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In the Name of God بسم الله

Quesiton about asking prophets and imams for help

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Salaam brothers and sisters, I am a sunni who is very interested in Shia Islam. Some things are making sense and opening my eyes however, I am stuck and even after many many conversations with my Shia friends, I still am not able to be convinced with the permissibility of calling onto the prophets and imams for help. i.e. 'Ya Ali', 'ya Fatima help me', 'ya Muhammad help me', 'Ya imam rescue me' etc.. I just don't feel safe and at peace calling onto anyone but Allah. Is Allah not enough for us? Many times in the Quran it says only call to Allah. He is closer than your jugular vein. In Fatiha 'you alone to we worship and see help'. So why insist on saying ya Ali? Isn't saying 'Ya Allah' better for you? 

I want to also ask, when you call onto Rasoolallah or the imams, do you believe they will help you themselves personally? Or they will ask Allah to accept your requests? Or both?

Also, I know you will probably mention the verse where it says that those who gave their life in the way of Allah are not dead, but then does that mean I can ask a regular shaheed who was martyred in 2020 for help also? Since a regular person can also fall into this category of giving their lives for the sake of Allah. And if I cant ask the regular person, what proof do you have that it can only be for an infallible? 

Jazakallah khair. I hope this doesn't sound disrespectful but its just that I really want to find the truth but I am too scared to fall into shirk. This is one of the main things stopping me from considering Shia Islam. I hope someone can please shed some light into this inshallah :) 

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On 1/1/2021 at 9:19 PM, usman123 said:

Is Allah not enough for us?

Indeed He is! 

وَمَن يَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللَّهِ فَهُوَ حَسْبُهُ

65:3) for everyone who places his trust in God He is enough.

On 1/1/2021 at 9:19 PM, usman123 said:

I still am not able to be convinced with the permissibility of calling onto the prophets and imams for help. i.e. 'Ya Ali', 'ya Fatima help me', 'ya Muhammad help me', 'Ya imam rescue me' etc.

Who are these figures?

What is an Imam?

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Salam,

This is my thought!

If you love Rasulullah, it also means you love Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

If a muslim loves Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) but doesn't love the Prophet, will that be okay? Not ok! Am I right? Rasulullah and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) are connected all the time and forever.

There is a need to establish a link between a believer and Rasulullah (and Imams) if he wants to be a muslim. Even though Rasulullah is physically dead.  Spiritually our Prophet is alive.

If a person gets closer to Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), he is getting closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

How about if a muslim call upon Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).  Now, it has become a very controversial issue to many.  Are we disconnected to our Prophet? Or if we are not disconnected, will the Prophet hear our call and lead us to himself or to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

We read salawats.  Many salawats on daily basis.  Will that salawats lead us to our Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and His Family (عليه السلام)? Sure it will.  Once we are closer to the Prophet, it means we are closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ask muslims to love Prophet and Ahlulbayt?  Then we are asked to hold on to them. So what is a love? Love is a connection and a link through our heart. Love is part of holding on to them.

Is reading is enough to hold onto Quran and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? Or it is beyond that? Or having love and connection to them are also required? Is calling is part of holding onto an Imam?

So, as Bro @Coolstated...what is an Imam? The essence of an Imam is a secret within secrets.  If all muslims understand Imam the same (no secrets) everyone will easily be guided.  That is not the case.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Ultimate Secret. If we know certain secrets of the Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), we probably can do miracles.  So know the essence of an Imam before we love, hold on or call upon them.

We don’t know about the essence of Prophet and Imams, then read lots of Surah Al-fatiha (The opening)...so Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) show or open up to us the "Path" to Him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).  The Path is very much needed and very important.  The Path is also the essence of Prophet and Imams.

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6 hours ago, usman123 said:

In Fatiha 'you alone to we worship and seek help'. So why insist on saying ya Ali? Isn't saying 'Ya Allah' better for you?

There are answers directly from the Quran to support this. Shias have been reciting this verse at least 10 times a day for over a thousand years; we obviously understand what it means; we understand how's it used by those who are against tawassul, and we have solid arguments in support of it.

But first, you'll actually have to understand Imamate itself first. Also, as long as you don't properly understand Tabarra (disassociation), it will be very difficult to accept Imamate in the first place. If you are truly interested in the Twelver way, you might want to start with relearning Islamic history first, and comparing both sides and reach a verdict on your own.

Even some shias themselves have trouble with the idea of Ya Ali Madad etc (I did too at one point); you'll often find that they simultaneously have issues with components of Imamate and Tabarra.

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Knowing that every help comes from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), why do we say "fulan" has helped me? 

Sounds shirk! 

Saying to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

اياك نعبد و اياك نستعين

Yet we ask others for help many times in our life. 

Sounds shirk as well as munafiqat! 

I only know that God has commanded us this:

استعينو بالصبر و الصلاة

I know what is sabr & what is salah through Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). They themselves are the humanly manifestation of sabr & salah. Peace & blessings of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) be upon them. 

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Just as an FYI

Reflect on this Concept.

Quote

Zalim (unjust) in the view of the Quran, is he who worships, or has worshipped a ghayrallah. Shirk (idolatry) in the words of the Quran is the greatest zulm or injustice. Therefore he who, at any time in his life, has been a mushrik (idolater) can never be an Imam. Besides the Holy Prophet there was no one, among his companions, who had not been an idol-worshipper, save his cousin, Ali ibna abi Talib, who alone could be rightfully chosen by providence "to receive the covenant of imamat". The Holy Prophet, therefore, under the command of Allah transferred the imamat to Ali, and after Ali to the eleven Imams in the progeny of Muhammad and Ali. In this way the covenant of Allah with Ibrahim was fulfilled, and in the progeny of Isma-il the twelve princes, the twelve holy Imams, were born.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:124]  https://quran.al-islam.org/

Wilayat of Amir al-Muminin(Commander of the Faithful), Imam al-Muttaqeen(Leader of the Pious), Hujjah of Allah(عزّ وجلّ)(Proof of Allah(عزّ وجلّ), Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib(عليه السلام) was denied , similarly The Ex- pagans. Ex-Polytheist etc... who became Muslims could not be called for Help as they couldn't be called for anything, some of them are still be propped up by political factions, but none we say they could offer any assistance. They couldn't even when they were physically present they relied on Their Mawla even though thy denied the position in public.

So, The father of Mawla Ali(عليه السلام), The Concept of Wilayat, The  Concept Tawassul of Muhammad Al- Mustafa (peace be upon him and his pure progeny) will be denied just because of Mawla Ali(عليه السلام). This is the crux of these issues. 

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Posted (edited)
On 1/1/2021 at 7:19 PM, usman123 said:

Salaam brothers and sisters, I am a sunni who is very interested in Shia Islam. Some things are making sense and opening my eyes however, I am stuck and even after many many conversations with my Shia friends, I still am not able to be convinced with the permissibility of calling onto the prophets and imams for help. i.e. 'Ya Ali', 'ya Fatima help me', 'ya Muhammad help me', 'Ya imam rescue me' etc.. I just don't feel safe and at peace calling onto anyone but Allah. Is Allah not enough for us? Many times in the Quran it says only call to Allah. He is closer than your jugular vein. In Fatiha 'you alone to we worship and see help'. So why insist on saying ya Ali? Isn't saying 'Ya Allah' better for you? 

Thanks for your views about Tawassal and intercession.

The saying "Ya Muhammad" is also permissible as per sunni belief. The following link can be seen for details:

https://www.sunni-encyclopedia.com/2019/02/ya-muhammad.html

The Tawassal with the prophet and saints/ Awliya is also permissible as per sunni (other than extremist salafi):

http://www.ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=116

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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4 hours ago, Cool said:

Knowing that every help comes from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), why do we say "fulan" has helped me? 

Sounds shirk! 

Thanks.

l went-ah-lookn' and found some interesting comments at forum.wordreference.com on the first page. Supposedly, this is also equivalent to the English What's-his-name.

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48 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Thanks for your views about Tawassal and intercession.

The saying "Ya Muhammad" is also permissible as per sunni belief. The following link can be seen for details:

https://www.sunni-encyclopedia.com/2019/02/ya-muhammad.html

The Tawassal with the prophet and saints/ Awliya is also permissible as per sunni (other than extremist salafi):

http://www.ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=116

wasalam

This is interesting, so hold on, we can find these narrations in their sahih books, but what about us Shias, where do we have such narrations that are authentic?

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1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

Thanks for your views about Tawassal and intercession.

The saying "Ya Muhammad" is also permissible as per sunni belief. The following link can be seen for details:

https://www.sunni-encyclopedia.com/2019/02/ya-muhammad.html

The Tawassal with the prophet and saints/ Awliya is also permissible as per sunni (other than extremist salafi):

http://www.ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=116

wasalam

Jazakallah for sending this brother. But the problem is that the evidence you have is just the opinions of later scholars but I don’t see any explicit Hadith or from the Quran saying I should call upon the prophets or imams. This is not something I want to risk unless it’s crystal clear because of the dangerous of falling into shirk. 
 

and also some Hadith might say rasoolallah’s dua helped people but then again, he was present at the time and physically alive. When the companions asked rasoolallah to ask Allah, they asked him to his face when he was physically in front of them to hear him. I doubt they called onto him when they were in a different country or he wasn’t there to physically hear him. 
 

Thats why I want to know where the Hadith or Quran support this idea. That you can ask him for help when he’s not physically in front of you to hear your request with his ears. 

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56 minutes ago, usman123 said:

 But the problem is that the evidence you have is just the opinions of later scholars but I don’t see any explicit Hadith or from the Quran saying I should call upon the prophets or imams.

This Later Scholars just made it up. If so, you need worry about what else they made up. Your entire Belief system is in jeopardy. 

Who's interpretation of the Qur'an and Which route you want the Hadith from. 

From Ex pagan, Ex-polytheists, Ex-Non Muslims- , The freed slaves after the conquest of Mecca, or the ones made Errors of Judgement. Or the Purified Ones? 

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15 hours ago, usman123 said:

Salaam brothers and sisters, I am a sunni who is very interested in Shia Islam. Some things are making sense and opening my eyes however, I am stuck and even after many many conversations with my Shia friends, I still am not able to be convinced with the permissibility of calling onto the prophets and imams for help. i.e. 'Ya Ali', 'ya Fatima help me', 'ya Muhammad help me', 'Ya imam rescue me' etc.. I just don't feel safe and at peace calling onto anyone but Allah. Is Allah not enough for us? Many times in the Quran it says only call to Allah. He is closer than your jugular vein. In Fatiha 'you alone to we worship and see help'. So why insist on saying ya Ali? Isn't saying 'Ya Allah' better for you? 

I want to also ask, when you call onto Rasoolallah or the imams, do you believe they will help you themselves personally? Or they will ask Allah to accept your requests? Or both?

Also, I know you will probably mention the verse where it says that those who gave their life in the way of Allah are not dead, but then does that mean I can ask a regular shaheed who was martyred in 2020 for help also? Since a regular person can also fall into this category of giving their lives for the sake of Allah. And if I cant ask the regular person, what proof do you have that it can only be for an infallible? 

Jazakallah khair. I hope this doesn't sound disrespectful but its just that I really want to find the truth but I am too scared to fall into shirk. This is one of the main things stopping me from considering Shia Islam. I hope someone can please shed some light into this inshallah :) 

When we want something that our parents can provide us for example, we'll do du'a but we'll also ask them. 

Same way, I ask my Imams and my prophets whom I consider more closer than my parents to provide me something/ help because I know they will be able to provide me even from the other side. But at the same time I also do du'a to Allah because ultimately he's the one who provides. 

And we call upon them the same way a kid call upon his mum when he falls. Does that mean the kid is doing shirk? No. Then it would be okay for me to call upon ones whom I consider closer than my parents right?

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Jazakallah for sending this brother. But the problem is that the evidence you have is just the opinions of later scholars but I don’t see any explicit Hadith or from the Quran saying I should call upon the prophets or imams. This is not something I want to risk unless it’s crystal clear because of the dangerous of falling into shirk. 

If you read our majority of duas and saying of Imams (عليه السلام), you will found that they only asked in sincerity help from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only. 

Quote

and also some Hadith might say rasoolallah’s dua helped people but then again, he was present at the time and physically alive. When the companions asked rasoolallah to ask Allah, they asked him to his face when he was physically in front of them to hear him. I doubt they called onto him when they were in a different country or he wasn’t there to physically hear him. 
 

The problem is that who says that Prophet (saws) is needed in present in this life that Ya Muhammad dua is accepted? You do understand that Sunni scholars do have different opinion about this matter, some say that you can still do it and some says no.

Quote

Thats why I want to know where the Hadith or Quran support this idea. That you can ask him for help when he’s not physically in front of you to hear your request with his ears. 

 

The point is that by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) permission and will, the message will be delivered to the Prophet (saws).

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When we want something that our parents can provide us for example, we'll do du'a but we'll also ask them. 

Same way, I ask my Imams and my prophets whom I consider more closer than my parents to provide me something/ help because I know they will be able to provide me even from the other side. But at the same time I also do du'a to Allah because ultimately he's the one who provides. 

And we call upon them the same way a kid call upon his mum when he falls. Does that mean the kid is doing shirk? No. Then it would be okay for me to call upon ones whom I consider closer than my parents right?

This sound very wrong if Tawheed is not implied. As Ayatollah Bāqir Durche’ī said: 

“Why do you not say instead: Oh God, for the right of Abul Fadh give long life. Why do you give Divinity to him when in reality these great individuals are slaves of God. How can you consider them as equals to Him?”

Edited by Abu Nur
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3 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Thanks.

l went-ah-lookn' and found some interesting comments at forum.wordreference.com on the first page. Supposedly, this is also equivalent to the English What's-his-name.

"Fulan" فلان (so & so) is an Arabic word, it is used when intention is to not use name. In Sura e Furqan, the same word is present:

 

يَا وَيْلَتَى لَيْتَنِي لَمْ أَتَّخِذْ فُلَانًا خَلِيلًا

25:28 Oh, woe is me! Would that I had not taken so-and-so for a friend!

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, usman123 said:

Salaam brothers and sisters, I am a sunni who is very interested in Shia Islam. Some things are making sense and opening my eyes however, I am stuck and even after many many conversations with my Shia friends, I still am not able to be convinced with the permissibility of calling onto the prophets and imams for help. i.e. 'Ya Ali', 'ya Fatima help me', 'ya Muhammad help me', 'Ya imam rescue me' etc.. I just don't feel safe and at peace calling onto anyone but Allah. Is Allah not enough for us? Many times in the Quran it says only call to Allah. He is closer than your jugular vein. In Fatiha 'you alone to we worship and see help'. So why insist on saying ya Ali? Isn't saying 'Ya Allah' better for you? 

I want to also ask, when you call onto Rasoolallah or the imams, do you believe they will help you themselves personally? Or they will ask Allah to accept your requests? Or both?

Also, I know you will probably mention the verse where it says that those who gave their life in the way of Allah are not dead, but then does that mean I can ask a regular shaheed who was martyred in 2020 for help also? Since a regular person can also fall into this category of giving their lives for the sake of Allah. And if I cant ask the regular person, what proof do you have that it can only be for an infallible? 

Jazakallah khair. I hope this doesn't sound disrespectful but its just that I really want to find the truth but I am too scared to fall into shirk. This is one of the main things stopping me from considering Shia Islam. I hope someone can please shed some light into this inshallah :) 

Intercession is basically requesting another person to intercede for your request/wish in the court of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

As for your question about a martyr or anyone in human history. The answer to your question is in the Quran: "Who can intercedes with Him except the cases that He permits?”(Qur’an 2:255)

Only certain people are accepted as mediums of intercession, The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahylebayt(Peace be upon them) fall into this category. It's due to the permission of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Nothing else. 

Now for Sunni text:

The first reference is on the Tawassul of Ibn Abbas (رضي الله عنه) to Imam ‘Ali (عليه السلام). Please note that Ibn Abbas spoke the following words after the martyrdom of Imam ‘Ali. Thus he did ask for intermediary of what you called a dead person.

"When the death time of Abdullah Ibn Abbas (رضي الله عنه) approached, he said: `O Allah! I seek to approach toward you by means of Wilayah (accepting the mastery) of ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib.’“

Sunni references:

- Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p662, Tradition #1129
- al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, v3, p167
- Manaqib Ahmad

As for resorting to alive, al-Bukhari reported that Umar used make Tawassul to al-Abbas for rain:

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 5.59

Narrated Anas:

Whenever there was drought, ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab used to ask Allah for rain through Al-’Abbas bin ‘Abdul Muttalib, saying, "O Allah! We used to request our Prophet to ask You for rain, and You would give us. Now we request the uncle of our Prophet to ask You for rain, so give us rain.”And they would be given rain."

Further reading: https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/tawassul-resorting-intermediary

If Umar and Abdullah Ibn Abbas did it, then as a Sunni you can too. It's not necessarily a Shi'a thing only.

Wasalam.

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2 hours ago, usman123 said:

but I don’t see any explicit Hadith or from the Quran saying I should call upon the prophets or imams.

There is a thing which we Shia know as "wilayah".

We accept Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as our Mowla, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as our Mowla & Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and rest of 11 Imams as our Mowla. And this is totally based upon the following verse and famous hadith of Ghadeer ( من كنت مولا): 

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ {55}

[Shakir 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

Wilayah or Walayah is mentioned in another verse:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَهَاجَرُوا وَجَاهَدُوا بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنْفُسِهِمْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَالَّذِينَ آوَوْا وَنَصَرُوا أُولَٰئِكَ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءُ بَعْضٍ ۚ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَلَمْ يُهَاجِرُوا مَا لَكُمْ مِنْ وَلَايَتِهِمْ مِنْ شَيْءٍ حَتَّىٰ يُهَاجِرُوا ۚ وَإِنِ اسْتَنْصَرُوكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ فَعَلَيْكُمُ النَّصْرُ إِلَّا عَلَىٰ قَوْمٍ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَهُمْ مِيثَاقٌ ۗ وَاللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ {72}

[Shakir 8:72] Surely those who believed and fled (their homes) and struggled hard in Allah's way with their property and their souls, and those who gave shelter and helped-- these are guardians of each other; and (as for) those who believed and did not fly, not yours is their guardianship until they fly; and if they seek aid from you in the matter of religion, aid is incumbent on you except against a people between whom and you there is a treaty, and Allah sees what you do.

Perhaps you would say that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is not physically present among us so he cannot help us. 

First of all you would agree that for helping someone, physical presence is not a pre-requisite. Prerequisite is the state of life. If it is known that someone is alive, we can ask for his help. 

Here are the verses which proves the life of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Awliya Allah:

وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ لِمَنْ يُقْتَلُ فِي سَبيلِ اللّهِ أَمْوَاتٌ بَلْ أَحْيَاء وَلَكِن لاَّ تَشْعُرُونَ

2:154 And say not of those who are slain in God's cause, "They are dead": nay, they are alive, but you perceive it not.

وَلاَ تَحْسَبَنَّ الَّذِينَ قُتِلُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ أَمْوَاتًا بَلْ أَحْيَاء عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ يُرْزَقُونَ

3:169 But do not think of those that have been slain in God's cause as dead. Nay, they are alive! With their Sustainer have they their sustenance.

Neither you are allowed to "say" nor are allowed to "think" that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Awliya Allah are dead. They are alive. And not only alive, but taking their sustenance too. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has appointed them as witness over us:

وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا

2:143 And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you

Secondly, we don't limit the word Wali or Mowla by giving it the meaning of "friend" only. Even if you accept someone as friend, who else could be your helper, if not your friend! 

Mowla means "Guardian, Protector, Master etc. Verse 8:72 introducing Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as the protector & helper of those who remained in Makka and unable to migrate for some reasons. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has made incumbent on Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to help those in the following words:

"and if they seek aid from you in the matter of religion, aid is incumbent on you"

Here is the hadith for you:

An authentic Hadith reported by Abu Qatadah quotes the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as saying: “Whoever sees me in a dream actually sees me in truth.” (Related by Al-Bukhari and Muslim.) 

At another place, he is reported to have said: Whoever sees me in a dream has actually seen me. Satan cannot appear in my guise.”

Ibn Asakar has reported in his Tarikh:

On the 10th day of Mohurrum, Umme Salma fell asleep and saw the Messenger of Allah (S) in dream smeared in dust. She asked, “O Allah’s Messenger! What happened to you?”

“I have just witnessed the killing of Husayn.”

Umme Salma awoke perturbed and worried and cried, “Husayn is killed, O Allah, fill up their houses and graves with fire.”

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35 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

You won't find any. This isn't a Quranic practice or a sunnah of the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and his progeny (عليه السلام). 

I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah and my `Itrat (Progeny), my Ahlul Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.1

--------

To answer the above question, did you seek Direct Help/Communication with Allah(عزّ وجلّ)? 

Or did you utilize the 'Mute' Book- Which is one of the Two  Weighty Things sent by Allah(عزّ وجلّ)- 

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On 1/2/2021 at 11:43 AM, usman123 said:

 I don’t see any explicit Hadith or from the Quran saying I should call upon the prophets or imams. This is not something I want to risk unless it’s crystal clear because of the dangerous of falling into shirk. 

Someone ask "where are explicit ayats in Qur'an and Hadiths" that shows clearly the concept of Imamah?

But, we know that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has introduced the concept of Wali.  Ahlulbayt are the Ulil-Amri whether we see them physically or not.  They are with us and they are the PATH to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). That is how Imamah is introduced.

 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) explicitly say in Qur'an that 

Shakir 1:5] Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.

Now, how to serve and beseech Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

Immediately, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says 


[Shakir 1:6] Keep us on the right path.[Shakir 1:7] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

Be on the PATH...is the ONLY way to serve and beseech Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

What are those Bestowed Favors?  Those are Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

The essence of Prophet and Imams are "Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)".  

1.  Some people believe that the PATH (Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) is the written hadiths and duas.  Direct communication with Prophet and Imams not possible.  So call Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly.

2. Some people believe that communication is possible and recommended because the essence of Prophet and Imams are Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  When Names of Allah are called upon, it serve as PATH to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is beyond our description).

We call upon Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) using Ya Rahman and Ya Rahim...these specific Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) are  PATH or passageways.  In reality, these Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  are the make up of the unseen parts of a Prophet and Imams. 

If we call upon Prophet or Imams  knowing that their essence is Names of Allah ( or bestowed favors) and PATH to serve and beseech Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), then that is the meaning of acknowledging them as Ulil-Amr, and that request will straight goes to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

We read dua tawassul.. well known dua in Shia Islam.  We beseech Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by calling upon the Prophet and Imams directly...

"O Allah, I beseech You and turn my face toward You,in the name of Your Prophet; the Prophet of Mercy, Muhammad—may Allah send blessings to him and his Household.

يَا ابَا ٱلْقَاسِمِ

ya aba alqasimi

يَا رَسُولَ ٱللَّهِ

ya rasula allahi

يَا إِمَامَ ٱلرَّحْمَةِ

O Chief of Mercy!

يَا سَيِّدَنَا وَمَوْلاَنَا

ya sayyidana wa mawlana

O our master and chief!

We are turning our faces toward you, seeking your intercession and your advocacy for us before Allah; and we are presenting you [as our intermediary] for the settlement of our needs.

O well-esteemed with Allah, intercede for us before Allah."

 

If we failed to see that our Prophet's essence is Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), then tawassul or call upon directly through him is NOT permitted.

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Posted (edited)

Asking Prophets and Imams (tawassul and shifa3at) are actually very basic and simple concepts in Islam and have been mentioned many times in Quran and hadith, some of these instances have already been cited. 

The issue can be summarized as follows

If someone asks a Prophet or Imam for something, believing that this Prophet or Imam can give them something or help them with something INDEPENDENT of the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (in other words, this individual can help them by themselves without the help of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), then they are doing shirk. Plain and simple. Clear case

If someone asks a Prophet or Imam knowing that this Prophet or Imam only can help them if this is Allah(s.w.a)'s will, and knowing that it is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who has the power to help, then they are asking for Shifa3at, or asking the Prophet or Imam to intercede for them with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). They are not asking them for help, they are asking for intercession. I know that when you hear someone say 'Ya Ali Madad' (O Ali help me !) or some equivalent phrase, it may seem to the person listening that this person is asking Ali only for help, you don't know what is in the person's mind or what their intention is when they say that. So we shouldn't judge based on very limited information. 

I think the main reason that Shia ask in this way, is because they believe they are too sinful and too distant from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), because of their sins, and don't believe that them asking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly will work. So when they ask and they really need their ask to work, they ask in a way that we are taught has a greater chance of working. So there are two ways to do this. The first, and most common one, is to ask 'Bi Haqq Muhammad was Ahl Muhammad', by the Right of Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad or 'Bi Karamaten Muhammad was Ahl Muhammad', By the honor of Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad, etc (there are many phrases like this in Dua and authentic hadith. When someone says this (and this is by far the most common way to ask, for Shia), what they are saying is that 'Oh Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) I know that I am too distant from you because of my sins, and maybe you won't listen to me, but listen to me because of the High Station, Honor, and Right you have given to Muhammad wa Ahl Muhammad'. 

The second way is to ask the Prophet or Imam directly, which is the way that is most talked about and most criticized, but is actually the same thing, as long as the person doesn't believe that the Prophet or Imam has he power to help them INDEPENDENT of the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). They are asking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) thru the agency of the Prophet or Imam because they know that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is more likely to listen to a Prophet or Imam than to listen to them. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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5 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

This sound very wrong if Tawheed is not implied. As Ayatollah Bāqir Durche’ī said: 

“Why do you not say instead: Oh God, for the right of Abul Fadh give long life. Why do you give Divinity to him when in reality these great individuals are slaves of God. How can you consider them as equals to Him?”

Yes I thought about it, I think there are cases where you can only ask Allah. For example, for life and death, only Allah provides life and death so you can only ask him.

But if, for example, you need help in something, you can ask Allah and you can ask Imams to help as they are given power to do so... but ultimately you have to believe that all help comes from Allah. Tawheed is foremost, I agree.

Similarly, you ask for your rizq to Allah only but if you need a few sum you can Imam, just like how we can ask a friend or a parent... but in all cases the ultimate provider is Allah.

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1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

I know that when you hear someone say 'Ya Ali Madad' (O Ali help me !) or some equivalent phrase, it may seem to the person listening that this person is asking Ali only for help, you don't know what is in the person's mind or what their intention is when they say that. So we shouldn't judge based on very limited information. 

I understand and of course I never want to accuse someone of shirk without seeing what's in his heart.

BUT, don't you agree that it can be very misleading for many non Shias who will think that you are talking to Ali (عليه السلام) or whomever directly? Also, many laymen Shia (those with little knowledge) will think that it is okay to believe that we can receive help directly from these human beings because they see their sheikhs and ayatollahs saying this - therefore, causing a domino effect and people will continue to always have this belief. Wouldn't it be better to just say 'Ya Allah for the love of Ali', and only stick to this as this would cause much less confusion and make it clear to even those less learned in islam, that we still only ask Allah but through the love of the ahlul bayt (عليه السلام). 

Personally I believe the sheikhs should try and promote wording it only in the way of 'ya Allah for love of Muhammad and ale Muhammed, grant me this or help me..', since they are the leaders of the Shia and are looked up to; they have a responsibility to try their best to prevent any form or risk of shirk, thus better to encourage the followers to only word their duas like this to avoid confusion. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, usman123 said:

and also some Hadith might say rasoolallah’s dua helped people but then again, he was present at the time and physically alive. When the companions asked rasoolallah to ask Allah, they asked him to his face when he was physically in front of them to hear him. I doubt they called onto him when they were in a different country or he wasn’t there to physically hear him. 

Thanks for your reply. 

There is no unique opinion in sunnis about intercession and tawassal. Already quoted by brother AbuNur in earlier post.

In the life of the prophet companions used to say Ya Muhamamd as already quoted in hadith and sayings of companions (links provided in earlier post). The matter was not considered not permissible by the prophet for saying this (for help). Thus it is considered as part of sunnah for section of sunnis who believe in its permissibility .  Also there is no verse in the quran that states the permissibility or following the sunnah is only for the life of the prophet and not after him.

This is however not part of basic Shia creed . wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

This is interesting, so hold on, we can find these narrations in their sahih books, but what about us Shias, where do we have such narrations that are authentic?

This matter is being discussed between Shia / Sunni Dialgue section.

As far as matter of discussion between Shia itself is concerned there are many threads in others section of SC where such discussions have been carried out. Those can be seen or discussion may be initiated in other section of SC for this matter.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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58 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

This matter is being discussed between Shia / Sunni Dialgue section.

As far as matter of discussion between Shia itself is concerned there are many threads in others section of SC where such discussions have been carried out. Those can be seen or discussion may be initiated in other section of SC for this matter.

wasalam

Salaam Aleikum,

Many yes, but either it is my memory that have forgot or that I have never found any sahih narration about this matter. The only (other too, but I don't remember) proof I have found is the narration about Adam (عليه السلام) seeking repentance and God teach Him how he should do it by saying by right of the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). This is why you always found our scholars to prefer this method, because it is flawless and it is attached with tawheed and we have solid proof for it.

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9 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Salaam Aleikum,

Many yes, but either it is my memory that have forgot or that I have never found any sahih narration about this matter. The only (other too, but I don't remember) proof I have found is the narration about Adam (عليه السلام) seeking repentance and God teach Him how he should do it by saying by right of the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). 

My words have been mentioned already in last post so i am not going to repeat.

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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8 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah and my `Itrat (Progeny), my Ahlul Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.1

--------

To answer the above question, did you seek Direct Help/Communication with Allah(عزّ وجلّ)? 

Or did you utilize the 'Mute' Book- Which is one of the Two  Weighty Things sent by Allah(عزّ وجلّ)- 

Which question? 

The hadith is clear. The prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) has left behind the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). These are therefore our guides and references. 

Neither of them instruct us to supplicate to other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Therefore it isn't a practice of Shiism. 

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Salam to all,

Someone says "seek help DIRECTLY" to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Explain clearly what is meant by "DIRECTLY".  Meaning NOTHING between us and Essence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

Using HIS Names to call upon Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is NOT yet DIRECT.  Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) were created as MEAN or PATH to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

We cannot have a "Direct" access to Essence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Allah azawajalla is too PURE.  If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) expose His Essense to mountains, mountains will not able to stand.  None can stand!

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), with His Mercy gave us Approved Names so we can address Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Alhamdulillah.

Allah's Names are not Essence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  It just a Approved Path that was created to call upon Him.  Otherwise, humans will not know how to call upon Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) exist in Kaabah, and that structure turned into Baitullah.  We will committing shirk if we say "Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)" home is in Kaabah.  All that exists in Kaabah is His Holy Names..and it is a Path to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that is called Baitullah.  And we made sujud toward Baitullah because of that Pure Names.

The Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that exist in souls of Muhammad made him as Rasulullah.

So loving, sending blessings,  communication with the Prophet are basically Pathways toward Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Let give a scenario.  Let say we go back to the time of Prophet.  Let say Rasulullah instructs us to perform something.  It that instruction is from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) or just Muhammad? 

That instruction is equavalent to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is talking and instructing us. Those people that say that instruction is only from Muhammad, and did not see it from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), they are not yet a believer. 

We cannot separate Rasulullah from Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Rasulullah Essence are Pure Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  There is Absolute separation between Essence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to everything else including to Prophet and Imams.  Ahlulbayt is NOT Essence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Ahlulbayt is fastest Pathway to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

So can some who say seeking help from the Prophet is shirk, can you guys explain the word seek help DIRECTLY from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Where is the direct access, if not through means, to be precise...through PURE Means...Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

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