of that Muslim. There are infinitly many other examples that I can write right now, but the main idea is that, yes, just like you said, "it wasn’t the best for you, God knows better, everything happens for the best", as much as we humans don't like it. This life is full of tests, Allah has more than once tested his servants by "apparently" punishing the good ones and giving many rewards to the bad ones in this world in order to test us. Imagine if only good people get rewarded and bad people get punished in this world. Then everyone would become good. What would the point of the test be then. It's like the teacher is already giving you the answers of the exam, what kind of "exam" would that be ?

On 1/2/2021 at 4:08 PM, khamosh21 said:

Let’s simplify it even further. Suppose I flip a coin and pray it lands on heads every time. Naturally roughly around 50% of time, my prayer will work and won’t work. With prayers we are normally already working towards the goal we are praying for, so chances increase that the goal may be achieved (and prayer is “answered”). However the atheist that never prays has the same chances to attain their goals, without the use of repetitive Arabic phrases, because the underlying cause and effect at work is not connected to the prayer. If it is connected, how would you prove it?

If Allah wills it, then yes, it will land on heads every time. Your prayer doesn't work because of your character. You want it to land on heads 100% instead of 50% of the time for what ? What point are you trying to make ? Is this the proof of Allah you want ?

1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

I'll add this question. suppose I pray to God to move the phone on my table using His powers? what justifiable reason does God have to not accept my prayer?

I'm sorry, but this right here is just absurd. Unless you are one of the most beloved creations and have the best relationship with Allah (which I guarantee you from now on, no-one from among us will), it is obvious that Allah won't do that. The better question should be: "what justifiable reason does God have to accept my prayer ?" Allah created you, he can do whatever he wants concerning you, and if he doesn't want to accept your prayers, it's entirely in his right to do so. Imagine a child has good grades, he's a good little boy and he never misbehaves, and the parents have enough money to go to Disneyland. Should the parents go whith their child there if he ever asks them to ? Of course not ! It's entirely up to the parents decision to spend their money however they see fit. Do you want him to move your phone so that you know he exists ? Because if that is the proof you need to believe in God, I'm telling you there are a million more miracles around you that are more than enough to make you believe in him.

1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

An all loving God that demands constant communication with Him, doesn't seem to want to interact back with us. It makes no sense that an All loving God, that wants a relationship with His creatures, only decides to communicate directly with a minority of His creation... some people say it's the sins that prevent us from having a relationship... strange isn't it that parents continue to have direct relationship with their disobedient children, yet the God that loves more than our mothers seems to seal our hearts over disobedience to Him.

Allah gave you life, he gave you hands, feet, eyes, a heart, a brain, all the organs you need, he gave you a family, and a house. Every morning it is thanks to him that you wake up. And that's not enough of a relationship ? Can't you see nature, and the animals, and good people ? These are all means that Allah uses to communicate with you and show his presence. Direct communication or revelation is only reserved to the few people that Allah knows they'll keep his promise and never disobey, for they are worthy of it, unlike us. Trust me the prayers and supplications do work, and the outcomes are 3: either Allah accepts them straight away, or either he won't accept them now but he'll give you something much better later, or either he won't accept them in this Life but he'll do it in the Afterlife.

18 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

are the millions of innocent people that have been killed, raped, tortured, good people who all sincerely prayed to be saved, where they also smug conceit?  right they'll be rewarded in the hereafter... sign me up for a platinum islamic credit card.

Again, this right here is simply ridiculous. Suffering is bound to exist in this world, otherwise we would already be living in Jannah. Imagine if I gave you a diploma. Who would be happier and more satisfied, the person that studied and suffered for years, or the person that did absolutely nothing to deserve it ? Sure, the one that didn't do anything may be happy, but he'll feel a little bit empiter on the inside. As for the one that studied, he has been expecting to receive the diploma for years, and he'll be far happier (he obviously is more deserving than the other person). It's the exact same thing with this life and the Hereafter, so I don't understand why you are su (excuse my language) butthurt about Allah not being an "all-loving God".

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2 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

add this question. suppose I pray to God to move the phone on my table using His powers? what justifiable reason does God have to not accept my prayer?

Though you are praying to move the phone but deep in your heart you believe that this will not happen, that is why phone will not move.

 

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14 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

It's easy for us humans to be unable to understand why the Muslim failed while the Atheist succeeded. Whatever the cause may be, it really happens for the best. How can I say that ? Because Allah is JUST and HE KNOWS THE FUTURE. Maybe Allah didn't let the Muslim succeed, because if he did, then the Muslim could have problems in the future that he wouldn't be able to endure, or any other scenario that can cause suffering would have happened that could have been avoided had the Muslim failed his exam. As for the Atheist, Allah made him succeed because maybe one day he'll end up becoming the only surgeon in town that can take care of that Muslim. There are infinitly many other examples that I can write right now, but the main idea is that, yes, just like you said, "it wasn’t the best for you, God knows better, everything happens for the best", as much as we humans don't like it. This life is full of tests, Allah has more than once tested his servants by "apparently" punishing the good ones and giving many rewards to the bad ones in this world in order to test us. Imagine if only good people get rewarded and bad people get punished in this world. Then everyone would become good. What would the point of the test be then. It's like the teacher is already giving you the answers of the exam, what kind of "exam" would that be ?

You are providing an explanation that suits your target. You shoot the arrow and then wherever it falls you draw a target around it, so you always hit the target. Even if the above explanation is valid, it doesn't offer any proof that God is helping anyone succeed or not succeed.

overall the explanation can be summed up by saying "God works in mysterious ways", in other words we can't understand the situation, accept things as they are etc.

as for your very last question, interestingly before entering an exam, the teacher does teach all the answers. but if you haven't been taught properly and still have to take the exam... that seems a bit unfair. rn.

19 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

What point are you trying to make ? Is this the proof of Allah you want ?

the proof that I want is direct interaction, not indirect signs and intellectual argument and philosophy.

 

20 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

I'm sorry, but this right here is just absurd. Unless you are one of the most beloved creations and have the best relationship with Allah (which I guarantee you from now on, no-one from among us will), it is obvious that Allah won't do that. The better question should be: "what justifiable reason does God have to accept my prayer ?" Allah created you, he can do whatever he wants concerning you, and if he doesn't want to accept your prayers, it's entirely in his right to do so. Imagine a child has good grades, he's a good little boy and he never misbehaves, and the parents have enough money to go to Disneyland. Should the parents go whith their child there if he ever asks them to ? Of course not ! It's entirely up to the parents decision to spend their money however they see fit. Do you want him to move your phone so that you know he exists ? Because if that is the proof you need to believe in God, I'm telling you there are a million more miracles around you that are more than enough to make you believe in him.

i agree with your analogy within the framework of analogy. my only point was that child has a direct relationship with his parents, whereas a normal human being's relationship is indirect through signs and symbols and trust on others.

 

22 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Allah gave you life, he gave you hands, feet, eyes, a heart, a brain, all the organs you need, he gave you a family, and a house. Every morning it is thanks to him that you wake up. And that's not enough of a relationship ? Can't you see nature, and the animals, and good people ? These are all means that Allah uses to communicate with you and show his presence. Direct communication or revelation is only reserved to the few people that Allah knows they'll keep his promise and never disobey, for they are worthy of it, unlike us. Trust me the prayers and supplications do work, and the outcomes are 3: either Allah accepts them straight away, or either he won't accept them now but he'll give you something much better later, or either he won't accept them in this Life but he'll do it in the Afterlife.

I am thankful to God for all the bounties I have... even if I doubt His existence, I still pray and thank Him... I do pray for guidance everyday. To me it doesn't make sense why Allah only communicates with select few... sorry I just don't understand it. why this model or framework makes sense is difficult for me to understand.

 

24 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Again, this right here is simply ridiculous. Suffering is bound to exist in this world, otherwise we would already be living in Jannah. Imagine if I gave you a diploma. Who would be happier and more satisfied, the person that studied and suffered for years, or the person that did absolutely nothing to deserve it ? Sure, the one that didn't do anything may be happy, but he'll feel a little bit empiter on the inside. As for the one that studied, he has been expecting to receive the diploma for years, and he'll be far happier (he obviously is more deserving than the other person). It's the exact same thing with this life and the Hereafter, so I don't understand why you are su (excuse my language) butthurt about Allah not being an "all-loving God".

Please refer to my briefcase analogy in above where I responded to AbdusSibtayn

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Perhaps its your perspective of supplication that should be re-evaluated. 

Indeed, many Muslims seem to view supplication as some sort of menu card where you place an order and receive what you desire.

If one studies the supplications in the Qur'an , generally they are based on guidance, forgiveness, righteousness. 

In other words, supplication is a means of closeness to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and ultimately this is the goal.

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4 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Perhaps its your perspective of supplication that should be re-evaluated. 

Indeed, many Muslims seem to view supplication as some sort of menu card where you place an order and receive what you desire.

If one studies the supplications in the Qur'an , generally they are based on guidance, forgiveness, righteousness. 

In other words, supplication is a means of closeness to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and ultimately this is the goal.

this is really good reply and I whole heartedly agree with this... the way i see it everything else that we pray for like job, family, health etc, is entirely based on natural cause and effects... i just have no way of telling if God ever interferes and makes things go one way or the other

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3 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

What would the point of the test be then. It's like the teacher is already giving you the answers of the exam, what kind of "exam" would that be ?

by the way the inherent flaw in this argument is that those that have been given the "answers" (direct knowledge, prophets/imams), their test is the hardest and most difficult... but they are also perfect so they can't make a a real mistake - what kind of exam is this?

the real question is why is there an exam of anyone at all... why is God's love and knowledge contingent upon this cruel exam?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

by the way the inherent flaw in this argument is that those that have been given the "answers" (direct knowledge, prophets/imams), their test is the hardest and most difficult... but they are also perfect so they can't make a a real mistake - what kind of exam is this?

You are right in saying that their test is the hardest and most difficult, but you are wrong in the next half of the sentence. The prophets and imams were "perfect" because they had the ability to sin but chose not to, not because they couldn't make mistakes. People really need to take off this idea from their mind that the prophets and imams couldn't sin, they're not robots people ! Do you know how insanely hard it is for us common humans not to sin for a moment, let alone for a lifetime ? The prophets and imams not only never commited sins (since they chose not to), but they wouldn't even think of commiting sins. That's how much taqwa they had.

So they could have commited mistakes, but since they studied so hard and were the best of the best of the best students ever, it seems to me like it was a good and just exam.

3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

the real question is why is there an exam of anyone at all... why is God's love and knowledge contingent upon this cruel exam?

The exam is there so we can slowly build and try to perfect our lives. As I said, it seems to me that you just want the reward without having suffered the trials. Everyone has to study in order to pass the exam, there really is no secret behind it. Or do you just want the exam already answered for you with a nice 100/100 ? That's not how exams work, they exist in order to test you and see if you have understood the class. You can only do well in the exam if you studied, and you'll excel if you studied even harder. No parent is gonna give to their son whatever he wishes without having studied or worked, otherwise he'll grow up being spoiled. Same thing with a multi-millionaire, he's not just gonna give a random homeless man a nice mansion and a nice car, otherwise he's gonna become spoiled, arrogant and ungrateful, always wanting more. Why would then Allah just grant us Paradise without letting us live the trials of this world ? We wouldn't deserve it. If that would have been the case, then we wouldn't be serving Allah, he would be serving us ! Can you imagine, the teacher just giving every student an A+ ? He would be immediatly fired, and the students wouldn't have learned anything, ruining their progress in school, as well as them now becoming spoiled, wanting to receive from now on A+ without having studied.

Why do you keep insisting that the exam is cruel ? Millions of men, women and children are starving, don't have a home, or their rights have been snatched away. I do recognize that this is extremely sad and unfortunate. But as I said earlier, Allah is just, and his justice can and will be manifested in various ways. One of them is the Day of Judgement. These people will be the happiest and most relaxed in that day. Allah would never ever EVER let a person that suffered and was oppressed and died miserable in this world have a worse fate in the Hereafter. Paradise are for these people. In fact, many traditions narrate that the majority of the people that will dwell in Paradise were poor in this world. And you know what's the beauty of it ? Paradise is forever. Can you compare that to this life ? A man can suffer their entire lifetime (80-120 years) but they would end up in Jannah. Which is better, a finite, small and insignificant number, or eternity ? Obviously eternity ! Who in their right mind wouldn't be happy about this ? When these people that have suffered so much enter Jannah, they will say: "I have never suffered in my life". Meanwhile, the bad people that enter the Hellfire will say: "I have never enjoyed a moment from life".

Basically what I'm trying to tell you is that you can believe in 2 things: either that this world is cruel and it will stay that way forever, and that the exam is useless and unfair (in which case I don't see the point of living, or at least of doing good deeds), or either that as much as this world may appear difficult and full of suffering, it's a test from a just God that will eventually judge us according to how he lived, establishing eventually justice for everyone, and eliminating this concept of "cruelty".

Edited by Mohamad Abdel-Hamid
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9 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I have been through number 1... and unfortunately they didn't really help resolve my issues, only further made things difficult. I was actually a believer before I started studying formal logic and philosophy... it's actually studying logic and philosophy that has got me here.

as for your "earn it" answer:

you didn't get my reply. imagine i am a well known honest person in society. I come to you with a closed briefcase and following ensues:

Me: do you trust me?

You: yes of course I do. you are well known to be a good person.

Me: inside this briefcase is a $1 billion dollars, a very wealthy King gave it to me.  To earn this money you have to work for me.

You: Can I see the money?

Me: but don't you trust me?

You: I do, but what harm is there in you letting me see this money?

Me: The king only showed it to me, if you want to see what's inside, earn it.

You see most believers (of any religion, not only Islam) believe in anything based on trust. They trust in their ancestors and history. Some venture into logic and philosophy and become satisfied with "logical arguments". Some become satiated with historical narratives.

Another example of trust. Just check out all of the supernatural stories revolving around the "urafa", people like Ayatullah Behjat and others similar to him. I used to love these stories and totally trusted that they were real. The Quran states if you are truthful, bring your proof. So, bring your proof if any person has any supernatural ability... sadly there is no way to prove these things, you just have to trust the stories.

I do not consider my state to be enlightenment, it's actually quite painful because I loved Islam and God. I used to love praying and crying, I used to spend nights and days communicating to God. I wish there was a way to go back. but when I look at those experiences now, I can't prove to myself if what I experienced was real or just based on my beliefs and trust.


 

 

Logging in from a guest account .

'Trust' is not something limited to religion. Many 'mundane' things that we do are also acts of faith. You visit a doctor when you are sick; you act according to his prescription because you trust him. You undergo a surgery; you entrust yourself to the surgeon's care because you trust him. In both these cases, unless you are a doctor yourself and know the intricacies of medicine and anatomy, your trust in the doctors is tantamount to what the skeptics would call 'blind faith': you just act according to whatever they prescribe even without knowing why they are saying what they are saying. You board a flight because you trust the pilot to take you to your destination, even though the possibility remains that he may lose his way. I have not visited certain countries, but I believe that they exist because I trust the sources of information that tell me they do. Without trust, the world cannot function. We trust even when we don't understand what the individuals we trust are doing. Why is trust a bad thing? Where lies the harm if a believer trusts in God without seeing Him or the working of the celestial/metaphysical realm?

Is the issue of trust your problem with Islam?

Also, seeking forgiveness for my harsh reply. My ego got the better of me, and there is no justification for being rude in a debate.

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11 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

this is really good reply and I whole heartedly agree with this... the way i see it everything else that we pray for like job, family, health etc, is entirely based on natural cause and effects... i just have no way of telling if God ever interferes and makes things go one way or the other

I think we certainly can pray for these things as well, and certainly Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can and does grant to us all that is good in our lives. 

However the point is that these things in themselves won't necessarily take us closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

I might spend hours supplicating for a certain academic or professional outcome, and yet Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is aware that perhaps this successful outcome would become a distraction for me and take me further away from Him rather than closer. In this case, a favorable reply might not be in my best interests.

When it comes to forgiveness, guidance and righteousness then these qualities undoubtedly keep us closer to Him. Therefore it makes most sense for us to emphasize and prioritize these aspects in our supplication.

Health and wealth might fluctuate yet the one who wishes to gain closeness to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can do so with or without either of these. 

However, without forgiveness, guidance and righteousness none of these other aspects will be of any use to us.

In simple terms sometimes we think something is good for us and supplicate for it, yet Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows better (and indeed best) and through His infinite wisdom decides not to grant some requests. 

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16 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

You are right in saying that their test is the hardest and most difficult, but you are wrong in the next half of the sentence. The prophets and imams were "perfect" because they had the ability to sin but chose not to, not because they couldn't make mistakes. People really need to take off this idea from their mind that the prophets and imams couldn't sin, they're not robots people ! Do you know how insanely hard it is for us common humans not to sin for a moment, let alone for a lifetime ? The prophets and imams not only never commited sins (since they chose not to), but they wouldn't even think of commiting sins. That's how much taqwa they had.

So they could have commited mistakes, but since they studied so hard and were the best of the best of the best students ever, it seems to me like it was a good and just exam.

The exam is there so we can slowly build and try to perfect our lives. As I said, it seems to me that you just want the reward without having suffered the trials. Everyone has to study in order to pass the exam, there really is no secret behind it. Or do you just want the exam already answered for you with a nice 100/100 ? That's not how exams work, they exist in order to test you and see if you have understood the class. You can only do well in the exam if you studied, and you'll excel if you studied even harder. No parent is gonna give to their son whatever he wishes without having studied or worked, otherwise he'll grow up being spoiled. Same thing with a multi-millionaire, he's not just gonna give a random homeless man a nice mansion and a nice car, otherwise he's gonna become spoiled, arrogant and ungrateful, always wanting more. Why would then Allah just grant us Paradise without letting us live the trials of this world ? We wouldn't deserve it. If that would have been the case, then we wouldn't be serving Allah, he would be serving us ! Can you imagine, the teacher just giving every student an A+ ? He would be immediatly fired, and the students wouldn't have learned anything, ruining their progress in school, as well as them now becoming spoiled, wanting to receive from now on A+ without having studied.

Why do you keep insisting that the exam is cruel ? Millions of men, women and children are starving, don't have a home, or their rights have been snatched away. I do recognize that this is extremely sad and unfortunate. But as I said earlier, Allah is just, and his justice can and will be manifested in various ways. One of them is the Day of Judgement. These people will be the happiest and most relaxed in that day. Allah would never ever EVER let a person that suffered and was oppressed and died miserable in this world have a worse fate in the Hereafter. Paradise are for these people. In fact, many traditions narrate that the majority of the people that will dwell in Paradise were poor in this world. And you know what's the beauty of it ? Paradise is forever. Can you compare that to this life ? A man can suffer their entire lifetime (80-120 years) but they would end up in Jannah. Which is better, a finite, small and insignificant number, or eternity ? Obviously eternity ! Who in their right mind wouldn't be happy about this ? When these people that have suffered so much enter Jannah, they will say: "I have never suffered in my life". Meanwhile, the bad people that enter the Hellfire will say: "I have never enjoyed a moment from life".

Basically what I'm trying to tell you is that you can believe in 2 things: either that this world is cruel and it will stay that way forever, and that the exam is useless and unfair (in which case I don't see the point of living, or at least of doing good deeds), or either that as much as this world may appear difficult and full of suffering, it's a test from a just God that will eventually judge us according to how he lived, establishing eventually justice for everyone, and eliminating this concept of "cruelty".


Brother please try to understand the contradiction in your argument. Here is a summary of 2 points you've made, please correct me if I'm wrong:

1.A. If a normal person receives direct divine communication/knowledge, you state their test/exam will no longer be fair or valid (similar to a teacher giving out answers during an exam is the analogy you used, getting 100/100, etc.

2.A. If the Prophet and Imam receives direct divine communication/knowledge, not only is their test/exam is still fair and valid, it is in fact even more difficult.

first, how do you reconcile this contradiction? [edit: just to spell it out, the contradiction I see is that for me direct knowledge makes my exam invalid  but direct knowledge for the Prophet the exam remains valid.]

I want to expand on both points above and try to explain the difficulty I have in understanding, and God willing may be you can help me understand:

1.B what difference does direct certainty (certainty can be of varying degrees) vs. having to trust the Prophet make from the perspective of a test?  Let's take you or any believer as an example. If you are convinced that the Prophet and Imams were truly from God AND the historical records are fairly accurate, then based on your analogy, you already have the answers in the exam...

1.C. Let me help you reconcile the contradiction...the general rule we can derive is that use of your free will is mutually exclusive from the knowledge that you have. What do I mean. For example my certain knowledge that smoking is bad for my health is mutually exclusive from my decision to smoke... that if I'm faced with the test of smoking, my certain knowledge can still result in me failing the test. I can still get 0 out of a 100.

1.D. If the above rule is correct, than the next rule I can derive is that more knowledge will lead to improvement in the actual test. Less knowledge will lead to more chances of failure. This is just stating the obvious.

3. Now let's take this a step further. Let's assume you have to explain to your child a difficult concept related to science. What is more effective, that you take give him a long lecture or if possible, show him/her a visual or experiment? Theory may be effective, but a practical demonstration will be far more useful and effective. IE, the more direct and certain your demonstration is, the far better your results will be in teaching that lesson.

The reason I'm "butt hurt" lol is because I feel the way the truth and knowledge has been conveyed to us, through Prophets and distorted history, is inherently more difficult than receiving some degree of certainty... I'm not saying that we should all be at the level of Prophets and Imams, I'm not asking for any rewards without the effort, I'm only asking to know for certain if there is a God, heaven, hell, angels etc... I'm happy to do the hard work for it (I'm a hard worker in my personal life and quite successful).... so there can clearly be be degrees of direct divine communication/knowledge.

So in summary I'm asking why each human being didn't get at least some bare minimum certainty in God and then give the test? (you might answer withe "fitra" argument, but since fitra can be covered at a young age due to society, it still does not provide certainty). It would reduce the unnecessary suffering and pain we see in the world. And if the ultimate goal and purpose of creation is to know God, it makes even less sense to use such an an inherently impaired system of Prophets and extreme tests to achieve that purpose (this is my humble argument and problem... I am only after attaining the truth and certainty).

Edited by khamosh21
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16 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

The exam is there so we can slowly build and try to perfect our lives. As I said, it seems to me that you just want the reward without having suffered the trials. Everyone has to study in order to pass the exam, there really is no secret behind it. Or do you just want the exam already answered for you with a nice 100/100 ?

I do not see the purpose of life as rewards and heaven and many believers seem to be after. I see the purpose of life as knowing the Truth, and that if God exists, to establish a relationship and knowing Him. I find the "tests" and "exams" as a hindrance, although one could argue they bring us closer to God. I see this as a contradiction, that God wants us to love and know Him, but the exam He has given us ends up in taking many of us away from Him.

One analogy I can use to help explain this. Imagine a loving husband and wife, they both trust and love each other, everything in their life is perfect. One day the wife decides she wants to "test" her husband's love, despite there relationship being perfect. So she hires a woman to come a tempt her husband. The husband never had any intentions of cheating on his wife, yet when tempted, he unfortunately fails the test. The husband and wife get a divorce.

The wife in this analogy is God, and the husband us human beings. We could have had a perfect relationship with God, but for some reason He feels he needs to test us. And then when we fail his test, He threatens us with hell and punishment.

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23 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Brother please try to understand the contradiction in your argument. Here is a summary of 2 points you've made, please correct me if I'm wrong:

1.A. If a normal person receives direct divine communication/knowledge, you state their test/exam will no longer be fair or valid (similar to a teacher giving out answers during an exam is the analogy you used, getting 100/100, etc.

2.A. If the Prophet and Imam receives direct divine communication/knowledge, not only is their test/exam is still fair and valid, it is in fact even more difficult.

first, how do you reconcile this contradiction? [edit: just to spell it out, the contradiction I see is that for me direct knowledge makes my exam invalid  but direct knowledge for the Prophet the exam remains valid.]

I do see your point, so let me reformulate the analogy:

Us regular students study for the test. During the test, we try to answer the questions with the best of our knowledge. The teacher sees that we're struggling, we know that we probably can't answer every question, but he's not going to just give us the answers, otherwise the objective of the exam would be void. And that's fair, because the teacher taught us everything in class, and he told us to read the books, so anything we struggle with during the exam is our fault, either because we didn't study enough, or we were careless, etc... At the end, we're gonna have (for example) 70/100, and that perfectly reflects our capability and shows how well we prepared for the exam. If the teacher was to tell us the answers, we were gonna end up having a 100/100 and doesn't represent our capability, and that would be unfair because in that case anyone could end up having a 100, wether they deserved it or not (it's like saying a saint goes to Heaven, but a mass-murederer would also go to heaven).

But there are some very special students who are so dedicated in their studies, they study day and night, that they practically can answer correctly every question that will be in the exam. Now the teacher knows his students very well, and he knows that these special students are going to have a 100 in the test, because of how much they studied. So even if the teacher was to tell these students the answer during the test, it wouldn't change anything since these students already know with 100% certainty what the answer is going to be. Do you understand what I'm trying to say ? The teacher didn't tell the normal students the answer, because that would place these students in a situation they don't deserve to be in. But he told the special students the answers, because regardless if he told them or not, they would still have a 100 in the test. So the exam would still be fair because the exam will end up having results that perfectly reflect the capabilities of each student.

And yes, it is in fact harder for the special students. They will know the answers, but that's because they studied and prepared way way more than the other students, which is insanely harder to do than just study for 1 hour a day and then play all day long.

On 3/28/2021 at 2:01 PM, khamosh21 said:

1.B what difference does direct certainty (certainty can be of varying degrees) vs. having to trust the Prophet make from the perspective of a test?  Let's take you or any believer as an example. If you are convinced that the Prophet and Imams were truly from God AND the historical records are fairly accurate, then based on your analogy, you already have the answers in the exam...

For me, trusting the Prophet is a form of direct certainty. As you are saying, I am convinced that the Prophet and Imams were truly from God AND the historical records are fairly accurate, so I already have the answers in the exam. It's fair for me, I don't understand what's wrong here ? I don't need direct revelation from a God to be certain that he exists, when that same God tells me to trust his book and his Prophet.

On 3/28/2021 at 2:01 PM, khamosh21 said:

1.C. Let me help you reconcile the contradiction...the general rule we can derive is that use of your free will is mutually exclusive from the knowledge that you have. What do I mean. For example my certain knowledge that smoking is bad for my health is mutually exclusive from my decision to smoke... that if I'm faced with the test of smoking, my certain knowledge can still result in me failing the test. I can still get 0 out of a 100.

1.D. If the above rule is correct, than the next rule I can derive is that more knowledge will lead to improvement in the actual test. Less knowledge will lead to more chances of failure. This is just stating the obvious.

If you know that smoking is bad, and then you end up smoking, then there's no one to blame but yourself. If you know that doing something is bad, but you still do it, then the problem is with you. Knowledge is supposed to tell you how to conduct yourself, and to differenciate between right and wrong. 

On 3/28/2021 at 2:01 PM, khamosh21 said:

3. Now let's take this a step further. Let's assume you have to explain to your child a difficult concept related to science. What is more effective, that you take give him a long lecture or if possible, show him/her a visual or experiment? Theory may be effective, but a practical demonstration will be far more useful and effective. IE, the more direct and certain your demonstration is, the far better your results will be in teaching that lesson.

This is a greatly exagerated example. It's obvious you're gonna give the child the practical demonstration because he would be incapable to understand the theoretical argument. But you can't have a direct demonstration for everything in life. When someone wants to "see" God, they would be incapable to do so because God simply can't be seen, you are literally asking for something that is impossible, since God isn't physical. The visual experiment doesn't apply here.

On 3/28/2021 at 2:01 PM, khamosh21 said:

The reason I'm "butt hurt" lol is because I feel the way the truth and knowledge has been conveyed to us, through Prophets and distorted history, is inherently more difficult than receiving some degree of certainty... I'm not saying that we should all be at the level of Prophets and Imams, I'm not asking for any rewards without the effort, I'm only asking to know for certain if there is a God, heaven, hell, angels etc... I'm happy to do the hard work for it (I'm a hard worker in my personal life and quite successful).... so there can clearly be be degrees of direct divine communication/knowledge.

So in summary I'm asking why each human being didn't get at least some bare minimum certainty in God and then give the test? (you might answer withe "fitra" argument, but since fitra can be covered at a young age due to society, it still does not provide certainty). It would reduce the unnecessary suffering and pain we see in the world. And if the ultimate goal and purpose of creation is to know God, it makes even less sense to use such an an inherently impaired system of Prophets and extreme tests to achieve that purpose (this is my humble argument and problem... I am only after attaining the truth and certainty).

You're right, maybe I went too far by calling you "butt hurt", so I'm sorry. Certainty can have various degrees, it is not necessary for you to receive direct revelation in order to be certain. Allah left for us Qur'an and Ahlulbayt, and there are so many other ways to be certain. Allah gave us a mind to think, he doesn't want us to simply follow something blindly, or to say "No, I'll only believe if...". God is not your partner, he is your creator. You can't just expect for everyone to want to talk directly to him. Peasants aren't allowed to talk directly to the king, and that's not something unfair, it's just the way it is. You must climb and be an extraordinary person, or have done something incredible for the king to recognize you and talk to you. And we can achieve that because God gave us knowledge, so do the hard work, since you're happy to do it.

On 3/28/2021 at 2:11 PM, khamosh21 said:

One analogy I can use to help explain this. Imagine a loving husband and wife, they both trust and love each other, everything in their life is perfect. One day the wife decides she wants to "test" her husband's love, despite there relationship being perfect. So she hires a woman to come a tempt her husband. The husband never had any intentions of cheating on his wife, yet when tempted, he unfortunately fails the test. The husband and wife get a divorce.

The wife in this analogy is God, and the husband us human beings. We could have had a perfect relationship with God, but for some reason He feels he needs to test us. And then when we fail his test, He threatens us with hell and punishment.

Here the husband and wife are of equal rank. This doesn't apply to God, he is far superior. God really wants us to have a good relationship with him. But because of our nature, we sometimes only love God because we are in a good situation. And as soon as our state worsens, we stop loving God. This is called hypocrisy. And I repeat it again, the test Allah is giving us is for our own good, it's to perfect ourselves, build our character and grow. If the teacher gives a surprise exam, and many students fail, then it's the students fault, not the teachers, because the students didn't pay attention to class, or because they didn't read the books, etc... A general wants to test the loyalty of his soldiers, so he hires a spy. He later finds out that many of his men had intended to desert, or commit treason, etc... This way, the general knows how to manage a better and more effective army. If the President wants to conduct a national investigation to know wether the ministers are apparently good or corrupt, and he later finds out that many of them are stealing millions of $, then can you really blame the President for conducting this investigation ?

Well this really has been a long discussion, and it's getting really boring. Not to insult you or whatever, but I honestly simply just don't want to continue anymore. You made some really good points, and you've got me pondering, so thank you. You can reply if you want, but I really don't want to continue. It was nice having a discussion with you.

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3 minutes ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

Well this really has been a long discussion, and it's getting really boring. Not to insult you or whatever, but I honestly simply just don't want to continue anymore. You made some really good points, and you've got me pondering, so thank you. You can reply if you want, but I really don't want to continue. It was nice having a discussion with you.

sure brother, thanks for taking time to reply... will see if i ever get around to replying, but i'd much rather talk in real terms rather than continuing to point out the flaws in these analogies or having to revise them, and that's not the point of the discussion.

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21 hours ago, Mohamad Abdel-Hamid said:

I do see your point, so let me reformulate the analogy:

Us regular students study for the test. During the test, we try to answer the questions with the best of our knowledge. The teacher sees that we're struggling, we know that we probably can't answer every question, but he's not going to just give us the answers, otherwise the objective of the exam would be void. And that's fair, because the teacher taught us everything in class, and he told us to read the books, so anything we struggle with during the exam is our fault, either because we didn't study enough, or we were careless, etc... At the end, we're gonna have (for example) 70/100, and that perfectly reflects our capability and shows how well we prepared for the exam. If the teacher was to tell us the answers, we were gonna end up having a 100/100 and doesn't represent our capability, and that would be unfair because in that case anyone could end up having a 100, wether they deserved it or not (it's like saying a saint goes to Heaven, but a mass-murederer would also go to heaven).

But there are some very special students who are so dedicated in their studies, they study day and night, that they practically can answer correctly every question that will be in the exam. Now the teacher knows his students very well, and he knows that these special students are going to have a 100 in the test, because of how much they studied. So even if the teacher was to tell these students the answer during the test, it wouldn't change anything since these students already know with 100% certainty what the answer is going to be. Do you understand what I'm trying to say ? The teacher didn't tell the normal students the answer, because that would place these students in a situation they don't deserve to be in. But he told the special students the answers, because regardless if he told them or not, they would still have a 100 in the test. So the exam would still be fair because the exam will end up having results that perfectly reflect the capabilities of each student.

And yes, it is in fact harder for the special students. They will know the answers, but that's because they studied and prepared way way more than the other students, which is insanely harder to do than just study for 1 hour a day and then play all day long.

For me, trusting the Prophet is a form of direct certainty. As you are saying, I am convinced that the Prophet and Imams were truly from God AND the historical records are fairly accurate, so I already have the answers in the exam. It's fair for me, I don't understand what's wrong here ? I don't need direct revelation from a God to be certain that he exists, when that same God tells me to trust his book and his Prophet.

If you know that smoking is bad, and then you end up smoking, then there's no one to blame but yourself. If you know that doing something is bad, but you still do it, then the problem is with you. Knowledge is supposed to tell you how to conduct yourself, and to differenciate between right and wrong. 

This is a greatly exagerated example. It's obvious you're gonna give the child the practical demonstration because he would be incapable to understand the theoretical argument. But you can't have a direct demonstration for everything in life. When someone wants to "see" God, they would be incapable to do so because God simply can't be seen, you are literally asking for something that is impossible, since God isn't physical. The visual experiment doesn't apply here.

You're right, maybe I went too far by calling you "butt hurt", so I'm sorry. Certainty can have various degrees, it is not necessary for you to receive direct revelation in order to be certain. Allah left for us Qur'an and Ahlulbayt, and there are so many other ways to be certain. Allah gave us a mind to think, he doesn't want us to simply follow something blindly, or to say "No, I'll only believe if...". God is not your partner, he is your creator. You can't just expect for everyone to want to talk directly to him. Peasants aren't allowed to talk directly to the king, and that's not something unfair, it's just the way it is. You must climb and be an extraordinary person, or have done something incredible for the king to recognize you and talk to you. And we can achieve that because God gave us knowledge, so do the hard work, since you're happy to do it.

Here the husband and wife are of equal rank. This doesn't apply to God, he is far superior. God really wants us to have a good relationship with him. But because of our nature, we sometimes only love God because we are in a good situation. And as soon as our state worsens, we stop loving God. This is called hypocrisy. And I repeat it again, the test Allah is giving us is for our own good, it's to perfect ourselves, build our character and grow. If the teacher gives a surprise exam, and many students fail, then it's the students fault, not the teachers, because the students didn't pay attention to class, or because they didn't read the books, etc... A general wants to test the loyalty of his soldiers, so he hires a spy. He later finds out that many of his men had intended to desert, or commit treason, etc... This way, the general knows how to manage a better and more effective army. If the President wants to conduct a national investigation to know wether the ministers are apparently good or corrupt, and he later finds out that many of them are stealing millions of $, then can you really blame the President for conducting this investigation ?

Well this really has been a long discussion, and it's getting really boring. Not to insult you or whatever, but I honestly simply just don't want to continue anymore. You made some really good points, and you've got me pondering, so thank you. You can reply if you want, but I really don't want to continue. It was nice having a discussion with you.

I don't expect you to respond, this reply is really for any other readers out there.

Overall the analogy is terribly flawed when you try to apply it in real terms. One flaw thankfully you accepted and then attempted to reformulate it. I'm not going to respond to every point you've made (unless you request for it), but attempt to summarize in totality why the analogy is wrong.

First I want to summarize the situation in real terms.

God tests us to see who of us in best in deeds as per Sura Mulk, those that are the best, they will be rewarded, those that disobey him and perform bad deeds, and don't seek forgiveness, will be punished, with the potential to go to hell forever. The test of life can best be performed by following the examples of the Prophet and God's word. Through this test, those that do well, their ultimate reward is to know Allah.

So let's look at the end result of this test. How many people attain salvation? How many go to hell or suffer some form of temporary or eternal punishment. It would seem it's the majority of humanity.

Getting to the analogy. If many students are failing the class or the purpose of the class, it can be due to these reasons:

1. The students aren't working hard or paying attention to the lessons.
2. The students are weak students to begin with or not ready for the class.
3. The teacher is not a good teacher and isn't preparing them well.
4. The class is too difficult thus the high failure rate.

The only acceptable one for a believer is of course number 1. The remaining 3 would contradict the believers philosophy of the test.  
So I'm just going to go with 1... there is a 5th option here as well. if the students aren't working hard or paying attention, who's ultimate fault is that? I used to work in a university and we did our best to filter the students, as a university the goal was to ENSURE students succeed. If there were students that we felt were not a good match, we would not accept them into the program. In addition we even provided counseling to weak students to get them prepared or find a better match. God already knows the in and out of every student, He is the creator of every student and the entire educational system! His own designed system results in a high failure rate, even if we lay all responsibility of these failures on the student, it still happened within the framework God created..

So God, who already knows the weak students from the best, goes out of his way to favor the best students with direct divine knowledge, and doesn't do much to filter out the weak students. Why? Why let weak students into the class, why let them take the test at all? Just so they can be punished? Just to prove a point? Just so that these evil tyrants oppress and cause extreme amount of suffering for the better students in the class? The analogy really falls apart and isn't applicable to God or this test of life.

 

 

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On 3/28/2021 at 8:10 AM, Guest Guest_Abdul said:

Logging in from a guest account .

'Trust' is not something limited to religion. Many 'mundane' things that we do are also acts of faith. You visit a doctor when you are sick; you act according to his prescription because you trust him. You undergo a surgery; you entrust yourself to the surgeon's care because you trust him. In both these cases, unless you are a doctor yourself and know the intricacies of medicine and anatomy, your trust in the doctors is tantamount to what the skeptics would call 'blind faith': you just act according to whatever they prescribe even without knowing why they are saying what they are saying. You board a flight because you trust the pilot to take you to your destination, even though the possibility remains that he may lose his way. I have not visited certain countries, but I believe that they exist because I trust the sources of information that tell me they do. Without trust, the world cannot function. We trust even when we don't understand what the individuals we trust are doing. Why is trust a bad thing? Where lies the harm if a believer trusts in God without seeing Him or the working of the celestial/metaphysical realm?

Is the issue of trust your problem with Islam?

Also, seeking forgiveness for my harsh reply. My ego got the better of me, and there is no justification for being rude in a debate.

I'm sorry but these analogies are just not applicable. Let's take the doctor. Do you know why I can trust a doctor:

First and foremost, I have direct access to doctors.  Additionally:
1. There are thousands of doctors across the world, they generally follow similar practices.
2. They are trained and certified by institutions.
3. The effectiveness of the medicine and advise they provide can be tested. Direct results of medicine can be directly observed.
4. There is constant research being done to improve medicine.
5. I personally know many doctors and thus can again directly access these people.

 

Let's compare this to religion:

1. No direct access to God, Prophet, or their successors, direct divine knowledge limited to elite. It's really a very elitist religion.
2. Each part of the world has different religion and religious history, they vastly differ and contradict each other.
3. After being a practicing Muslim for 30 plus years, did not understand rational or logic behind many acts. Did not feel their effectiviness. For example repeating certain names of God, repeating ziyarats, Quranic verses, daily prayers etc.
4. The so called urafa that can perform supernatural acts never come forward to prove they can do anything.
5. Only access to divine knowledge is historical and copied in books written hundreds of years ago and are full of problems and contradictions (e.g. hadith books are full of contradictory and "weak" hadith)

6. Prophethood ended 1400 years ago.

Do I trust the Prophet and Imams? The question has a builtin assumption, that is that everything reported about them to us is accurate or can be verified. It's the history, and the history writers, plus the leaders and politicians, plus the regular human beings throught out history that I don't trust. There is no way to independently verify these things well. How can I say anything about the Prophet and Imams in terms of trust since I have never seen or met them?  This is essentially the problem with every religion and believer.

Islam philosophy in real terms is contradictory and thus has to rely on really weak analogies and multiple interpretations and theories to resolve said contradictions... the biased mind that wants to believe becomes satiated with such analogies.

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