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In the Name of God بسم الله

How does Allah see and hear?

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3 minutes ago, Warilla said:

So again you told us what it is not (which I agree with) But to say it is literal you need to define that literal thing.

But you are insisting on using the word literal. So please define this literal hand, face, seeing hearing. So that we may all use it.

Literal as in the sense it exists.

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Imam Jafar al-Sadiq, peace with him, has said, “He, the most Exalted One, is Hearing and Seeing. He hears without a faculty, sees without a tool. Rather, He hears by Himself, sees by Himself Imam

Lol! Like a lot of other spectators, I'm sitting back and watching/reading whilst the drama unfolds. To be fair, it's quite an interesting topic, which if we dare to be honest, must have crossed

Read the underlined and bold paragraph:   Additional (not necessary) reading:    

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5 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Literal as in the sense it exists.

A metaphor can also exist. It can exist on paper, or on hard drive, or as a thought in your mind.

So that definition doesn't help.

Why don't you just accept it's not literal. And in absence of evidence for the metaphor. We simply say we do not know. If someone supplies evidence for that metaphor accept or reject it based on the evidence.

 

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3 minutes ago, Warilla said:

A metaphor can also exist. It can exist on paper, or on hard drive, or as a thought in your mind.

So that definition doesn't help.

Why don't you just accept it's not literal. And in absence of evidence for the metaphor. We simply say we do not know. If someone supplies evidence for that metaphor accept or reject it based on the evidence.

A metaphor is used in place of something that is not in the literal sense or does not exist; figuratively - so not necessarily.

"That man has the strength of a lion!"

Does he literally have the strength of a lion? No. Does the metaphor mean it exists? No, because the man does not have the strength of a lion and he never will. It is used to represent something, not quite literally mean it.

"His voice is booming like thunder." 

Does the man have the literal voice of thunder? No. Does the metaphor mean his voice exists as thunder? No, because the man does not have the voice of thunder and never will. Therefore, the metaphor is not existent because it is not literal; the definition of it means that it is a representative of something that is literal - which, in turn, does not exist.

This is not something hard to digest. Again, I give the same argument: clocks have hands. We have hands. Is the hand of the clock and the hand of the human the same? It would appear not. Therefore, we can conclude that Allah has ascribed these parts that are not similar whatsoever to us, but they do exist. It cannot be metaphorically because that means they do not exist. If Allah says he is the Ever-Living, that entails He exists and is not a metaphor. You cannot pick and choose what is and what is not a metaphor.

You ask why do I not accept it is not literal? Because the Qur'an never states it is not literal. You can say it is until the cows come home, but that does not change the fact of the matter that it does not say it is a metaphor. Allah exists and so do these parts He has mentioned - just not as how we know it. I do not know how, but I know they are there - simple. This is a concept we both already agreed upon, so I do not know why we are still discussing it.

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12 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

.

"That man has the strength of a lion!"

Does he literally have the strength of a lion? No. Does the metaphor mean it exists? No, because the man does not have the strength of a lion and he never will. It is used to represent something, not quite literally mean it..

Ok I think the problem here is English.

So in your example the man may not have the strength of a lion but his strength exists. It can be measured and compared. 

Allah's hand is a metaphor for power his power exists.

As for seeing and hearing I found no evidence for a metaphor. So I can't says its a metaphor. But it's definitely not any literal meaning of seeing it hearing we can give .

As for the definition of exists it is to vague. As a stated a metaphor can exist 

Now if by exist you mean a physical or energy based existence only.

 

Then I would be very keen to here about this "literal" existence of Allah hands and face and seeing and hearing.

 

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Just now, Warilla said:

Ok I think the problem here is English.

So in your example the nan may not have the strength of a lion but his strength exists. It can be measured and compared. 

Allah's hand is a metaphor for power his power exists.

As for seeing and hearing I found no evidence for a metaphor. So I can't says its a metaphor. But it's definitely not any literal meaning of seeing it hearing we can give .

As for the definition of exists it is to vague. As a stated a metaphor can exist 

Now if by exist you mean an physical or energy based existence only.

Then I would be very keen to here about the existence of Allah hands and face and seeing and hearing.

No, but can a man with the literal strength of a lion exist? No. Can a man with the literal voice of thunder exist? No. The usage of metaphors exist, but the metaphor alluded to in itself cannot exist. This is impossible and redundant as it is said.

If Allah's hand is a metaphor for his power, prove that to me from the Qur'an/Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him). Show me one narration from any of our books where this is metaphorical.

Quote

As for seeing and hearing I found no evidence for a metaphor. So I can't says its a metaphor. But it's definitely not any literal meaning of seeing it hearing we can give .

This is exactly my argument with a different variables. 

Quote

Now if by exist you mean an physical or energy based existence only.

Energy is created, as it requires the universe to exist and the universe came into existence. Energy is part of creation and physicality requires things to be in the universe, not outside of it. Moreso, according to the physics definition of the word "thing", it requires things to be within the universe - not outside of it. So again - moot point. It is better to say we do not know and it exists as Allah has said it does. It is that simple. Nothing within the universe or creation compares to Allah and will never be able to. He sees and hears, but not like us. He has hands and a face, though not like us. If you accept He sees and hears, then does that mean you accept He has eyes and ears like us? Of course not. Apply the same logic and be consistent all-round instead of cherry-picking. 

We are literally saying the same thing. Going back and forth is pointless.

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6 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

1)If Allah's hand is a metaphor for his power, prove that to me from the Qur'an/Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him). Show me one narration from any of our books where this is metaphorical.

This is exactly my argument with a different variables. 

 

2)We are literally saying the same thing. Going back and forth is pointless.

1) definitely let's have another thread on, although it may not be just your books, it's still worth discussing.

2) I agree

It's semantics. But I stand by the fact it's not literal seeing and hearing as literal seeing and hearing can be defined. Although you rejected my definition but haven't supplied your own. We can agree to disagree on "exist".

On a side note I'm sure with scientific advancement a man with the strength of a lion may be possible. Infact I'd argue the world record holder for Olympic lifting is stronger than a lion in a particularl movment.

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Just now, Warilla said:

It's semantics. But I stand by the fact it's not literal seeing and hearing as literal seeing and hearing can be defined. Although you rejected my definition but haven't supplied your own. We can agree to disagree on "exist".

Literal in the sense that it exists and is Allah. Nothing else needs to be added. We cannot necessarily apply our definitions to Allah because we do not know how He sees or hears, but we know He does. Apply this to whatever else He says about Himself and point in case.

2 minutes ago, Warilla said:

1) definitely let's have another thread on it.

Do not give your own definition. I do not want interpretation. Give the words of Allah or His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) - so much so, that it is clear.

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I know what they mean by literal. Just study their books and you will know @Warilla how they have tried their brain. 

God will put His leg on the hell to close it down. So that it stop saying هل من مزيد

God is literally sitting on the throne. That is what it means by استوى على العرش.

How big is the Kursi & how big is the throne, they have complete measurements.

God comes & goes etc etc.

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45 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

I take His words over your interpretation and meaning.

 

46 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

such as you are claiming

 

 

47 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

If you say Allah hears and sees but not like us

My interpretation and meaning are taken from the teachings of Ahlul Bayt ((عليه السلام)). Like I said though,

1 hour ago, Sabrejet said:

if they simply derive their meanings from the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (which they won't), then their confusion can be cleared.

I see you haven't touched upon Sermon 186. If you read it with an unbiased mind, it will answer a lot of your questions about Tawhid through the words of Bab ul Madina tul Ilm himself. Even if you completely reject that book, just pretend for a moment that it might have something of substance, and go through the Arabic and the English.

 

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3 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Literal in the sense that it exists and is Allah. Nothing else needs to be added. We cannot necessarily apply our definitions to Allah because we do not know how He sees or hears, but we know He does. Apply this to whatever else He says about Himself and point in case.

Do not give your own definition. I do not want interpretation. Give the words of Allah or His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) - so much so, that it is clear.

Sure let's have another thread on the topic of hand meaning power.

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1 minute ago, Sabrejet said:

I see you haven't touched upon Sermon 186. If you read it with an unbiased mind, it will answer a lot of your questions about Tawhid through the words of Bab ul Madina tul Ilm himself. Even if you completely reject that book, just pretend for a moment that it might have something of substance, and go through the Arabic and the English.

I never read religious books in translation. I read the Bible in Hebrew and Greek without the translation as well as the works of the Church Fathers and other religious authorative/scholars figures, just as I read books on Islamic scholars or books in general in Arabic. You never understand things fully if you do otherwise. So I would rather read it in Arabic, if you have the link or source.

2 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

My interpretation and meaning are taken from the teachings of Ahlul Bayt ((عليه السلام)). Like I said though,

1 hour ago, Sabrejet said:

My interpretation is what Allah has portrayed it, Who has more authority over the Ahlul Bayt. Nothing more, nothing less. 'Ali, Hassan, Fatima, Hussein, Ibn 'Abbas, and Zaynad (may Allah be pleased with them all) never described it like this whatsoever.

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5 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

This question is primarily for the Shi'a. I was wondering about this because it is quite paradoxical when they make claims towards the Ahlul Sunnah of saying Allah is an anthropomorphic being. If you say it is metaphorical, this is problematic because this means that Allah does not hear nor see whatsoever [as a metaphor is a representative of something that is not literal, and in this case, the sight and hearing of Allah]. This also contradicts his name al-Hayy, which entails that He is living and has the qualities of living things, albeit not limited nor comparable whatsoever.

So my question is to the Shi'a:

How does Allah see and hear?

How do you see and hear without eyes and ears when you dream? How does the radar, electron microscope or a submarine sonar see, without eyes. In the Qur'an He calls the inanimate earth alive and the animate. "living" disbeliever dead. But you should have known this.

I think your intention is to defend the "Qat! Qat!" hadith of Abu Huraira, you know, where he says his god will be sitting on a chair and his flesh will be hanging from its sides and he will put one of his legs into hell and it will scream and ask the leg be pulled out. So you want to insist that god has limbs, eyes and ears?

Isn't it? :woot:

 

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They can never digest these statements:

نحن وجه الله

نحن اسماء الله الحسنى

They have a definite idea in their minds. God has face, eyes, ears, hands, side, leg, shin, tongue etc. They say He has eyes but his eyes cannot be compared, he has hands but his hands cannot be compared.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has compared his hands with the hands of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). How can hand of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) been metaphorical, see the verses shared by me:

 وَمَا رَمَيْتَ إِذْ رَمَيْتَ وَلَـكِنَّ اللّهَ رَمَى

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُبَايِعُونَكَ إِنَّمَا يُبَايِعُونَ اللَّهَ يَدُ اللَّهِ فَوْقَ أَيْدِيهِمْ 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Warilla said:

As for seeing and hearing I found no evidence for a metaphor. So I can't says its a metaphor. But it's definitely not any literal meaning of seeing it hearing we can give .

Seeing and hearing cqn be a metaphor for his knowledge. He knows everything therefore he 'sees' and 'hears' everything. 

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5 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

you say it is metaphorical, this is problematic because this means that Allah does not hear nor see whatsoever

How did you reach this conclusion and what is even more funny is that your have based your whole thread around this term 'metaphor' without knowing what it means! 

Metaphorical means not literal, but representing an idea or symbolism so again how did you say that Metaphorical = Allah does not see or hear?

 

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Dear Mod team

Please witness that I have not used the haha react in this thread because then these gentlemen complain and accuse me of misconduct. I have not used it therefore, without there being a very strong affinity present for it here. Please bear witness. I am a very good, law abiding citizen of SC. :muslima:

Sorry offtopic but wanted to get it off my chest,

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5 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

How does Allah see and hear?

 

Quote

 

Sermon 179: Eyes cannot see Him…

Dhi’lib al-Yamani asked Amir al-mu'minin whether he had seen Allah, when he replied, "Do I worship one whom I have not seen?" Then he enquired, "How have you seen Him?" Then Amir al-mu'minin replied:

Eyes cannot see Him face to face, but hearts perceive Him through the realities of belief. He is near to things but not (physically) contiguous. He is far from them but not (physically) separate. He is a speaker, but not with reflection. He intends, but not with preparation. He moulds, but not with (the assistance of) limbs. He is subtle but cannot be attributed with being concealed. He is great but cannot be attributed with haughtiness. He sees but cannot be attributed with the sense (of sight). He is Merciful but cannot be attributed with weakness of heart. Faces feel low before His greatness and hearts tremble out of fear of Him.

 

Salaam brother, 

Above sermon is from Nahj ul Balagha. Their are plenty of sermons like this one that can be an answer to this question.

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1 minute ago, Zainuu said:

 

Salaam brother, 

Above sermon is from Nahj ul Balagha. Their are plenty of sermons like this one that can be an answer to this question.

Some people will refuse to even open it because of the existence of Sermon 3. They're missing out on a vast ocean of wisdom and knowledge.

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1 minute ago, Sabrejet said:

Some people will refuse to even open it because of the existence of Sermon 3. They're missing out on a vast ocean of wisdom and knowledge.

But they will definitety open it and bring sermon 146 and sermon 227 to prove something which I don't understand.:D

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2 hours ago, starlight said:

How did you reach this conclusion and what is even more funny is that your have based your whole thread around this term 'metaphor' without knowing what it means! 

Metaphorical means not literal, but representing an idea or symbolism so again how did you say that Metaphorical = Allah does not see or hear?

Quote

so again how did you say that Metaphorical = Allah does not see or hear?

Quote

Metaphorical means not literal, but representing an idea or symbolism

If it is symbolic or pure ideology, it is not literal.

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3 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

How do you see and hear without eyes and ears when you dream? How does the radar, electron microscope or a submarine sonar see, without eyes. In the Qur'an He calls the inanimate earth alive and the animate. "living" disbeliever dead. But you should have known this.

I think your intention is to defend the "Qat! Qat!" hadith of Abu Huraira, you know, where he says his god will be sitting on a chair and his flesh will be hanging from its sides and he will put one of his legs into hell and it will scream and ask the leg be pulled out. So you want to insist that god has limbs, eyes and ears?

Isn't it? :woot:

I can literally hear and see in my dream - as I do in reality. No different. Did I have ears and eyes in my dream?

No, my intention is to see if their is genuine hypocrisy or fallacious arguments that are based on the same thing. If everything is a metaphor based on your reasoning, then Allah does not literally exist because to exist entails being within the context of the universe and He is not in the universe, but outside of it. It is obvious why He calls earth alive. Nonetheless, the Qur'an is clear-cut, concise. It is not a hard concept to swallow. None of these parts are like ours or anything we will ever know of.

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2 hours ago, Zainuu said:

 

Salaam brother, 

Above sermon is from Nahj ul Balagha. Their are plenty of sermons like this one that can be an answer to this question.

So it is basically saying that He is not with sight because sight entails human vision - correct.

The problem then comes in - why is it when Allah says He has hands and a face, the same logic cannot be applied? It is like taking half and leaving the other while the same logic is being applied but reject!

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8 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

This question is primarily for the Shi'a. I was wondering about this because it is quite paradoxical when they make claims towards the Ahlul Sunnah of saying Allah is an anthropomorphic being. If you say it is metaphorical, this is problematic because this means that Allah does not hear nor see whatsoever [as a metaphor is a representative of something that is not literal, and in this case, the sight and hearing of Allah]. This also contradicts his name al-Hayy, which entails that He is living and has the qualities of living things, albeit not limited nor comparable whatsoever.

So my question is to the Shi'a:

How does Allah see and hear?

You have a valid point.  Ibn Arabi also criticizes Mutazilites (modern day Shias) for denying the similitude that exists between us and God precisely by using the, “All Hearing and All-Seeing” that are found in certain verses of the Quran.  


 

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3 hours ago, Cool said:

I know what they mean by literal. Just study their books and you will know @Warilla how they have tried their brain. 

God will put His leg on the hell to close it down. So that it stop saying هل من مزيد

God is literally sitting on the throne. That is what it means by استوى على العرش.

How big is the Kursi & how big is the throne, they have complete measurements.

God comes & goes etc etc.

This is the thing with salafi. They are quick to say others are doing shirk.

But they can't give a literal definition of hand or face as it will be shirk. But they don't want to use metaphors as they would have to admit these kind of ideas and hadith are nonsense.

Same thing with divine designation. They are quick to say that the Prophet didn't appoint any one. But then give no leaway with Abu Bakar caliphate.

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8 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

This question is primarily for the Shi'a. I was wondering about this because it is quite paradoxical when they make claims towards the Ahlul Sunnah of saying Allah is an anthropomorphic being. If you say it is metaphorical, this is problematic because this means that Allah does not hear nor see whatsoever [as a metaphor is a representative of something that is not literal, and in this case, the sight and hearing of Allah]. This also contradicts his name al-Hayy, which entails that He is living and has the qualities of living things, albeit not limited nor comparable whatsoever.

So my question is to the Shi'a:

How does Allah see and hear?

Al-Hayy does not signifies to have same body. It simply says living and eternal. You and animal both are living, so do you guess animals to have similar body as yours ?

The proper word which shall be used for Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is "He knows" as is put by the Holy Quran.

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5 minutes ago, Strange Samurai said:

Al-Hayy does not signifies to have same body. It simply says living and eternal. You and animal both are living, so do you guess animals to have similar body as yours ?

Nobody is saying this. Strawman argument. Reread the thread properly.

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2 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

The point that is being made here, is Shias are being a bit disrespectful to the God’s Speech when they say that a certain verse in the Quran really means something other than what it says.  

Well, Shias do not go against Quran as is my experience about true Shias. Quran says: "We have explained to you with every example". Thus, if you take God's hearing in literal meaning with ears perhaps you have denied him having unlimited power. Ears have a shape and have limitations. So, Shias accept that this saying that God hears means that not through ears but he knows.

 

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10 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

The problem then comes in - why is it when Allah says He has hands and a face, the same logic cannot be applied? It is like taking half and leaving the other while the same logic is being applied but reject!

The logic that applies to eyes and ears and tongue applies to all the senses. 

If you say that Allah has eyes to see, ears to listen and tongue to speak etc etc, you are basically saying that Allah depends on these senses. In that sense, Allah is not absolute and limitless but rather bound to something. Which will destroy the entire argument of a supreme, most powerful absolute Lord.

This is a very basic argument. 

Allah is independent of everything. 

Many muslims accept the nebular hypothesis and Kant's theory on the creation of Universe. But that is absolutely ridiculous. 

Universe is created from nothing. And that nothing points to the non-existence of everything rather than the absence. 

Because even if we consider a cloud or vapors or even a molecule to be the primary object for creation of Universe. The next question would be - where did that object come from? 

Thus, a big question on the absolutivity of Allah.

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Just now, Strange Samurai said:

Well, Shias do not go against Quran as is my experience about true Shias. Quran says: "We have explained to you with every example". Thus, if you take God's hearing in literal meaning with ears perhaps you have denied him having unlimited power. Ears have a shape and have limitations. So, Shias accept that this saying that God hears means that not through ears but he knows.

So, the point is that Shias think they know better how God should have worded thing s in the Quran.  In other words Shias are trying to say, "He doesn't really mean to say hearing and sight, he just means all knowing".  is that it?

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1 minute ago, eThErEaL said:

So, the point is that Shias think they know better how God should have worded thing s in the Quran.  In other words Shias are trying to say, "He doesn't really mean to say hearing and sight, he just means all knowing".  is that it?

Shias accept the verse: "If there were seven oceans and sevens others were to add them, and all the trees would be pen, the word of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) would not have been completely defined by you". 

Now, if you disagree and that you know complete about Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and disagree with Shias that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is not kept by limits rather He limits the entire creation.

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3 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

The logic that applies to eyes and ears and tongue applies to all the senses. 

If God says He has hands in the Quran, then yes it applies there.  We should not say that God intended to mean something other than what he says.  

3 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

If you say that Allah has eyes to see, ears to listen and tongue to speak etc etc, you are basically saying that Allah depends on these senses. In that sense, Allah is not absolute and limitless but rather bound to something. Which will destroy the entire argument of a supreme, most powerful absolute Lord.

This is a different statement.  Nobody says God has eyes to see or ears to hear.

 

3 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Strange Samurai said:

Shias accept the verse: "If there were seven oceans and sevens others were to add them, and all the trees would be pen, the word of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) would not have been completely defined by you". 

Now, if you disagree and that you know complete about Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and disagree with Shias that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is not kept by limits rather He limits the entire creation.

I am not sure ow the verse you brought is relevant.

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