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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why do ahle sunnah believe hazrath Abu talib wasn't a Muslim?

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Yes, but he unfortunately died as a non-Muslim. There were verses revealed concerning him - such as in Surah Tawbah and Surah al-Qasas. He tried to guide him to accept Islam before his death, but he w

Only the ignorant ones say it because it is what their molvi told them. When we read about Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) his early days and that of his elders, we find that Hz. Abu Talib

Brothers and Sisters have to understand that the only reason some people call Abu Talib((عليه السلام)) an 'unbeliever' and that 'he died a kafir' is to degrade Imam Ali((عليه السلام)). Then they can g

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13 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

In short, courtesy of Banu Umayya and Banu Abbas, and their sponsored ahadith and tafsirs. There is no sunni consensus on his faith, but sadly, the majority view is that he will be in the lightest part of hell (nauzubillah).

 

Some prominent sunni scholars have have brought this view into question recently, bringing forth some strong arguments. Even those scholars who believe this view, stress that this isn't something that needs to be discussed, and this topic should be avoided considering it's a major spark point for sectarian strife.

I would like these prominent Sunni scholars for references. When you say prominent, don't bring me someone who innovates or has a rejected manhaj. Bring an actual scholar.

 

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13 hours ago, smma said:

He is one the most respected and high held figures in islam, right?

Yes, but he unfortunately died as a non-Muslim. There were verses revealed concerning him - such as in Surah Tawbah and Surah al-Qasas. He tried to guide him to accept Islam before his death, but he was unable to - hence the verses. He helped the Messenger and protected him immensely, but to no avail.

You have to look at everything chronologically in our sources. Many people fail to do this and pick out things, singling them out to make a point [selection bias]. You need to start allllll the way from the beginning with authentic evidence. Feel free to cross reference it with non-Muslim sources, as well. I could give you some books to read concerning this. 

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1 hour ago, Nightclaw said:

I would like these prominent Sunni scholars for references. When you say prominent, don't bring me someone who innovates or has a rejected manhaj. Bring an actual scholar.

I would, but they all speak Urdu.

Anyways brother, this is one topic that I don't like discussing with sunnis. Even when discussing sectarian issues with my sunni friends, we have some ground rules: the three caliphs and other respected sunni figures are to be respected by me; similarly, anything derogatory about the Prophet's parents, ancestors, and descendants is off limits to them.

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1 hour ago, Sabrejet said:

I would, but they all speak Urdu.

Anyways brother, this is one topic that I don't like discussing with sunnis. Even when discussing sectarian issues with my sunni friends, we have some ground rules: the three caliphs and other respected sunni figures are to be respected by me; similarly, anything derogatory about the Prophet's parents, ancestors, and descendants is off limits to them.

I don't mind what language they speak. I want their names to verify if they're actually scholars.

This is not really derogatory because it's the truth. It is different if I was insulting them. However, they died as non-Muslims. 

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39 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Do you feel comfortable enough to make such a statement?

إِذَا قَالَ الرَّجُلُ لأَخِيهِ يَا كَافِرُ فَقَدْ بَاءَ بِهِ أَحَدُهُمَا

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/78/130

Yes. Stop quoting our books, please. I do not think you understand them, though this is an exception. 

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4 minutes ago, F.M said:

Islam is the last religion not the first.. Abu talib was from his birth till death a believer in 1 god (he also prayed to him). and he never consumed any haram things he was also of the less people who were werent idol-worshippers and saw such things as haram and not allowed

Even if this was the case, he refused to accept the Final Message.

5 minutes ago, F.M said:

abu talib also played a huge role with raising up the most holy person who ever walked on this world named prophet muhammed sawa.. lets also not forget that abu talib enjoyed listening and respected  prophet muhammed sawa. soo according to sunnism, everyone eho died before prophet muhammed sawa got his message from allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will die a jahil, even tough they believed in the scirptues of abraham (عليه السلام),musa (عليه السلام), and all other prophets???????

No. This shows you don't read the Qur'an enough to know about those who came before Islam.

11 minutes ago, F.M said:

to be honest it sounds really disrespectful that people will call the father of all hashemits a non-muslim!! while he infact stood against injustice, and he never was a idol worshipper but prayed and believed in 1 god!!!!

The Jews believed in Allah and never worshipped idols. They're going to Paradise too, right? Regardless, provide evidence. 

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3 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

I would like these prominent Sunni scholars for references. When you say prominent, don't bring me someone who innovates or has a rejected manhaj. Bring an actual scholar.

 

An urdu speaking scholar Dr. Tahir ul Qadri has actually spoken in length on the topic 'Faith of Abu Talib (RA)(Imaan e Abutalib).

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17 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

I don't mind what language they speak. I want their names to verify if they're actually scholars.

This is not really derogatory because it's the truth. It is different if I was insulting them. However, they died as non-Muslims. 

One of the most prominent Hanafi scholar Dr. Tahir ul Qadri on Faith of Abu Talib.

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Just now, Zainuu said:

No. He is a Hanafi

 

Screenshot_2020-12-22-17-48-21-48.png

You can be a Hanafi Sufi. You can be a Salafi Maliki. You can be an 'Ashari Hanbali. Hanafi is a madhab. Also, in the video, he does things that Sufis/Shi'a/Ikhwani do in sermons - have the crowd give salutations upon the Messenger and his family. 

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8 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

have the crowd give salutations upon the Messenger and his family. 

This is quite a common practice actually. And yes, not only Dr. Qadri but many major Sunni scholars allow this.

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9 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Maulana Tariq Jameel.

He's well known, but he's from the Tablighi.

"The Tableeghi Jama’ah does not have a clear idea on matters of ‘aqeedah, so it is not permissible for anyone to go out with them apart from the one who has knowledge and understanding of the correct ‘aqeedah followed by Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah, so that he can teach them, advise them and cooperate with them for good purposes, because they are very active, but they need more knowledge and they need scholars who know about Tawheed and the Sunnah to teach them. May Allaah help us all to understand His religion properly and adhere to it steadfastly…" 

Majmu' Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz 8/331.

11 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Mufti Hanif Qureshi

He's Barelvi. Not from among the Ahlul Sunnah. Be careful who you say is Sunni. These people aren't from among us. They can claim to be, but they aren't. These people aren't scholars for us. Even someone like Nouman Ali Khan and Yasir Qadhi aren't authorative figures in Islam.

9 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

This is quite a common practice actually. And yes, not only Dr. Qadri but many major Sunni scholars allow this

What "major" Sunni scholars allow this? It's not a common practice. Someone like Yasir Qadhi, who's not even someone who is more than a speaker, doesn't even let this happen. Show me where our scholars allow this. Don't show me these random people, please. These aren't scholars for us. 

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This topic is really sensible because Hazrat Abu Talib AS is respected and loved by every Momin. So before any accusations it is my request to everyone please for sake of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) don't spread those false allegations against someone who was respected and loved by our beloved Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him)

https://m.facebook.com/notes/ahlebait/hazrat-abu-talib-as-the-victimized-momin-in-the-light-of-sunni-and-shia-literatu/314877691864911/

 

Please read that Text .. because this explains really well and if someone is still not believing that he was a Muslim ...then just keep this to you .. because by saying that..a Momins heart gets hurt easily

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4 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

Yes, but he unfortunately died as a non-Muslim.

Disgusting, such audacity, please do not utter such insolence again. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide you. Forget everything else, even logically it makes no sense that Hazrat Abu Talib, the one who raised the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and who was his strongest supporter and defense against Quraysh left the world without having accepted the truth.  

34 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Also, in the video, he does things that Sufis/Shi'a/Ikhwani do in sermons - have the crowd give salutations upon the Messenger and his family.

Why does that bother you? 

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Brother @Nightclaw, perhaps you may want to consider that maybe, the school of thought you prefer to follow is not exactly mainstream sunni. Perhaps the scholars who are marginalizing others are actually a fringe movement themselves. Food for thought.

 

edit: you might want to open your a little bit when listening to those from other schools (even Barelvis and Deobandis, who outnumber Salafis and Ahle hadith by several orders of magnitudes). Even shaitan, the damned liar, might say the truth sometimes, according to Bukhari International 5010.

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1 hour ago, Zainuu said:

No. He is a Hanafi

 

Screenshot_2020-12-22-17-48-21-48.png

Tahir ul-Qadri is a self-promoting “Shaykh ul Islam” Big time Sufi scholar

Quote

 

Shaykh ul Islam Dr Muhammad Tahir ul-Qadri (Urdu: محمد طاہر القادری) (born February 19, 1951, Jhang, Pakistan) is a Pakistani Sufi scholar and former professor of international constitutional law at the University of the Punjab.

Qadri is the founder of Minhaj ul Quran International, a Sufi-based global organisation working in the fields of welfare, human rights and education. Its objectives are the promotion of a moderate and non-extremist vision of Sufi-Islam, the establishment of good relations and understanding between communities and religions, and the education of youth employing the methods of Sufism.

 

https://pk.linkedin.com/in/tahirulqadri

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13 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

These are Brelvis who are highly influenced by Sufism – like visiting shrines etc

You might be shocked to learn that visiting graves and shrines doesn't actually make the majority of sunnis worldwide foam at their mouths; only one explosively loud (no pun intended) minority has a problem.

Anyhow, I doubt some people would have a problem with Tahir ul Qadri's Barelvi background, if the thread were about Shaqshaqiyah or Fadak instead, and we posted a video about his views against them.

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The famous Sunni, Ahle hadees scholar / Alime Deen of Faisalabad, Pakistan mentions that Abut Talib (عليه السلام). is Muslim and he supported the prophet in his life completely. He has rejected the sayings of one sunni that Abu talib was not muslim. The video is given below: 

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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30 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

These are Brelvis who are highly influenced by Sufism – like visiting shrines etc

So, that discards them from Mainstream ahl Sunnah. Right??

This is a way amongst people to call out names and discrediting people. 

Imam Malik was called out Shia for putting hands on the side.

Imam Hakim was considered a shia after he said that Ali (عليه السلام) is the most virtuous among the 4. 

So, being a Shia, Hanafi, Sufi, Hanbali, Salafi doesn't discredit someone.

Only point where someone can be discredited out loud can be if someone is a proven Nasibi. Agree or not..

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51 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Brother @Nightclaw, perhaps you may want to consider that maybe, the school of thought you prefer to follow is not exactly mainstream sunni. Perhaps the scholars who are marginalizing others are actually a fringe movement themselves. Food for thought.

The truth isn't always mainstream. I could flip the switch and say the same thing for you with regards to Sunni and you being a Shi'a. I don't care how many people tell me something is wrong trying convincing me it's right - wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it and right is right even if nobody is doing it!

53 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

edit: you might want to open your a little bit when listening to those from other schools (even Barelvis and Deobandis, who outnumber Salafis and Ahle hadith by several orders of magnitudes). Even shaitan, the damned liar, might say the truth sometimes, according to Bukhari International 5010.

Again, outnumbering means nothing. I will say to you that you should consider what we have to say is the truth, considering we outnumber you. Numbers mean nothing. Khalid ibn al-Waleed and 'Umar took down two superpowers with 40,000 odd men maximum. They weren't even well equipped with food, resources or even material. I don't think numbers has to do with anything.

As for this narration, I'm guessing it's Shaytaan's encounter with Abu Huraira. I haven't looked at it, but going off memory, so correct me if I'm wrong. Even if Shaytaan sometimes tell the truth, should we listen to him - DESPITE Allah telling us not to and that he's our clear enemy? No. 

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1 minute ago, Nightclaw said:

The truth isn't always mainstream. I could flip the switch and say the same thing for you with regards to Sunni and you being a Shi'a. I don't care how many people tell me something is wrong trying convincing me it's right - wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it and right is right even if nobody is doing it!

So, tell me what Abu Talib believed in, if it wasn't Islam?

Prove this that why he didn't follow the way of Abu Lahab (for example)??

If you claim disbelief for him, then prove it.

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l didn't know that Abu Talib was promulgated to the level of debate.

Think of him as another amu of the Prophet -(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s. as was another amu in Surah Lahab.

l checked Wiki and there is a short summation of the Sunni/Shi'a differences.

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2 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Imam Malik was called out Shia for putting hands on the side.

Historically inaccurate. Provide evidence for this.

2 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

So, that discards them from Mainstream ahl Sunnah. Right??

Yes. That is correct.

3 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

This is a way amongst people to call out names and discrediting people. 

Were these people and groups in the first three generations of Islam? No, were the in the FIRST generation of Muslims? Then they're not part of the Sunnah. It's not difficult to grasp nor is it discrediting them in any way. Just as Mormons aren't seen as Christians to Catholics (for good reason), the same is done here to anything other than those following the Sunnah.

4 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Imam Hakim was considered a shia after he said that Ali (عليه السلام) is the most virtuous among the 4. 

Well, if you knew anything about your own history, you'd know that Imam Hakim used to preach the Ismaili version of Shi'ism in Egypt - so he is a Shi'a.

6 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

So, being a Shia, Hanafi, Sufi, Hanbali, Salafi doesn't discredit someone.

Being someone who goes against the Sunnah? They should not be taken from as they might cause deviations. I find it ironic how you say that being a Salafi doesn't discredit someone, but you are the embodiment of rejecting our works!

7 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Only point where someone can be discredited out loud can be if someone is a proven Nasibi. Agree or not..

So if someone is a hypocrite, we take from them? If someone is a deviant, we take from them? If someone is misguided, we take from them? You and Yasir Qadhi would be good friends. 

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