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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why do ahle sunnah believe hazrath Abu talib wasn't a Muslim?

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

As a generalized observation, there are cases of people dis-inheriting their own children, so it is not, as writ, de facto exclusionary that this relative rejected lsIam,

Yeah. I would agree and such relatives exist in history.

For example, the uncle of Prophet  Ibrahim (عليه السلام). 

Son of Noah etc.

But their role in serving the great Prophets were little to nothing. 

Azar never defeneded Ibrahim or his faith. WhaTV he did was just nourished him. He even tried to change his faith. But actually this question falls back to the ones who claim 'Hz Abu Talib was a disbeliever'. Question is that 'What was the purpose of Abu talib in nourishing a child about whom he knew that he never believed in idols?' why Abu Talib's own son joined his cousin and becane arguably the first to accept Islam and Abu Talib just stood watching?

Imagining myself as an infidel father in ignorant deserts of Arabia, I would have buried my son alive if he would do what Ali (عليه السلام) and Jafar (عليه السلام) did in the presence of Abu Talib (عليه السلام)? 

History can be written to falsify the truth but what should one write to refute common sense.

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Yes, but he unfortunately died as a non-Muslim. There were verses revealed concerning him - such as in Surah Tawbah and Surah al-Qasas. He tried to guide him to accept Islam before his death, but he w

Only the ignorant ones say it because it is what their molvi told them. When we read about Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) his early days and that of his elders, we find that Hz. Abu Talib

Brothers and Sisters have to understand that the only reason some people call Abu Talib((عليه السلام)) an 'unbeliever' and that 'he died a kafir' is to degrade Imam Ali((عليه السلام)). Then they can g

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13 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Moral: No one becomes a muslim by merely reciting a Kalma/Shahada.

If you like to see in addition to the other reference material presented,  the Abu Talib (عليه السلام) reciting the kalma at his death bed the following is also presented:

From sunni source:

"When Abu Talib's time of death approached, he moved his lips. Al-Abbas moved towards him and then said to the prophet (saws), 'O son of my brother! Abu Talib has recited the kalima that you wanted him to recite; The prophet said: "Thanks to Allah for He guided you". ~(Tarikh Abul-Fida, Vol. 1 p 120)

 

wasalam

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13 hours ago, dragonxx said:

 

@Mahdavist If I responded to this the way I wanted, I'd get a warning. He not only derailed the topic, but he's continuously being petty and throwing low blows. You moderators are always on me for retaliating, but here you should do something about this before it gets out of hand.

He's not contributing to this in any way other than to ridicule. If I respond with harsh words, the moderators would jump at giving me a warning. Stop this man and his nonsense. If you don't and I respond, there should be no punishment on either side. This isn't his first time doing this, either. 

@notme @starlight

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2 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

From sunni source:

"When Abu Talib's time of death approached, he moved his lips. Al-Abbas moved towards him and then said to the prophet (saws), 'O son of my brother! Abu Talib has recited the kalima that you wanted him to recite; The prophet said: "Thanks to Allah for He guided you". ~(Tarikh Abul-Fida, Vol. 1 p 120)

'That is Dhaif' (says a Nasibi) 

Lol

Thanks brother anyways.

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7 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

From sunni source:

"When Abu Talib's time of death approached, he moved his lips. Al-Abbas moved towards him and then said to the prophet (saws), 'O son of my brother! Abu Talib has recited the kalima that you wanted him to recite; The prophet said: "Thanks to Allah for He guided you". ~(Tarikh Abul-Fida, Vol. 1 p 120)

Go to the page itself and do just 10 minutes worth of research and you'll find that this is a fabrication/weak. 

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30 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

Nightclaw is very entertaining; when presented with matched fingerprints, he the type of guy to say 'prove it is a match by breaking down the coding of the program which detected the match' lol.
Would be the worst detective on the planet... "detective, as you can see in this footage, it captured the killer shooting the victim, and we interviewed the 100 live witnesses you see in the background of the footage, they all attest to the same thing" - nightclaw: "prove the evidence the killer shot the victim"

 

Not interested in truth, just sowing discord, then quick to flee like his master when cornered. Like you're really gonna say BOTH sunni and shia books have no evidence that Sayedna Abu Talib was muslim? You read all the hadith literature cover to cover with your flawless (non-existent) arabic? Lol... But really, I appreciate the laughs, you should consider clown college, you'd make bank

 

You can message him privately this has nothing to do with the topic

Nor I'm defending him...even if someone wrote something about me like that publicly .. I wouldn't appreciate it

This behaviour is childish

If we are discussing on this sensible topic we should behave maturely

No offense

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13 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

Go to the page itself and do just 10 minutes worth of research and you'll find that this is a fabrication/weak. 

Yes when there is no evidence for justifying an argument then arguments of opposite side , their evidences and proofs are either daif, fake or fabrications. I admire these thoughts as these make me laugh endlessly. 

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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1 minute ago, Muslim2010 said:

Yes when there is no evidence for justifying an argument then opposite side arguments, evidences and proofs are either daif, fake or fabrications. I admire these thoughts as these make me laugh endlessly. 

If you don't believe me, go look at the book yourself. There are no chain of narrations and nothing is mentioned like this before. Is it authentic, despite being hundreds of years after the death of Abu Talib? Is that how our sciences work?

I'm not here to convince you. You're not here to discuss or actually understand, you're here to respond.

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13 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

I'm not here to convince you. You're not here to discuss or actually understand, you're here to respond.

I am not here to respond your every irrelevant word, i have mentioned my view in the thread with links for evidences from sunni references. 

No more words and time i like to waste for such response. wasalam

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13 hours ago, Zainuu said:

I have actually not got any answer up until now.

What was the faith and principles of Abu Talib if not Islam?

Who was his god?

Why he protected an orphan who was not even his son?

From where do we learn such anazing morals?

Why he didn't stop Ali (عليه السلام) or Jafar (عليه السلام)?

If he didn't believe in anything and was just a 'Happy go lucky' kinda person, why he beared so much from the idolaters instead of just simply handing over the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to the enemies?

If you say he didn't recite salaat, well in Makkah, how many did? If you say he didn't fast. Again the same question.

And who can actualy be believed as a witness. 

Brother do not expect any single answer for the questions mentioned. even we do not have yet any evidence from some one blaming Abu Talib (عليه السلام) as non muslim (Muad Allah).

wasalam

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13 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

If I responded to this the way I wanted, I'd get a warning. He not only derailed the topic, but he's continuously being petty and throwing low blows. You moderators are always on me for retaliating, but here you should do something about this before it gets out of hand.

He's not contributing to this in any way other than to ridicule. If I respond with harsh words, the moderators would jump at giving me a warning. Stop this man and his nonsense. If you don't and I respond, there should be no punishment on either side. This isn't his first time doing this, either. 

 

13 hours ago, Ain-Al Hayat said:

You can message him privately this has nothing to do with the topic

Nor I'm defending him...even if someone wrote something about me like that publicly .. I wouldn't appreciate it

This behaviour is childish

If we are discussing on this sensible topic we should behave maturely

No offense

Firstly, there is a contribution; i am calling him out to back his claim that there isn't a SINGLE hadith in BOTH sunni AND shia literature that states Abu Talib is a muslim

 

(Points 2-4 removed by moderator)

Fifthly, back to my first point which was conveniently dodged, back your claim there is no single hadith by listing all of the literature you have critically reviewed, otherwise don't make false claims.

Edited by Mahdavist
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16 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

My proof is that all historical documents from both of our sides never depict him as a Muslim. He never accepted Islam. He never prayed. He never submitted to Allah. He never fasted. My proof is that there is nothing indicative that he was a Muslim. Nothing from our books or yours. Now it is upon you to refute my claim.

And here, in kindness, i provide the quote.

 

Edited by Mahdavist
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14 minutes ago, dragonxx said:

Firstly, there is a contribution; i am calling him out to back his claim that there isn't a SINGLE hadith in BOTH sunni AND shia literature that states Abu Talib is a muslim

Your way was provocative ..but anyways my intention was to keep peace between you guys..and I don't know how you guys argued in the past 

So my assumption was based on what I just read now 

We have no right to force someone to believe on certain or on anything ...but to provide authentic references so maybe the other person can correct there way of thinking

Once again my apologies 

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@Zainuu indeed, thank you for adding additional magnanimous claims to address. It's crazy all these hypocritical comments towards a revered figure for the Shia, without a single hadith that would be hujjah upon us.

If one were to even suggest ibn affan wasn't a muslim on a salafichat it would be an immediate ban, so be thankful @Nightclawthat you are still posting, and produce evidence rather than saying "my proof is there is nothing indicative"

2 minutes ago, Ain-Al Hayat said:

Once again my apologies 

you did nothing wrong, i was just clarifying my position, therefore there is no need to apologize bro

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4 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

That's a new take on things. If we take this view, then instead of 1.4 billion sunnis, we have, what, around 18 million (considering ~1 percent Muslims in the world are wahabbis/salafis/ahle hadith )? The rest are misguided sects? Brother, just think about this implication for a second.

Anyways, if we take a true sunni to be someone who mainly follows the Quran, Bukhari, and Muslim, along with scholars who stay within the guidelines of their teachings, then neither Barelvi, Deobandi, Ahle Hadith, or Wahhabi are true sunnis.

You might ask "what's your point"? Well, my point is, consider for a moment challenging and questioning your own beliefs. Or in short, "Food for thought".

:salam:

I love it that Sunnis are now an extreme minority of Muslims. 

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17 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

A big irony here:

Father of Muawiya was a 'Muslim'. Father of Ali (عليه السلام) was not. 

Shame on those who believe in this.

Those words just brought tears in my eyes.

Hazrat Abu Talib AS ..his contribution and sacrifices to Islam is being neglected and only thing what matters is if he said Shahada ..like seriously???

The person who believed in and protected our prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) loved him like his own son... And devoted his life to Islam ..it's unbelievable how it is easy for some people to accuse him of being Kafir (Nauzbillah) 

I'm shocked and saddened to see our Ummah has crossed their limits and there is no fear of Day of judgment.

 

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13 minutes ago, Ain-Al Hayat said:

The person who believed in and protected our prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) loved him like his own son... And devoted his life to Islam ..it's unbelievable how it is easy for some people to accuse him of being Kafir (Nauzbillah) 

And the one who fought the most against the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is termed as a Muslim and is in Jannah.

Wow Humanity. Wow Muslims. Just wow.

This can be a nice story for a screenplay but not history offcourse.

Also,

Khalid ibn Waleed called the 'sword of Allah' while we attribute this to Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Well, Khalid was in Uhad killing the muslims while Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was the one alone standing with some devout muslims standing to protect The Holy Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Again, this hypocrisy amazes me.

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5 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

He wasn't a Muslim nor a believer. Provide evidence for this. 

Yourel whole argument is based on one thing that no where in the history it was recorded that he was Muslim. 

If he wasn't a Muslim shouldn't there be evidence of him being a Kafir then ?. So if he was really a kafir why did the prophet spend a lot of his lifetime under the protection of a kafir ? Why would he even live with someone who doesn't accept his teaching or doesn't accept him as the messenger of God ?

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1 minute ago, Hassu93 said:

You're whole argument is based on one thing that no where in the history it was recorded that he was Muslim. 

Yes. You want me to prove something doesn't exist that doesn't exist. It's the equivalent of you asking me to prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist.

2 minutes ago, Hassu93 said:

If he wasn't a Muslim shouldn't there be evidence of him being a Kafir then ?. So if he was really a kafir why did the prophet spend a lot of his lifetime under the protection of a kafir ?

All evidence points to him being a disbeliever. The only authentic evidence is what can be provided. This quote that they brought from the Tarikh Abulfida is not authentic. It first arises in the 10th/11th century with no prior chains mentioned like it. It has no narrators thus no chain of transmission therefore rejected. It literally comes from thin air. That's not how narrations work. If they pop up from the blue, we don't accept them no matter how much they are for or against us. It has to have a chain of transmission and authentic and trustworthy narrators.

That was still his uncle, at the end of the day. He loved him and protected him from everyone else when they tried to assassinate and harm him and his companions. You are forgetting that the Messenger became a Messenger of Allah at the age of 40. He preached for 10 years until Abu Talib died. He left Mecca with Abu Bakr 3 years after this death. However, prior to this, he was being protected by his uncle Abu Talib because he loved his nephew. They are still family, at the end of the day.

He wasn't at the protection of a disbeliever. He was at the protection of Allah. It takes a long time to explain, really. The chronology of events from when he was a kid until he got married to Khadijah would take me a few hours explaining this. I think you should read about it yourself. I could give you things to read so as to answer your question and clarify further.

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There has yet to be a single shred of "proof" given by @Nightclaw , only empty claims, he did not even bother to post one of the fabricated hadiths about Abu Talib ((عليه السلام)) from bukhari, not one reference, nothing.

I wonder if he even knows what our books are and if he will provide reference for us, like we do for him (to which he replies don't use my books, or falsely accuse you don't know arabic so it's not proof). 

 

22 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

Bring an actual scholar.

22 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

I could give you some books to read concerning this. 

19 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

I want their names to verify if they're actually scholars.

19 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

Stop quoting our books, please.

18 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

Regardless, provide evidence. 

18 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

These aren't scholars for us. 

16 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

Provide evidence for this.

16 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

if you knew anything about your own history

13 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

If you don't believe me, go look at the book yourself.

13 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

Is it authentic

13 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

I'm not here to convince you.

 

Edited by Mahdavist
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9 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

Then Abu Bakr and 'Umar were certainly Muslims and the best of them, by this definition of yours. 

We never did any takfir or denied Abu Bakr and Umar being muslims. Though, they were niether better nor best but they were without an inch of a doubt. 

It's you who is doing Takfir and saying that their are no historical records for the one who did one of the greatest Jihad and that was to protect and save the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

I am not here to play the blame games. But my argument is simple. 

With regards to praying and fasting, well, how many muslims prayed and fasted in Mecca before Hijrah? 

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Guest Eman e Abu Talib (عليه السلام).

In Ahl e Sunnah there are different opinions about the faith of Abu Talib (عليه السلام). I am from Ahl e Sunnah wa jam'at and I am completely clear on the faith of Abu Talib (عليه السلام) that he was muslim and Companion of Prophet Muhammad SAWW. I would like to introduce complete books written on the faith of Abu Talib (عليه السلام) by the Ahl e Sunnah scholars, Sheikh Ahmed bin Zaini Dehlan Makki (رضي الله عنه) written book names as Asni ul matalib fi Nij'at e Abi Talib (رضي الله عنه)., Allama Saim Chishti (رضي الله عنه) writtien book on Eman e Abu Talib (عليه السلام), Allama Atta Muhammad Chishti Bandialvi (رضي الله عنه) and Saeed Shah Kazmi (رضي الله عنه) have written breifings on that book. The personality like Khawaja Qamar ud din Sialvi (رضي الله عنه) and Peer Muhammad Karam shah Al Azhari (رضي الله عنه) have the same opinion on Emaan e Abu Talib (عليه السلام).

Sheikh ul Islam Dr Muhammad Tahir ul Qadri H.A has lectures on Emaan e Abu Talib (عليه السلام) and also he has written book on this topic which has not gotten published yet.

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13 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

@Mahdavist If I responded to this the way I wanted, I'd get a warning. He not only derailed the topic, but he's continuously being petty and throwing low blows. You moderators are always on me for retaliating, but here you should do something about this before it gets out of hand.

He's not contributing to this in any way other than to ridicule. If I respond with harsh words, the moderators would jump at giving me a warning. Stop this man and his nonsense. If you don't and I respond, there should be no punishment on either side. This isn't his first time doing this, either. 

@notme @starlight

I have already told you that we have a report function for this purpose. Please use 

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Imam Jafer al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said:

While Imam ‘Ali (عليه السلام) was sitting with Ruhbah in Kufa, surrounded by a group, a man stood up and said: ‘ Commander of the Believers, you are in this great position at which God has placed you while your father is suffering in hell. ‘ The Imam replied, saying: Be silent. May God disfigure your mouth. By the One Who sent Muhammad (S) with the truth, if my father intercedes for every sinner on the face of the earth, God would accept his intercession.

al-Ihtijaj, by al-Tabarsi, v1, p341

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14 hours ago, Zainuu said:

We never did any takfir or denied Abu Bakr and Umar being muslims. Though, they were niether better nor best but they were without an inch of a doubt.

We actually believe that the enemies of Bibi Pak died disbelievers. We have ahadith from Imam Jafar in our literature where we are forbidden to even doubt their kufr. Someone who doubts it in the slightest won't get her intercession; this is something that took me a long time to discover on my own.

We aren't supposed to mention it in public though, for various reasons. Not necessarily because of Taqiyyah, but rather to avoid spreading discord and fracturing the already divided ummah. Also, there is a hadith by Imam Jafar that if we curse their personalities in front of them, and they curse ours in return, the sin will be upon our head.

I find that I occasionally have to break this rule though, when some people just won't shut up about the Iman of Abu Talib.

The fatwas from Khamenei and others are widely misinterpreted by shias themselves. They don't tell us to abandon tabarra, or compromise our aqeeda. Their explanations are actually given on the side by learned scholars who actually know the background for these edicts.

 

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52 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

We actually believe that the enemies of Bibi Pak died disbelievers. We have ahadith from Imam Jafar in our literature where we are forbidden to even doubt their kufr. Someone who doubts it in the slightest won't get her intercession; this is something that took me a long time to discover on my own.

We aren't supposed to mention it in public though, for various reasons. Not necessarily because of Taqiyyah, but rather to avoid spreading discord and fracturing the already divided ummah. Also, there is a hadith by Imam Jafar that if we curse their personalities in front of them, and they curse ours in return, the sin will be upon our head.

I find that I occasionally have to break this rule though, when some people just won't shut up about the Iman of Abu Talib.

The fatwas from Khamenei and others are widely misinterpreted by shias themselves. They don't tell us to abandon tabarra, or compromise our aqeeda. Their explanations are actually given on the side by learned scholars who actually know the background for these edicts.

 

No doubt that their is a curse on all the enemies of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام).

And no doubt that their are three categories of disbelief:

1. Mushrikeen

2. Munkereen

3. Munafiqeen

The last one is the worst of all.

No doubt that their is a Hadith from The Holy Prophet about the three categories of Sahaba. Out of which one is of hypocrites. About them even their is a detail mentioned that they will try to come near Kauthar but the angels will take them away and when The Holy Prophet will see them he will say, 'Ashabi Ashabi' (my companions). But when Angels will say that they changed the faith after Rasoolullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), he will condemn them and ask angels to take them away. 

Even in Ziyarat of Ashura if you read, curses are on all those who hold enmity against Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) and their supporters and their followers.

But but, Imam al Baqir (عليه السلام) says in his hadith to try to include more and more people into faith rather than excluding. 

In the Holy Qur'an, their are more than one verse that talks about unity and against discord. So, I think we should give Unity a priority.

Regarding the enemiea of AhlulBayt (عليه السلام).

May Allah's curse and the curse of Messenger and curse of everyone who is capable of cursing be upon Yazid, his Father, his grabdfather, Marwan, Walid, Umar ibn Saad, Shimr, ibn Ziyad and everyone who had enmity with the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) and who inflicted harm upon them.

Curse be on those who followed the way of Banu Umayya afterwards.

This is not even a matter of Taqiyya. Those issues that are highly debatable should be dealt with constructive criticism and not curse or Takfir. We curse Muawiya because unanimously he is known and condemned for his acts with some exceptions. 

 

So, we must refrain from cursing the three and Aisha specifically. 

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:salam:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَهَاجَرُوا وَجَاهَدُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّـهِ وَالَّذِينَ آوَوا وَّنَصَرُوا أُولَـٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ حَقًّا ۚ لَّهُم مَّغْفِرَةٌ وَرِزْقٌ كَرِيمٌ ﴿٧٤

8:74

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