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In the Name of God بسم الله

How does Allah see and hear?

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Imam Jafar al-Sadiq, peace with him, has said, “He, the most Exalted One, is Hearing and Seeing. He hears without a faculty, sees without a tool. Rather, He hears by Himself, sees by Himself Imam

Lol! Like a lot of other spectators, I'm sitting back and watching/reading whilst the drama unfolds. To be fair, it's quite an interesting topic, which if we dare to be honest, must have crossed

Read the underlined and bold paragraph:   Additional (not necessary) reading:    

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6 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Look at the definition of reality.

There is an entire chapter of the Qur'an called "The Reality". Read it and comprehend it.

I'll get to it eventually; I have a habit of reciting the Quran one ruku at a time daily, to reflect properly, and right now I'm on Chapter 3.

Anyways, time and space are limiting constructs. The type of space known by the layman is Euclidean. Once you know about the existence and scope of metric and topological spaces and beyond, your mind will be blown.

Allah is not limited by any of the spaces that we are aware of. To be "present" in one of them in the most literal sense of the word, means that he is limited by the rules and laws of that space, and that constitutes disbelief and shirk.

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Just now, Nightclaw said:

Look carefully at what you said.

Let's look at it this way, these words do refer literally to Allah but they're not perfect so they're not completely literal. But I guess in a way you could say they are. But the thing is, when we say they're metaphors we mean that they're too imperfect to refer perfectly to Allah.

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1 minute ago, Sabrejet said:

I'll get to it eventually; I have a habit of reciting the Quran one ruku at a time daily, to reflect properly, and right now I'm on Chapter 3.

You read full chapters each rak'at? 

2 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Anyways, time and space are limiting constructs. The type of space known by the layman is Euclidean. Once you know about the existence and scope of metric and topological spaces and beyond, your mind will be blown.

I know about it. Albeit, I would argue that time is not a limiting construct, depending on what sense it has. Allah has always existed, therefore timeless. With this, time comes from Him. Infinity and eternity entails an existence that cannot be measured. Allah is timeless and not bound by anything.

3 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Allah is not limited by any of the spaces that we are aware of. To be "present" in one of them in the most literal sense of the word, means that he is limited by the rules and laws of that space, and that constitutes disbelief and shirk.

Nobody is giving limitations to Allah. This is going around in circles because I keep explaining it time and time again. Allah is not limited by anything, so I do not know why this is being brought up when we both agree upon it. 

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8 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

Be consistent. Apply this to whatever He reveals about himself.

This just further affirms what I have been saying. This is not really an argument against it.

Correct.

Apply this to what I have been saying. Literally change the variables and it is the exact same conclusion.

Nobody is arguing this; strawman.

Nobody said this acts as a hand. You have given your own interpretation after I have repetitively said that it is not like this. You have given your interpretation with no basis or real evidence. Allah never said this. Allah does not use "hand" to mean power, because He uses words all throughout the Qur'an to prove of His power. He explains throughout the Qur'an how His Power is and what exactly it does and whatnot. Never does He use hand to symbolize anything, because the language of the Qur'an is concise. If Allah meant power, He would have said so as He has done throughout the entire Qur'an. If you claim He meant power, provide evidence from the Qur'an that disproves what I am saying.

Be consistent; apply the same premise and conclusion to what I have been saying.

This is literally a contradiction, because you said:

So when Allah says He is the All-Powerful, the actuality of it is baseless and illogical? You talking in circles has led you to run into this problem. Either the attributes of Allah are as they are and we do not know how it is or they are illogical and baseless, as you put it. You could give an alternate answer if it makes sense.

You have not been reading nor trying to understand my thread. The word "thing" is only applicable to that which is within the universe. Anything outside of the universe cannot be a "thing" - so no, Allah does not have something. I have reiterated this for the umpteenth time. Please reread it and fully comprehend before saying that in which I am not doing.

I have no interpretation. I say Allah has these things in which He ascribes to himself, that is unlike anything.

Brother, 

You mistook me entirely. Read again what I wrote.

And 'talking in circles' is something which you are doing and everyone here can approve this. 

@Sabrejet @Justsomeone 

All can acknowledge that you are going round and round. 

A 'thing' is a creation. But we agree that it is not a 'thing' (that you are talking about here)

Other than that, 

If it is outside the domain of creation, 

1. Either it is non-existent - so their is no use talking about something which is not existing.

2. Either it is a 'like' of Allah - saying this is Shirk. 

3. Lastly, it is Allah - So, then you contradict yourself by saying

"Allah has it". Because anything that Allah has is not Allah. 

So, you can clearly see who is talking in circles. 

Wasting time on this topic for 7 pages which is crystal clear. 

 

Wassalam

Edited by Mahdavist
Personal attacks removed
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7 minutes ago, Justsomeone said:

Let's look at it this way, these words do refer literally to Allah but they're not perfect so they're not completely literal. But I guess in a way you could say they are. But the thing is, when we say they're metaphors we mean that they're too imperfect to refer perfectly to Allah.

Then do not say metaphor. Use another word. A metaphor entails that something does not exist in the literal sense; as per Allah's existence. If you say this is metaphorical, then Allah does not exist according to that reasoning.

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1 minute ago, Nightclaw said:

Then do not say metaphor. Use another word. A metaphor entails that something does not exist in the literal sense; as per Allah's existence. If you say this is metaphorical, then Allah does not exist according to that reasoning.

See the definition of the word metaphor that you quoted. I think it's literally a perfect use of the word :grin:

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12 hours ago, Zainuu said:

If it is outside the domain of creation, 

1. Either it is non-existent - so their is no use talking about something which is not existing.

The word "thing" applies to anything within the universe. Therefore, the angels of Allah, Paradise, and Hellfire are nonexistent.

12 hours ago, Zainuu said:

2. Either it is a 'like' of Allah - saying this is Shirk. 

Nobody said it was a "like of Allah". I said it is Allah - in totality.

12 hours ago, Zainuu said:

3. Lastly, it is Allah - So, then you contradict yourself by saying

"Allah has it". Because anything that Allah has is not Allah.

"Anything that Allah has is not Allah"? Okay, Allah has power. This is not Allah. Allah has an existence. This is not Allah. Allah is all of what He ascribes to Himself, so I am not sure where the contradiction comes in.

12 hours ago, Zainuu said:

So, you can clearly see who is talking in circles. 

Yes - you. 

12 hours ago, Zainuu said:

[EDIT]

So now we resort to insults when your reasoning and logic come to an end. Interesting.

Edited by ShiaChat Mod
Personal insult in the quote was removed.
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6 minutes ago, Justsomeone said:

See the definition of the word metaphor that you quoted. I think it's literally a perfect use of the word :grin:

I will just let you believe it how you will. It is problematic and it will only lead us around in circles because it is circular reasoning, which is flawed. 

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1 minute ago, Nightclaw said:

I will just let you believe it how you will. It is problematic and it will only lead us around in circles because it is circular reasoning, which is flawed. 

I also said this in the other thread we had this discussion, you just don't want to accept our use of the word metaphor here. I guess that's okay as long as you understand the basic idea behind it.

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5 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Therefore, the angels of Allah, Paradise, and Hellfire are nonexistent.

I said 'creation of Allah'. Paradise and hellfire are 'creations of Allah'. 

You assumed it as a universe. I never talked about Universe. But the 'realm of creation'. 

If I mentioned Universe, I am sorry for that mistake. Maybe I did a mistake in writing.

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9 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

So now we resort to insults when your reasoning and logic come to an end. Interesting.

I cannot repeatedly present the same logics and same explanations. And that is not an insult. It's the 7th page so you are wasting your time. Your logic is flawed and cannot be accepted by a right brain.

Sorry if I sound insulting but literally it is annoying to quote the same things again and again. 

May Allah guide you.

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1 minute ago, Zainuu said:

I said 'creation of Allah'. Paradise and hellfire are 'creations of Allah'. 

You assumed it as a universe. I never talked about Universe. But the 'realm of creation'. 

If I mentioned Universe, I am sorry for that mistake. Maybe I did a mistake in writing.

Rest assured, you did not mention universe nor did you write it. However, whenever you use the word "thing" it applies within the context of the universe and not externally. If you are speaking of the realm of creation, then this goes back to what I had originally said:

Nothing of Allah is created, for He is the uncreated, the One and Unique. ->Allah is unlike creation. ->Allah has hands, a face, etc. that we cannot comprehend or know of. 

 

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1 minute ago, Zainuu said:

I cannot repeatedly present the same logics and same explanations. And that is not an insult. It's the 7th page so you are wasting your time. Your logic is flawed and cannot be accepted by a right brain.

Sorry if I sound insulting but literally it is annoying to quote the same things again and again. 

May Allah guide you.

You have not presented anything logical other than fallacies and circular reasoning. Your usage of words are problematic and it has shown. Just because others share the same circular reasoning and fallacious points as you does not mean they are right and I am wrong. 

It is not that you "sounded" as if you insulted me - you did. Refrain from calling me your brother and asking guidance for me when you insult me in the same breath because you cannot control yourself. Few men are despicable than he who cannot control his anger.

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12 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

"Anything that Allah has is not Allah"? Okay, Allah has power. This is not Allah. Allah has an existence. This is not Allah. Allah is all of what He ascribes to Himself, so I am not sure where the contradiction comes in.

Everything belongs to Allah but Allah is independent from everything. And nothing is associated with Allah.

"Allah has it" clearly means that you are associating 'it' with Allah. 

I gave you 2 sermons. Now, go debate with Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

May Allah Guide you.

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@Nightclaw so.. I'm half right but completely wrong... ok.

I'm actually studying business administration and we have a subject named business communication. And there was one particular thing that was said: Don't focus on the words used by someone rather the idea behind it. Otherwise we're just going to be stuck at explaining things and never come with a conclusion because the words expressed never truly represent the idea behind it, they're just metaphors (sorry, I had to)

No particular reason for saying this btw, I just wanted tell that to someone.

Edited by Justsomeone
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1 minute ago, Zainuu said:

Everything belongs to Allah but Allah is independent from everything. And nothing is associated with Allah.

Exactly what I have been saying.

1 minute ago, Zainuu said:

"Allah has it" clearly means that you are associating 'it' with Allah. 

I said it is of Allah. If I say Allah has power, is that associating the power with Allah? Yes? Is it wrong to do so? No. Why? Because that power is of Allah. So again, circular reasoning. That, or an error in your faculty of reasoning which is exuding by a landslide.

2 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

I gave you 2 sermons. Now, go debate with Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

Allah and His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) are the only authorities I blind follow. Not Abu Bakr, 'Umar, 'Uthman nor 'Ali (may Allah be pleased with them all). You can do that, sure. I take only from the sender and the deliverer. 

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2 minutes ago, Justsomeone said:

@Nightclaw so.. I'm half right but completely wrong... ok.

I'm actually studying business administration and we have a subject named business communication. And there was one particular thing that was said: Don't focus on the words used by someone rather the idea behind it. Otherwise we're just going to be stuck at explaining things and never come with a conclusion because the words expressed never truly represent the idea behind it, they're just metaphors (sorry, I had to)

No particular reason for saying this btw, I just wanted tell that to someone.

An idea can also be actual, but I understand.

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Just now, Justsomeone said:

@Nightclaw Btw, are there any better words to explain it other than metaphor? It would be interesting to know.

The attributes of Allah? You could say they are complete or absolute in a way He knows best. You should not say metaphor because it will take you down a never-ending rabbit hole, as you have even stated yourself. Of course, it is not literal in the sense where it is as we think of it - no. We can imagine and think how these attributes are, but we will never fully understand them. We cannot even understand infinity nor eternity, despite knowing the definitions and comprehending their meaning. This is a slight example, but I would use complete and absolute. Not metaphor.

In essence, He gives us these attributes and things of Him that are absolute.

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@Nightclaw I assume you have some basic Calculus knowledge.

Most everyone on earth has studied the concept of limits at some point. Suppose a function exhibits a certain behavior as it approaches a number (or a limit). Everything points to the evidence of the limit, the closer it gets, the greater the evidence.

The function may not necessarily have a value at the limit. Simply plugging in the limit will yield infinity. This in no way means that the limit doesn't exist.

 

Just because Allah literally exists outside the created concepts of space and time, means He doesn't exist? Oh, and please don't interpret my use of "outside" as ascribing a certain direction to Him. He has no direction.

Observe the world around you, ponder and reflect, and you'll find that evidence points towards the existence of Allah. You'll find evidence of His Creation, Compassion, and Mercy, the rest of His 99 "names", or His 1001 "names" in Jawshan e Kabir.

What will lead you astray, however, is the concept that Allah might be a giant light bulb (naudhubillah), the likes of which have never been seen or imagined before. (one of my friends seriously believes this.)

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3 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

The attributes of Allah? You could say they are complete or absolute in a way He knows best. You should not say metaphor because it will take you down a never-ending rabbit hole, as you have even stated yourself. Of course, it is not literal in the sense where it is as we think of it - no. We can imagine and think how these attributes are, but we will never fully understand them. We cannot even understand infinity nor eternity, despite knowing the definitions and comprehending their meaning. This is a slight example, but I would use complete and absolute. Not metaphor.

In essence, He gives us these attributes and things of Him that are absolute.

Of course. I use absolute and complete too when referring to Allah himself. But when referring to the 'words' used to refer to Allah. I'd say that these 'words' are not perfect and are 'metaphors' because they're not completely literally or perfectly applicable to Allah.

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1 minute ago, Sabrejet said:

Most everyone on earth has studied the concept of limits at some point. Suppose a function exhibits a certain behavior as it approaches a number (or a limit). Everything points to the evidence of the limit, the closer it gets, the greater the evidence.

The function may not necessarily have a value at the limit. Simply plugging in the limit will yield infinity. This in no way means that the limit doesn't exist.

You would have to prove that before making that assertion.

2 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Just because Allah literally exists outside the created concepts of space and time, means He doesn't exist? Oh, and please don't interpret my use of "outside" as ascribing a certain direction to Him. He has no direction.

No. I am not saying that. This is a question posed by me.

2 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Observe the world around you, ponder and reflect, and you'll find that evidence points towards the existence of Allah. You'll find evidence of His Creation, Compassion, and Mercy, the rest of His 99 "names", or His 1001 "names" in Jawshan e Kabir.

Have done. I am fully aware, though I am not sure this is the place for an emotional argument.

3 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

What will lead you astray, however, is the concept that Allah might be a giant light bulb (naudhubillah), the likes of which have never been seen or imagined before. (one of my friends seriously believes this.)

Again, nobody should believe this. Allah cannot be imagined nor likened to anything in creation - be it newly created or previously created. I will not think or imagine Allah as anything. Why? Because I cannot. This should be the view of all Muslims.

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14 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

If this is what you are saying (which doesn't seem to be the case) then we are on the same page

It does not seem to be the case because you are being inclusive while using circular reasoning as conclusive.

All I did was change the variables and you disagreed when the conclusion was the same with no defects.

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22 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

This question is primarily for the Shi'a. I was wondering about this because it is quite paradoxical when they make claims towards the Ahlul Sunnah of saying Allah is an anthropomorphic being. If you say it is metaphorical, this is problematic because this means that Allah does not hear nor see whatsoever [as a metaphor is a representative of something that is not literal, and in this case, the sight and hearing of Allah]. This also contradicts his name al-Hayy, which entails that He is living and has the qualities of living things, albeit not limited nor comparable whatsoever.

So my question is to the Shi'a:

How does Allah see and hear?

For me it is a heretic question. Notice that I am not referring to you dear brother, but the act of delving into questions that can be harmful and utterly useless. We can never know any "hows" of God's Operation. We have hadiths i believe in usul al kafi that address this point in several deeper ways, I believe - if I remember correctly.

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1 minute ago, Allah Seeker said:

For me it is a heretic question. Notice that I am not referring to you dear brother, but the act of delving into questions that can be harmful and utterly useless. We can never know any "hows" of God's Operation. We have hadiths i believe in usul al kafi that address this point in several deeper ways, I believe - if I remember correctly.

Your explanation is the perfect answer and response. I asked because a lot of people from among the Shi'a say we do shirk because of it, but we have the same explanation and I wanted to honestly see how it was different from our explanation. Lo and behold, it is not. 

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Chapter 8
Chapter On Prohibition on Saying How is Allah (al-Kayfiyyah)
H 242, Ch. 8, h 1
Muhammad ibn al-Hassan has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from al-Hassan ibn Mahbub from 
Ali ibn Ri’ab from abu Basir From Imam abu Ja‘ far ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following. 
"Speak about the creation of Allah and do not speak about Allah His-self. Speaking about the 
Allah’s self does not increase anything to one’s knowledge except more confusion."
In another Hadith from Hariz it reads, "Speak about every thing but do not speak about 
Allah’s self."
H 243, Ch. 8, h 2
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn abu ‘Umayr from 
'Abd al-Rahman ibn al-Hajjaj from Sulayman ibn Khalid from Imam abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).), 
who has said the following. 
"The words of Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious, that say, ‘And that the final end is unto thy 
Lord." (53:42) instructs people to end a discussion that would take up Allah’s self as an object 
of investigation."
H 244, Ch. 8, h 3
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from abu Ayyub from 
Muhammad ibn Muslim from Imam abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following. 
"O Muhammad, people rationalize everything. They even speak about Allah’s self. When you 
hear such discources, say to them ‘There is no god but Allah, the One and no one is similar to 
Him.’"

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9 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

You would have to prove that before making that assertion

Hmm. This concept has been proved ad nauseum ever since the study of calculus was developed. I merely rehashed an old concept, assuming that you might relate to it.

 

12 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Have done. I am fully aware, though I am not sure this is the place for an emotional argument.

Relating to my previous example of limits, you can get as close as you want to the truth of the existence of God (the function can approach the limit, which is 'real'). Everything will point to the undeniable existence of Him. You can't actually ever see Him or perceive Him directly, in this world or the next.

17 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

I will not think or imagine Allah as anything. Why? Because I cannot. This should be the view of all Muslims.

And yet, we have countless ahadith in Sunni books that say otherwise, which brings us back to the point in your original post. Reasonable sunnis (the majority) will accept that the hadith might not be the words of Rasulallah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and will blatantly reject these hadith.

Atharis/Salafis, on the other hand, would rather not reject them outright, and go out of their way to prove otherwise, in a vain attempt to preserve the absolute sanctity of the Jamaa'h and the writers of their books. Those are the beliefs that shia reject and raise objections against.

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12 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Your explanation is the perfect answer and response. I asked because a lot of people from among the Shi'a say we do shirk because of it, but we have the same explanation and I wanted to honestly see how it was different from our explanation. Lo and behold, it is not. 

Thank you dear brother for your kind words 

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27 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

It does not seem to be the case because you are being inclusive while using circular reasoning as conclusive.

All I did was change the variables and you disagreed when the conclusion was the same with no defects.

Now, if you are stubborn and you want to fight then that is a different story. 

But the debate is over on the point:

Everything belongs to Allah but Allah is independent of everything. 

This was my argument from the start. You agree to it, that's the end of the story.

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2 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Hmm. This concept has been proved ad nauseum ever since the study of calculus was developed. I merely rehashed an old concept, assuming that you might relate to it.

No, I do. Though it is completely different in this topic.

3 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Relating to my previous example of limits, you can get as close as you want to the truth of the existence of God (the function can approach the limit, which is 'real'). Everything will point to the undeniable existence of Him. You can't actually ever see Him or perceive Him directly, in this world or the next.

25 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

I agree with everything but the last sentence. You can only find out when you die, and you have not died yet. The Qur'an alludes to the fact, with no interpretation because it is not needed, that we will be able to see Allah. You can agree or disagree, but the fact of the matter remains. If you disagree, however, prove it to me from the Arabic language that it means otherwise because we will get nowhere in English.

4 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

And yet, we have countless ahadith in Sunni books that say otherwise, which brings us back to the point in your original post.

You would have to prove that anything in our books is likening Allah to creation exactly. You can whip out a narration and give your own interpretation or explanation - in which our own scholars do not do - and say it means x, y, and z. That is not my problem nor do I care because I will not accept it because your interpretation is based off of what should not be interpreted nor explained.

6 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Atharis/Salafis, on the other hand, would rather not reject them outright, and go out of their way to prove otherwise, in a vain attempt to preserve the absolute sanctity of the Jamaa'h and the writers of their books. Those are the beliefs that shia reject and raise objections against.

I have explained this to Buddhists, Christians, atheists, Baha'iyya, Jews, Hindus, and esotericists of the like - they all have understood it perfectly. Almost every type of atheist, deist or theist you can name have understood this when I have explained it to them. It is not a difficult concept to grasp. If you do not understand, then there is not much I can do. We are not trying to preserve any sanctity of our writers. If anything, that is what the Shi'a do amongst themselves.

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