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In the Name of God بسم الله

(Edited by moderator): Marriage of the prophet to A'isha

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She was 6-7 at the time of marriage and 9-10 at the time of consummation of the marriage. This does not make the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) a pedophile because any b

I'm specifically referring to those that know Aisha wasn't 9 or 6, but yet continue propagating that view because it hurts their ideology. They've ceased being Muslim in my eyes. 

@BleedKnee the title of this thread and your opening statement are both seriously problematic. I will edit them,because it's possible you weren't aware of the evidence and the implications of your sta

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There is no consensus amoung ulema about what age Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) married Aisha. The credible reports I have read give her age between 9 and 16. I think the point is that it is not that important what age she was, otherwise the authentic hadith would have been more clear on this point. Even the enemies of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) never accused him of marrying a child. So that means that whatever age she was at the time was considered to be a normal marriageable age for women at that time in the Hijaz. 

Like others have said, the standards for what is and isn't a 'marriageable age' for women have changed over time, and also are different in different parts of the world. We shouldn't judge the past by contemporary standards on this issue, because we are dealing with a 'moving target'. The expectations of society, as far as maturity level, for a nine year old in Hijaz 1400 years ago, was obviously very different from the expectations of society for a nine year old today in 2020. That is the crux of the issue, IMHO, and we need to take that into consideration when discussing this topic. 

Anyone who accuses Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) of marrying a child is simply trying to slander him, may Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) punish them, and they have no real evidence for this. 

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1 minute ago, Abu Hadi said:

There is no consensus amoung ulema about what age Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) married Aisha. The credible reports I have read give her age between 9 and 16. I think the point is that it is not that important what age she was, otherwise the authentic hadith would have been more clear on this point. Even the enemies of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) never accused him of marrying a child. So that means that whatever age she was at the time was considered to be a normal marriageable age for women at that time in the Hijaz. 

Like others have said, the standards for what is and isn't a 'marriageable age' for women have changed over time, and also are different in different parts of the world. We shouldn't judge the past by contemporary standards on this issue, because we are dealing with a 'moving target'. Anyone who accuses Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) of marrying a child is simply trying to slander him, may Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) punish them, and they have no real evidence for this. 

I will disagree with respect dear brother. Saying that Prophet (PBUHHP) never knows when does a woman becomes of marriage seems to me alleging him keeping underage girls. The historical accounts also differ about this hadith particularly and mentions that age of Hazrat Ayesha (رضي الله عنه) was near 18. 

So, Prophet (PBUHHP) knows what is marriageable age and what is not marriageable age. They have prevented us not to conduct contracts with mentally sick persons and similarly will not conduct marriage with biologically under-developed girls.

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3 minutes ago, Strange Samurai said:

I will disagree with respect dear brother. Saying that Prophet (PBUHHP) never knows when does a woman becomes of marriage seems to me alleging him keeping underage girls. The historical accounts also differ about this hadith particularly and mentions that age of Hazrat Ayesha (رضي الله عنه) was near 18. 

So, Prophet (PBUHHP) knows what is marriageable age and what is not marriageable age. They have prevented us not to conduct contracts with mentally sick persons and similarly will not conduct marriage with biologically under-developed girls.

I think you are misunderstanding my point. My point was that whatever age she was (because there is no consensus on what age she was) was considered a normal age for marriage in the Hijaz at that time. The proof of this is that even the enemies of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) didn't accuse him of marrying a girl who was not eligible for marriage, according to the standards at that time. The enemies of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) took every advantage to accuse him of different things that were false. You think if there was something like this that happened (i.e. that he did in fact marry an underage girl), you don't think his enemies would take full advantage of that situation to accuse him and try to destroy his reputation. That fact that there is no record of his enemies accusing him of this means that she wasn't underage. 

Of course Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) knew what was marriageable age . That was not what I was talking about. I was talking about us, not Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h). 

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Just now, Abu Hadi said:

I think you are misunderstanding my point. My point was that whatever age she was (because there is no consensus on what age she was) was considered a normal age for marriage in the Hijaz at that time. The proof of this is that even the enemies of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) didn't accuse him of marrying a girl who was not eligible for marriage, according to the standards at that time. 

Of course Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) knew what was marriageable age . That was not what I was talking about. I was talking about us, not Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h). 

Not only this, but they never accuse him as to why he let his daughter marry at 14 and he himself married a girl of 9 years. Besides, that was prophet negligent to tell people about age for giving shahdah but would let them ignorant about age of marriage. This does not appeal to me in any way.

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4 hours ago, Strange Samurai said:

@Sabrejet one question out of curiosity, are you sure you are not using a maligned website having same contents as shias, having similar architecture and resources but changes at places to use as means of propaganda ? 

I am worried that lest you not be victimized by propaganda. 

lolz, no one knows Imams say that in the end times truthful and falsehood be as mixed and it will be difficult to decipher truth from falsehood. So, I am always very cautious. And, albeit if Kulayni considered it alright and Sheikh Majlisi showed reservations even then I showed my reasons why I do not believe it. Al-Kulyani was men of Religion and Great Researcher but he was not a biologist and Quran speaks about Bulughut at marriage. So, I made my case. 

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2 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Ok, I see you are referring to 4:6.

Define bulughat. What's the shar'i age of bulughat?

Very detailed topic you want me to define it. Ok as you desire brother.

Bulughat is a condition necessary for marriage as define by Islamic law and is translated as "When comes of age" other definitions include "When one reaches age whereby he is capable of managing difficult affairs" as is referred in various other verses when it is attributed to Prophets. But in case of marriage as a necessary condition for consummation without which marriage is considered as incomplete or invalid until such consummation takes place then "Bulughat refers to when men is capable of generating (excuse me) semen and female undergoes menstural cycle whereby (excuse me) eggs begin to created (God forbid I never wanted to talk about this)".

Are you satisfied ? If you are not then I cannot do anything more than that brother. And, I think we shall not start biology class. And stop here.:grin:

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Just now, Strange Samurai said:

Very detailed topic you want me to define it. Ok as you desire brother.

Bulughat is a condition necessary for marriage as define by Islamic law and is translated as "When comes of age" other definitions include "When one reaches age whereby he is capable of managing difficult affairs" as is referred in various other verses when it is attributed to Prophets. But in case of marriage as a necessary condition for consummation without which marriage is considered as incomplete or invalid until such consummation takes place then "Bulughat refers to when men is capable of generating (excuse me) semen and female undergoes menstural cycle whereby (excuse me) eggs begin to created (God forbid I never wanted to talk about this)".

Are you satisfied ? If you are not then I cannot do anything more than that brother. And, I think we shall not start biology class. And stop here.:grin:

I see you have mixed rushud and bulugh. So I ask again. What is the shar'i age of Bulughiat. It is 15 years for boys. What is it for girls? There is a specific number.

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Just now, Sabrejet said:

I see you have mixed rushud and bulugh. So I ask again. What is the shar'i age of Bulughiat. It is 15 years for boys. What is it for girls? There is a specific number.

Ok, let me define you this as well. Since, I remember every time of my life. At 14 or 15, its initial phase and it may vary for different reasons when a boy is able to produce semen, but it increase with age. And like wise it is said according to science that the females menstural cycles begin at 12 and until 15. 

So, even by your favorite reason, a male child begin to have small hair on upper lips at 12 until 15 when he has semen. And, like wise a girl's physical appearance begins to change at 9 untill 12, so even by your reasons. You cannot prove that Marriage took place at 9 lolz. 

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1 minute ago, Strange Samurai said:

according to science that the females menstural cycles begin at 12 and until 15

The shar'i age of bulugh, near unanimous among current marja', past usooli and akhbari scholars, and hadith literature, is 9. Ayatollah Sistani gives this age. This is also the age when wajibat start being applied to the girl; she has to observe hijab too.

Anyways, the problem lies in your above assumption. Menarche can occur earlier than 12. It can occur at 11, 10, 9, 8 or even lower. Want to hear the lowest number?  Have a look at this wiki page.

No one here is arguing whether it's allowed, or 'moral', to marry a girl at her bulugh age in most countries in 2020. Absolutely no one here.

What we are arguing, however, is the view that did such a thing happen in 7th century Arabia. This argument wouldn't even be happening, in fact, if we were living in 1880 Delaware, United States (minimum age of marriage was 7).

The only reason this debate is even happening is that certain Muslims can't fathom that 7th century Arabia was a vastly different landscape. They will try, no doubt out of benign but misplaced intentions, to twist history and Islamic laws for their own mental comfort. But if it comes at the expense of maligning scholars and believers alike, then unfortunately they have to be corrected.

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39 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

The shar'i age of bulugh, near unanimous among current marja', past usooli and akhbari scholars, and hadith literature, is 9. Ayatollah Sistani gives this age. This is also the age when wajibat start being applied to the girl; she has to observe hijab too.

Anyways, the problem lies in your above assumption. Menarche can occur earlier than 12. It can occur at 11, 10, 9, 8 or even lower. Want to hear the lowest number?  Have a look at this wiki page.

No one here is arguing whether it's allowed, or 'moral', to marry a girl at her bulugh age in most countries in 2020. Absolutely no one here.

What we are arguing, however, is the view that did such a thing happen in 7th century Arabia. This argument wouldn't even be happening, in fact, if we were living in 1880 Delaware, United States (minimum age of marriage was 7).

The only reason this debate is even happening is that certain Muslims can't fathom that 7th century Arabia was a vastly different landscape. They will try, no doubt out of benign but misplaced intentions, to twist history and Islamic laws for their own mental comfort. But if it comes at the expense of maligning scholars and believers alike, then unfortunately they have to be corrected.

Islam does not run by exceptions but by safe rule which can be termed as standard as well. If you are aware of law, then you must be aware that law offers safest age. And, this you also see in Verse 4:6.

Ayotullah Seestani do give starting age of bulugh to be 9 but does not agree that a girl should marry at such age rather at final bulugh and when she is tested to be able to carry the marriage.

There is nothing more to discuss about this topic because you want to run by exceptions but Islamic law is standard law and want people to be at safe side. 

I think you ego is stuck here perhaps and want to prove your case anyway but to me it is completely out of mind and emotional rhetoric just to prove that you are right. Anyways, I think it is sufficient. Should we end now. 

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7 minutes ago, Strange Samurai said:

I think you ego is stuck here perhaps and want to prove your case anyway but to me it is completely out of mind and emotional rhetoric just to prove that you are right. Anyways, I think it is sufficient. Should we end now. 

Its up to you. I have done reasonably enough to convince any new reader of the reality, I think. A minority will always be unable to accept reality, but that's always the case. I was once that minority too btw, but I was open minded enough to reconsider my position.

Like Allah has revealed,

أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ أَمْ عَلَى قُلُوبٍ أَقْفَالُهَا

 

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Just now, Sabrejet said:

Its up to you. I have done reasonably enough to convince any new reader of the reality, I think. A minority will always be unable to accept reality, but that's always the case. I was once that minority too btw, but I was open minded enough to reconsider my position.

Like Allah has revealed,

أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ أَمْ عَلَى قُلُوبٍ أَقْفَالُهَا

 

Ok, I am with the minority. Enjoy majority party bro.:clap:

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Shaykh Ja’far Mutada al Amali has a reply to A’isha being that young,

He argues that she was between thirteen and seventeen at the time of 'aqd (the Marriage formula). He cites Ibn Ishaq's account according to which A'isha was one of the people who converted to Islam early after Bi'tha; in fact she was the nineteenth Muslim. Al-Sayyid Ja'far Murtada al-'Amili draws on this to show that if she was, say, seven at the time of Bi'tha, then she must have been seventeen at the time of marriage and twenty at the time of Hijra, unless it is claimed that she was younger than seven when she converted to Islam.

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Look at all these silly Muslims attempting to please the west by saying Aisha was older than 9.

She was not. She was young. During that time marrying children was normal. My own grandmother got married at 14. Societal standards change. There’s much at play here. Things change because of influence, issues, protests, etc.

in 1000 years people will view a normal happening today as slavery. They might view school as child abuse. They may view people marrying before the age of 30 pedophilic since the brain doesn’t mature completely before 30. Standards change and will continue to change. Deal with it. Stop looking at things that happened 1000 years ago through today’s lens.

@Ibn al-Hussainwrote some really good academic posts about this. Look through his profile and you’ll find them.

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On 11/28/2020 at 4:20 PM, 313_Waiter said:

Salaam brother can you present such ahadith? From my knowledge a girl can jurisprudentially be “married” (no intercourse permitted) before she hits the age of 9, but her permission is still needed after she hits the age of 9. The brothers can correct me if I’m wrong.

Its in Al-Kafi.

- عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عُثْمَانَ عَنِ الْحَلَبِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللهِ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) فِي الْجَارِيَةِ يُزَوِّجُهَا أَبُوهَا بِغَيْرِ رِضًا مِنْهَا قَالَ لَيْسَ لَهَا مَعَ أَبِيهَا أَمْرٌ إِذَا أَنْكَحَهَا جَازَ نِكَاحُهُ وَإِنْ كَانَتْ كَارِهَةً قَالَ وَسُئِلَ عَنْ رَجُلٍ يُرِيدُ أَنْ يُزَوِّجَ أُخْتَهُ قَالَ يُؤَامِرُهَا فَإِنْ سَكَتَتْ فَهُوَ إِقْرَارُهَا وَإِنْ أَبَتْ لَمْ يُزَوِّجْهَا.


4. Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from Hammad ibn ‘Uthaman from al-Halabiy who has said the following: “This is concerning my question before abu ‘Abd Allah, Alayhi al-Salam, about the case of a man who gives his daughter in marriage to someone without her permission. He (the Imam) said, ‘With the existence of her father she has no say and commandments. If he gives her in marriage it is permissible even if she dislikes.’ He (the Imam) was asked about the case of a man who wants to give his sister in marriage. He (the Imam) said, ‘He must have her commandment, permission and if she remains quiet it is her affirmation and if she refuses he cannot give her in marriage.’”


Grading: 

Allamah Baqir al-Majlisi: حسن - Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (0/129)

This is a Sahih Chain.

6- عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللهِ بْنِ الصَّلْتِ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا الْحَسَنِ الرِّضَا (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) عَنِ الْجَارِيَةِ الصَّغِيرَةِ يُزَوِّجُهَا أَبُوهَا أَلَهَا أَمْرٌ إِذَا بَلَغَتْ قَالَ لا لَيْسَ لَهَا مَعَ أَبِيهَا أَمْرٌ قَالَ وَسَأَلْتُهُ عَنِ الْبِكْرِ إِذَا بَلَغَتْ مَبْلَغَ النِّسَاءِ أَلَهَا مَعَ أَبِيهَا أَمْرٌ قَالَ لا لَيْسَ لَهَا مَعَ أَبِيهَا أَمْرٌ مَا لَمْ تَكْبَرْ.


6. A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from ‘Abd Allah ibn al-Salt who has said the following: “I once asked al-Rida’, Alayhi al-Salam, about the case of a small girl whose father wanted to give her in marriage: if she had any commandment. He (the Imam) said, ‘No, with the existence of her father she has no commandments.’ I then asked about a virgin who has grown like other woman; if she has any commandment with her father. He (the Imam) said, ‘No, she does not have any commands with her father.’”


Grading: 

Allamah Baqir al-Majlisi: صحيح - Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (0/130)

 

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
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21 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Its in Al-Kafi.

- عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عُثْمَانَ عَنِ الْحَلَبِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللهِ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) فِي الْجَارِيَةِ يُزَوِّجُهَا أَبُوهَا بِغَيْرِ رِضًا مِنْهَا قَالَ لَيْسَ لَهَا مَعَ أَبِيهَا أَمْرٌ إِذَا أَنْكَحَهَا جَازَ نِكَاحُهُ وَإِنْ كَانَتْ كَارِهَةً قَالَ وَسُئِلَ عَنْ رَجُلٍ يُرِيدُ أَنْ يُزَوِّجَ أُخْتَهُ قَالَ يُؤَامِرُهَا فَإِنْ سَكَتَتْ فَهُوَ إِقْرَارُهَا وَإِنْ أَبَتْ لَمْ يُزَوِّجْهَا.


4. Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from Hammad ibn ‘Uthaman from al-Halabiy who has said the following: “This is concerning my question before abu ‘Abd Allah, Alayhi al-Salam, about the case of a man who gives his daughter in marriage to someone without her permission. He (the Imam) said, ‘With the existence of her father she has no say and commandments. If he gives her in marriage it is permissible even if she dislikes.’ He (the Imam) was asked about the case of a man who wants to give his sister in marriage. He (the Imam) said, ‘He must have her commandment, permission and if she remains quiet it is her affirmation and if she refuses he cannot give her in marriage.’”


Grading: 

Allamah Baqir al-Majlisi: حسن - Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (0/129)

This is a Sahih Chain.

6- عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللهِ بْنِ الصَّلْتِ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا الْحَسَنِ الرِّضَا (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) عَنِ الْجَارِيَةِ الصَّغِيرَةِ يُزَوِّجُهَا أَبُوهَا أَلَهَا أَمْرٌ إِذَا بَلَغَتْ قَالَ لا لَيْسَ لَهَا مَعَ أَبِيهَا أَمْرٌ قَالَ وَسَأَلْتُهُ عَنِ الْبِكْرِ إِذَا بَلَغَتْ مَبْلَغَ النِّسَاءِ أَلَهَا مَعَ أَبِيهَا أَمْرٌ قَالَ لا لَيْسَ لَهَا مَعَ أَبِيهَا أَمْرٌ مَا لَمْ تَكْبَرْ.


6. A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from ‘Abd Allah ibn al-Salt who has said the following: “I once asked al-Rida’, Alayhi al-Salam, about the case of a small girl whose father wanted to give her in marriage: if she had any commandment. He (the Imam) said, ‘No, with the existence of her father she has no commandments.’ I then asked about a virgin who has grown like other woman; if she has any commandment with her father. He (the Imam) said, ‘No, she does not have any commands with her father.’”


Grading: 

Allamah Baqir al-Majlisi: صحيح - Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (0/130)

 

This states جارية. جارية Is a slave. Therefore this talks about a specific criteria.

Edited by Ibn Al-Shahid
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22 hours ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

This states جارية. جارية Is a slave. Therefore this talks about a specific criteria.

Well brother if there can a separate thread shedding light on some hadiths like these, it would be of great help. Translation makes it look like it is for every un married - dependent woman.

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