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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why do ahle sunnah believe hazrath Abu talib wasn't a Muslim?

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On 12/21/2020 at 6:38 PM, smma said:

He is one the most respected and high held figures in islam, right?

Yes he was. But they(Sunni) have hadith which they believe to be authentic that say he never accepted Islam.

The descendants of Abu Talib and the Progeny of our Prophet testify to his beleif. (That should be sufficient)

That being said even if he wasn't it takes nothing away from the high level of Imam Ali.

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Yes, but he unfortunately died as a non-Muslim. There were verses revealed concerning him - such as in Surah Tawbah and Surah al-Qasas. He tried to guide him to accept Islam before his death, but he w

Only the ignorant ones say it because it is what their molvi told them. When we read about Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) his early days and that of his elders, we find that Hz. Abu Talib

Brothers and Sisters have to understand that the only reason some people call Abu Talib((عليه السلام)) an 'unbeliever' and that 'he died a kafir' is to degrade Imam Ali((عليه السلام)). Then they can g

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6 hours ago, Warilla said:

Yes he was. But they(Sunni) have hadith which they believe to be authentic that say he never accepted Islam.

The descendants of Abu Talib and the Progeny of our Prophet testify to his beleif. (That should be sufficient)

A hadith like that is not sufficient at all while there is a verse in Quran like this:

أَلَمْ يَجِدْكَ يَتِيمًا فَآوَى

93:6 Has He not found thee an orphan, and given thee shelter? 

Has Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) attributed the act of disbelievers to Himself?

Here in the above verse, the act of Hazrat Abdul Muttalib (عليه السلام) and Hazrat Abu Talib (عليه السلام) has been owned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as His act. 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Cool said:

A hadith like that is not sufficient at all while there is a verse in Quran like this:

أَلَمْ يَجِدْكَ يَتِيمًا فَآوَى

93:6 Has He not found thee an orphan, and given thee shelter? 

Has Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) attributed the act of disbelievers to Himself?

Here in the above verse, the act of Hazrat Abdul Muttalib (عليه السلام) and Hazrat Abu Talib (عليه السلام) has been owned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as His act. 

 

 

To be play the devil's advocate here, they can bring up certain refutations. For example, Musa ((عليه السلام)) was given shelter in Firaun's own palace, and was brought up there.

Also, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Zayd ibn Haritha ((رضي الله عنه)) were given refuge in an orchard owned by disbelievers and served by their Christian slave, after the Event at Taif.

 

There are answers to these objections, but I still think that my point relating to 2:221 holds weight. Why wasn't Bibi Fatima bint Asad ((عليه السلام)) divorced from Abu Talib ((عليه السلام)) after the revelation of this verse?  She is unanimously considered to be a Muslim in all sects. The Prophet is recorded performing her funeral rights.

 

The main obstacle that most sunnis face in accepting Abu Talib's iman is that they'll have to go against ahadith in Bukhari/Muslim. Even someone like Engineer Mirza, when faced with the question of Bukhari/Muslim's absolute authenticity, said, "You might as well start questioning the authenticity of the Quran, if you question these". It's a touchy subject.

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41 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

For example, Musa ((عليه السلام)) was given shelter in Firaun's own palace, and was brought up there.

Thank you for playing that role and allowing me to further explain my point.

Fir'on's act of giving shelter to Musa (عليه السلام) was not owned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to Himself:

وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَى أُمِّ مُوسَى أَنْ أَرْضِعِيهِ فَإِذَا خِفْتِ عَلَيْهِ فَأَلْقِيهِ فِي الْيَمِّ وَلَا تَخَافِي وَلَا تَحْزَنِي إِنَّا رَادُّوهُ إِلَيْكِ وَجَاعِلُوهُ مِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ

28:7 And so, [when he was born,] We inspired [thus] the mother of Moses: Suckle him [for a time], and then, when thou hast cause to fear for him, cast him into the river, and have no fear and do not grieve - for We shall restore him to thee, and shall make him one of Our message-bearers!

What has been promised by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is highlighted in above verse. 

وَقَالَتِ امْرَأَتُ فِرْعَوْنَ قُرَّتُ عَيْنٍ لِّي وَلَكَ لَا تَقْتُلُوهُ عَسَىٰ أَن يَنفَعَنَا أَوْ نَتَّخِذَهُ وَلَدًا وَهُمْ لَا يَشْعُرُونَ

28:9 And Firon's wife said: A refreshment of the eye to me and to you; do not slay him; maybe he will be useful to us, or we may take him for a son; and they did not perceive.
(English - Shakir)

They did not perceive that the boy is the one which will challenge the authority of Fir'on. This verse has highlighted that the Fir'on not slayed Musa (عليه السلام) because of the suggestion of his wife. And Qur'an is itself proof that she was a mo'minah.

On the other hand, Abu Talib (عليه السلام) was well aware of the fact that his nephew is a Prophet. He was not even surprised when Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) proclaimed his status of Prophethood. 

59 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Also, the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Zayd ibn Haritha ((رضي الله عنه)) were given refuge in an orchard owned by disbelievers and served by their Christian slave, after the Event at Taif.

Again, we have no verse in Qur'an to suggest that the act of disbeliever's giving shelter to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was owned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in a manner of attributing their act as His own act.

What has been owned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is given here:

 وَمَا رَمَيْتَ إِذْ رَمَيْتَ وَلَـكِنَّ اللّهَ رَمَى 

8:17

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُبَايِعُونَكَ إِنَّمَا يُبَايِعُونَ اللَّهَ يَدُ اللَّهِ فَوْقَ أَيْدِيهِمْ

48:10

وَوَجَدَكَ عَائِلًا فَأَغْنَى

93:8 

 

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

A hadith like that is not sufficient at all while there is a verse in Quran

 

Be careful when interpreting Qur'an.

Do you have a hadith from the Prophet or Ahlulbayt to confirm this is proof of HZ Abu Talibs beleif.

Reason I say this is forced interpretation can get you in trouble.

Eg. Looking after orphans is not a article of beleif.

Also:

And the one from Egypt who bought him said to his wife, "Make his residence comfortable. Perhaps he will benefit us, or we will adopt him as a son." And thus, We established Joseph in the land that We might teach him the interpretation of events. And Allah is predominant over His affair, but most of the people do not know. 12:21

Surah Yusuf is chronological aseries of verses explains how Nabi Yusuf was saved from the well then was in the house of Zuleika and her husband.

As far as I know no one has used this to say would Allah establish his prophet in the land through disbelievers.

im not saying you can't use it as evidence but be careful as unless u have a hadith from Ahlulbayt or Rasool. 

You start to put conditions on Allah.

Eg. can Allah use disbelievers for shelter would Allah use disbelievers for shelter etc.

so be careful of forced interpretation. And stick to the outward/simple meaning untill you have proof for your deeper meaning.

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1 hour ago, Warilla said:

Do you have a hadith from the Prophet or Ahlulbayt to confirm this is proof of HZ Abu Talibs beleif.

Do you think we accept him as believer for no reason? 

I hope you know something about عام الحزن. Do you think that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) grieved on the death of a kafir? And why did he even grieved when there are verses like these in Qur'an:

مَا كَانَ لِلنَّبِيِّ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَنْ يَسْتَغْفِرُوا لِلْمُشْرِكِينَ وَلَوْ كَانُوا أُولِي قُرْبَىٰ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمْ أَنَّهُمْ أَصْحَابُ الْجَحِيمِ { 

9:113

According to the hadith of Bukhari, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) told that the toes of Abu Talib (عليه السلام) will be in Hell, this hadith makes it clear that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was well aware that Abu Talib (عليه السلام) is from اصحاب الجحيم (na'uzobillah). So did the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) disobeyed the above command of Allah by observing the whole year for grieving on the death of a kafir?

Isn't it alone sufficient to realize the fact that Abu Talib (عليه السلام) is a believer?

1 hour ago, Warilla said:

Reason I say this is forced interpretation can get you in trouble.

If you just look at the verse you will realize that the divine protection/shelter mentioned in it was in the form of Abdul Muttalib (عليه السلام) & Abu Talib (عليه السلام). What I was just referring to is the fact that whatever & whoever was appeared as that protection or shelter, it was owned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in words فَآوَى

 (أَوَى) means to give shelter. So Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentions the He sheltered Isa (عليه السلام) & his mother:

وَجَعَلْنَا ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ آيَةً وَآوَيْنَاهُمَا إِلَىٰ رَبْوَةٍ ذَاتِ قَرَارٍ وَمَعِينٍ

23:50 And We made the son of Marium and his mother a sign, and We gave them a shelter on a lofty ground having meadows and springs.
(English - Shakir)

And He has also said this:

وَاذْكُرُوا إِذْ أَنتُمْ قَلِيلٌ مُّسْتَضْعَفُونَ فِي الْأَرْضِ تَخَافُونَ أَن يَتَخَطَّفَكُمُ النَّاسُ فَآوَاكُمْ وَأَيَّدَكُم بِنَصْرِهِ وَرَزَقَكُم مِّنَ الطَّيِّبَاتِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ

8:26 And remember when you were few, deemed weak in the land, fearing lest people might carry you off by force, but He sheltered you and strengthened you with His aid and gave you of the good things that you may give thanks.
(English - Shakir)

Another verse mentioning the signs of true believer is as under:

وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَهَاجَرُوا وَجَاهَدُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَالَّذِينَ آوَوْا وَنَصَرُوا أُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ حَقًّا ۚ لَهُمْ مَغْفِرَةٌ وَرِزْقٌ كَرِيمٌ

8:74 And (as for) those who believed and fled and struggled hard in Allah's way, and those who gave shelter and helped, these are the believers truly; they shall have forgiveness and honorable provision.

One can cite in the history that Abu Talib (عليه السلام) not only sheltered the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) but also helped him throughout his life, these are the signs of a true believer. So whoever has fabricated that hadith of Bukhari or ahadith similar to it should worry about their own place in hereafter. 

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12 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَهَاجَرُوا وَجَاهَدُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَالَّذِينَ آوَوْا وَنَصَرُوا أُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ حَقًّا ۚ لَهُمْ مَغْفِرَةٌ وَرِزْقٌ كَرِيمٌ

8:74 And (as for) those who believed and fled and struggled hard in Allah's way, and those who gave shelter and helped, these are the believers truly; they shall have forgiveness and honorable provision.

There's another refutation they can bring up to this verse.

They'll say that it refers to the Ansar of Medina who gave shelter and helped the Muhajireen in general.

 

Note: pardon me for questioning our arguments and proofs. I tend to find that challenging them ourselves helps us make our case more airtight. This is the process that lead me firmly back to the Twelver faith around a decade ago; I studied arguments from both sides, challenged the Twelver side with the intention of intellectual discourse, and I often saw that my objections were actually answerable, giving more weight to our proofs.

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25 minutes ago, Cool said:

1)Do you think we accept him as believer for no reason? 

2)8:74 And (as for) those who believed and fled and struggled hard in Allah's way, and those who gave shelter and helped, these are the believers truly; they shall have forgiveness and honorable provision.

 

Brother you are too fast to jump to debate and arguing.

I also believe Hz Abu Talib was a believer. 

1) My point was only to ask if you have specific hadith that this verse prooved the beleif of Hz Abu Talib

Eg ........(masoom) was asked about the verse then they go on to say it is about the beleif of Abu Talib

Or some one ask a masoom regarding the beleif of Abu Talib and then they quote this verse.

2) I believe this verse and verses before and after are regarding jihad and muhajiroon and ansar.

This is why I asked for hadith to support your tafseer. 

I wasn't saying your tafseer is wrong.

Again we need to careful of personal and forced interpretation.
 

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1 minute ago, Sabrejet said:

They'll say that it refers to the Ansar of Medina who gave shelter and helped the Muhajireen in general.

Thank you once again for raising question.

Just look at the verse first. It is mentioning two groups:

a) those who believe, and fled & strived in the way of Allah

b) those who sheltered & helped

Interestingly, "to believe" is not put as a condition for the group b. Their act of sheltering & supporting alone is sufficient for testifying their faith (ايمان). 

One cannot limit this verse by saying that it is revealed only for the Ansar. 

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18 minutes ago, Cool said:

:) No I am not debating brother. Perhaps my aggressive style gave you that impression.

Definitely aggressive, I pray for the health and wellbeing of your keyboard. :grin:

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19 hours ago, Cool said:

Here in the above verse, the act of Hazrat Abdul Muttalib (عليه السلام) and Hazrat Abu Talib (عليه السلام) has been owned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as His act. 

In the light of above posts I like to add the following:

1. Musa (عليه السلام) was grown up in the palace of the Pharoah / Firon, But he was breast feed by her mother by the arrangement made by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). So Hz Musa was taking her mother feed in his early childhood / infancy and after wards by Asiya.

Then the simple question arises here that if Abu Talib (عليه السلام) were  a non muslim then the chief of prophets Muhamamd (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) were going to take an initial food from the house of non muslim? 

The criteria set by quran for tahir / pak food applies to both Musa and our prophets (عليه السلام) as both have been grown on Tahir food. The following verse provides further evidence  that he was grown on the food of True believer who weer Abdul Mutalib and Abu Talib (عليه السلام).:

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying. (33;33)

2.  The quran mentions the following verse for the action to be considered as action by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) :

And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw that He might test the believers with a good test. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing. (8:17)

Here the verse addresses the action of the prophet as action by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). this means the action of the chosen servants and who are closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) may be referred as action by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

4.  "أَلَمْ يَجِدْكَ يَتِيمًا فَآوَى"

93:6 Has He not found thee an orphan, and given thee shelter? 

Here in the above verse, the act of Hazrat Abdul Muttalib (عليه السلام) and Hazrat Abu Talib (عليه السلام) has been owned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as His act."

Now the above statement is quite understandable for mindful ones.

wasalam

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 From the readings above and that l did a hadith search of the Sunnah earlier in the week, l think this is not an issue that can be settled or resolved.

ln short, abu Talib "didn't give a shahada" (as such things are characterized in popular idiom) about lsIam even though the Prophet -(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s. came to his death bed and asked him accept lsIam.

Shi'a hadith say the opposite.

Thanks for the Shi'a citations all.

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The Shias judge the people of the past by the actions made by those people and compare it to the Qur'an as the ultimate criteria.  If the personality of that person passed the criteria set by the Quran until he died then the person is saved.

Whether the case  is for  Hz Abu Talib, Ali (عليه السلام), Khadijah (عليه السلام), Aishah, Abu Bakr, Umar, Othman, Muawiya, Yazid, Khalid Ibnul Walid and so on....

Here is where Sunnis and Shias having loggerheads...defending the personalities of those in the past.

 

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Imam Baqir (a) has said: “The faith of Abu Talib is preferential over the faith of many of the people and Amirul Mumineen (a) commissioned a hajj on behalf of his father.”[8]

C – Imam Sadiq (a) has said: “Abu Talib is much like the People of the Cave, who had faith inwardly but showed disbelief outwardly; due to this they will be rewarded twice over.”[9]

This tradition shows that Abu Talib was forced to hide his faith in order to protect Islam and secure the life of the Prophet (s). This hidden faith does not entail a lesser faith, and in fact, shows a higher level of faith and corresponding reward from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa8578

 

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D – The Imami scholars, as well as the Zaidis, have a consensus that Abu Talib was one of the prominent members of the Muslim community and that on the day that he died, he left this world with faith in God as a Muslim. There has also been a multitude of books and articles written on this matter.[10]

E – Many famous Sunni scholars, as well as all Shia scholars have testified to the faith of Abu Talib. Amongst the Sunni scholars, certain names worthy of mention are as follows: Allamah Barzanji, Sheikh Ibrahim Hanbali, and Ibn Jawzi. Among the Shia scholars, there is Sheikh Rawandi, Sheikh Sadouq, Allamah Kerajakee, Seyed Bin Tawus, Seyed Murtadha, Aminal Islam Tabarsi, Muhamad Baqir Majlesi, Allamah Sheikh Abu Jafar, Ibn Fatal Neyshaboori, and Seyed Abdullah Shabar.[11],[12]

From Above link of Islam quest. 

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On 12/22/2020 at 5:41 PM, Nightclaw said:

He didn't believe in Islam after it came to him. That constitutes him as a disbeliever. It doesn't matter what else he believed in. If he was not a Muslim by the Islamic definition, he was a disbeliever - regardless if he followed Abu Lahab or not.

Quote

Imam al-Baqir (a) says:

"If the faith of Abu Talib is put in one side of a scale and the faith of these people on the other, the faith of Abu Talib will be preferred."[26]

Imam al-Sadiq (a) says:

"Abu Talib is like the Seven Sleepers (Ashab al-Kahf) who hid their faith and declared themselves as polytheists and God gave them their reward twice."[27]

In another hadith he tells Yunus b. Nubata:

"The enemies of Allah are lying. He is a companion of the prophets, and the truthful, and the martyrs, and the righteous, and the excellent companions are they."[28]

Someone wrote to Imam al-Rida (a) that he had doubt in the faith of Abu Talib. Imam al-Rida (a) wrote to him the verse 115 of the Sura al-Nisa':

"But whoever defies the Apostle, after the guidance has become manifest to him, and follows a way other than that of the faithful, We shall abandon him to his devices and We shall make him enter hell, and it is an evil destination." (Quran 4:115)[29] And continued: "Then if you do not confess to the faith of Abu Talib, your destination is the hell."[30]

Imam al-Hasan al-'Askari (a) says:

Allah told his Prophet (s):"I helped you with two group of followers: First the followers who helped you secretly, and second the followers who helped you openly. As for who helped you secretly, their eminent and the most virtuous is your uncle, Abu Talib, and as for who helped you openly, their eminent and the most virtuous is his son, 'Ali b. Abi Talib (a)." Imam Hasan al-'Askari continues: "indeed, Abu Talib was like Mu'min Al Fir'awn (the faithful of the family of Pharaoh) who had hidden his faith."<refIbn Maʿadd, al-Ḥujja ʿalā l-dhāhib, p. 362.</ref>
https://en.wikishia.net/view/Faith_of_Abu_Talib
Quote

Al-Dahdah Hadith

Also a hadith named "Dahdah" is cited:

Someone mentioned Abu Talib before the Prophet (s), and the Prophet (s) said: "hopefully my shafa'a (intercession) will be beneficial for him in the Day of Judgment, he will be placed between two waters boiling by fire, which reaches his ankle and from there boils his brain."[7]

Answer

  1. Mughira b. Abi Shu'ba narrated this hadith and he -as stated by al-'Allama al-Majlisi- was famous for his animosity and hatred of Banu Hashim and especially 'Ali b. Abi Talib (a) and his fisq (lewdness) is obvious.[8]
  2. Assuming that Abu Talib was a polytheist, hoping shafa'a for him doesn't have any meaning, because it's clear that shafa'a doesn't include polytheists.[9]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Faith_of_Abu_Talib

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