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In the Name of God بسم الله

(Edited by moderator): Marriage of the prophet to A'isha

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OP disagrees with the idea that the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) married A'isha when she was a child.

Original thread title and post edited since they were inappropriate.

Edited by Mahdavist
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She was 6-7 at the time of marriage and 9-10 at the time of consummation of the marriage. This does not make the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) a pedophile because any b

I'm specifically referring to those that know Aisha wasn't 9 or 6, but yet continue propagating that view because it hurts their ideology. They've ceased being Muslim in my eyes. 

@BleedKnee the title of this thread and your opening statement are both seriously problematic. I will edit them,because it's possible you weren't aware of the evidence and the implications of your sta

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Perhaps you are making a mistake because of their ignorance. If you call them disbelievers because of their ignorance then beware. Making takfir on another Muslim takes you out of the fold of Islam if they are not as if you say they are.

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I'm specifically referring to those that know Aisha wasn't 9 or 6, but yet continue propagating that view because it hurts their ideology. They've ceased being Muslim in my eyes. 

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15 minutes ago, BleedKnee said:

I'm specifically referring to those that know Aisha wasn't 9 or 6, but yet continue propagating that view because it hurts their ideology. They've ceased being Muslim in my eyes. 

She was 6-7 at the time of marriage and 9-10 at the time of consummation of the marriage. This does not make the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) a pedophile because any biographical and anatomical knowledge along with a hint of history can tell you that she was more than ready. There is a whole explanation on this that even scientists agree with for the 21st century, let alone 1,440 odd years ago. Nobody claimed he was a pedophile up until the 19th-20th century. Why? Well, because he was not one.

If this causes me to not be Muslim in your eyes and I am officially a kafir, no problem. Make takfir on me. Either what you say is true or you are the one who becomes outside the fold of Islam.

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4 hours ago, BleedKnee said:

I want nothing to do with them. 

Salaam

Don't do takfir. Be discrete. 

Takfir is done if someone denies any of the three basic principles: 

Monotheism, prophethood and judgement day

Yes, Your argument is correct. She was not 6 to 9 years old but atleast 19 to 21 during the marriage. Such things should not be said about the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in any respect. 

And we are not here to please scientists or liberals or anyone but to please Allah. 

May Allah be pleased with you

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16 hours ago, BleedKnee said:

I'm specifically referring to those that know Aisha wasn't 9 or 6, but yet continue propagating that view because it hurts their ideology. They've ceased being Muslim in my eyes. 

Calm down and go ask a scholar about the topic and the status of those who confirm the younger age.

Remember we should never be the mouthpiece for the true Kaffirs and propgate their antiislamic ideology.

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Be very careful, you are treading on dangerous grounds. Firstly you are making takfeer. Secondly you are assuming that if the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) married wives of a certain age (a position accepted by shia and sunni scholars) then he did something immoral (naudhubillah).

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20 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

any biographical and anatomical knowledge along with a hint of history can tell you that she was more than ready. There is a whole explanation on this that even scientists agree with for the 21st century, let alone 1,440 odd years ago.

The truth is the opposite of what you say. The evidence shows that girls matured slower in those days.

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I think the only place its mentioned he married a child is bukhari, and maybe some other sunni sources. It is non sensical to claim that a 9 year old would be physically or mentally ready for anything, and the fact that so many Muslims believe it is completely incomprehensible to me. Just because its written in a book doesn't make it true, use your heads and stop insulting the prophet((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) this way

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51 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Be very careful, you are treading on dangerous grounds. Firstly you are making takfeer. Secondly you are assuming that if the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) married wives of a certain age (a position accepted by shia and sunni scholars) then he did something immoral (naudhubillah).

 

He never married a child, that's what OP is saying

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20 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

She was 6-7 at the time of marriage and 9-10 at the time of consummation of the marriage. This does not make the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) a pedophile because any biographical and anatomical knowledge along with a hint of history can tell you that she was more than ready. There is a whole explanation on this that even scientists agree with for the 21st century, let alone 1,440 odd years ago. Nobody claimed he was a pedophile up until the 19th-20th century. Why? Well, because he was not one.

If this causes me to not be Muslim in your eyes and I am officially a kafir, no problem. Make takfir on me. Either what you say is true or you are the one who becomes outside the fold of Islam.

Entirely against Quran, where Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says when Allah (عزّ وجلّ) regarding wealth says for orphans: "And, give them their properties when they have achieved Rushd". Do you think property is more important than marriage or marriage is more important than property. Property is lifeless, even if it get destroyed you can obtain it again but life is not like property once a life is affected, it cannot be amended. So, Marriage is more important than property as it also involves dealing with newborns, if it were that all children could be married at beginning of puberty, how would they raise their children if they get children soon. It is beyond the comprehension of a sane Muslim.

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@Strange Samurai please avoid qiyaas in an attempt to prove such marriages as impermissible, because they aren't.

Even if one assumed that the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) didn't marry A'isha when she was young, what do you say about the age of Fatima (sa) when she married Imam Ali (عليه السلام)?

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1 hour ago, smma said:

I think the only place its mentioned he married a child is bukhari, and maybe some other sunni sources.

This isn't true, you can find this in al Kafi, Bihar al Anwar (possibly quoting from al Kafi, I haven't checked) and I believe al Tabrisi also recorded this. 

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

Even if one assumed that the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) didn't marry A'isha when she was young,

That was a political betrothal. Europe did the same. The youngest there -excluding pre-birth agreements- that l remember reading is age three.

Then l worked with a girl from eastern Ky in the 80s who takled about her grandmother at age 4 being marred to a 12 year-old in exchange for a cow.  :ko:"Must have been some cow."

And l remember my grandmother saying how mad her older sisters were when our state raised the marriageable age from 12 to 14.

And South Carolina didn't raise its marriageable age from 12 to whatever until the mid 1980s.

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On 11/27/2020 at 9:01 AM, BleedKnee said:

I'm specifically referring to those that know Aisha wasn't 9 or 6, but yet continue propagating that view because it hurts their ideology. They've ceased being Muslim in my eyes. 

So would you like to throw these scholars under the bus? They are all kuffar in your eyes?

Quote

إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص دَخَلَ بِعَائِشَةَ وَ هِيَ بِنْتُ عَشْرِ سِنِينَ وَ لَيْسَ يُدْخَلُ بِالْجَارِيَةِ حَتَّى تَكُونَ امْرَأَةً 

“The Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله entered upon (had sexual intercourse with) `Aa’ishah when she was 10 years old, and that one doesn’t enter (upon) a jaariyah (girl) until she became a woman.”

Source:

1.       Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol.7, pg. 388, hadeeth # 1

2.       Al-Toosi, Tahdheeb Al-aHkaam, vol. 6, ch. 91, pg. 251, hadeeth # 49

3.       Al-`Aamilee, Wasaa’il Al-Shee`ah, vol. 1, ch. 4, pg. 44, hadeeth # 75

Grading:

1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH

è  Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 24, pg. 235

2.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH Mawqoof (Authentic Halted)

è Milaadh Al-Akhyaar, vol. 10, pg. 102

Source

I’m sorry you feel uncomfortable by this, maybe watch this video:

 

Edited by 313_Waiter
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45 minutes ago, BleedKnee said:

Yes. 

That’s unfortunate. Would your fatwa extend to the numerous scholars of jurisprudence who allow consummation after the girl has reached the age of 9 (like Sayed Seestani (rad))? If the below numerous ahadith by the Imams (عليه السلام) are correct, would your fatwa of takfir extend to the infallible Imams (نَعُوْذُبِالله)?

Quote

As for Wasa'il al-Shi`a, here is the link again: http://alsafwh.net/library/vblibrary/alwasael/wasael-20/v05.html

For the ease of the reader, I have translated the hadiths of the chapter:

ـ باب انه لا يجوز الدخول بالزوجة حتى تبلغ تسع سنين فإن
فعل قبل ذلك فعيبت أو أفضاها ضمن وحكم الدخول بالامة
قبل ذلك

Chapter on the impermissibility of having intercourse with a wife until she reaches 9 years, and if he does so prior and she becomes deflowered or one has intercourse with her, then he is culpable.

[ 25142 ] 1 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد جميعا ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن حماد ، عن الحلبيّ ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : قال : إذا تزوج الرجل الجارية وهي صغيرة فلا يدخل بها حتى يأتي لها تسع سنين .

Imam as-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: If a man marries a girl and she is young, he should not have intercourse with her until she is nine years old.

[ 25143 ] 2 ـ وعن حميد بن زياد ، عن الحسن بن محمد بن سماعة ، عن

صفوان بن يحيى ، عن موسى بن بكر ، عن زرارة ، عن أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) قال : لا يدخل بالجارية حتى يأتي لها تسع سنين أو عشر سنين .
ورواه الصدوق بإسناده عن موسى بن بكر (1) .
ورواه الشيخ بإسناده عن الحسين بن سعيد ، عن صفوان ، مثله وزاد قال : إني سمعته يقول : تسع سنين أو عشر سنين (2) .
ورواه الصدوق في ( الخصال ) : عن أبيه ، عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى ، عن أبيه ، عن صفوان بن يحيى ، مثله (3) مع الزيادة

Imam al-Baqir (عليه السلام) said: A girl does not have intercourse until she is nine or ten years old.
And this hadith has been narrated in three other Shia sources.

[ 25144 ] 3 ـ قال الكليني : وعنه عن زكريا المؤمن أو بينه وبينه رجل لا أعلمه إلا حدثني عن عمار السجستاني قال : سمعت أبا عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) يقول لمولى له : انطلق فقل للقاضي : قال رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) : حد المرأة أن يدخل بها على زوجها ابنة تسع سنين .

The Messenger of Allah (s) said: The [minimum] limit for a woman to have intercourse with her husband is to be nine years old.

[ 25145 ] 4 ـ وعن عدة من أصحابنا ، عن سهل بن زياد ، عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر ، عن عبد الكريم بن عمرو ، عن أبي بصير ، عن أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) قال : لا يدخل بالجارية حتّى يأتي لها تسع سنين أو عشر سنين .
محمد بن الحسن بإسناده عن محمد بن يعقوب ، مثله (1) ، وكذا الحديثان قبله .

Imam al-Baqir (عليه السلام) said: A girl does not have intercourse until she is nine or ten years old.
And this hadith was narrated in another Shia source.

[ 25146 ] 5 ـ وبإسناده عن محمد بن (1) خالد ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن حماد ، عن الحلبي عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : من وطئ امرأته قبل تسع سنين فأصابها عيب فهو ضامن .
ورواه الصدوق في ( الخصال ) : عن محمد بن الحسن ، عن الصفار ، عن يعقوب بن يزيد ، عن محمد بن أبي عمير ، مثله (2) .

Imam as-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: One who has intercourse with his wife before she is nine years old and deflowers her is culpable.

[ 25147 ] 6 ـ وعنه عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن طلحة بن زيد ، عن جعفر ، عن أبيه ، عن علي ( عليهم السلام ) قال : من تزوج بكرا فدخل بها في أقل من تسع سنين فعيبت ضمن .

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said: Whomever marries a virgin and has intercourse with her before she reaches nine years and deflowers her is culpable.

[ 25148 ] 7 ـ وعنه ، عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن غياث بن إبراهيم ، عن جعفر ، عن أبيه ، عن علي ( عليهم السلام ) قال : لا توطأ جارية لاقل من عشر سنين ، فإن فعل فعيبت فقد ضمن .
أقول : هذا محمول على استحباب التأخير أو على الدخول في أول السنة العاشرة .

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said: A girl who is less than ten years old is not deflowered, and if a man does so then he is culpable.

The compiler said: This is interpreted to mean the desirability of delaying intercourse until she becomes ten years old.

[ 25149 ] 8 ـ محمد بن علي بن الحسين بإسناده عن حماد ، عن الحلبي ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) إن من دخل بامرأة قبل أن تبلغ تسع سنين فأصابها عيب فهو ضامن .

Imam as-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: Whomever enters a woman before she is nine years old and deflowers her is culpable.

[ 25150 ] 9 ـ وبإسناده عن الحسن بن محبوب ، عن أبي أيوب ، عن حمران ،

عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : سئل عن رجل تزوج جارية بكرا لم تدرك ، فلما دخل بها اقتضها فأفضاها ؟ فقال : إن كان دخل بها حين دخل بها ولها تسع سنين فلا شيء عليه ، وإن كانت لم تبلغ تسع سنين أو كان لها أقل من ذلك بقليل حين دخل بها فاقتضها فإنه قد أفسدها وعطلها على الازواج فعلى الامام أن يغرمه ديتها ، وإن أمسكها ولم يطلقها حتى تموت فلا شيء عليه .

Imam as-Sadiq (عليه السلام) was asked about a man who married a virgin girl who had not hit puberty, and he had intercourse with her and deflowered her. So he said: If he had intercourse with her when she was nine years old, then there is nothing upon him (no problem). If she had not reached nine years of age, or if he had intercourse with her and demanded it of her when she was younger than that, then he has corrupted her and hindered her from the husbands (remarrying). It is upon the Imam to charge him her diyya (compensation money). But if he withholds and does not divorce her until she dies, then there is nothing upon him.

[ 25151 ] 10 ـ وفي ( الخصال ) : عن أبيه ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن محمد بن أبي عمير ، عن غير واحد ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : حد بلوغ المرأة تسع سنين .

Imam as-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: The [minimum] limit of puberty is nine years.

 

Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) was probably 9 when she married. This is according to al-Kafi, Volume 8, page 338-339: http://www.yasoob.com/books/htm1/m012/09/no0986.html

From al-Kafi, volume 1, book 4, in the chapter on the birth and death of Amir al-Mu'mineen, graded Hasan by Allamah al-Majlisi
عبد الله بن جعفر وسعد بن عبد الله جميعا، عن إبراهيم بن مهزيار، عن أخيه علي بن مهزيار، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن هشام بن سالم، عن حبيب السجستاني قال: سمعت أبا جعفر عليه السلام يقول: ولدت فاطمة بنت محمد صلى الله عليه وآله بعد مبعث رسول الله بخمس سنين وتوفيت ولها ثمان عشرة سنة وخمسة وسبعون يوما.

It says that Fatima was born 5 years after the Prophet was commissioned. That's 615 CE.  The historians put the marriage of Ali and Fatima after Badr, which was in 624 AH. This means Ali was 24 and Fatima was 9.

Source: Brother Qa’im.

Edited by 313_Waiter
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2 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

I think he is referring to this:
 

 

He must have never heard of precocious puberty, huh? Nonetheless, I am sure this was not the case here. The study done here stated: "It's important to note that correlation doesn't equal causation, and there's no evidence that it's the early puberty that's driving these trends." Not only that, the NHS states that... it can begin from 8-14 years of age, so that wipes out the article saying that 10 was an all-time low/early stage of development.

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@BleedKnee the title of this thread and your opening statement are both seriously problematic. I will edit them,because it's possible you weren't aware of the evidence and the implications of your statements.

Please be very careful because like I said you are at the risk of making takfeer but also of disrespecting the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) by suggesting that his marriage was inappropriate (naudhubillah). 

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  • Mahdavist changed the title to (Edited by moderator): Marriage of the prophet to A'isha
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9 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

@Strange Samurai please avoid qiyaas in an attempt to prove such marriages as impermissible, because they aren't.

Even if one assumed that the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) didn't marry A'isha when she was young, what do you say about the age of Fatima (sa) when she married Imam Ali (عليه السلام)?

Wasn't lady fatima(sa) 16? A woman is fully physicaly and mentally developed at that point, you cant compare it with 6 year old

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9 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

@Strange Samurai please avoid qiyaas in an attempt to prove such marriages as impermissible, because they aren't.

Even if one assumed that the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) didn't marry A'isha when she was young, what do you say about the age of Fatima (sa) when she married Imam Ali (عليه السلام)?

I never used qayas as for Hazrat Zahra (عليه السلام), in some narrations here age is mentioned 18 and in some 14. A females achieves puberty at age 9 and reaches its completion at 14 where as a male at 12 and reaches at completion near 17 or 18. 

Besides, the case of Syeda Zahra (عليه السلام) is different from rest of females as some Ahadith say they used achieve age of 1 year in six months as is said about Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Plus, Hazrat Abbas (عليه السلام) had similar body and shape at 13 years of age in Siffein like Mola (عليه السلام) with similar muscles so much so that enemies at siffein were confused how come two Ali's (عليه السلام) fighting at different sides. 

Similar is said about Hazrat Maryam (عليه السلام). They aged fast but when they also aged slow. They aged fast to reach youthfulness but normal from youthfulness to old age. 

I did not make qayas brother, you made qayas on me and blamed me for lying at which I am hurt. But no worries, I earned Allah (عزّ وجلّ) attention which is more than what I deserve.

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5 minutes ago, smma said:

Wasn't lady fatima(sa) 16? A woman is fully physicaly and mentally developed at that point, you cant compare it with 6 year old

The near unanimous opinion is that she (s.a) was martyred at the age of 18. She had four children at that point. Do the math

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@MahdavistAnd, if a Hazrat Zehra (عليه السلام) was married at 14 even then its within meaning of said Quranic verses for her. Not only she had intellectual maturity since birth but at 14 she was more capable than an experienced old lady unlike other ordinary human girls.

I hope this is not qayas for you.

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5 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Guys, if you live in an Eastern or Middle Eastern country, here's a little exercise. Try finding out the age of your great-grandparents, especially great-grandmothers. You might be surprised.

We are aware about it brother in Asia too. But, even if I tell you that a male child's puberty starts at 12 he does not get capability of producing a child until the age of 14 or 15 in my case. I suppose that males might have different biological puberty ages perhaps, but safe age for male is 18. And, Prophet (PBUHHP) shows that safe age for marriage of youths are 14 for a female and 20 for a male as Hazrat Zahra (عليه السلام) was 14 and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was 20 in 624 A.D according to a part of accepted Ahadiths.

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14 is safe for female and 20 for male, if they know how to raise children, they know how infants react and what they need. And, if they are married and do not know it just for sake of preventing them from sin, its age for marriage with the condition that parents do not leave them by considering them having reached intellectual maturity and abandon them with infants in little hands. There arises responsibilities of parents too to take care of their grandchildren that are product of their youthful child's marriage. 

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3 minutes ago, Strange Samurai said:

shows that safe age for marriage of youths are 14

I know a close friend who's maternal great grand mother was 11 when she was married to her husband aged 28. They had many children according to him, no issue. And that is just one example.

I understand your and @smma's sentiment. Some things that were taken for granted in the past, are now inconceivable in our society. Not just in our society, btw; worldwide in general. Look up Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings (a famous example).

Brother, it's one thing to feel shocked by events of the past when viewed through the modern lens (slavery also comes to mind).

It's another to go out of your way to try to water down or attempt to revise history so that it's more palatable to our modern mindset.

 

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Just now, Sabrejet said:

I know a close friend who's maternal great grand mother was 11 when she was married to her husband aged 28. They had many children according to him, no issue. And that is just one example.

I understand your and @smma's sentiment. Some things that were taken for granted in the past, are now inconceivable in our society. Not just in our society, btw; worldwide in general. Look up Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings (a famous example).

Brother, it's one thing to feel shocked by events of the past when viewed through the modern lens (slavery also comes to mind).

It's another to go out of your way to try to water down or attempt to revise history so that it's more palatable to our modern mindset.

 

I am not shocked at all, but to me Quranic and Traditional ways are more important then human practice. Hazrat Maryam (عليه السلام) got Hazrat Esa (عليه السلام) at 14. That is age by which Allah (عزّ وجلّ) allowed that a female can be married with the condition that her parents can look after her children if she gets children soon after birth. And, I emphasize on intellectual maturity because to me Hazrat Maryam (عليه السلام) at 14 is different from an ordinary girl at 14. And, since Quran says that do not give orphans property until they reach of age and you have tested them. How could you go and say yeah it is normal and fine lolz. What you need to understand is that one of my friends parents got married at youth and they have been fighting like children all their age but they played their role to keep them going. 

Do not take infallible similar as ordinary. You are doing mistake here.

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1 minute ago, Strange Samurai said:

Do not take infallible similar as ordinary. You are doing mistake here

The so called companions and the Arabs in general didn't take them to be infallible (I do, of course). Is there any tradition, weak or strong, that says that the objected to these marriages, and they were given the explanation "these are exceptions, they are infallible, don't take this to be the norm"?

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Hazrat Ali (عليه السلام) said: "When some questions are difficult for you leave them for later ages to solve them for the time of solving them have not yet come". 

Our forefathers thought that it is fine to wed a 14 female and 20 male to save them from sins. Its totally fine for such purpose. But, if they do not like each other and still lack intellectual approach as to how marriage works give them time. Quran does not say yes get them married at 14 no extra time allowed. lolz 

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