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In the Name of God بسم الله

Obedience to Corrupt Ruler.

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Concerning Muawiya Fighting Ali (عليه السلام), I am sure you have all heard the Hadith “Ali is with the Haq and the Haq is with Ali and they will not separate until they meet me at the pond.” 

Salam brother I see your question is actually for the ahl Sunnah and not Shias. I am a Shia and strictly oppose this.  It is clearly evident that Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) stood against a t

I am not offended that you said Muawiya is Better then us, but you saying that is also saying he was a good person. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said about Ali (عليه السلام) that only a Belie

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15 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Yes, of course Muawiyya is better than all of you (and myself included). 

If you are trying to be ascetic. Then also it's too much. 

Keep your opinions to yourself brother. It is an insult and abuse to everyone over here to compare someone accursed like 'Muawiya' to the people here. 

Below is a statement I picked from SC guidelines: 

Quote

In response to the bold offering of praise to the enemies of Islam and the Ahlulbayt , Muawiyah and Yazeed, by some members on this board, the ShiaChat team have decided to warn (or ban if warnings are exhausted) any member who offers such open praise to these killers of the Ahlulbayt and the pious Companions.

@Mahdavist

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4 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

If you are trying to be ascetic. Then also it's too much. 

Keep your opinions to yourself brother. It is an insult and abuse to everyone over here to compare someone accursed like 'Muawiya' to the people here. 

Below is a statement I picked from SC guidelines: 

@Mahdavist

If someone brings back a very Old post and asks me to explain it?  Then I will explain what I meant.  I didn’t merely say that out of nowhere.  Blame the one who brought it up, not me.  My view is the typical Sunni view.  
the Typical Sunni view praises all sahaba.  If you find it insulting. The. Don’t bring it up.  If you bring it up then only you are to be blamed for it.

in any case, if the moderators want to delete that post, I don’t really care.  They can if they want to.  Sorry if you all found it insulting.  That was not my intention.  

 

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37 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Muawiya is better then all of us? I know that I didn’t Order to dig up the grave of Hamza (عليه السلام). The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said a man will come from this path and he will die not on my Religion and Muawiya then came from that path.

I am sorry that you feel offended.  Wasn’t my intention.  
 

Peace

 

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I sincerely pray that May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) keep us with Imam Ali (عليه السلام), Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) in akhira.

and May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) keep the ethErEal with Muawiya in akhira.

@Ansur Shiat Ali  @Zainuu

wasalam

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17 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

The Sunni narrative seems more spiritually beneficial and meaningful to me than the Shia narrative.  It is as simple as that.  

Salam and thank you once again.

I can only respectfully disagree with you.

How can such narrative be "spiritually beneficial" while it is lacking the ability to identify the truth as well as the ability to differentiate between truth & falsehood!

17 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Sunnis don't agree on this narrative (that he violated the peace treaty).  I have heard some even argue that the conditions of the treaty are not even known

 

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Yes, of course Muawiyya is better than all of you (and myself included). 

I think this statement can be considered as true if we take it as:

1. He is better than us in disobeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His commands.

2. He is better than us in disobeying Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & his commands.

3. He is better than us in daring to fight with the Imam of his time.

4. He is better than us in killing those who enjoins justice and do Amr bil ma'ruf nahi anil munkar.

5. He is better than us in greed for power & adornment of this worldly life.

6. He is better than us in denying the truth.

7. He is better than us in mixing truth with falsehood.

8. He is better than us in rebellion, in lies.

etc......

We too disobey Allah, Prophet & Imams somewhere in our lives. We too fight & kill our inner voice (somewhere in our lives) which try to stop us from committing sins. We too have the greed of the adornment of worldly life.

But we are not like him, we are like Hurr. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) grant us the toufeeq to fight & conquer our selves and help us in identifying The Truth & worshipping The Truth. ( Haqq Shanasi, Haqq Parasti)

 رَبَّنَا أَفْرِغْ عَلَيْنَا صَبْرًا وَثَبِّتْ أَقْدَامَنَا وَانصُرْنَا عَلَى الْقَوْمِ الْكَافِرِينَ

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2 hours ago, Cool said:

I think this statement can be considered as true if we take it as:

1. He is better than us in disobeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His commands.

2. He is better than us in disobeying Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & his commands.

3. He is better than us in daring to fight with the Imam of his time.

4. He is better than us in killing those who enjoins justice and do Amr bil ma'ruf nahi anil munkar.

5. He is better than us in greed for power & adornment of this worldly life.

6. He is better than us in denying the truth.

7. He is better than us in mixing truth with falsehood.

8. He is better than us in rebellion, in lies.

etc......

We too disobey Allah, Prophet & Imams somewhere in our lives. We too fight & kill our inner voice (somewhere in our lives) which try to stop us from committing sins. We too have the greed of the adornment of worldly life.

But we are not like him, we are like Hurr. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) grant us the toufeeq to fight & conquer our selves and help us in identifying The Truth & worshipping The Truth. ( Haqq Shanasi, Haqq Parasti)

 رَبَّنَا أَفْرِغْ عَلَيْنَا صَبْرًا وَثَبِّتْ أَقْدَامَنَا وَانصُرْنَا عَلَى الْقَوْمِ الْكَافِرِينَ

 

much of what you are saying has to do with which narrative you accept.  Besides this point however, there is another point:

He is better than us in being the Prophet’s (S) Sahaba.  I find respect towards the sahabah to be spiritually beneficial.  Why?  It shows how much we believe in the mercy of our Prophet (S) for his Ummah.  It shows how much we believe and have confidence in the Prophet (S).  This is a very critical point that Is easily overlooked by Shias.  I was Shia so I know.  You will obviously argue that, how is this respect towards the Prophet (S) when we show respect towards people who trampled over the rights of the grandchildren of the Prophet (S).  The Sunni narrative however doesn’t Accept this narrative.  
 

So look at our intention.  I am not being dogmatic about this, I am explaining to you what our intention is.   
 

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

He is better than us in being the Prophet’s (S) Sahaba.  I find respect towards the sahabah to be spiritually beneficial.  Why?  It shows how much we believe in the mercy of our Prophet (S) for his Ummah.  It shows how much we believe and have confidence in the Prophet (S).  This is a very critical point that Is easily overlooked by Shias.  I was Shia so I know.  You will obviously argue that, how is this respect towards the Prophet (S) when we show respect towards people who trampled over the rights of the grandchildren of the Prophet (S).

This one. The fact that people like Mu'awiya are better than us solely because they were the "sahaba". This is not the general sunni position.

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1 minute ago, eThErEaL said:

Is it only salafis who say Muawiyyah is worthy of being respected as a sahabah?

Yup, pretty much. The same salafis who have tried to inject these beliefs into mainstream sunni thought.

How many sunnis have you met called Muawiya? Plenty of Omers, Abu Bakrs, and Khalids, but for some reason this name is almost never used. Why do you think that is?

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1 minute ago, Sabrejet said:

This one. The fact that people like Mu'awiya are better than us solely because they were the "sahaba". This is not the general sunni position.

You mean to say this is only a salafi position?

tell me with a reference what is a traditional Sunni position.  By reference you can simply name a scholar.  

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2 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

tell me with a reference what is a traditional Sunni position.  By reference you can simply name a scholar.

There you go

I hope you understand Urdu. This guy is the closest representation of mainstream sunni as you can get.

In this video, he says that even if Muawiya was a sahabi, we reject his cursing of Ali and his rebellion in general, and we don't follow them in this regard. He gives multiple sunni references throughout the video.

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Just now, Sabrejet said:

Yup, pretty much. The same salafis who have tried to inject these beliefs into mainstream sunni thought.

It is not a salafi position.  I know many traditional Sunnis who hold this position.  I don’t know a single Traditionsl Sunni who Doesn’t hold this position as a matter of fact.  

Just now, Sabrejet said:

How many sunnis have you met called Muawiya? Plenty of Omers, Abu Bakrs, and Khalids, but for some reason this name is almost never used. Why do you think that is?

The reason is because Sunnis hold Abu bake Omar, ali, and Uthman considerably higher than muawiyyah.  

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Just now, Sabrejet said:

There you go

I hope you understand Urdu. This guy is the closest representation of mainstream sunni as you can get.

In this video, he says that even if Muawiya was a sahabi, we reject his cursing of Ali and his rebellion in general, and we don't follow them in this regard. He gives multiple sunni references throughout the video.

Wait.  I am sorry, but can you explain how this video specifically proves your point?  

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Just now, eThErEaL said:

 I know many traditional Sunnis who hold this position

Most probably influenced by these salafi/wahabbi madressa 'graduates' that have mushroomed all over the world after a certain family found vast reserves of oil.

You'd think that Muawiya should have been a fairly common name if he was such a respected sahabi.

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2 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Most probably influenced by these salafi/wahabbi madressa 'graduates' that have mushroomed all over the world after a certain family found vast reserves of oil.

You'd think that Muawiya should have been a fairly common name if he was such a respected sahabi.

no, he was not a well respected sahaba.  I don’t think I ever said that.  I said he is worthy of respect for at least being a sahabah.  

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1 minute ago, eThErEaL said:

Wait.  I am sorry, but can you explain how this video specifically proves your point?

This proves my point for any reasonable sunni or even a reasonable wahhabi.

It's up to you to watch his videos and accurately find out the true sunni position. Judging by your past posts throughout the years, I highly doubt you are even sunni though, or want to be one.

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Just now, Sabrejet said:

This proves my point for any reasonable sunni or even a reasonable wahhabi.

It's up to you to watch his videos and accurately find out the true sunni position. Judging by your past posts throughout the years, I highly doubt you are even sunni though, or want to be one.

Judging by your statement above I have no reason to take you seriously anymore.

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43 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Wait.  I am sorry, but can you explain how this video specifically proves your point?  

It doesn’t he is listening to a youtube scholar by the name of Engineer mirza........google it up and he only represents a few Pakistani people not at all followed by majority.

just wanted to state facts especially since some people are desperate.

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3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

much of what you are saying has to do with which narrative you accept.

And I accept the truth.

3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

He is better than us in being the Prophet’s (S) Sahaba.

He was neither from "Sabiqoon" nor from "Awwaloon". Nor does he followed Sabiqoon Al Awwaloon in true letter & spirit. He infact has killed the Sabiqoon & Awwaloon e.g., Imam Ali (عليه السلام), Ammar bin Yasir (رضي الله عنه), Hujr bin Adi (رضي الله عنه), Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) etc. 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ مَن يَرْتَدَّ مِنكُمْ عَن دِينِهِ فَسَوْفَ يَأْتِي اللّهُ بِقَوْمٍ يُحِبُّهُمْ وَيُحِبُّونَهُ أَذِلَّةٍ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَعِزَّةٍ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ يُجَاهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ وَلاَ يَخَافُونَ لَوْمَةَ لآئِمٍ ذَلِكَ فَضْلُ اللّهِ يُؤْتِيهِ مَن يَشَاء وَاللّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

5:54

3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Why?  It shows how much we believe in the mercy of our Prophet (S) for his Ummah.  It shows how much we believe and have confidence in the Prophet (S).

It is our confidence on Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) words, it is our confidence on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that we are sure about Muawiyah & his likes.

أَنَا حَرْبٌ لِمَنْ حَارَبَكُمْ ، وَسِلْمٌ لِمَنْ سَالَمَكُمْ 

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4 hours ago, Guest Engineer Mirza said:

It doesn’t he is listening to a youtube scholar by the name of Engineer mirza........google it up and he only represents a few Pakistani people not at all followed by majority.

just wanted to state facts especially since some people are desperate.

Thank you.  It did sound desperate to me. Thanks for clarifying.  

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4 hours ago, Guest Engineer Mirza said:

google it up and he only represents a few Pakistani people not at all followed by majority

Oh no, I've been 'exposed' by this brave guest. You're right bro/sis, your one sentence single handedly refuted me, Engineer Mirza, his references, and the 'few' Pakistani people.

Care to say how many Muawiyas you know around you? I know of a few conveniently connected to Sipah e Sahaba, not the general population. There was a Moavia in my school; he was exactly the type of guy raised by parents who'd name their son Moavia.

Of course, like the rational truth seeker he is, @eThErEaL swallowed your unfounded claim rather hurriedly without discourse. I expected nothing less from him.

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On 11/30/2020 at 10:00 AM, eThErEaL said:

I am sorry that you feel offended.  Wasn’t my intention.  
 

Peace

 

I am not offended that you said Muawiya is Better then us, but you saying that is also saying he was a good person. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said about Ali (عليه السلام) that only a Believer loves you and only a hypocrite insults you. Muawiya ordered the cursing of Ali (عليه السلام) in prayer, on the minbar, he even made the people leave the Sunnah out of hatred for Imam Ali (عليه السلام)! How can any man say that he is a good person?

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6 hours ago, Cool said:

And I accept the truth.

He was neither from "Sabiqoon" nor from "Awwaloon". Nor does he followed Sabiqoon Al Awwaloon in true letter & spirit. He infact has killed the Sabiqoon & Awwaloon e.g., Imam Ali (عليه السلام), Ammar bin Yasir (رضي الله عنه), Hujr bin Adi (رضي الله عنه), Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) etc. 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ مَن يَرْتَدَّ مِنكُمْ عَن دِينِهِ فَسَوْفَ يَأْتِي اللّهُ بِقَوْمٍ يُحِبُّهُمْ وَيُحِبُّونَهُ أَذِلَّةٍ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَعِزَّةٍ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ يُجَاهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ وَلاَ يَخَافُونَ لَوْمَةَ لآئِمٍ ذَلِكَ فَضْلُ اللّهِ يُؤْتِيهِ مَن يَشَاء وَاللّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

5:54

It is our confidence on Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) words, it is our confidence on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that we are sure about Muawiyah & his likes.

أَنَا حَرْبٌ لِمَنْ حَارَبَكُمْ ، وَسِلْمٌ لِمَنْ سَالَمَكُمْ 

 I don’t accept your Shia narrative.  Is this what Sunnis generally accept and believe?  Is this what you are saying?  If so, I would be interested in knowing of traditional Sunni scholars who also accept some of your statements above about what Muawiyyah has done (as per Shia narrative).  We are just interested in knowing what the respective narratives are.  Let us first try to understand each other’s narrative completely.  

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3 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

Oh no, I've been 'exposed' by this brave guest. You're right bro/sis, your one sentence single handedly refuted me, Engineer Mirza, his references, and the 'few' Pakistani people.

Care to say how many Muawiyas you know around you? I know of a few conveniently connected to Sipah e Sahaba, not the general population. There was a Moavia in my school; he was exactly the type of guy raised by parents who'd name their son Moavia.

Of course, like the rational truth seeker he is, @eThErEaL swallowed your unfounded claim rather hurriedly without discourse. I expected nothing less from him.

Brother this is funny because when we use that same argument for Ali ra naming His kids Umar etc you lot come up with a million different excuses.

Yes many are named Muawiya and yazeed.....you need to travel out more and engage with Sunnis and not stay among shias and making up your own stuff.

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Note: I purposely didn't copy paste the hadith here; too long. 

Here's a hint of the actual sunni position of Mu'awiya ibn Hind. For starters, here are three references from Bukhari and Muslim:

Sahih Bukhari International 4776: Mu'awiya ordering people to unjustly consume wealth and killing each other.

Read the final lines of the hadith; there's your sunni position on corrupt rulers.

Sahih Muslim 4108: Mu'awiya arrogantly claiming that he deserves khilafat more than anyone else present. Umar's son had a biting retort for him, but he kept quiet, because for some reason, some people are rabid when it comes to Banu Ummayya and their kings. You see those people today too, although thankfully they are a (rather vocal and violent) minority.

 

Sahih Bukhari 4827:

Here's Mu'awiya's beloved governer asking people to acknowledge Yazid as his successor in Mu'awiya's lifetime. Blatantly breaking Imam Hasan's treaty. You know that narrative where Mu'awiya chose Yazid on his death bed? Big fat lie. Anyway, this pious right hand man of Muawiya is chasing Abu Bakr's son to arrest him in response to a wise jab. Ummul Momineen Aisha makes a cameo.

 

The sunni who talked about these references had these words of advice about Muawiya's lovers: stick to haq char yaar, don't go beyond if you don't want to be humiliated.

 

Edit: Guest bro, go annoy someone else. I'm a bit tired to respond to your totally original, totally on-topic, well articulated and well researched points.

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1 hour ago, Sabrejet said:

Note: I purposely didn't copy paste the hadith here; too long. 

Here's a hint of the actual sunni position of Mu'awiya ibn Hind. For starters, here are three references from Bukhari and Muslim:

Sahih Bukhari International 4776: Mu'awiya ordering people to unjustly consume wealth and killing each other.

Read the final lines of the hadith; there's your sunni position on corrupt rulers.

Sahih Muslim 4108: Mu'awiya arrogantly claiming that he deserves khilafat more than anyone else present. Umar's son had a biting retort for him, but he kept quiet, because for some reason, some people are rabid when it comes to Banu Ummayya and their kings. You see those people today too, although thankfully they are a (rather vocal and violent) minority.

 

Sahih Bukhari 4827:

Here's Mu'awiya's beloved governer asking people to acknowledge Yazid as his successor in Mu'awiya's lifetime. Blatantly breaking Imam Hasan's treaty. You know that narrative where Mu'awiya chose Yazid on his death bed? Big fat lie. Anyway, this pious right hand man of Muawiya is chasing Abu Bakr's son to arrest him in response to a wise jab. Ummul Momineen Aisha makes a cameo.

 

The sunni who talked about these references had these words of advice about Muawiya's lovers: stick to haq char yaar, don't go beyond if you don't want to be humiliated.

 

Edit: Guest bro, go annoy someone else. I'm a bit tired to respond to your totally original, totally on-topic, well articulated and well researched points.

You don’t get it yet.  I want you to explain to me the narrative of Sunnis BY Traditional Sunnis regarding Muawiyyah.  
 

what is the narrative of Sunnis By Sunnis.  Do you get what I am asking?  Is it clear to yet or not so?  Or do we have to repeat ourselves a thousand times? 
 We are discussing accepted narratives.  What is the Sunni narrative?  Let us be clear of the accepted narrative first.  I know you have an Arsenal of Sunnis Hadith you can use, mashallah, but it is pretty useless if you don’t know how Traditional Sunnis scholars DEAL with these Hadith.  
 

 

Edited by eThErEaL
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5 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

Oh no, I've been 'exposed' by this brave guest. You're right bro/sis, your one sentence single handedly refuted me, Engineer Mirza, his references, and the 'few' Pakistani people.

Care to say how many Muawiyas you know around you? I know of a few conveniently connected to Sipah e Sahaba, not the general population. There was a Moavia in my school; he was exactly the type of guy raised by parents who'd name their son Moavia.

Of course, like the rational truth seeker he is, @eThErEaL swallowed your unfounded claim rather hurriedly without discourse. I expected nothing less from him.

I am asking you nicely,  can you please quote a non-controversial figure traditional Sunni scholar?  

Look, just be fair alright.  Let us try to genuinely understand each other and not just score points.  I truly want to understand and have a fruitful dialogue if possible.  This guy Mirza seems to be unacceptable by majority of Sunnis.  the following excerpt from Wikipedia explains it:
 

Mirza was born in 1977 in Jhelum, a city in Punjab, Pakistan. He is a 19th grade engineer in a government department.[5][3][6]

Mirza gives online lectures where he talks about different religious and social issues and runs a research academy where he imparts religious education.[7][5][8] He has been criticized for a number of his speeches which have been deemed as derogatory towards Sahabah, Auliya and traditional scholars by his critics.[5][9]

Mirza was arrested on 4 May 2020 in suspicion of spreading hate speech towards religious scholars.[10][7] Pakistani actor Hamza Ali Abbasi and anchor Shafaat Aliposted on social media condemning his arrest.[7] He was later released on 6 May 2020.[11][12][13] According to Mirza, one of his lecture was presented out of context. He later cited several books as well as the Qur'an in support of his opinion.[7][5

 

 

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30 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

I am asking you nicely,  can you please quote a non-controversial figure traditional Sunni scholar?  

I think a better example, at least from the indian subcontinent region, would have been Mawdudi. 

Some other contemporary examples:

https://scholar.princeton.edu/links/pro-alid-sunnis-المنزهون من اهل الحديث

Edited by Mahdavist
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54 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

I think a better example, at least from the indian subcontinent region, would have been Mawdudi. 

Some other contemporary examples:

https://scholar.princeton.edu/links/pro-alid-sunnis-المنزهون من اهل الحديث

Thank you for sharing this! 

So the link says that this is a new movement.   But it is still good to keep in mind that there is a new movement in the Sunni world.  But we still would like to know exactly which parts of the traditional Sunni narrative they disagree with and what the proposed narrative of this new Sunni movement is.  Is it completely in line with the Shia narrative?  If not, how is it different from the Shia narrative?  This is what I would be interested in knowing.

Now about Maududi, this would be an example of a traditional scholar.  I am glad you brought him up.  Would you be able to explain what exactly he says about Muawiyyah, and how he differs from the Shia narrative Regarding Muawiyyah (if at all)?

by the way, I appreciate your maturity and cordial approach in engaging in this dialogue.  This is the only way all of us can benefit.  Thank you.

Edited by eThErEaL
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