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In the Name of God بسم الله

Making 'Defund the police' make sense

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Very thoughtful argument, which goes to the heart of certain American communities being taxed to fund their own oppression by very well paid people who come from a different socio-economic-ethnic background.

 

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Most African Americans are killed by other African Americans, including black police officers, not whites. The gangster culture etc. is not whites’ fault.

I’m sorry, but I’m done with all forms of identity politics, including “progressive”/“liberal” DNC tropes about their “favoured” voting blocs (prisoners).

At what point are people going to start talking about African Americans’ own personal responsibility for their plight instead of blaming someone else?

What happened to black self-determination, self-reliance, and self-respect, along the lines of Booker T. Washington and Malcolm X? Now it’s just PC.

Edited by Northwest
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Another thing: I haven’t seen a single Establishment liberal blame the Zionist-linked CIA for promoting immoral activities (i.e., drugs) among black criminals, even though the CIA is tied to both the drug trade and the entertainment industry. Just as not a single liberal puts the blame for 9/11 where it belongs. (No, not on nineteen “terrorist” losers with box cutters who couldn’t even pilot small aircraft, so-called “radical Muslims” like Mohammed Atta who dated women of ill repute, consumed pork and drugs, etc.) Lots of selective outrage and sins of omission, that is, lies, but very little of the truth. “Identity politics” is a distraction from truly serious issues and existential matters.

Edited by Northwest
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Controlling crime and catching criminals is the secondary goal of police, their primary goal is to keep the masses in control if the media and politicians fail to keep them from revolting. If you want police brutality to lessen, demand smaller police forces, not give every single officer access to lethal weapon, and allow the community a high degree of control over the police stations 

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1 hour ago, Northwest said:

At what point are people going to start talking about African Americans’ own personal responsibility for their plight instead of blaming someone else?

The "big one" to me is their educational system. Their's has the same state and federal funding per pupil as the suburbs, local taxes, plus targeted federal spending (this is where Head Start got its monies). The locals vote on who is on their school boards, just as in the suburbs . . . and all the inner city schools have is cwap: no effective teaching, 50% to 80% dropout rates, violent crime inside the buildings.

There have been many different ghettos in American cities -Scot, ltalian, lrish, German, etc - and they all saw education as 'their way out.' 

Now with C-l9 messing even that up, there is going to be a quarter of a generation or more with less than this.

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46 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

This is one of those 'NIMBY' situations where people think it's a good idea until their own neighborhood is impacted. 

When it comes to the safety of our own homes and children we all want police presence. 

It made me really nervous when police showed up to "check on" my neighbor. Look, in neighborhoods, we look out for each other. Only subdivisions need outside supervision, because each household is completely alone. 

I'm all for reducing funding to police and military. I'm not ready to abolish them entirely, but I do think police should not go about their daily work armed. 

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@notme there's a good documentary series called Flint Town. It addresses concerns from both sides and I think it's important to understand them. 

Defunding = not having the police available when you need them, abandoning dangerous areas altogether because the police can't enter (thereby destroying the already difficult lives of people who live in such places) and ending up with a society where criminals are better equipped than law enforcement.

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

Defunding = not having the police available

Defunding = reducing funding, not eliminating it entirely.

There are plenty of people advocating for abolishment of police, but that's a separate related movement. 

In my opinion, police budgets should never exceed public school budgets. 

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Edited by notme
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@notme I don't quite agree. The safety of your population is as critical as their education. Children growing up in difficult neighborhoods will struggle to get ahead in life as long as they're surrounded by drugs and violence.

The military budget is the one which I think is unnecessarily inflated. If the same manpower and ressources were distributed between policing and education, I think a lot of good work could be done. 

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If you want to talk about reform, I'm all ears, defunding the police - in contemporary times - is antithetical to a serious reformation process, which I believe supersedes any police organization/entity. You want true change go to the head of the snake, unfortunately you will realize that the majority of your progressive aspirations will go down in folly, because you'll be a target. 

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11 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Children growing up in difficult neighborhoods will struggle to get ahead in life as long as they're surrounded by drugs and violence.

Children going to inadequate schools will struggle to keep up in life, and might be compelled to turn to drugs and violence. 

Schools are usually funded by local property taxes, and so are well funded in rich neighborhoods like the one where I live, and underfunded in poor neighborhoods. Police are usually funded by a combination of municipal, state, and federal funding, and are only minimally affected by neighborhood relative wealth. In my opinion, schools should be given additional funding from outside their communities, to bring them up to state and federal standards, especially given that their accreditation depends on student scores on Standards of Learning tests..

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And why do police need to be armed to direct traffic or for routine traffic stops? Disarming the police would save a lot of money and make communities safer. 

(They can keep the guns locked up back at the station for the rare situation where they might actually be needed.)

I read a statistic today that 1 in 3 people killed by a stranger are killed by a police officer. 

Edited by notme
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On 12/3/2020 at 7:01 PM, Mahdavist said:

The military budget is the one which I think is unnecessarily inflated. If the same manpower and ressources were distributed between policing and education, I think a lot of good work could be done. 

Both emanate from the same ideology.

It's the ideology that:

  • says safety comes from superior force
  • believes socio-economic inequality is not a cause for violence
  • spends more per year on keeping each individual in prison than it did on educating them
  • pays prisoners slave wages.

 

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1 hour ago, Haji 2003 said:

Both emanate from the same ideology.

It's the ideology that:

  • says safety comes from superior force
  • believes socio-economic inequality is not a cause for violence
  • spends more per year on keeping each individual in prison than it did on educating them
  • pays prisoners slave wages.

 

So if your government decides to shut down the police altogether, you're alright with your family living in that society? 

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58 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

So if your government decides to shut down the police altogether, you're alright with your family living in that society? 

It has to be done in a sensible way. 

Heroin is bad, but you don't just cut it off from an addict or they will die. You have to reduce use, provide alternatives, and change circumstances.

Same with police. 

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

So if your government decides to shut down the police altogether, you're alright with your family living in that society?

That's a strawman argument.

Eliminating the police entirely is an extreme position, but there are many different degrees of it. A significant element of the movement is about allocating those resources to social and other services in order to prevent crime.

A few years ago I was working with churches catering to people from the African-Caribbean community in London.

The initiative involved their collaboration with the local mental hospitals in order to improve their community's understanding of the mental health services available and reduce stigma because too many young black men's pathway to mental health services was via the police.

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@Haji 2003 @notme

I agree with additional initiatives to reduce the factors that lead people to crime. 

However crime is not solely the result of poverty. Even the wealthiest societies in the world have crime. 

Reducing the means of the police will only ensure that the criminal organizations are stronger and better equipped than them. 

Good luck catching drug lords, human traffickers and arms dealers with a diluted police force. 

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Bad idea.

Pakistan defunded the police and all it led to was officers turning into bribe-taking sociopaths who do not care or feel bad for human suffering/death they inflict.

Prime example in front of your own eyes.

Edited by El Cid
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On 12/3/2020 at 2:04 PM, hasanhh said:

The "big one" to me is their educational system. Their's has the same state and federal funding per pupil as the suburbs, local taxes, plus targeted federal spending (this is where Head Start got its monies). The locals vote on who is on their school boards, just as in the suburbs . . . and all the inner city schools have is cwap: no effective teaching, 50% to 80% dropout rates, violent crime inside the buildings.

There have been many different ghettos in American cities -Scot, ltalian, lrish, German, etc - and they all saw education as 'their way out.' 

This brings up the issue of busing, integration, and “white flight” since the onset of desegregation post-Civil Rights Act (1964). It is quite clear that poor African Americans perform considerably worse on all academic levels than similarly disadvantaged members of other groups who have eventually managed to integrate better into society. A lot of people like to blame culture and/or religion for this, yet low-income Jews, Chinese, and Anglo-Catholics, all immigrants to boot, have all managed to become wealthy, productive, and educated members of American society, being contributors despite having come from very different ethnographic/religious backgrounds, but having similarly low economic status to that of African Americans, at least early on. If culture and/or religion are incidental factors at best, then the only thing left is biology. This is politically incorrect among today’s Muslims as well as many other people, but one could make an argument that IQ is at least partly related to biological as well as environmental factors.

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On 12/3/2020 at 4:28 AM, Northwest said:

Most African Americans are killed by other African Americans, including black police officers, not whites. The gangster culture etc. is not whites’ fault.

I’m sorry, but I’m done with all forms of identity politics, including “progressive”/“liberal” DNC tropes about their “favoured” voting blocs (prisoners).

At what point are people going to start talking about African Americans’ own personal responsibility for their plight instead of blaming someone else?

What happened to black self-determination, self-reliance, and self-respect, along the lines of Booker T. Washington and Malcolm X? Now it’s just PC.

This is all so disingenuous. 

Gangs are engaged in warfare, over who can profit off of drug-dealing, it is not Black people senselessly killing each other, as is often portrayed in the media. Moreover, there are an endless number of popular "Stop the violence" movements in the inner cities, but this activism simply isn't glamourized in the media. Issues are framed in these ways due to the state's monopoly on violence.

There is good reason to give prisoners the right to vote outside of the Democrats wanting more votes.

The self-determination and personal responsibility advocated by Malcolm X and other Black nationalists persists to this day.

Leftists tend to be opposed to "recognition" and other such identity politics that are under a framework of liberalism. Everyone engages in identity politics to an extent, both on the right, left, and centre.

Note: I am not in favour of progressivism, liberalism, the Democrat party, or anything else of the sort.

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On 12/3/2020 at 2:01 PM, Mahdavist said:

The safety of your population is as critical.

lf you rank local gov't services, how will you list them?

Fire/EMS

Police

Water

?

Physical well-being comes first or none of the other things mean very much.

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On 12/6/2020 at 5:59 AM, Haji 2003 said:

That's a strawman argument.

Eliminating the police entirely is an extreme position, but there are many different degrees of it. A significant element of the movement is about allocating those resources to social and other services in order to prevent crime.

A few years ago I was working with churches catering to people from the African-Caribbean community in London.

The initiative involved their collaboration with the local mental hospitals in order to improve their community's understanding of the mental health services available and reduce stigma because too many young black men's pathway to mental health services was via the police.

When u consider in time of prophet and imam Ali and even the other caliphates there really wasn’t a police force and everyone carried around their own weapon ie sword with them wherever they went and it was t against the law or empire or state to be walking around armed with bow and arrows or swords or spears , obviously the caliph had his guards but generally everyone was armed walking around 

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