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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Assalam u Alaikum There is a controversy surrounding this film. A senior member of Shiachat has shared his thought provoking views on his blog. I found his views to be balanced and well articulat

The discretion exercised by our revered personalities and in my opinion also by the Qur'an is not one emulated by others, sadly. They see the resulting ambiguity as an opportunity for exercises i

I absolutely agree brother; I have looked into the details surrounding the event for years, with an open mind. His Eminence specifically said that those who said he "denied" the events are liars. That

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Salam 

Maybe this would be interesting to hear for some people who don't have a certain opinion or maybe wants to know more about this topic (if it's provocative ... Then a moderator can delete this post)

 

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This movie seems to be quite polarising, and rightly so.

On one hand, this movie will probably incorporate all the events surrounding the attack, and more. Perhaps events that raise several questions about their authenticity; something that will strengthen the "shias lie! they have no basis for their claims!" narrative amongst other sects.

On the other hand, there are those among the shias, who go along the lines of: "Hey, it isn't clear whether Umar hit Bibi Fatima ((عليه السلام))! Perhaps the Second Caliph wasn't such a bad guy after all!", and similar rubbish to "appease our sunni brothers".

Now I'm all for unity (as in coexistence), and Yasir Habib is a clown. Also, zakirs with half baked knowledge have caused more damage to the shia community, and their image, that won't be repaired any time soon.

That being said, its getting tiring now seeing people go "Fadhlullah questioned certain details of the attack! That means they never happened!". They never get to the sequel of this chain of thinking, so they don't realise that their "maybe the first three weren't such bad guys after all" vision is doomed, whether they like it or not.

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6 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

This movie seems to be quite polarising, and rightly so.

On one hand, this movie will probably incorporate all the events surrounding the attack, and more. Perhaps events that raise several questions about their authenticity; something that will strengthen the "shias lie! they have no basis for their claims!" narrative amongst other sects.

On the other hand, there are those among the shias, who go along the lines of: "Hey, it isn't clear whether Umar hit Bibi Fatima ((عليه السلام))! Perhaps the Second Caliph wasn't such a bad guy after all!", and similar rubbish to "appease our sunni brothers".

Now I'm all for unity (as in coexistence), and Yasser Habib is a clown. Also, zakirs with half baked knowledge have caused more damage to the shia community, and their image, that won't be repaired any time soon.

That being said, its getting tiring now seeing people go "Fadhlullah questioned certain details of the attack! That means they never happened!". They never get to the sequel of this chain of thinking, so they don't realise that their "maybe the first three weren't such bad guys after all" vision is doomed, whether they like it or not.

Salam. Sayyid Fadlallah(رضي الله عنه) never said that 'The attack on the house didn't happen' or that 'Umar was a good guy'. He never said that. So if people say that, they are not basing this opinion off the works of the Sayyid. It is coming from somewhere else.

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I am forwarding a relevant comment to the discussion and the need of the hour, ...
""A very verbose and utopian analysis on the simple fact that the film, while relying on historical facts is designed to use modern imagery to foment sectarian hatred.
The argument that it is written in books, spoken of in majalis and YouTube lectures does not take away from the fact that the manner of the production of the film, its setting and method of distribution will deliberately provoke and instigate deep hatred and violence because the incident of Bibi Fatima is being used to condemn the majority school of thought in Islam.
While we would like to see the reform of Shia thought and practise, the priority at the moment is that the film needs to be confronted and condemned at all levels - period.
Just as Imam Ali rebuked and rebuffed Abu Sufyan’s sympathies on the matter of Khilafat
There is a time and place for everything. Long drawn and inconclusive responses to fitna only add to confusion and give it more strength. Short and sharp is the need of the hour
May Allah Protect us from this fitna. In fact if we see the signs, we have been given ample warning to come together and do something about it. I think we need to recognise this blessing and act accordingly before it is really too late.""
Also
It is easy to sit there in London under the patronage and look like an intellectual.
Come here to India and Pakistan you will forget all intellectualism. The life of a Momin is more valuable than anything else and I don't do anything that has a potential to cause even a slight harm to the life, property, and honour of a Shia of Imam Ali. This is the fundamental of my religion. Did this not even cross your mind.  The own mujtahid argument that was presented above is quite feeble keeping in view the political and social impact. 
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On 12/28/2020 at 5:35 AM, Abbas. said:

1. Those who will be against the film for reasons such as 'it attacks the sensitivities of the Ahl al-Sunnah', or that 'it harms unity', do they not commemorate Fatimiyyah, not once, but twice a year (some places even three occasions)?

Isn't this a faulty analogy? The majalis are directed to shia audiences with the intention of commemoration and education. Many of the speakers don't even want those lectures to be online. The movie is intentionally made public with as much noise as they can muster, and it is done with motives in excess of commemoration. It is done to increase hatred, with no care for possible provocations.

Leaving aside the attack on the house, we have other well established teachings that we would not propagate in such a movie, but we would give lectures about them. Does that mean we should stop having lectures about all such subjects?

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2. There are some in the community who often say, "the era of dissimulation is over" (ironically similar to what the producers of this film have been saying for years), but yet will cite the need for dissimulation here for pragmatic reasons (i.e. unity).

I don't know who the author is speaking about because I have never seen this in the community. Maybe he knows some prominent people that practice what he is describing. Also it is possible to believe that taqiyyah is unwarranted with some matters, but not with others.

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10 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

The majalis are directed to shia audiences with the intention of commemoration and education. Many of the speakers don't even want those lectures to be online.

You think the non shias don't know what's being told in those majalis? or that they don't know our view on the martyrdom on Fatima(عليه السلام)?

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1 hour ago, starlight said:

You think the non shias don't know what's being told in those majalis? or that they don't know our view on the martyrdom on Fatima(عليه السلام)?

You might be surprised; in 2020 a surprising amount of non shias (in real life) legit don't know the names Yazid, Ibn Ziyad, Ibn Saad, Shimr, or their respective roles in Karbala; hundreds of years of our majalis still haven't taught them it seems.

Bibi Fatima's martyrdom is commemorated even less frequently then Karbala; they legit don't know our view, or even their own view for that matter. Leaving these aside, some people spend most of their lives without knowing Jamal and Siffin even happened, let alone their sects view on it.

This situation's only changing somewhat because of social media platforms.

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

we are unable to say with certainty the exact day/date of martyrdom of Syeda Zehra (s.a). 

I don't know about three, but I do have seen two Ayyam e Fatimiyyah in Iraq myself.

Salam we have  two Ayyam e Fatimiyyah in Iran too anyway  the more important  matter is her unknown  place of her burial & these ambiguous matters are from secrects that has symbolic  meaning about occultation  of Imam Mahdi (aj) that his place & time of birth  is unknown & vague  like her mother  the lady Fatima (sa) .

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Denying certain details is not grounds for excommunication like we saw in the case of Sayyid Fadlullah - perhaps the worst case of negative propaganda witnessed against a Shi'a scholar, by scholars themselves, in recent times.

Read his rational, see if it makes sense. There are personal, political concerns that some jurists may use to justify agnostic view. 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235059011-a-response-to-syyed-fadlullah-ra/?tab=comments#comment-3165419

 

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Please note my repeated mention of the word “details of the event”. No Muslim historian denies the existence of an altercation because Imam Ali (a) had refused to give allegiance after the demise of the Prophet (p). The discussion is on whether the details regarding the burning of the door, being whipped, or slapped, or having a miscarriage etc. can be reliably verified or not - details that will emotionally charge up any Shi'a if proven to be true. Given that the narrative pins the murder of Lady Fatima (s) on an individual or a group of individuals, a good litmus test may be to see whether the evidence we have at hand would be enough to find someone guilty or not even within a Shi’i court. If you were the one who was being charged for murder, and the accuser was using these sources as evidence, please consider what you would hope the judge’s verdict would be. Please consider the ethical implications of accusing someone of murder with such dubious evidence, even if they were usurpers of the caliphate that rightfully belonged to Ali (a).

You need to have some insight-Tragedy of Thursday is well documented. Yet they will explain it away ....So, well documented and all the i are dotted and t's are crossed wont help with the ones who will explain away all the sins and errors as errors of judgement. 

Who was in charge

Who was present

What is documented 

It is a petty that some of you want to just hone in on some odd point and build a case to dismiss it. View it from a 360 angle you can't deny the Truth.  Whatever Evidence is there, it leads what Educated/Logical Conclusion? Even a Non Shia knows who was incharge of the administration, who was present, what happned at the door ....these are sufficient to prove the guilt. There was an Evil design/motive and steps were taken and the evidence shows it. You can't dismiss everything which led to it by just asking  Who did the final act - its called distraction.

 

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5 hours ago, starlight said:

You think the non-shias don't know what's being told in those majalis? or that they don't know our view on the martyrdom on Fatima(عليه السلام)?

l have only 'screened' over this thread, but l can honestly say 'l do not know.'

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23 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

l have only 'screened' over this thread, but l can honestly say 'l do not know.'

It's okay. You also don't hate Shias or think of us as non believers. 

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11 hours ago, starlight said:

You think the non shias don't know what's being told in those majalis? or that they don't know our view on the martyrdom on Fatima(عليه السلام)?

Most Sunnis I have met don't. Perhaps where you live they do.

Even if they did, it wouldn't justify making that movie. Muslims know that Christians think the Prophet {s} was not speaking the truth, but it wouldn't be a good idea for them to make a multi-million dollar movie to vilify him.

In my view, we shouldn't overlook who is creating this movie. It's not just about the content. Even if the message was good, I wouldn't promote a film made by those very troubled people.

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On 12/28/2020 at 6:28 AM, Ain-Al Hayat said:

Salam 

Maybe this would be interesting to hear for some people who don't have a certain opinion or maybe wants to know more about this topic (if it's provocative ... Then a moderator can delete this post)

 

:salam:

Just look at the 'opening theme' of this majlis and you get the substance of what will be said throughout it. 

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Posted (edited)

Sunni sources show that threats took place and Fadak took place and also Sunni sources show that it is part of the Shia Belief that Fatimah (s.a) was attacked by the 2 caliphs, and fatima (s.a) miscarriages mohsen, [mentioned] in the time of imam jafar al-sadiq. Plus  some of the imams confirm. Last but not least Sunni sources show Fatimah dying while angry with abu baker clearly something took place. Add it all up and use ur heads and for the love of God when are you so called “Shia of Ali” are gonna stop being apologetic and stop beat around the bush. 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Add it all up and use ur heads and for the love of God when are you so called “Shia of Ali” are gonna stop being apologetic and stop beat around the bush.

Oh, none of us are being apologetic or beating around the bush here; we're not actually raising question marks on the incident itself here. We aren't attempting to clear the name of certain hell bound individuals here. What we are questioning is the wisdom of releasing such a movie, and the credibility of the people behind it. We are also questioning whether the portrayal of certain personalities might be presented in a fairly historically accurate manner here.

Regarding the last point, there are fairly popular stories about, for example, Yazid. We all know he was evil personified, but did he really commit zina with his mahrams, for example, or did he perform a certain indecent act with his father (these are actual stories I have heard from other shia kids in my childhood). Why do these embellishments exist, when there is a perfectly good case against him without these?

Btw, sunnis don't exactly play with the rules either: how many times have we heard that shias do indecent stuff during lights out in Shaam e Ghariban? Or cook our halim using kidnapped kids as ingredients? Or eat the najasat of our Zuljinah shabeehs? I'm not making this up; they were actually written in books in the last couple of centuries by nasibis.

 

If some of the rubbish that Yasir Habib spouts out ends up in this movie, the result will actually be more negative than positive. I'm somewhat prepared to give this movie the benefit of doubt; if it ends up being a fairly accurate representation, then something will happen that has never happened before; non shias will finally see that there's more to Islamic history than meets the eye; that there are some things that their maulanas and khateebs have tried to hide all their lives.

Edited by Sabrejet
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Questions:

1. If it is understood after release that the film is historically accurate, are you okay with it? 

2. Since we have movies for other Ma'soomeen and Prophets (عليهم اسلام), what kind of content would you like to see if it is made on Janabe Zehra (sa)? 

3. In this time and age when social media and Digital content is at all time high, don't you think we should utilize this medium to show sunnis reality of the their caliphs? 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Reza said:

The trailer has a over a million views on YouTube when I just checked.

How many Shia videos of any kind get that accolade? Most barely crack a thousand. That’s suspicious to me, considering how YouTube works.

well nadeem sarwar and ali waris nohas reach up to 10 million+

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Reza said:

The trailer has a over a million views on YouTube when I just checked.

How many Shia videos of any kind get that accolade? Most barely crack a thousand. That’s suspicious to me, considering how YouTube works.

There might be another explanation. There are thousands of videos telling people to boycott this movie. You know how human nature works; if you tell them to boycott something, they'll just get curious.

Also, there is no such publicity as bad publicity.

Edit: not thousands of videos; rather, a general buzz on social media telling people to boycott it. Also, the comments on some of the videos are interesting; some shia are telling people to boycott it because maraji' forbid it; others are replying "my marja' has no comment, so it's fine."

Edited by Sabrejet
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Posted (edited)

If any gevernment found the movie controversial and see it as potential to cause fitna, they are free to ban the movie. 

Salman Rushdi wrote a book and it is banned in majority of Muslim countries. What else! One may also expect to see a fatwa against the writer/producer/director of this movie. 

Secondly, majority of people are not really interested in history and what happened in the past. There are no caliphs now & there are apparently no Imam living among us. While Sunni & Shia do hold a different historical narrative from so long and they are managed to keep peaceful co-existence. 

One has every right to reject the historical narrative presented in the movie like most people reject the book of Sulaym bin Qays.  So I don't see any reason why the launch of this movies is becoming an issue here! 

 

Edited by Cool
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