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In the Name of God بسم الله

Forum Guidelines Reviews

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  • Advanced Member

salaam alaikum,

Here is something that's been on my heart whenever visiting this site. I dont see the ahl bayt and prophetic feasibility of this guideline:

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Policies or actions by the ShiaChat team should not be discussed and made into a public debate, unless specified by a Moderator/Admin. 

the only reason I could find for not allowing respectful public talk on this is laziness (sorry for using this word - no disrespect intended). 

Is this guideline supported by (documented) governing techniques and limitations of prophet mohamed and ahl bayt? Please prove it if you can, and publicly show us that I'm wrong. 

Another minor detail id like to suggest is removing the respectable term for female dog as a word that can't be used on this forum. Thanks!

Plus I'd love to review all guidelines publicly to make sure they stand the test of the thaqalayn.

May this world have no more oppression!

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  • Veteran Member
41 minutes ago, Allah Seeker said:

Is this guideline supported by (documented) governing techniques and limitations of prophet mohamed and ahl bayt?

Doesn't matter.

l was, on the other thread, close to remembering this rule.

Publicity invites frivolous interjection by  otherwise uninvolved parties.

Also, actions like this are ad hoc and not usually judicial-like reviews.

SC is a very open forum, and l fail to see your complaint.

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  • Forum Administrators
On 11/28/2020 at 2:35 AM, Allah Seeker said:

Policies or actions by the ShiaChat team should not be discussed and made into a public debate, unless specified by a Moderator/Admin. 

This statement is referring to publicly discussing specific mod actions like hiding a post or giving a warning concerning individual members. These are handled privately with the relevant parties. No need to air it out to others. We don’t do public trials in the town square.

If you mean open dialogue about any of the stated rules and policies in general terms, that is ok. In fact, all feedback is highly encouraged. If you think any rules need to be added, removed, or changed, share it publicly, and it can be discussed.

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  • Advanced Member
23 hours ago, Reza said:

This statement is referring to publicly discussing specific mod actions like hiding a post or giving a warning concerning individual members. These are handled privately with the relevant parties. No need to air it out to others. We don’t do public trials in the town square.

If you mean open dialogue about any of the stated rules and policies in general terms, that is ok. In fact, all feedback is highly encouraged. If you think any rules need to be added, removed, or changed, share it publicly, and it can be discussed.

I can understand that the team encourages private solutions to problems, but i don't think there is a basis for making it a rule and even punish people for asking questions about such decisions in public. I dont think that the prophet or imams ever exiled, warned or killed anybody for publically asking a question concerning anybody of imam alis (governors), or the imam himself. Actually there is evidence from the quran that such is the tradition of the pharaoh.

Anyways, let us look at some practical advantages of having members encouraged to discuss every team decision publically:

1 - discourages bullying, because team members will think twice before taking potentially offensive decisions, as the members have now been empowered and have a voice. 

2 - most members do not have friendly relations with anyone from the team, and probably most who have been wronged will simply let it slide. Also it has likewise happened to me on countless occasions where reports that report something perfectly against the rules, goes ignored. If it is reminded by members with support of the rest of the "commoners", it is more likely to be resolved.

3 - it will give forum members a chance to support past decisions or amend them through presenting a bigger pool of evidence and information regarding the truth of decisions taken.

4 - it shows that the team has nothing to hide and no hidden agendas.

5 - it will help to expose both mods /admins who maybe aren't cut out for the job, or simply gives them the chance to make amends, as well as becoming more sure of the decision they took by standing the test of public scrutiny, from which everyone can learn. At the same time it gives the chance for a true free and non oppressive environment where people are not scared of expressing something that islamically is nothing wrong to express - and discuss- in public.

 

Let me end for now with a question:

Do we have an instance where an ahl bayt member warned or exiled somebody for questioning a decision of their governors in public? If yes, then ignore this post after bringing your evidence. If the answer is no, then I must warn this forum dynamic, that it is leading to the same destination as pharaoh. And all mods and admins who have warned, banned, etc members for exerting their God-given rights, will have to face justice for it insha Allah. 

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  • Advanced Member

First of all let me point out that you did not refer as requested to Allah and Ahl Bayt directly. Let us say that this place is the equivalent of al Haram al Shareef, or the mosque at Medina or Kufa during the times that Imam Ali was in power.

If somebody spoke up and mentioned what he saw as oppression against him by governors, what was the reaction? Banishment, warning, or other forms of punishment and silencing as a policy? If yes,  then prove it, if no then you're wrong! No matter how many rational reasons people come up with, if it doesn't hold true with the governance style of ahl bayt, it is hell bound.

Secondly statements like these are definitely not always true 

19 minutes ago, Reza said:

Anyone insisting on making it public is more interested in creating a spectacle, and collecting sympathizers for a metaphorical battle

That is just a generalisation that can't hold true for each and every person who decided to complain about what he sees as a wrong decision by another human moderator or admin. There is the option that this person is exercising his God given right 

Here is what I call real evidence from God for the right to express this..

Allah loveth not that evil should be noised abroad in public speech, except where injustice hath been done; for Allah is He who heareth and knoweth all things. 4:148

Don't you know that PM concerns don't always get justice served? Dont you know that mods and admins can potentially be evil conspirators who enjoy oppressing people? Are you so sure that your team is truly genuinely good? So before coming to conclusions that could sound pharaonic, let us look at the quran again, and the history and please give me your proofs from there. You think imam Ali and prophet mohamed didn't have these problems. They did, and how did they treat the problem of public debates of state decisions? Do you have an answer to that , or did you form your opinion purely on your own rationale? 

26 minutes ago, Reza said:

Mods are specifically assigned and designated for a reason. They are entrusted with more data (private and public), and hence serve as its protector.

Did Allah assign them this? Does having 'data result in good decisions? Doesn't the devil have lots of data too? What makes you so sure that this data access will guide the mods and admins to better decisions than the pressure and proofs of an infinite possibility of public sphere? Do you have proof for that? A wahhabi arab has more access to the language in the quran than you. Does that mean that thisvinformation will necessarily lead to justice? Let us go back to Quran and God:

Nay, We hurl the Truth at falsehood so that the Truth crushes falsehood, and lo! it vanishes. 21:18

Truth is not obtained by some like-minded people with more software power who take fir granted that they are more suitable to judge for whatever reason. The way of Allah here is clear. Give freedom to all sides to clash openly, so the truth emerges.

33 minutes ago, Reza said:

Members have the right to appeal and say what they want in PM to staff. If the only intention is to inquire about an action or reverse a warning, then doing so quietly and privately is the most effective way for reaching a positive outcome, and genuine people know that. 

That sounds tyrannical to me. How can you judge intention? You can't! So no point in even discussing this in policy. 

Imam Hussein did not go quietly with his objections to a bunch of people who also thought they represented an Islamic community. Should imam Hussein have sent PM to Yazid staff? The point is that you can never be sure that all SC staff including yourself are actually good. You aren't sure that you are mumin till after facing the balance of God in judgment day.

Sometimes PM can be the best, other times the sword, yet other times something in between. That is based on actual Islamic sources , and not my opinion alone. Who am I? Who cares about me? Who cares about you @Reza? You're just an anonymous guy like me online that nobody knows. I dont care about your opinio

41 minutes ago, Reza said:

Taking people to the side” and speaking privately on personal indiscretion is a well known tradition to protect someone’s honor and reputation. People tend to not want their dirty laundry in public,

Some dishonorable people who could be admins and mods dont deserve to have their dirty laundry piling up on account of defenceless people here! They need to be exposed or at least removed and/or corrected. Why do you only assume we are talking about shameful things us commoners did? This topic is about how the ahl bayt handled commoners who complained about the supposed shameful acts of the governors! Get the difference?

But one thing is for sure:

Not being allowed to question human authority publically , is in perfect tune with the story of Moses, when the pharaoh exposed himself by not allowing people to question him among his magicians. So the concept of not questioning in public has a direct parallel in the quran as well. 

48 minutes ago, Reza said:

Same for those who let emotions dictate their actions. Somebody gets angry about something, then posts recklessly and inattentively, and that will be remembered by others as an embarrassment for that person. Even if that person grows up and repents, the shame will always be there to a degree, because the past can never be fully erased. Privacy and personal integrity is very important, and cannot be easily brought back if lost. Those who go to prison, with their names spread out everywhere, their mug shot photo on public display, will have a hard time being full trusted by society or getting a decent job again, even if they fully repent and pay their dues back in full. That's the hard truth. How many of these people wish they were justly punished secretively and anonymously, with their dignity redeemable?

What makes you again so sure that it isn't the mod/admin who is the one who will be remembered badly? Several prophets and imams went to jail, so your talk here doesn't hold against thaqalayn again. What if the staff member is the one deserving punishment? I am honestly disappointed in you after witnessing the "election" that was organised where you became a mod or admin.

51 minutes ago, Reza said:

Actively undermining the integrity of the site by inciting grievance and accusation through improper channels to seed chaos, doubt, or division is not acceptable.

That sounds like the typical head of state talking like the one in North Korea for instance. Who said that public scrutiny of government officials qualifies as such? You are aware that many people were banned or unsubscribed from this site because they received bullying warnings for simply questioning decisions in respectful ways? I am one of those people who often stays away from shiachat because of this. To us this is not proper, causes division and is not acceptable according to God! 

 

57 minutes ago, Reza said:

Banned members are not "exiled",

Actually they are exiled from this site. In real life exiled people can likewise lurk. 

 

58 minutes ago, Reza said:

but simply relieved of their contractual abilities due to a violation of that contract, decided through the process that exists. Forced into the ether by their own action. 

So again you blame the member without giving thought to the possibility that they could be a victim. 

So far you have not convinced me even one bit that this rule is islamic, and not satanic. 

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  • Advanced Member
34 minutes ago, Allah Seeker said:

You're just an anonymous guy like me online that nobody knows.

Even if you were super known with a black belt in islam from qum and najjaf, your argument would be baseless unless you bring evidence from the quran and hadiths. So even if it was an all-famous Ayatulah @Reza, your fatwas and opinions dont matter much without textual evidence for your claims.

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  • Hameedeh changed the title to Forum Guidelines Reviews
  • Veteran Member
On 11/30/2020 at 10:37 PM, Allah Seeker said:

Did Allah assign them this? Does having 'data result in good decisions? Doesn't the devil have lots of data too? What makes you so sure that this data access will guide the mods and admins to better decisions than the pressure and proofs of an infinite possibility of public sphere?

Do not "push" bro. Besides, administrative procedures are not found in Quran or hadtith.

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  • Advanced Member
6 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Do not "push" bro. Besides, administrative procedures are not found in Quran or hadtith.

We have examples and commandments of how to govern in quran and hadiths all over the place. It is enough that the prophet and imam ali did govern.

If SC does not follow at least in principle these guudlines of the suna of Allah and the Prophet, then people like me should stop coming here. If SC staff can not at least try to prove their policies through the thaqalayn, then it clearly shows how much or little value they put into Islam or being actual shia of imam Ali. 

If anybody is truly striving to me a shia of Ali, they must implement similar limitations and directions.

So far nobody on this thread other than me has used any islamic material to prove their point.

When imam Ali sent a letter to the future governor of Egypt, in nahjul Balagha, he gave such guidelines. He clearly said that if there is any argument or disagreement, that he should refer to Allah and the prophet. Allah is by checking the quran, and the prophet is by checking the known narrations on the prophet. 

Now I wonder if anybody can prove this guideline of infringing on the freedom of speech in such a way, from the two weighty things.

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  • Veteran Member
5 minutes ago, Allah Seeker said:

So far nobody on this thread other than me has used any islamic material to prove their point.

 

6 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Besides, administrative procedures are not found in Quran or hadtith.

0kay, you start. Give a counter-proof.

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  • Advanced Member

Current reality for SC public sphere:

 

Questioning the prophet's governing decisions? OK

Questioning imam Ali's claim to wilaya? OK

Questioning the book of Allah? OK

Questioning existence of Allah? OK

Questioning SC staff decisions? NO

 

:sign_no:

 

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  • Advanced Member

I would like to say that I see myself as a guest in the house of the website "owner", who is @Ali

Lots of respect to him, and i feel that he must be a good person, who is busy with other things than running the Internets biggest shia community. 

When staff members abuse people, I usually make excuses for the site owner, and give him the benefit of the doubt of not being aware. This respect for his space and gratefulness for being in it, is reflected by me having invited him - as a revenge - to my actual physical home, via PM. (Invitation still stands)

I really have not seen much from this brother, but if it turns out that we are on different wavelengths, then I will personally walk out of here respectfulky, with a "thank you". By wavelength I mean the intention of implementing guidelines and an atmosphere based on the sunah of Allah and His prophet, which is reflected by the decisions and actions of ahlulbayt. The oppressors need to be weeded out among the staff, and just like there is a thread for explaining how members got banned,  we can have a thread for staff abuses and actions taken as a result. Each accused staff member may bring whatever relevant evidence they want to defend their case to the public. That is in my opinion the right way of bringing this forum to its highest golden potential. For the sake of the abused and voiceless.

If this won't happen at least a bit more and more with time, then probably people like me will eventually invest our efforts and work in other spaces in sha Allah. 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • Moderators
On 12/3/2020 at 7:19 AM, Allah Seeker said:

When staff members abuse people, I usually make excuses for the site owner, and give him the benefit of the doubt of not being aware. This respect for his space and gratefulness for being in it, is reflected by me having invited him - as a revenge - to my actual physical home, via PM. (Invitation still stands)

Revenge? Hmmm. Most people don't know it, but the Staff members have been abused a lot by members and even guests. Most of us ignore the curses. You have to be very patient to be a Team member. 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/search/?&type=core_members&joinedDate=any&group[12]=1&group[20]=1&group[24]=1&group[14]=1&group[4]=1

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  • Veteran Member
On 11/28/2020 at 1:35 AM, Allah Seeker said:

respectful

LOL I LOVE that word! "Respect" "respectful"... yeah if only "respect" is there in something then how can it be wrong or forbidden? :hahaha:

P.S.: Posted with the utmost respects.

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  • Advanced Member
On 12/24/2020 at 9:46 PM, ShiaChat Mod said:

Revenge? Hmmm. Most people don't know it, but the Staff members have been abused a lot by members and even guests. Most of us ignore the curses. You have to be very patient to be a Team member. 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/search/?&type=core_members&joinedDate=any&group[12]=1&group[20]=1&group[24]=1&group[14]=1&group[4]=1

nobody said otherwise. But what needs to be done in my opinion is a platform where people can freely express their objections to mod admin decisions, just like it is OK to give the floor to people objections to the existence of God, Prophethood, Wilaya, etc. 

If it is done respectfully, then why not?

A mod and admin - just like any other human - should be ready for questioning not only in secret, but in public, and ultimately in front of the Balance in Judgment day. It might be that an abusive admin mod might need to forgiveness of a mere member to make it to paradise.

Fact is that many humans are willingly or unwillingly no longer among us here on this site because of a mod-admin decision, which they were not allowed to openly object to. Maybe you can install a voting system for such discussions and use the entire SC community as a jury.

But bottom line is that colored members should stop acting like immune and above the law. They should stop hiding their actions and decisions without giving the person the chance to publically defend their case, with possibly the support of other members who could be more talented at speech and defence. 

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  • Moderators
Quote

Do we have an instance where an ahl bayt member warned or exiled somebody for questioning a decision of their governors in public? If yes, then ignore this post after bringing your evidence. If the answer is no, then I must warn this forum dynamic, that it is leading to the same destination as pharaoh. And all mods and admins who have warned, banned, etc members for exerting their God-given rights, will have to face justice for it insha Allah. 

Please do not compare Mods or Admins to Pharaoh or any other enemy of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

We also should not compare anyone to the Holy Ahlul Bayt AS. 

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On 11/30/2020 at 1:50 AM, Allah Seeker said:

all mods and admins who have warned, banned, etc members for exerting their God-given rights, will have to face justice for it insha Allah. 

Mods remove a lot of nasty words. Some members got banned. If a banned member was more interested in violating the rules than participating and sharing his knowledge, then that is not right. They need to think about their actions. 

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  • Moderators
On 12/3/2020 at 3:53 AM, Allah Seeker said:

So far nobody on this thread other than me has used any islamic material to prove their point.

Many of the replies by warned, suspended or banned members were removed from view. Nobody should see them. 

O you who believe! Ask not about things which, if they were disclosed to you, would trouble you. (The Holy Quran 5:101)

On 12/28/2020 at 3:36 AM, Allah Seeker said:

But bottom line is that colored members should stop acting like immune and above the law. 

:blush: 

Mods always ask members to read the Rules. It's a very long topic, but it would not be that long if everyone acted politely.

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/12120-shiachatcom-rules-and-policy/

Edited by ShiaChat Mod
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