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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why do ahle sunnah believe hazrath Abu talib wasn't a Muslim?

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4 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

So, tell me what Abu Talib believed in, if it wasn't Islam?

Prove this that why he didn't follow the way of Abu Lahab (for example)??

If you claim disbelief for him, then prove it.

He didn't believe in Islam after it came to him. That constitutes him as a disbeliever. It doesn't matter what else he believed in. If he was not a Muslim by the Islamic definition, he was a disbeliever - regardless if he followed Abu Lahab or not.

5 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

If you claim disbelief for him, then prove it.

He didn't become Muslim. He isn't recorded to fast, pray, and the basic things a Muslim should do. Yes, he helped Islam and aided the Messenger to a great extent. However, he did not become Muslim. Nothing in our books suggest he did. Nothing. 

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Yes, but he unfortunately died as a non-Muslim. There were verses revealed concerning him - such as in Surah Tawbah and Surah al-Qasas. He tried to guide him to accept Islam before his death, but he w

Only the ignorant ones say it because it is what their molvi told them. When we read about Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) his early days and that of his elders, we find that Hz. Abu Talib

Brothers and Sisters have to understand that the only reason some people call Abu Talib((عليه السلام)) an 'unbeliever' and that 'he died a kafir' is to degrade Imam Ali((عليه السلام)). Then they can g

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1 hour ago, Guest اللهم صل علی محمد و آل مح said:

Disgusting, such audacity, please do not utter such insolence again. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide you. Forget everything else, even logically it makes no sense that Hazrat Abu Talib, the one who raised the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and who was his strongest supporter and defense against Quraysh left the world without having accepted the truth.  

And it makes no logical sense that people saw the moon split but still rejected the Messenger! It makes no logical sense that they knew the miracle of the Qur'an and still reject Islam! It makes no sense that Abu Lahab saw Jibrīl and a fire amassed for him - and still rejected Islam!

 

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14 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

The truth isn't always mainstream. I could flip the switch and say the same thing for you with regards to Sunni and you being a Shi'a. I don't care how many people tell me something is wrong trying convincing me it's right - wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it and right is right even if nobody is doing it!

Again, outnumbering means nothing. I will say to you that you should consider what we have to say is the truth, considering we outnumber you. Numbers mean nothing. Khalid ibn al-Waleed and 'Umar took down two superpowers with 40,000 odd men maximum. They weren't even well equipped with food, resources or even material. I don't think numbers has to do with anything.

As for this narration, I'm guessing it's Shaytaan's encounter with Abu Huraira. I haven't looked at it, but going off memory, so correct me if I'm wrong. Even if Shaytaan sometimes tell the truth, should we listen to him - DESPITE Allah telling us not to and that he's our clear enemy? No. 

Hmm. I wrote the numbers argument in response to your points that:

1- don't consider these as mainstream sunni scholars

2-trying to paint Barelvis as a minority. To quote a certain firebrand scholar in our country "Ahle Hadith are like salt in flour".

 

As to your point that the minority isn't necessarily wrong, I agree of course, but for different reasons. The Muslims were outnumbered 3:1 in most early battles of Islam after all.

Sunnis aren't exactly as united as you'd like to think. If you make a pie chart, each sunni denomination is around the same size or less than Twelvers. The funny thing is that past scholars have gone as far as to declare the other denominations as kafir. Its a never ending game of a Mexican standoff, where each shooter has more than two guns.

Ayatollah Haydari has a rather interesting view on this topic: if a non Muslim observer accepts all of these absurd takfirs as true, then technically every Muslim in the world is kafir, whether shia or sunni (but that's a topic for another time.)

Another reason I brought up numbers is this: in a lot of threads, you make a stand and pass it off as the majority sunni opinion, when it's often not the case.

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7 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

1- don't consider these mainstream sunni scholars

Correct. 

 

7 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

2-trying to paint Barelvis as a minority. To quote a certain firebrand scholar in our country "Ahle Hadith are like salt in flour".

I'm not sure where you got this from. I inferred the complete opposite, affirming we are the minority. I'm stating that even if these sects are the majority, it doesn't mean that they're correct. Mainstream =/= truth.

7 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Sunnis aren't exactly as united as you'd like to think. If you make a pie chart, each sunni denomination is around the same size or less than Twelvers. The funny thing is that past scholars have gone as far as to declare the other denominations as kafir. Its a never ending game of a Mexican standoff, where each shooter has more than two guns.

I never made this claim to begin with. Nowhere did I state Sunnis are united.

Edit: When I say Sunnis, I use it as an umbrella term  

 

7 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Ayatollah Haydari has a rather interesting view on this topic: if a non Muslim observer accepts all of these absurd takfirs as true, then technically every Muslim in the world is kafir, whether shia or sunni (but that's a topic for another time.)

Nobody is calling them disbelievers. They just aren't part of the Sunnah. This doesn't constitute them being disbelievers, but misguided and erroneous.

7 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Another reason I brought up numbers is this: in a lot of threads, you make a stand and pass it off as the majority sunni opinion, when it's often not the case.

It is the Sunni opinion. Anyone who claims to be Sunni needs to be following the Sunnah. Barelvi aren't. Sufis aren't. Mu'tazilites aren't. These people aren't part of the Sunnah. They are deviated sects. You can claim they are, but that doesn't mean they're part of us. 

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1 hour ago, Guest اللهم صل علی محمد و آل مح said:

Why does that bother you? 

That's not something the Messenger prescribed nor commanded nor performed in his sermons. Anything he did not do, we do not do. 

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13 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

Another reason I brought up numbers is this: in a lot of threads, you make a stand and pass it off as the majority sunni opinion, when it's often not the case.

The outcome of this thread is that majority of the muslims including sunni, sufi, ahle hadees, deobandi  and shia believe that Abu talib (عليه السلام) is a muslim. Though we have some grains of salt for its opposition.

wasalam

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1 minute ago, Nightclaw said:

It is the Sunni opinion. Anyone who claims to be Sunni needs to be following the Sunnah. Barelvi aren't. Sufis aren't. Mu'tazilites aren't. These people aren't part of the Sunnah. They are deviated sects. You can claim they are, but that doesn't mean they're part of us

That's a new take on things. If we take this view, then instead of 1.4 billion sunnis, we have, what, around 18 million (considering ~1 percent Muslims in the world are wahabbis/salafis/ahle hadith )? The rest are misguided sects? Brother, just think about this implication for a second.

Anyways, if we take a true sunni to be someone who mainly follows the Quran, Bukhari, and Muslim, along with scholars who stay within the guidelines of their teachings, then neither Barelvi, Deobandi, Ahle Hadith, or Wahhabi are true sunnis.

You might ask "what's your point"? Well, my point is, consider for a moment challenging and questioning your own beliefs. Or in short, "Food for thought".

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13 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Proof?

You can say that you don't know and it is not recorded anywhere. But the one who protected and helped the real founder of Islam is not  a muslim?? That's absolutely disgusting. 

His proof that he was a Muslim and Islam owes to him is his services to the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and muslims.

Brother you would get any proof except that kalma was not listen by some fellows (who were not muslims at the time of narrating some hadith),  but the growing up of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), protecting him from kufars, saying the Aqad / Nikah at marriage of the prophet and other actions will be dominant from history and narrations. This is all credit of the great personality in islam Abu Talib (عليه السلام).

wasalam

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3 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

The outcome of this thread is that majority of the muslims including sunni, sufi, ahle hadees, deobandi  and shia believe that Abu talib (عليه السلام) is a muslim. Though we have some grains of salt for its opposition.

wasalam

Actually, I'll have to disagree with you here. The majority view of the sunni body is that he died a disbeliever (nauzubillah). However, they also believe this is something that shouldn't/doesn't need to be so openly discussed.

A minority of sunni scholars bring arguments that weaken or refute this view.

Those of the nasibi variety, however, will always bring this topic up, with great relish and enjoyment.

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2 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

So do you consider that this thread is going without any result so far? 

 

Well, so far none of us have really answered the original question, except @Nightclaw, who brought forth genuine reasons supporting the statement of the topic. So yes, so far this thread doesn't have any tangible results :)

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10 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Proof?

You can say that you don't know and it is not recorded anywhere. But the one who protected and helped the real founder of Islam is not  a muslim?? That's absolutely disgusting. 

My proof is that all historical documents from both of our sides never depict him as a Muslim. He never accepted Islam. He never prayed. He never submitted to Allah. He never fasted. My proof is that there is nothing indicative that he was a Muslim. Nothing from our books or yours. Now it is upon you to refute my claim.

It's not recorded of him being a Muslim, but he was certainly depicted as someone who was a disbeliever. You calling it disgusting is showing you're incapable of using logic and immediately using ad hominem because your ability to reason has gone and is very limited. I am telling you that from what is present, Abu Talib was not a Muslim. He did not believe. Call it what you will, the truth is very disgusting because it's very bitter.

11 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

His proof that he was a Muslim and Islam owes to him is his services to the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and muslims.

Then Abu Bakr and 'Umar were certainly Muslims and the best of them, by this definition of yours. 

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4 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

My proof is that all historical documents from both of our sides never depict him as a Muslim. He never accepted Islam. He never prayed. He never submitted to Allah. He never fasted. My proof is that there is nothing indicative that he was a Muslim. Nothing from our books or yours. Now it is upon you to refute my claim.

It's not recorded of him being a Muslim, but he was certainly depicted as someone who was a disbeliever.

Umm, no. Shia scholars, and our authentic traditions, are unanimous in calling him (and the Prophet's direct ancestors up to Adam ((عليه السلام))), true believers.

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11 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

That's a new take on things. If we take this view, then instead of 1.4 billion sunnis, we have, what, around 18 million (considering ~1 percent Muslims in the world are wahabbis/salafis/ahle hadith )? The rest are misguided sects? Brother, just think about this implication for a second.

Stop saying Wahabbi. It is an insult to Allah. You're using his name as an insult and derogatory term. You can continue if you'd like, but stop using Allah's name in vain and as an insult. If you want to say anything, say Sunni.
We follow the Sunnah, not Muhammad ibn Abdulwahhab. It's not only incorrect, but berating the name of Allah. You're a respectable person and I respect you, mainly for your manners. If you cease to have any and continue to use a term that is derogatory to Allah, I'm afraid that goes out the window immediately. You're much better than that.

As for the number, I'm not sure where you get that from. There's at least 20-30 million Salafis in Nigeria alone, with others being Shi'a (minority) or people of innovation (majority).Salafiyya is growing in the Middle East and here where I live. It's also growing in places like Texas and in the Northern part of America. I don't understand where you got these numbers from.

19 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Anyways, if we take a true sunni to be someone who mainly follows the Quran, Bukhari, and Muslim, along with scholars who stay within the guidelines of their teachings, then neither Barelvi, Deobandi, Ahle Hadith, or Wahhabi are true sunnis.

This isn't the definition of a Sunni. The definition of a Sunni is someone who follows the Sunnah. The Sunnah is found through narrations and through what the first three generations of Islam understood and did, providing it is what the Messenger did and came with. You can make that argument, but I could bring you statements upon statements that have yet to be refuted concerning what a Sunni is.

21 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

You might ask "what's your point"? Well, my point is, consider for a moment challenging and questioning your own beliefs. Or in short, "Food for thought".

I questioned my beliefs way before I was here. That is one of the reasons I learned the language of the Bible - OT and OT - aside from debating. I wanted to see if it was the truth. It's the reason why I looked upon history to see if things matched and correlated. It's the reason I used to listen to other sides. I have questioned my beliefs. Questioning is a pastime. Nobody has good arguments here. It's either laughing, relying on translation, or giving their explanation of something without attaching the entire thing to fit narratives. That is what I don't do. That isn't what Islam teaches and that isn't what I'll follow. Weak arguments are put forth from people who aren't even students of knowledge and they ridicule and use all of these attacks and continue to be disrespectful (though if I retaliate, I'll get in trouble and they'll walk free, despite them starting it - live of a black man in a nutshell). In all seriousness, I have questioned for years. Everything became crystal clear. The fact that everyone - apart from you, Warilla, a few others - argues from an emotional standpoint and cannot support their sides from deduction that they have no real ability to do shows me what I'm dealing with. The fact that it's more than one person doing the same thing with the same behavior shows me what I need to know.

All in all, I have questioned, but never disbelieved. I will continue to learn more about Islam and everything else I'm interested in. However, I can assure you I have questioned. I spent sleepless nights stressing over a lot out of confusion with what I was studying before the Help of Allah came to me. 

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14 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Umm, no. Shia scholars, and our authentic traditions, are unanimous in calling him (and the Prophet's direct ancestors up to Adam ((عليه السلام))), true believers.

With what evidence? How is he a true believer and based off of what? 

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15 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Well, so far none of us have really answered the original question, except @Nightclaw, who brought forth genuine reasons supporting the statement of the topic.

I think you should read that link which I posted ... I couldn't copy paste it but I'm sure it mentioned every point and is quite easy to understand

35 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Anything he did not do, we do not do. 

Bravo...then please stand to your words

Prophet never accused a Momin of being Non muslim or kafir!

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I request everyone who's taking part to stick to the topic so that the thread doesn't become unnecessarily long. Those who believe he wasn't a muslim can bring reasons for their belief and refutations against those who do, and those who believe he was a Muslim can bring their own reasons and refutations. 

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1 hour ago, Zainuu said:

But the one who protected and helped the real founder of Islam is not  a muslim?? That's absolutely disgusting. 

As a generalized observation, there are cases of people dis-inheriting their own children, so it is not, as writ, de facto exclusionary that this relative rejected lsIam,

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1 hour ago, Sabrejet said:

Sunnis aren't exactly as united as you'd like to think.

Neither are Shias.  And then they further fractured into sub-sects. Twelvers are split into Akhbari and Usuli, right?  With all these differences and disagreements you still take them to be Shia on the whole.

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13 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Neither are Shias.  And then they further fractured into sub-sects. Twelvers are split into Akhbari and Usuli, right?  With all these differences and disagreements you still take them to be Shia on the whole.

There is no division in shia as far as Hz. Abu Talib (عليه السلام) is concerned as believer.

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It is belief of the majority of the Muslims including Shia, and sunnis (expect few extremist like salafis) that Abu Talib was a Muslim and a believer.

The details are given at the following links from Sunni website:

The Parents of the Prophet Muhammad and Abu Talib are saved:

https://www.sahihiman.com/books/prophet-mohammad-parents

Hazrat Abu Talib is saved.

https://www.sahihiman.com/books/hadhrat-abu-talib

Wassalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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36 minutes ago, smma said:

I request everyone who's taking part to stick to the topic so that the thread doesn't become unnecessarily long. Those who believe he wasn't a muslim can bring reasons for their belief and refutations against those who do, and those who believe he was a Muslim can bring their own reasons and refutations. 

Would you like for me to make a separate written paper in the form of a  PDF? I will include everything before Islam, during his life and his death. I'm almost done with the introduction of Trinity into Christianity paper for a brother here. 

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3 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

It is belief of the majority of the Muslims including Shia, and sunnis (expect few extremist like salafis) that Abu Talib was a Muslim and a believer.

The details are given at the following links from Sunni website:

The Parents of the Prophet Muhammad and Abu Talib are saved:

http://www.correctislamicfaith.com/prophetsawsparents.htm

Hazrat Abu Talib is saved.

http://www.correctislamicfaith.com/abutalibrissaved.htm

Wassalam

You mustn't have doubled check what you sent because neither of the links work. 

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13 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

You mustn't have doubled check what you sent because neither of the links work. 

Both links given on the post are working except if some one  do not like to listen or read these

Edited by Muslim2010
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"Some people have misunderstood certain Ahadith and have formed wrong opinions in relation to the Prophet’s (صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم) household. We have discussed this issue in this book in the light of Quran and Sunnah and have concluded that it is a consensus of Ahle Sunnah scholars that Hadhrat Abu Talib (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) was one of great Sahabi-e-Rasool and father figure for Prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم). It is an important book for all Muslims."

As quoted in the text of article

https://www.sahihiman.com/books/hadhrat-abu-talib

Edited by Muslim2010
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1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

Brother you would get any proof except that kalma was not listen by some fellows (who were not muslims at the time of narrating some hadith),  but the growing up of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), protecting him from kufars, saying the Aqad / Nikah at marriage of the prophet and other actions will be dominant from history and narrations. This is all credit of the great personality in islam Abu Talib (عليه السلام).

Yes true.

I would bring up a true incident from my life which might shed some light on this:

When I was a kid, a Hindu girl at school asked me, "How can one become a muslim?" I said as per my knowledge, "We have to say sonething called Kalma/Shahada."

She said, "What is Kalma?".

I recited it.

She then said, "Recite it again with it's meaning. I find it interesting."

I recited again and she followed every line completely.

I just said as a joke, "Congrats. You are a muslim."

She laughed and that was the end of the incident.

Moral: No one becomes a muslim by merely reciting a Kalma/Shahada.

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4 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

Even if this was the case, he refused to accept the Final Message.

which final message????

 abu talib never used anything of prophet muhammed sawa

if you talk about shahadah them.. there didnt exist shahdadh until prophet muhammd sawa became prophet..also the previous prophets used to have shahada too.. go listen to the adhan of judea

4 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

No. This shows you don't read the Qur'an enough to know about those who came before Islam.

lets please not talk how much is witten about people like abu sufyan.. where it has been clear written whoever becomes a muslim without a confession is called a kulak, or even not all of the sahaba are righteous most are hypocrites etc...

we all know how umar,othman,abu bakr, and whole family of abu sufyan used to like and enjoy drinking wine and worshipping their idols.. they were extreme scared to get into war with prophet muhammed and his soldiers.. soo that tells enough how they became bELiEvErs.. 

also do you even know hor umar became muslims...:hahaha:

Umar resolved to kill Muhammad, and thus to extinguish the flame of Islam itself. He left his home with this intention.

As already noted, the Muslims at this time (the last days of the year 6) still gathered in the house of Arqam bin Abi al-Arqam to say their congregational prayers. They were beginning to assemble when one of them, looking out the window, saw Umar approaching toward the house with a drawn sword. In a state of considerable alarm, he told the other members of the congregation what he saw. Presumably, they too were alarmed.

But Hamza, who was also present in the house of Arqam, reassured them, and said that if Umar was coming with good intentions, then it was all right; but if not, then he (Hamza) would run him (Umar) through with his (Umar's) own sword. But it so happened that Umar had come with the intention of accepting Islam, and he did.

The story is told that Umar was going toward Dar-ul-Arqam with the intention of killing Muhammad when a passer-by stopped him, and informed him that his own sister and her husband had become Muslims, and advised him to put his own house in order before undertaking any other grandiose and chimerical project.

4 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

The Jews believed in Allah and never worshipped idols. They're going to Paradise too, right? Regardless, provide evidence.

what you talking with jews believing in god..you are talking about the mushrik jews, they believed satan to be their god.. i think you dont even realise that all prophets from isaac till jesus were all jews.. soo yes they believed in 1 god too!! also theire real true followers in cludinf the appostles of musa and jesus.

prophet muhammed sawa even used to cried alot when he lost abu talib

you all decrease the status of abu talib because he is the dad of imam ali and jaffar al tayyar 

 

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37 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Moral: No one becomes a muslim by merely reciting a Kalma/Shahada.

Some might disagree; just like some say that jokingly saying "talaq, talaq, talaq" results in a divorce (shias don't believe this).

Anyways, relating to the topic, in which year of Prophethood was 2:221 revealed? This is an open question to all here.

Edit: considering it's subject matter, this portion was probably revealed in Makkah, like the vast majority of this Surah. If anyone disagrees, I'd like to hear it.

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1 hour ago, Nightclaw said:

Would you like for me to make a separate written paper in the form of a  PDF? I will include everything before Islam, during his life and his death. I'm almost done with the introduction of Trinity into Christianity paper for a brother here. 

Sure brother.

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Everyone has the freedom to believe whatever they want but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has provided you Aqal with that you should decide what is wrong and right

This websites mentioned the sunni and shia references and quite logical points

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/islam-abu-talib-part-1

2 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

He wasn't a Muslim nor a believer. Provide evidence for this. 

Those are quite harsh words you might regret later of saying those words but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) doors are always open for Tauwbah 

My sincere prayers are with you brother

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guides us on the right path

Ameen

 

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