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In the Name of God بسم الله

How does Allah see and hear?

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2 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

If God says He has hands in the Quran, then yes it applies there.  We should not say that God intended to mean something other than what he says.  

This is a different statement.  Nobody says God has eyes to see or ears to hear.

 

 

Well, we think that people are not authority rather Prophet (PBUHHP) and Ahlebait (عليه السلام) are authority. They do not say Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has hands like you or us. If you are more closer to Allah (عزّ وجلّ) then please describe what shirt I am wearing.:grin:

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Imam Jafar al-Sadiq, peace with him, has said, “He, the most Exalted One, is Hearing and Seeing. He hears without a faculty, sees without a tool. Rather, He hears by Himself, sees by Himself Imam

Lol! Like a lot of other spectators, I'm sitting back and watching/reading whilst the drama unfolds. To be fair, it's quite an interesting topic, which if we dare to be honest, must have crossed

Read the underlined and bold paragraph:   Additional (not necessary) reading:    

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1 minute ago, Strange Samurai said:

Well, we think that people are not authority rather Prophet (PBUHHP) and Ahlebait (عليه السلام) are authority. They do not say Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has hands like you or us. If you are more closer to Allah (عزّ وجلّ) then please describe what shirt I am wearing.:grin:

:confused: ?

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8 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

If God says He has hands in the Quran, then yes it applies there.  We should not say that God intended to mean something other than what he says.  

 

8 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

This is a different statement.  Nobody says God has eyes to see or ears to hear.

Senses are senses. Eyes, ears, yongue, skin etc. 

Allah created the eyes and ears and just like that created the Hands also. 

AL-WAASI’ The All-Encompassing, the Boundless

This is Allah's name. ALLAH IS 'BOUNDLESS', PERIOD. 

Now, if you want to assume that Allah has hands, don't call him with this name. 

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19 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

If you say that Allah has eyes to see, ears to listen and tongue to speak etc etc, you are basically saying that Allah depends on these senses. In that sense, Allah is not absolute and limitless but rather bound to something. Which will destroy the entire argument of a supreme, most powerful absolute Lord.

I am not saying any of these. I never mentioned Allah having ears, eyes, or a tongue once here. I am not saying Allah is dependent upon these things. Why? Because what we know as hands or face is not comparable to what Allah has - nothing, be it may in the Heavens or the earth, can be compared to Allah - nothing in creation. Simple. 

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2 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

I am not saying any of these. I never mentioned Allah having ears, eyes, or a tongue once here. I am not saying Allah is dependent upon these things. Why? Because what we know as hands or face is not comparable to what Allah has - nothing, be it may in the Heavens or the earth, can be compared to Allah - nothing in creation. Simple. 

What is your point then? 

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36 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

You have a valid point.  Ibn Arabi also criticizes Mutazilites (modern day Shias) for denying the similitude that exists between us and God precisely by using the, “All Hearing and All-Seeing” that are found in certain verses of the Quran. 

I am not sure how else to put it. It is clear as day. When they say it is metaphorically, this is problematic because it entails Allah does not literally hear. I agree; he does not hear or see as we do. However, does that mean he is blind and cannot see whatsoever? No. This is false and problematic. They throw in their own interpretations of the Qur'an, as the Christians and Jews do, and Allah has already warned against that. 

Allah sees and hears, but not in the same way we do and we do not know how He does. It is that simple - the same way He has hands and a face in a way we do not know how nor is it like ours or anything in creation. It is like they accept one definition and reject the other despite it being the exact same.

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1 minute ago, Zainuu said:

What is your point then? 

I am trying to show that we do not believe Allah is anthropomorphic, because this automatically limits Him to being a human being. We are accused of taking things at face value, but that is exactly what the Shi'a do to our narrations when we do not even do that. Allah does not have a hand as we know it, eyes as we know it, or a face as we know it. All we know is that He has them and we do not know how but we accept He has them - and in NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM RELATED TO ANYTHING WHATSOEVER THAT HAS BEEN/WILL BE/IS CREATED. This includes anthropomorphs like ourselves.

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31 minutes ago, Strange Samurai said:

Ab yeh strawman argument kia hai ? Samjhiye please ya phir mujhe iss jhoti baat par phir das minute barbad karne parein ge.

I do not speak that language. Say it again in English.

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3 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

All we know is that He has them and we do not know how but we accept He has them - and in NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM RELATED TO ANYTHING WHATSOEVER THAT HAS BEEN/WILL BE/IS CREATED. 

Okk so let me consider your point and please correct me if I am wrong. 

You are saying:

Allah has hands and face but nothing of what we know or nothing of what is in the domain of creation. Right? 

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43 minutes ago, Warilla said:

Same thing with divine designation. They are quick to say that the Prophet didn't appoint any one. But then give no leaway with Abu Bakar caliphate.

What did the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say to 'Aisha when he wanted to write something down? 

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4 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Allah has hands and face but nothing of what we know or nothing of what is in the domain of creation. Right? 

Essentially, yes. Nothing that has ever been/will be/has been/is created is comparable. No anthropomorphism, zoomorphism, etc. Nothing. 

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Just now, Nightclaw said:

Essentially, yes. Nothing that has ever been/will be/has been/is created is comparable. No anthropomorphism, zoomorphism, etc. Nothing. 

I don't get your isms but let me clarify this. 

Let us consider your perspective from all ends possible:

1. Allah has hands and face and it is a part of creation:

Here, you and I both agree that it is not the case because it questions the boundlessness and absolutivity of Allah

2. Allah has hands and face which were/are/will never be a part of creation:

So, what is it? 

Because anything beyond the domain of Allah's creation is non-existent.

So, if you believe their is something, leave the rest of the argument. This 'something' must must be a creation of Allah or it is non-existent. Their is no other way. 

And if it is a creation, whether we know it or not, that leads us to the first conclusion. 

So, either you can completely agree with me or believe that Allah is not absolute. 

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@Nightclaw as an example the creation of Universe. If we take even a molecule to be s primary object of the creation of Universe, we fail to prove the absolutivity of Allah. 

Because then where did that molecule come from and it's origin and it's origin's origin and even if we get into an infinite loop, either we end up believing that their was something beyond Allah (Astaghfirullah) or end up to our firm belief which is :

"La min She Inn"

Universe was created out of nothing

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3 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

1. Allah has hands and face and it is a part of creation:

Here, you and I both agree that it is not the case because it questions the boundlessness and absolutivity of Allah

Wallahi, you are either not reading what I am saying or you cannot comprehend it. Instead, I will ask you a yes or no question that does not need anything else added:

We have hands and clocks have hands. Are our hands the same as the hands of a clock?

After you answer, you will understand fully.

4 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

2. Allah has hands and face which were/are/will never be a part of creation:

So, what is it? 

I do not know. I just know He has them. Just as when an atheist ask you what is Paradise, what will you do? Describe it in full and detail? No, you will say you do not know but you know it exists as is.

5 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

So, if you believe their is something, leave the rest of the argument. This 'something' must must be a creation of Allah or it is non-existent. Their is no other way. 

And if it is a creation, whether we know it or not, that leads us to the first conclusion. 

So, either you can completely agree with me or believe that Allah is not absolute. 

This is a false dichotomy. Allah exists how He exists with what He exists as. The things He ascribes to Himself is Him, not a creation of any sort. It is Him. It is not and cannot be deduced to the only two options you have put forth because that is wrong and shows that you cannot see it any other way when another way is present.

Therefore, no. I do not agree with you and Allah is absolute.

 

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4 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

@Nightclaw as an example the creation of Universe. If we take even a molecule to be s primary object of the creation of Universe, we fail to prove the absolutivity of Allah. 

Because then where did that molecule come from and it's origin and it's origin's origin and even if we get into an infinite loop, either we end up believing that their was something beyond Allah (Astaghfirullah) or end up to our firm belief which is :

"La min She Inn"

Universe was created out of nothing

This is another fallacious argument. Our very existence confirms the absoluteness of the Creator by default.

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I think the answer to this question is very simple.

Some things especially which pertain to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can only be speculated with educated estimations from both sides. No one can really tell you a clear-cut answer.

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1 hour ago, Nightclaw said:

I can literally hear and see in my dream - as I do in reality. No different. Did I have ears and eyes in my dream?

No, my intention is to see if their is genuine hypocrisy or fallacious arguments that are based on the same thing. If everything is a metaphor based on your reasoning, then Allah does not literally exist because to exist entails being within the context of the universe and He is not in the universe, but outside of it. It is obvious why He calls earth alive. Nonetheless, the Qur'an is clear-cut, concise. It is not a hard concept to swallow. None of these parts are like ours or anything we will ever know of.

Your post was nonsensical enough that atheists loved it. Congratulations. Always a waste of time communicating with you lot.:blabla:

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23 minutes ago, El Cid said:

I think the answer to this question is very simple.

Some things especially which pertain to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can only be speculated with educated estimations from both sides. No one can really tell you a clear-cut answer.

Good luck hammering that in.

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6 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

The things He ascribes to Himself is Him, not a creation of any sort.

If you ascribe something to Allah, that's it brother. Either it is a creation or it is his like. 

When you ascribe something to someone, a distinction remains between both of them. If you say, Allah has hands (whatever it might be).

You distinguished between Allah and what you ascribed to Allah. Because an attribute cannot be similar to the one whom it is ascribed to. 

And now this is from Nahj ul Balagha sermon 1:

Quote

Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and whoever recognises His like regards Him two; and whoever regards Him as two recognises parts for Him; and whoever recognizes parts for Him mistook Him; and whoever mistook Him pointed at Him; and whoever pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and whoever admitted limitations for Him numbered Him. Whoever said: 'In what is He?', Held that He is contained; and whoever said: 'On what is He?', held He is not on something else.

Allah has no hands. PERIOD. 

and thankyou for giving me the third scenario (though I debunked it): "what Allah ascribes to him is him"

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1 minute ago, The Green Knight said:

Your post was nonsensical enough that atheists loved it. Congratulations. Always a waste of time communicating with you lot.:blabla:

It was not nonsensical, because every single atheist I have spoken to has understood the concept because they ask this question most of the time [at least the learned ones]. It is a wonder how you do not understand. Nonetheless, stop communicating with me if it is a waste of time.

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Just now, Zainuu said:

f you ascribe something to Allah, that's it brother. Either it is a creation or it is his like. 

When you ascribe something to someone, a distinction remains between both of them. If you say, Allah has hands (whatever it might be).

You distinguished between Allah and what you ascribed to Allah. Because an attribute cannot be similar to the one whom it is ascribed to. 

Wrong. You ascribe seeing and sight to Allah, but it is creation. However, you say He does not hear or see like us - which is correct. The fact that you say He hears and sees [in which is not limited] shows you are ascribing creation to Him, as you say. 

Quote

Because an attribute cannot be similar to the one whom it is ascribed to. 

I am not sure if you know this, but Allah gives Himself names and attributes in the Qur'an. All-Powerful? Attribute. Well-Acquainted? Attribute. The Merciful? Name and attribute. This sentence of yours is going against the Qur'an because the Qur'an gives the opposite.

Quote

When you ascribe something to someone, a distinction remains between both of them

So Allah ascribes to Himself as the One and Unique, Ever-Living, Self-Subsisting - these must not be part of him, according to your own definition. Using fallacious arguments and antimonies instead of leaving things alone will dig your hole deeper than it is.

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You distinguished between Allah and what you ascribed to Allah.

No, I have literally said it is Allah. All of it is Allah. You need to reread and comprehend and ask me instead of jumping the gun.

3 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Allah has no hands. PERIOD. 

Then Allah does not see nor hear, using the same reasoning and logic you apply. Even if you say He does not hear nor see like us, He still does not hear nor see because this is an attribution - according to your own logic.

4 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

and thankyou for giving me the third scenario (though I debunked it): "what Allah ascribes to him is him"

You did not debunk it. You keep using this reasoning that is flawed and full of continuous inconsistencies. These ascriptions of Allah is Allah - period. If you say Allah has no hands and it is purely metaphorical, this is your own interpretation. You are free to have it - even if it is 110% incorrect. 

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6 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Then Allah does not see nor hear, using the same reasoning and logic you apply. Even if you say He does not hear nor see like us, He still does not hear nor see because this is an attribution - according to your own logic.

I don't think that's the outcome of the reasoning. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) being All Seeing and All Hearing essentially tells us that no form of knowledge or information can be hidden from Him. He is aware of everything that can be seen, everything that can be heard and more. 

A sound that is outside of my hearing range will remain unknown to me, but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will have the absolute knowledge of that sound without necessarily having a 'physical' connection to it.

It is our own limitation that we need eyes and ears to process sound waves and light. 

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OP never even quoted anything to demonstrate his claims, he just expects us to assume that his position is a hermeneutical default without first justifying it.

For Allah's hand's the Qur'an only uses it as a metaphor for God's decree, covenant and by prophecy itself (as Jews believe that God stopped sending prophets at Malachi - aka "tied up"): 

Why do not the rabbis and the scribes forbid them from sinful speech and consuming illicit gains? Surely, evil is what they have been working. The Jews say, ‘Allah’s hand is tied up.’ Tied up be their hands, and cursed be they for what they say! Rather, His hands are wide open: He bestows as He wishes. Surely many of them will be increased by what has been sent to you from your Lord in rebellion and unfaith, and We have cast enmity and hatred amongst them until the Day of Resurrection. Every time they ignite the flames of war, Allah puts them out. They seek to cause corruption on the earth, and Allah does not like the agents of corruption. Had the People of the Book believed and been Godwary, We would surely have absolved them of their misdeeds and admitted them into gardens of bliss. (Surah 5:63-65)

"Have they not seen that We have created for them —of what Our hands have worked— cattle, so they have become their masters?" (Surah 36:71)

The Qur'an is refuting particular groups of Jews of using their claim to no more prophethood as an excuse to corrupt and do haram things.

For Face of Allah: 

To Allah belong the east and the west: so whichever way you turn, there is the face of Allah! Allah is indeed all-bounteous, all-knowing. (Surah 2:115)

And do not invoke another god besides Allah; there is no god except Him. Everything is to perish except His Face. All judgement belongs to Him, and to Him you will be brought back. (28:88)

To which seems to denote two things; 1. God's omnipresence and 2. The Prophets and Imams (who are Khalifa - Surah 22:30).

 

 

And as I've already posted in another thread: 

From Ali (in the Nahjul Balagha):

"He who assigns to Him (different) conditions does not believe in His Oneness, nor does he who likens Him grasp His reality. He who illustrates Him does not signify Him. He who points at Him and imagines Him does not mean Him. Everything that is known through itself has been created, and everything that exists by virtue of other things is the effect (of a cause). He works but not with the help of instruments. He fixes measures but not with the activity of thinking. He is rich but not by acquisition. Times do not keep company with Him, and implements do not help Him. His Being precedes times. His Existence precedes non-existence and His eternity precedes beginning. By His creating the senses it is known that He has no senses. By the contraries in various matters it is known that He has no contrary, and by the similarity between things it is known that there is nothing similar to Him. He has made light the contrary of darkness, brightness that of gloom, dryness that of moisture and heat that of cold."

From the Qur'an:

"He is the First and the Last,the Manifest and the Hidden,and He is the awareness of all things" (Surah 57:3)
"To Allah belong the east and the west: so whichever way you turn, there is the face of Allah! Allah is indeed all-bounteous, all-knowing." (Surah 2:115)
"The originator of the heavens and the earth,He made for you mates from your own selves,and mates of the cattle, by which means He multiplies you. Nothing is like Him, and He is the All-hearing, the All-seeing." (Surah 42:11)
Say, "He is God, the One (unity, without division). God is the All-embracing (which all things ontologically depend upon, the Absolute and eternal) He neither begat, nor was begotten, There is Nothing like Him." (Surah Ikhlas, 112)

From Kitab at-Tawhid:

On the authority of Safwan ibn Yahya that I enquired from Imam al-Kazim (AS): “Inform me about the Will. Is it a part of Allah or is it of the Creation?
Hence, he (عليه السلام) answered "The will is part of the created conscience, and it manifest itself in action. As for Will of Allah, the Mighty and High, then it is His Making [ihdath] and none other than that because He does not reflect, does not imagine, and does not think. These attributes cannot be applied to Him as they are attributes of creation. Thus, Allah’s Will is action and nothing else. He says to it: “Be and it is,” without a word or speech expressed by tongue, or by imagination or by thought. His Will is expressed without form in the same way that He is without form."

Also from Kitab at-Tawhid:

Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid said, on the authority of some of our scholars that Imam al-Rida (عليه السلام) was passing by a grave from the graves of his Household, so he placed his hand on the grave and said:
"O my God! Your Omnipotence is apparent. However, since You are Shapeless, people are ignorant of You. They try to measure You in a vain efforts to recognize You. However, any measurement of You is other than you. O my Lord! I disassociate myself from those who compare You with Your creation. Nothing is similar to You. My Lord! They cannot comprehend You. If they wanted to recognize You, Your blessings are the best proof for You. O my God! It is sufficient for them to ponder on Your Creation, and to refrain from exploring Your Nature. However, they consider You are your Creation as one and the same. That is why they fail to truly recognize You and consider Your Signs as their Lord and have described you as such. My Lord! You are far above the descriptions of the anthropomorphist."

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2 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

I don't think that's the outcome of the reasoning. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) being All Seeing and All Hearing essentially tells us that no form of knowledge or information can be hidden from Him. He is aware of everything that can be seen, everything that can be heard and more. 

A sound that is outside of my hearing range will remain unknown to me, but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will have the absolute knowledge of that sound without necessarily having a 'physical' connection to it.

It is our own limitation that we need eyes and ears to process sound waves and light. 

Allah does not need to have a physical connection to it, because anything physical is created and Allah is uncreated. He can hear it and have knowledge of it without being physically connected to it.

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

So, the point is that Shias think they know better how God should have worded thing s in the Quran.  In other words Shias are trying to say, "He doesn't really mean to say hearing and sight, he just means all knowing".  is that it?

Muhammad ibn al-Hasan ibn Ahmad ibn al-Walid (رضي الله عنه) said: Muhammad ibn al-Hasan alSaffar, on the authority of Sahl ibn Ziyad, on the authority of Muhammad ibn Isma`il ibn Bazi, on the authority of Muhammad ibn Zayd that I came to (`Ali) al-Rida (عليه السلام) asking him about Divine Unity, so he (عليه السلام) dictated to me: All praise be to Allah, the Originator, Producer, and Innovator [Mubtadi`] of all things from the beginning by His Power and Wisdom, not from anything that could invalidate His Invention, nor for nay wrong cause. He created whatever He wanted how He wanted, and He did so independently in order to manifest His Wisdom, and the Reality of His Lordship. Intellects cannot grasp Him. Imagination cannot reach Him. Eyes cannot perceive Him, and scale cannot encompass Him. Speech is incapable without Him. Eyes are expressionless without Him, and rhetoric of description goes astray in Him. He is hidden without a veil and is covered without a covering. He is recognized without seeing. He is described without an image. And He is praised despite the face that He does not possess a body. There is no god but Allah, the great, the Most Exalted.”

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`Ali ibn Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn `Imran al-Daqqaq (may Allah be pleased with them) said: Muhammad ibn Abu `Abd Allah al-Kufi said: Muhammad ibn Isma`il al-Barmaki said: on the authority of al-Husan ibn al-Hasan, and al-Husayn ibn `Ali, on the authority of Salih ibn Abu Hammad, on the authority of Bakr ibn Salih, on the authority of Muhammad ibn al-Husayn ibn Sa`id, on the authority of `Abd Allah in al-Mughayrah, on the authority of Muhammad ibn Ziyad said: I heard Yunus ibn Zabyan say I entered in the presence of Abu `Abd Allah al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) and told him: Hisham ibn al-Hakam made a long statement. I will simply summarize it: He considers Allah to be a body because things are of two types: bodies or actions of bodies. Hence, if it is not possible for the creator to be an action, it is only possible that He be a Doer. Then Abu `Abd Allah (عليه السلام) replied: “Woe to him! Does he not know that a body is extremely limited, and an image is absolutely limited? Hence, if a limit is possible then increase and decrease are possible, and if increase and decrease are possible, then He is created. I asked: “Then what should I say? He answered: He has neither body nor image for He is the creator of bodies and images. He is devoid of parts and limits. He does not increase, nor does He decrease. If He were as he (Hisham) says then there would be no difference between the Creator and the created, or between the Inventor and the invented. However, He is the Inventor. The Creator of Bodies and Images does not resemble anything nor does anything resemble Him.

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1 minute ago, al-Muttaqin said:

OP never even quoted anything to demonstrate his claims, he just expects us to assume that his position is a hermeneutical default without first justifying it.

I was asking a question.

2 minutes ago, al-Muttaqin said:

For Allah's hand's the Qur'an only uses it as a metaphor for God's decree, covenant and by prophecy itself (as Jews believe that God stopped sending prophets at Malachi - aka "tied up"): 

Why do not the rabbis and the scribes forbid them from sinful speech and consuming illicit gains? Surely, evil is what they have been working. The Jews say, ‘Allah’s hand is tied up.’ Tied up be their hands, and cursed be they for what they say! Rather, His hands are wide open: He bestows as He wishes. Surely many of them will be increased by what has been sent to you from your Lord in rebellion and unfaith, and We have cast enmity and hatred amongst them until the Day of Resurrection. Every time they ignite the flames of war, Allah puts them out. They seek to cause corruption on the earth, and Allah does not like the agents of corruption. Had the People of the Book believed and been Godwary, We would surely have absolved them of their misdeeds and admitted them into gardens of bliss. (Surah 5:63-65)

"Have they not seen that We have created for them —of what Our hands have worked— cattle, so they have become their masters?" (Surah 36:71)

"Have they not seen that We have created for them —of what Our hands have worked— cattle, so they have become their masters?"

Translation has an additive that makes it incorrect. The verse literally says "what we have made with Our Hands". Allah could have use the word qadr and it's conjugated forms and derivatives, as He has done throughout the Qur'an. Why not now?

4 minutes ago, al-Muttaqin said:

For Face of Allah: 

To Allah belong the east and the west: so whichever way you turn, there is the face of Allah! Allah is indeed all-bounteous, all-knowing. (Surah 2:115)

And do not invoke another god besides Allah; there is no god except Him. Everything is to perish except His Face. All judgement belongs to Him, and to Him you will be brought back. (28:88)

To which seems to denote two things; 1. God's omnipresence and 2. The Prophets and Imams (who are Khalifa - Surah 22:30)

Go to Surah Rahman, verses 26-27 and explain that. 

Also explain Surah Qiyamah, verses 22-23.

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وَلَم يَكُن لَهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ

wa-lam yakun lahū kufuwan ʾaḥad

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2 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Go to Surah Rahman, verses 26-27 and explain that. 

Also explain Surah Qiyamah, verses 22-23.

Surah 55:26-27 is the same meaning at 28:88.

Surah 75:22-23 is referring to the theophanic nature of Jannah. Imam Ali says that even in Jannah you don't see Allah, be cause Allah cannot be seen. 

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1 minute ago, Mahdavist said:

On the fact that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is All Seeing and All Hearing?

Yes of course. It's in the Qur'an and the hadith, as already referenced by others in this thread . 

No, no. All Muslims agree on this. I mean what we agreed upon. Again, it is nonsensical for me to ask for you to speak on behalf of all Shi'a, but I am asking generally.

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32 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

It was not nonsensical

It was double-speak and pure nonsense that answered nothing and convinced me you are farid. Politicians double-speak, people who liked that post (and in my ignore list) also do it habitually. Its a waste of time. You people only value "winning" arguments or continue the argument for the sake of the argument, being dishonest. You only do yourselves the harm.

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