The Lady of Heaven Movie

[Abbas.]

Assalam u Alaikum

There is a controversy surrounding this film. A senior member of Shiachat has shared his thought provoking views on his blog. I found his views to be balanced and well articulated. I encourage others to review the article and share their stance in a respectful manner. Please avoid posting content promoting the movie. This thread intends to raise the bar of intellectual honesty and truth seeking. As such, we expect that members will offer relevant comments with merit.
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By Sayyid Ali @Ibn al-Hussain

I’m sure by now many have seen the recent trailer for the film on Lady Fatima (s). Since the trailer's release, a number of people have messaged me personally asking “what I think”. To most of them I simply responded, there is not much to say at this point, it’s too late. The film will be released, and we can only brace for impact. Certain friends from Pakistan are already very concerned at the possible outlash they may face once non-Shi’a – extremists or not - in Pakistan learn about the film and how it depicts the caliphs. 

My views and approach to these discussions can – generally - very easily be gauged from the type of content I write and publish on Iqra Online. Four-to-five years ago, around the same time that the idea for this film was only just being publicized, I had written an article on the figure of Sulaym b. Qays so a very limited aspect of the discussions around him and the book could be accessible in English and in the hopes that it would generate some conversation regarding the book – which is one of the most important sources for many of the details that will depicted in the upcoming film. Although, I would update the article now with some more findings, as well as generally edit the paper as the writing style has changed a lot in the last few years, I'll share what I had written for those who haven’t seen it: https://www.iqraonline.net/sulaym-bin-qays-the-thin-line.../

The paper is very limited as far as it only concerns the discussion regarding Sulaym himself – whether he even existed or not - and does not deal with the rest of the issues regarding the book’s transmission, interpolations in the text, and as well as general textual criticism that can be done on its bizarre reports. Nevertheless, the problems with this book are well known and affirmed by too many researchers. If it is not the character of Sulaym himself, then there is a plethora of other issues that you still have to address. Ultimately, you have to answer whether such a source can be used as a means to develop a reliable historical narrative or not. 

—
But I think what is more pertinent to address are not the filmmakers and producers. Their views and sectarian agendas have widely been known for years; in fact, they openly acknowledge this. I do not believe they do this all based on whims, rather there definitely exists material in our corpus that they rely on. Those who think otherwise are poorly read and should go and maybe spend some time getting familiar with what is contained in our books, instead of always assuming it is just the books of others that contain problematic material. It was not a coincidence that during the time of Ayatullah Borujerdi when work on proximity with the Ahl al-Sunnah of Egypt was being done, that the Ayatullah had pushed for a ban on a few volumes of Bihar al-Anwar regarding the first three caliphs, because a lot of content exists there. Hence, for a number of years now, whether it be through the writings I’ve published, or through conversations I’ve had, I’ve tried to push for some sort of integrity and consistent standards in how we make use of sources and develop narratives, which we then use to push people to behave in a certain way or alter their understanding regarding religion, tashayyu‘, identity and so on. The issue I have with these groups is not that they are necessarily using material that does not exist, but in fact, the methodology (or the lack of it) they are employing by which they make use of these reports. 

In this vein, I believe the more important discussion needs to be held with the rest of the community, and where they stand in terms of being coherent and consistent with their beliefs or understanding of history, particularly the history of the Prophet (p) and the Ahl al-Bayt (a). Perhaps, moving forward and when coming up with responses to the very definite lash back we will encounter from the non-Shi’a communities, it may be wise to think about the following points so as to not be caught for being hypocritical and exhibiting double-standards:

1. Those who will be against the film for reasons such as 'it attacks the sensitivities of the Ahl al-Sunnah', or that 'it harms unity', do they not commemorate Fatimiyyah, not once, but twice a year (some places even three occasions)? Often these speeches are uploaded onto YouTube, in various languages. These videos have eulogies at the end which include references to the attack and as well as indirect or direct references to those who attacked the house. Maybe, think about this phenomenon that has been readily accessible by the Ahl al-Sunnah for years, and these videos have been used by anti-Shia polemicists for a long time. If one is ignorant of how aggressively anti-Shia polemicists in the last few years have been thriving on ammo that we have been providing them, then that is even more embarrassing. 

2. There are some in the community who often say, "the era of dissimulation is over" (ironically similar to what the producers of this film have been saying for years), but yet will cite the need for dissimulation here for pragmatic reasons (i.e. unity). At the end of the day, they should let us know whether the era of dissimulation is over or not? Need serious consistency on this. If dissimulation is still to be done in some areas, then do not preach such dramatic clichés that "the era" is over when you will conveniently hide behind it elsewhere.

3. While the film will appear to anachronistically pin modern-day terrorism onto an early event in Islamic history, a very naïve approach to understanding historical events, but how much of this rhetoric and these approaches already exist and are spread from our pulpits all year long? All sorts of anachronistic interpretations are being done by different speakers pushing different agendas (perhaps sometimes unintentionally – who knows at this point). Maybe we need to be consistent in calling all these fallacies out. Just because other interpretations are not provocative towards other sects and do not put our lives literally in danger, does not mean they do not do other types of damage to the collective understanding of the community by altering their perceptions of what happened, and then these perceptions are played on to push certain agendas and make people behave a certain way. These could be interpretations that are done to push feminist agendas by portraying Fatima (s) or Zaynab (s) in certain ways, or political agendas by portraying the - exceptional - role of Imam Husayn (a) in a certain way, pushing the “end of times” and “the reappearance is near” rhetoric by using weak sources accompanied with fallacious applications of these reports on events and contemporary personalities, or any other agendas or ideologies that are superimposed onto historical events and personalities to construct a narrative. 

These narratives are used to hype up people in the communities, make them behave a certain way, when in reality the sources for these ideas are either very problematic or the narratives suffer from an unexhaustive look at as many dimensions as possible to arrive at the best possible understanding. Some of these narratives have been fed to the communities for so many decades that it is suffocating to even think about how to go about correcting them. On top of that, what we hear at times is to not brush these false interpretations and the movements originating in these incorrect explanations because they are good and have supposed benefits for us as a community. This is while on the other hand it is preached that Islam is all about the “method”, it is about “how” you get to your conclusions, and not “what” conclusion you arrive at! Please make up your mind, or at the very least do not attribute these movements and false conclusions to Islam and tashayyu'.

I pray we can one day be identified – from the inside and as well as by outsiders - as a community that lives up to some of the more fundamental teachings of the Prophet (p) and of the inheritors of his (a) knowledge, the Imams of the Ahl al-Bayt. When will we make our communities be known as communities that study and engage with the sirah of the final Prophet (p) and know how to apply it in today's times? When will we begin engaging and teaching our communities about Quranic exegesis beyond some rudimentary explanations here and there? How is it possible for a community that claims to follow the Prophet (p) and the Ahl al-Bayt (a) to be so detached from the Quran and have no affinity with it besides being able to just read it? When will we begin exploring and teaching the plethora of narrations regarding Allah, His Attributes and other theological teachings in order to help develop a stronger monotheistic worldview, which is so imperative in today’s day and age? When are we going to start prioritizing the recitation and study of the reliable supplications by the Imams (a), instead of only going to them when engaging in a marathon on Laylatul Qadr? There is too much to explore, but our priorities seem to be in making sure Wikipedia lists us for the largest annual gathering. When an entry on Wikipedia seems to be the greatest concern for some in the community, that is a sign of serious intellectual poverty.

4. While there is no doubt that the vast majority of Shi'a scholars have accepted the event of the attack and burning of the door as well as the subsequent martyrdom of Lady Fatima (s) due to it, and I do not think the popularity of this position will be jeopardized any time soon, I believe communities need to be educated that there does exist an alternative narrative which is - historically speaking - justified. Denying certain details is not grounds for excommunication like we saw in the case of Sayyid Fadlullah - perhaps the worst case of negative propaganda witnessed against a Shi'a scholar, by scholars themselves, in recent times. Coincidentally, I am reminded of similar propaganda campaign that was done against Sayyid Muhsin al-Amin in the 1930s, who was also a victim of a similar onslaught from scholars in Najaf when he wrote a treatise against the practice of self-flagellation when he was calling the practice out for giving a bad impression of our religion. In any case, you can’t preach that historians will arrive at different conclusions because historical study is often subjective and different scholars have different approaches, but then at the same time excommunicate a scholar for then using their right to investigate the sources for an event and arriving at a different conclusion!

5. As alluded to earlier, much of the details for the event come from a single book, the Kitab of Sulaym. Some partial details exist here and there in some other works, often also questionable (for example Dala'il al-Imamah). If any other sect used a similar book like Sulaym’s to establish some historical event, let alone its detail, I believe we would have turned them into a laughing stock. But instead, we have been bringing people up with the notion that the details of the attack are so well established, "all over Sunni books" (even though the Sunni books don't contain any such details, and if any specific detail is indeed found, it is generally a dubious book for them), "they have tawatur (widely transmitted)" and so on, not acknowledging that in fact, the sources for the details are extremely scarce and limited. 

Please note my repeated mention of the word “details of the event”. No Muslim historian denies the existence of an altercation because Imam Ali (a) had refused to give allegiance after the demise of the Prophet (p). The discussion is on whether the details regarding the burning of the door, being whipped, or slapped, or having a miscarriage etc. can be reliably verified or not - details that will emotionally charge up any Shi'a if proven to be true. Given that the narrative pins the murder of Lady Fatima (s) on an individual or a group of individuals, a good litmus test may be to see whether the evidence we have at hand would be enough to find someone guilty or not even within a Shi’i court. If you were the one who was being charged for murder, and the accuser was using these sources as evidence, please consider what you would hope the judge’s verdict would be. Please consider the ethical implications of accusing someone of murder with such dubious evidence, even if they were usurpers of the caliphate that rightfully belonged to Ali (a).

Inconsistent propagation of beliefs and ideas is a tragedy we've been facing for a while now. Unfortunately speaking out and offering alternative narratives and explanations is very difficult in our communities as you will often be shred apart by those whose livelihood is tied to these events and as well as the laity who does not know any better and cannot be blamed.

I do pray that this film will actually become the catalyst for not what it intended, rather for us in the community to engage in a more nuanced discussion regarding these matters instead of beating around the bush.

[Ain-Al Hayat]

Salam 

Maybe this would be interesting to hear for some people who don't have a certain opinion or maybe wants to know more about this topic (if it's provocative ... Then a moderator can delete this post)

 

[Haji 2003]

This film is surely just a symptom of a Shia chauvinism which was a space that someone or another was bound to try and occupy, particularly at a time when the right-wing end of the political spectrum is becoming popular across a range of nationalities and religions.

People may well have noble goals in addressing the historicity of this film, but the broader issue of the extent to which Shias seek a more emphatic characterisation of the first three caliphs will remain.

 

[Abu Hadi]

19 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

This film is surely just a symptom of a Shia chauvinism which was a space that someone or another was bound to try and occupy, particularly at a time when the right-wing end of the political spectrum is becoming popular across a range of nationalities and religions.

People may well have noble goals in addressing the historicity of this film, but the broader issue of the extent to which Shias seek a more emphatic characterisation of the first three caliphs will remain.

 

I think the film is only a symptom of a larger issue that is present within the Shia community, addressed in the article posted by Br. Abbas. The main issue is that majalis, in addition to being used for their intended purpose, are also being used as a form of entertainment, this movie is just the latest iteration of that trend. It is a further point on the line, but not a different line. Speakers are adding in details to the majalis that are either from weak narrations or entirely made up. Like the author said in the article, brothers and sisters get so used to hearing these details over and over again, that they think of them as fact without critically examining them in light of their sources. So when an alim, like Sayyid Fadlallah(رضي الله عنه) comes along and does a logical / critical analysis of these details based on sources and scholarly evidence, people come 'unglued' and he is attacked and framed as 'attacking Shiism' and 'kissing up to the Sunnis' without actually looking at the evidence he is presenting. So we are in the state we are now, and we have laid the groundwork ourselves for things like this to come out by failing to try to examine the true and real facts around the historical events that happened after Saqifa. If we do this, we will find that many of the things that we believe are in fact true and supported by lots of evidence, but some of them aren't. Until we, as Shia, do this, others are going to exploit this blind spot of ours for their own purposes. 

I also listened to the speech of Sayyid Ammar that was posted. He said exactly what I thought he would say, and most of it I agree with but some of it I don't. He made the same point about a single source for details (the Kitab of Sulaym) like the slapping of Sayyida Fatima((عليه السلام))  by Umar and the nail in the door that caused her to miscarry. But he defended this by saying that others quoted from this source. That's kind of a weak defense (IMHO), because people quote from weak sources all the time. Just because someone quotes a weak source does not make it stronger, just like building additional stories on top of a weak foundation does not make the building stronger. We criticize our Sunni brothers for using this line of reasoning when it comes to the Sahih books, but we fail sometimes to criticize our Shia brothers when they do the same thing. Also, Sayyid Ammar is not a neutral source, or disinterested party. He makes his living from doing Majalis. I am not saying that this is a bad thing or that he shouldn't do it, but he should realize this fact and use it to calibrate his readiness to accept sources that help him to expand his repertoire but may not, in fact, contain facts that are 100% true. I highly respect Sayyid Ammar, and I think he is doing a great service to the community thru his Majalis and Lectures, and he gets paid well for them and he deserves that. At the same time, he has blind spots just like everyone else. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Abu Hadi

[Sabrejet]

This movie seems to be quite polarising, and rightly so.

On one hand, this movie will probably incorporate all the events surrounding the attack, and more. Perhaps events that raise several questions about their authenticity; something that will strengthen the "shias lie! they have no basis for their claims!" narrative amongst other sects.

On the other hand, there are those among the shias, who go along the lines of: "Hey, it isn't clear whether Umar hit Bibi Fatima ((عليه السلام))! Perhaps the Second Caliph wasn't such a bad guy after all!", and similar rubbish to "appease our sunni brothers".

Now I'm all for unity (as in coexistence), and Yasir Habib is a clown. Also, zakirs with half baked knowledge have caused more damage to the shia community, and their image, that won't be repaired any time soon.

That being said, its getting tiring now seeing people go "Fadhlullah questioned certain details of the attack! That means they never happened!". They never get to the sequel of this chain of thinking, so they don't realise that their "maybe the first three weren't such bad guys after all" vision is doomed, whether they like it or not.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Sabrejet

[Abu Hadi]

6 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

This movie seems to be quite polarising, and rightly so.

On one hand, this movie will probably incorporate all the events surrounding the attack, and more. Perhaps events that raise several questions about their authenticity; something that will strengthen the "shias lie! they have no basis for their claims!" narrative amongst other sects.

On the other hand, there are those among the shias, who go along the lines of: "Hey, it isn't clear whether Umar hit Bibi Fatima ((عليه السلام))! Perhaps the Second Caliph wasn't such a bad guy after all!", and similar rubbish to "appease our sunni brothers".

Now I'm all for unity (as in coexistence), and Yasser Habib is a clown. Also, zakirs with half baked knowledge have caused more damage to the shia community, and their image, that won't be repaired any time soon.

That being said, its getting tiring now seeing people go "Fadhlullah questioned certain details of the attack! That means they never happened!". They never get to the sequel of this chain of thinking, so they don't realise that their "maybe the first three weren't such bad guys after all" vision is doomed, whether they like it or not.

Salam. Sayyid Fadlallah(رضي الله عنه) never said that 'The attack on the house didn't happen' or that 'Umar was a good guy'. He never said that. So if people say that, they are not basing this opinion off the works of the Sayyid. It is coming from somewhere else.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Abu Hadi

[Sabrejet]

22 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

Salam. Sayyid Fadlallah(رضي الله عنه) never said that 'The attack on the house didn't happen' or that 'Umar was a good guy'. He never said that. So if people say that, they are not basing this opinion off the works of the Sayyid. It is coming from somewhere else.

I absolutely agree brother; I have looked into the details surrounding the event for years, with an open mind. His Eminence specifically said that those who said he "denied" the events are liars. That hasn't stopped random people in the past twist his views to support their narrative.

That being said, other marjas and scholars have expressed their own views on the matter too, and some have refuted him without saying his name.

This event is something that none of my shia family told me when I was growing up: it's based on my own journey over the years, and I actually looked at all points of view from shia and sunni scholars. I avoided Zakirs, Yasir Habib and their likes like the plague during all this. In the end, I reached the conclusion that certain people will certainly be burning in hell for what they did. However, we don't say their names; our Imam's refrained from cursing them by name, and it's against forum rules.

Any movies based on weak sources and fabricated narratives will do nothing but weaken our case though.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Sabrejet

[Haji 2003]

3 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

I reached the conclusion that certain people will certainly burning in hell for what they did. However, we don't say their names; our Imam's refrained from cursing them by name, and it's against forum rules.

The discretion exercised by our revered personalities and in my opinion also by the Qur'an is not one emulated by others, sadly.

They see the resulting ambiguity as an opportunity for exercises in 'join-the-dots'.

[Guest Guest]

I am forwarding a relevant comment to the discussion and the need of the hour, ...

""A very verbose and utopian analysis on the simple fact that the film, while relying on historical facts is designed to use modern imagery to foment sectarian hatred.

The argument that it is written in books, spoken of in majalis and YouTube lectures does not take away from the fact that the manner of the production of the film, its setting and method of distribution will deliberately provoke and instigate deep hatred and violence because the incident of Bibi Fatima is being used to condemn the majority school of thought in Islam.

While we would like to see the reform of Shia thought and practise, the priority at the moment is that the film needs to be confronted and condemned at all levels - period.

Just as Imam Ali rebuked and rebuffed Abu Sufyan’s sympathies on the matter of Khilafat

There is a time and place for everything. Long drawn and inconclusive responses to fitna only add to confusion and give it more strength. Short and sharp is the need of the hour

May Allah Protect us from this fitna. In fact if we see the signs, we have been given ample warning to come together and do something about it. I think we need to recognise this blessing and act accordingly before it is really too late.""

Also

It is easy to sit there in London under the patronage and look like an intellectual.

Come here to India and Pakistan you will forget all intellectualism. The life of a Momin is more valuable than anything else and I don't do anything that has a potential to cause even a slight harm to the life, property, and honour of a Shia of Imam Ali. This is the fundamental of my religion. Did this not even cross your mind.  The own mujtahid argument that was presented above is quite feeble keeping in view the political and social impact. 

[Muhammed Ali]

On 12/28/2020 at 5:35 AM, Abbas. said:

1. Those who will be against the film for reasons such as 'it attacks the sensitivities of the Ahl al-Sunnah', or that 'it harms unity', do they not commemorate Fatimiyyah, not once, but twice a year (some places even three occasions)?

Isn't this a faulty analogy? The majalis are directed to shia audiences with the intention of commemoration and education. Many of the speakers don't even want those lectures to be online. The movie is intentionally made public with as much noise as they can muster, and it is done with motives in excess of commemoration. It is done to increase hatred, with no care for possible provocations.

Leaving aside the attack on the house, we have other well established teachings that we would not propagate in such a movie, but we would give lectures about them. Does that mean we should stop having lectures about all such subjects?

Quote

2. There are some in the community who often say, "the era of dissimulation is over" (ironically similar to what the producers of this film have been saying for years), but yet will cite the need for dissimulation here for pragmatic reasons (i.e. unity).

I don't know who the author is speaking about because I have never seen this in the community. Maybe he knows some prominent people that practice what he is describing. Also it is possible to believe that taqiyyah is unwarranted with some matters, but not with others.

[Muhammed Ali]

On 12/28/2020 at 5:35 AM, Abbas. said:

excommunicate a scholar

You know it was much more than questioning one event.

[Guest Molana Laddan]

If it’s not already posted.

 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

The majalis are directed to shia audiences with the intention of commemoration and education. Many of the speakers don't even want those lectures to be online.

You think the non shias don't know what's being told in those majalis? or that they don't know our view on the martyrdom on Fatima(عليه السلام)?

[Sabrejet]

1 hour ago, starlight said:

You think the non shias don't know what's being told in those majalis? or that they don't know our view on the martyrdom on Fatima(عليه السلام)?

You might be surprised; in 2020 a surprising amount of non shias (in real life) legit don't know the names Yazid, Ibn Ziyad, Ibn Saad, Shimr, or their respective roles in Karbala; hundreds of years of our majalis still haven't taught them it seems.

Bibi Fatima's martyrdom is commemorated even less frequently then Karbala; they legit don't know our view, or even their own view for that matter. Leaving these aside, some people spend most of their lives without knowing Jamal and Siffin even happened, let alone their sects view on it.

This situation's only changing somewhat because of social media platforms.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Sabrejet

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

n 2020 a surprising amount of non shias (in real life) legit don't know the names Yazid,

The one who doesn't know enough history to know the name of Yazid wouldn't care much about Saqifa and Fatima(عليه السلام) either, speaking of which there are people who call themselves shias but don't know who ibn Ziyad is. 

My point was the population of muslims who might get hurt or offended by this movie or those who might want shias to be killed already know what's our narrative about this particular incident.

[Cool]

On 12/28/2020 at 10:35 AM, Abbas. said:

do they not commemorate Fatimiyyah, not once, but twice a year (some places even three occasions)?

I find it very strange! How is that the today's scholars doing hard work in the field of Rijal, searching for the authenticity of every hadith. So many genuine companions of Imams are now known by us, yet we are unable to say with certainty the exact day/date of martyrdom of Syeda Zehra (s.a). 

I don't know about three, but I do have seen two Ayyam e Fatimiyyah in Iraq myself. 

Similarly is the case of birth & matyrdom/wafat date of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)., Sunni's have a totally different story than ours. And similar is the case of birth & martyrdom dates of many Imams. 

So when scholars are unable to reach to a consesus regarding with the date of birth & martyrdom of Ma'sum, how can they come to a consensus about the existence of a character who is supposed/said to be existed 1300 years ago! 

Anyway, making film on the life of Syed Fatima s.a is not a crime. One has to rely on any historical record for filming her life and martyrdom, whether shi'i or non-shi'i, whether reliable or non-reliable. What is important for us is to see that how this film has portrayed the character, life & death of Syeda s.a and what message is intended to deliver to the viewers. 

Sunni's know our books & what is written in them. They are well aware of the fact that we don't accept the caliphate of their first 3 caliphs. They know everything what happened after the death of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to saqifa to fadak to jamal, siffin, nehrwan to karbala. They know the disputes & fighting between the companions but they don't openly discuss the "mushajirat e sahaba" while we do discuss them. 

So I am pretty much agreed with what has been mentioned by Dr. Ammar in the video posted above. There is no problem in making film on the lives of Ma'sumeen (عليه السلام) and there is no need to cast fears about sectarian violence. We are already facing it without making the film. 

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 12/31/2020 at 2:47 AM, Cool said:

we are unable to say with certainty the exact day/date of martyrdom of Syeda Zehra (s.a). 

I don't know about three, but I do have seen two Ayyam e Fatimiyyah in Iraq myself.

Salam we have  two Ayyam e Fatimiyyah in Iran too anyway  the more important  matter is her unknown  place of her burial & these ambiguous matters are from secrects that has symbolic  meaning about occultation  of Imam Mahdi (aj) that his place & time of birth  is unknown & vague  like his mother  the lady Fatima (sa) .

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

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Denying certain details is not grounds for excommunication like we saw in the case of Sayyid Fadlullah - perhaps the worst case of negative propaganda witnessed against a Shi'a scholar, by scholars themselves, in recent times.

Read his rational, see if it makes sense. There are personal, political concerns that some jurists may use to justify agnostic view. 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235059011-a-response-to-syyed-fadlullah-ra/?tab=comments#comment-3165419

 

Quote

Please note my repeated mention of the word “details of the event”. No Muslim historian denies the existence of an altercation because Imam Ali (a) had refused to give allegiance after the demise of the Prophet (p). The discussion is on whether the details regarding the burning of the door, being whipped, or slapped, or having a miscarriage etc. can be reliably verified or not - details that will emotionally charge up any Shi'a if proven to be true. Given that the narrative pins the murder of Lady Fatima (s) on an individual or a group of individuals, a good litmus test may be to see whether the evidence we have at hand would be enough to find someone guilty or not even within a Shi’i court. If you were the one who was being charged for murder, and the accuser was using these sources as evidence, please consider what you would hope the judge’s verdict would be. Please consider the ethical implications of accusing someone of murder with such dubious evidence, even if they were usurpers of the caliphate that rightfully belonged to Ali (a).

You need to have some insight-Tragedy of Thursday is well documented. Yet they will explain it away ....So, well documented and all the i are dotted and t's are crossed wont help with the ones who will explain away all the sins and errors as errors of judgement. 

Who was in charge

Who was present

What is documented 

It is a petty that some of you want to just hone in on some odd point and build a case to dismiss it. View it from a 360 angle you can't deny the Truth.  Whatever Evidence is there, it leads what Educated/Logical Conclusion? Even a Non Shia knows who was incharge of the administration, who was present, what happned at the door ....these are sufficient to prove the guilt. There was an Evil design/motive and steps were taken and the evidence shows it. You can't dismiss everything which led to it by just asking  Who did the final act - its called distraction.

 

[hasanhh]

5 hours ago, starlight said:

You think the non-shias don't know what's being told in those majalis? or that they don't know our view on the martyrdom on Fatima(عليه السلام)?

l have only 'screened' over this thread, but l can honestly say 'l do not know.'

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

l have only 'screened' over this thread, but l can honestly say 'l do not know.'

It's okay. You also don't hate Shias or think of us as non believers. 

[hasanhh]

6 minutes ago, starlight said:

You also don't hate Shias or think of us as non believers. 

Correct

[bibishia1980]

Smh... while bringing truth about an historical person/event the Muslim world will continue to insert racism in the narrative. The trailer of this movie says it all. 

[Muhammed Ali]

11 hours ago, starlight said:

You think the non shias don't know what's being told in those majalis? or that they don't know our view on the martyrdom on Fatima(عليه السلام)?

Most Sunnis I have met don't. Perhaps where you live they do.

Even if they did, it wouldn't justify making that movie. Muslims know that Christians think the Prophet {s} was not speaking the truth, but it wouldn't be a good idea for them to make a multi-million dollar movie to vilify him.

In my view, we shouldn't overlook who is creating this movie. It's not just about the content. Even if the message was good, I wouldn't promote a film made by those very troubled people.

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

Quote

 the nail in the door that caused her to miscarry. 

Just as an fyi.

"Has the news of the Nail reached you? " Ayatollah Vahid Khorasani   (  http://wahidkhorasani.com/English )

Here 09:00min in Video

https://youtu.be/frplGqHhIrs

[realizm]

On 12/28/2020 at 6:28 AM, Ain-Al Hayat said:

Salam 

Maybe this would be interesting to hear for some people who don't have a certain opinion or maybe wants to know more about this topic (if it's provocative ... Then a moderator can delete this post)

 

Just look at the 'opening theme' of this majlis and you get the substance of what will be said throughout it. 

[THREE1THREE]

Sunni sources show that threats took place and Fadak took place and also Sunni sources show that it is part of the Shia Belief that Fatimah (s.a) was attacked by the 2 caliphs, and fatima (s.a) miscarriages mohsen, [mentioned] in the time of imam jafar al-sadiq. Plus  some of the imams confirm. Last but not least Sunni sources show Fatimah dying while angry with abu baker clearly something took place. Add it all up and use ur heads and for the love of God when are you so called “Shia of Ali” are gonna stop being apologetic and stop beat around the bush. 

[Sabrejet]

28 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Add it all up and use ur heads and for the love of God when are you so called “Shia of Ali” are gonna stop being apologetic and stop beat around the bush.

Oh, none of us are being apologetic or beating around the bush here; we're not actually raising question marks on the incident itself here. We aren't attempting to clear the name of certain hell bound individuals here. What we are questioning is the wisdom of releasing such a movie, and the credibility of the people behind it. We are also questioning whether the portrayal of certain personalities might be presented in a fairly historically accurate manner here.

Regarding the last point, there are fairly popular stories about, for example, Yazid. We all know he was evil personified, but did he really commit zina with his mahrams, for example, or did he perform a certain indecent act with his father (these are actual stories I have heard from other shia kids in my childhood). Why do these embellishments exist, when there is a perfectly good case against him without these?

Btw, sunnis don't exactly play with the rules either: how many times have we heard that shias do indecent stuff during lights out in Shaam e Ghariban? Or cook our halim using kidnapped kids as ingredients? Or eat the najasat of our Zuljinah shabeehs? I'm not making this up; they were actually written in books in the last couple of centuries by nasibis.

 

If some of the rubbish that Yasir Habib spouts out ends up in this movie, the result will actually be more negative than positive. I'm somewhat prepared to give this movie the benefit of doubt; if it ends up being a fairly accurate representation, then something will happen that has never happened before; non shias will finally see that there's more to Islamic history than meets the eye; that there are some things that their maulanas and khateebs have tried to hide all their lives.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Sabrejet

[Guest Advice]

The movie didnt even get released lol

[Sirius_Bright]

Questions:

1. If it is understood after release that the film is historically accurate, are you okay with it? 

2. Since we have movies for other Ma'soomeen and Prophets (عليهم اسلام), what kind of content would you like to see if it is made on Janabe Zehra (sa)? 

3. In this time and age when social media and Digital content is at all time high, don't you think we should utilize this medium to show sunnis reality of the their caliphs? 

[MohammadAli1993]

On 12/31/2020 at 12:17 PM, bibishia1980 said:

Smh... while bringing truth about an historical person/event the Muslim world will continue to insert racism in the narrative. The trailer of this movie says it all. 

What racism? 

[Reza]

The trailer has over a million views on YouTube when I just checked.

How many Shia videos of any kind get that accolade? Most barely crack a thousand. That’s suspicious to me, considering how YouTube works.

[El Cid]

On 1/1/2021 at 10:26 PM, Reza said:

The trailer has over a million views on YouTube when I just checked.

How many Shia videos of any kind get that accolade? Most barely crack a thousand. That’s suspicious to me, considering how YouTube works.

well nadeem sarwar and ali waris nohas reach up to 10 million+

[Sabrejet]

On 1/1/2021 at 10:26 PM, Reza said:

The trailer has over a million views on YouTube when I just checked.

How many Shia videos of any kind get that accolade? Most barely crack a thousand. That’s suspicious to me, considering how YouTube works.

There might be another explanation. There are thousands of videos telling people to boycott this movie. You know how human nature works; if you tell them to boycott something, they'll just get curious.

Also, there is no such publicity as bad publicity.

Edit: not thousands of videos; rather, a general buzz on social media telling people to boycott it. Also, the comments on some of the videos are interesting; some shia are telling people to boycott it because maraji' forbid it; others are replying "my marja' has no comment, so it's fine."

Edited June 7, 2022 by Hameedeh
typo

[Cool]

If any gevernment found the movie controversial and see it as potential to cause fitna, they are free to ban the movie. 

Salman Rushdi wrote a book and it is banned in majority of Muslim countries. What else! One may also expect to see a fatwa against the writer/producer/director of this movie. 

Secondly, majority of people are not really interested in history and what happened in the past. There are no caliphs now & there are apparently no Imam living among us. While Sunni & Shia do hold a different historical narrative from so long and they are managed to keep peaceful co-existence. 

One has every right to reject the historical narrative presented in the movie like most people reject the book of Sulaym bin Qays.  So I don't see any reason why the launch of this movies is becoming an issue here! 

 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Cool

[Sirius_Bright]

On 1/1/2021 at 10:26 PM, Reza said:

The trailer has over a million views on YouTube when I just checked.

How many Shia videos of any kind get that accolade? Most barely crack a thousand. That’s suspicious to me, considering how YouTube works.

It depends on production house, marketing and the YouTube channel it is uploaded on. The YouTube channel FilmSelect Trailer has 3.75 million subscribers while the video still has only 1.5 million views.