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In the Name of God بسم الله

Sunnnis deliberately mistranslating the Quran & changing its meanings

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feefee_xx

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  1. Chapter 5 aya 6- The changing of `wipe'  وَامْسَحُوا to 'wash' your feet and ankles:

    O believers! When you rise up for prayer, wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, wipe your heads, and wash your feet to the ankles (5:6)

    https://quran.com/5/6 

  2. Chapter 4 aya 24 - The changing of 'muta' اسْتَمْتَعْتُم to 'consummated marriage' with their due dowries:                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also ˹forbidden are˺ married women—except ˹female˺ captives in your possession.1 This is Allah’s commandment to you. Lawful to you are all beyond these—as long as you seek them with your wealth in a legal marriage, not in fornication. Give those you have consummated marriage with their due dowries (4:24)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               https://quran.com/4/24

 

This is misleading to non-Arabic speakers and converts. 

Quran.com is the most popular website to pop up on Google when searching for verses in the Quran, but as you can see they mistranslate to suite their agenda.

When am debating with non-Shia's it becomes very difficult as I am forced to use Shia websites, which then they accuse me of being biased and deceiving for using something that is Shia. Debating becomes a very lengthy process because I first have to explain what the real translation is, which then they have to double check and do their own research on etc etc. understandably the opponent is very dubious. 

 

Also, these are obvious words. There is no way that wipe in Arabic should translate to wash in English. 

I understand that there are (Sunni) traditions that say for example that the Prophet (عليه السلام) washed his feet, but how can a tradition/hadith have more significance that the Holy Quran? These are clear orders and words, nothing ambiguous about them. So if a tradition contradicts the Quran then it should be thrown out. Or at least it should be taken with a grain of salt. We shouldn't resort to hadiths when we have the Quran - with clear verses. 

Can someone please explain, what are the reasons behind this, and what is their justifications?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by starlight
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Zaidi also believe in washing and are Shia.

The opinion is that grammatically it can be both wash and wipe but the hadith supports wash.

I asked a 12er ulema who was a graduate from najaf and he conceded that grammatically it can be wash or wipe but stated the Ahlulbayt taught us to wipe.

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13 hours ago, Warilla said:

Zaidi also believe in washing and are Shia.

The opinion is that grammatically it can be both wash and wipe but the hadith supports wash.

I asked a 12er ulema who was a graduate from najaf and he conceded that grammatically it can be wash or wipe but stated the Ahlulbayt taught us to wipe.

 Have a question. I am a non-arabic speaker. But The Holy Qur'an in the same verse about wudhu, actually uses two different words in both the cases i.e in case of face and hands and in case of feet and ankles. 

If at both the places the instruction is to wash then why different words are used?

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16 hours ago, feefee_xx said:

Chapter 4 aya 24 - The changing of 'muta' اسْتَمْتَعْتُم to 'consummated marriage' with their due dowries:                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also ˹forbidden are˺ married women—except ˹female˺ captives in your possession.1 This is Allah’s commandment to you. Lawful to you are all beyond these—as long as you seek them with your wealth in a legal marriage, not in fornication. Give those you have consummated marriage with their due dowries (4:24)      

Regarding Mutah, their are sunni traditions and also many sunnis accept that Mutah was the part of Islam in the time of The Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

So, their is no question on it. 

And regardin changing of Qur'an:

It won't be accurate to accuse an entire school for this. The salafis and sub-sect propped up by Saudis might be doing this. But again, can't say or accuse. 

Regarding following the websites, it is really really important to keep an old and wonderful book of the Holy Qur'an at home. Though, I too read the Qur'an from App only but no one can change a book though the data on websites and applications can be played around with. 

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14 hours ago, Warilla said:

Zaidi also believe in washing and are Shia.

The opinion is that grammatically it can be both wash and wipe but the hadith supports wash.

I asked a 12er ulema who was a graduate from najaf and he conceded that grammatically it can be wash or wipe but stated the Ahlulbayt taught us to wipe.

How? The verse clearly says to wipe your forehead and feet to the ankle, the Sunni response to this is that it was a established Sunnah of The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to wash his feet, do therefore it is Sunnah to wash

Edited by MaisumAli
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59 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

How? The verse clearly says to wipe your forehead and feet to the ankle, the Sunni response to this is that it was a established Sunnah of The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to wash his feet, do therefore it is Sunnah to wash

 

2 hours ago, Zainuu said:

 Have a question. I am a non-arabic speaker. But The Holy Qur'an in the same verse about wudhu, actually uses two different words in both the cases i.e in case of face and hands and in case of feet and ankles. 

If at both the places the instruction is to wash then why different words are used?

I don't speak Arabic. But I've asked the Sunni zaidi and 12er opinion. And from what I've read and understand. Arabic sentance structure isn't the same as English.

So the feet can be connected to the verb of wash at the start of the sentance. 

So it can read 

O believers! When you rise up for prayer, wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles (5:6)

or

O believers! When you rise up for prayer, wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, (wipe your heads), and your feet to the ankles (5:6)

The bracket shows the break in sentance structure.

 I remember a 12er lecturer who stated neither Sunni or Shia do wudhoo correctly based purely on a simple translation.. As in simple English wipe your feet and wash up to the elbow. 12er start at the elbow. (Topic was on why taqleed is important)

Also If we go just on English translation then Ahlulbayt are the wives. So using grammar to your advantage works both ways

Edited by Warilla
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Then how do you explain the following sentences:

But if you are either ill, travelling, have satisfied a want of nature or have had contact with women and find no water then have recourse to clean earth(Tayyamu) and wipe your faces and your hands

فَامۡسَحُوۡا بِوُجُوۡهِكُمۡ وَاَيۡدِيۡكُمۡ مِّنۡهُ

Now do you wash your face and hands with the earth? It's simply not consistent

50 minutes ago, Warilla said:

we go just on English translation then Ahlulbayt are the wives. So using grammar to your advantage works both ways

How so? Twelvers state that the ayah completely changes who it is addressing to, just like Al Aziz did to Prophet Yusuf in the Quran:

Joseph, ignore this. And, [my wife], ask forgiveness for your sin. Indeed, you were of the sinful."

12:29 Quran

The bold part shows the change, so therefore it is disconnected with the earlier statement

 

Also here is the grammar argument of this verse explained by late brother Toyib(rh):

50 minutes ago, Warilla said:

 

 

On 3/27/2016 at 10:26 AM, أبو فاطمة المحمدي said:

What then about the Prophet's (peace be upon him and his family) understanding of that verse? The Messenger of Allah himself stated that the verse commands the WIPING of the feet, according to this sahih Sunni hadith recorded by Imam Abu Dawud in his Sunan, vol. 2, p. 358, # 858:

حدثنا الحسن بن علي حدثنا هشام بن عبد الملك والحجاج بن منهال قالا حدثنا همام حدثنا إسحق بن عبد الله ابن أبي طلحة عن علي بن يحيى بن خلاد عن أبيه عن عمه رفاعة بن رافع بمعناه قال فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إنها لا تتم صلاة أحدكم حتى يسبغ الوضوء كما أمره الله عز وجل فيغسل وجهه ويديه إلى المرفقين ويمسح برأسه ورجليه إلى الكعبين

Al-Hasan b. 'Ali - Hisham b. 'Abd al-Malik and al-Hajjaj b. Minhal - Hammam - Ishaq b. 'Abd Allah b. Abi Talhah - 'Ali b. Yahya b. Khallad - his father - his uncle, Rifa'ah b. Rafi, with similar meaning (as the previous hadith):

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: "The salat of one of you is not complete until he perfects the wudu as Allah the Most High has ordered him: he washes his face and his hands until the elbows, and he wipes his head and his feet until the ankles."

Shaykh al-Albani grades it "sahih."

Here, the Prophet explicitly and clearly gives us the tafsir of that verse: it commands that the feet must be wiped. Whoever does not do this has a defective wudu.

This is a moot point. The conjunction in Arabic may conjoin the two conjuncts in both their hukm (ruling) and their grammar, or may conjoin them in their hukm (ruling) only without the grammar. Both functions of the coordinating conjunction "wa" are in the Qur'an. For instance, this verse contains the same grammatical format as that of the Verse of Wudu:

وَأَذَانٌ مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ إِلَى النَّاسِ يَوْمَ الْحَجِّ الْأَكْبَرِ أَنَّ اللَّهَ بَرِيءٌ مِّنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ وَرَسُولُهُ فَإِن تُبْتُمْ فَهُوَ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ وَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّكُمْ غَيْرُ مُعْجِزِي اللَّهِ وَبَشِّرِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ

The conjunction has conjoined them in hukm only, and not in grammar. This is exactly what we have in the Verse of Wudu also.

Basically, the Ahl al-Sunnah have no argument, with regards to the Verse of Wudu - neither textual nor grammatical.

 

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6 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

Then how do you explain the following sentences:

But if you are either ill, travelling, have satisfied a want of nature or have had contact with women and find no water then have recourse to clean earth(Tayyamu) and wipe your faces and your hands

فَامۡسَحُوۡا بِوُجُوۡهِكُمۡ وَاَيۡدِيۡكُمۡ مِّنۡهُ

Now do you wash your face and hands with the earth? It's simply not consistent

 

 

No thats for tayyamum it's not grammatically linked to the first sentance. Also there is no disagreement regarding tayyamum.

Also language doesn't need to be consistent there are many irregular verbs etc in English which break rules. Arabic is complex.

Edited by Warilla
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4 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

 

How so? Twelvers state that the ayah completely changes who it is addressing to, just like Al Aziz did to Prophet Yusuf in the Quran:

Joseph, ignore this. And, [my wife], ask forgiveness for your sin. Indeed, you were of the sinful."

12:29 Quran

The bold part shows the change, so therefore it is disconnected with the earlier statement

 

Also here is the grammar argument of this verse explained by late brother Toyib(rh):

 

 

Exactly grammar is required. If a layman just read the English it would appear otherwise.

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9 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

What then about the Prophet's (peace be upon him and his family) understanding of that verse? The Messenger of Allah himself stated that the verse commands the WIPING of the feet, according to this sahih Sunni hadith recorded by Imam Abu Dawud in his Sunan, vol. 2, p. 358, # 858:

Zaidi have hadith from prophet and Ahlulbayt that says wash. Any way it's fiqh. We are not expected to know the ins and outs of jurisprudence so can blindly follow scholars.  As long as their aqeeda makes sense to you 

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Just now, Warilla said:

Zaidi have hadith from prophet and Ahlulbayt that says wash. Any way it's fiqh. We are not expected to know the ins and outs of jurisprudence so can blindly follow scholars.  As long as their aqeeda makes sense to you 

Read the grammar argument brm Toyib puts forward, it leaves no room for any other interpretation

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Just now, MaisumAli said:

Read the grammar argument brm Toyib puts forward, it leaves no room for any other interpretation

Brother I suggest you ask a knowledgeable Shia scholar graduate from najaf or qom as I did and explicitly ask about grammar possibilities. Maybe post back your answer.

And I'll reask the 12er scholars I know about points you raised.

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1 minute ago, Warilla said:

Brother I suggest you ask a knowledgeable Shia scholar graduate from najaf or qom as I did and explicitly ask about grammar possibilities. Maybe post back your answer

Sure, if I get the chance I will, but more likely than not, they will agree with what Br. Toyib says

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1 hour ago, Warilla said:

The bracket shows the break in sentance structure.

This is actually an example of bad grammer. And Allah's words are actually pure and eloquent. 

As for the Arabic context to support my argument, below is a commentary from Tafsir al Mizan by Allama Tabatabai where the arabic is explained:

Quote

QUR’ÃN: and wipe a part of your heads and your feet to the ankles: al-
Mash ( ا
لَ
= َمْسح ْ
to let the hand or any other limb pass over some-thing). They say: 'I wipe the thing'; 'I wiped part of the
thing' (bi-shay’, ب.( َ ىء الش ِ
When this verb is used without preposition it indicates wiping of the whole thing; and when used with the preposition (بـ) bi it denotes partial wiping. The Divine words: "and wipe a part of your heads", show that only a part of the head is to be wiped; however it doesn't show which parts are to be wiped. It is known only from the traditions. Our correct traditions say that it is the front part of the head. The words, wa arjulakum ( وا َر َجلْ ُ
ك َ ُ م ( has been recited in two ways:
1. With kasrah of ل-) ِli-) (wa arjulikum): In this case it is clearly in
conjunction with bi-ru’ūsikum ( ب ر ِسك ِءوُ ُ ,( ْم ُ i.e, "and wipe a part of your heads and your feet." Some people say that this kasrah here has no grammatical significance; it just follows the inflection of the preceding word, bi-ru’ūsikum. But it is a mistake because following in inflection is considered a bad grammar as grammarians have said; and the Divine words should not be taken in such a vulgar way.
2. With fathah of ل َ (-la-) (wa arjulakum). If you read the sentence without any preconceived idea you will see that arjulakum is in conjunction with the grammatical position of bi-ru’ūsikum [which is in dative case and should have
been ru’ūsakum but for the preposition bi]. You will understand that the verse shows the obligatoriness of washing the face and hands and wiping the head
and feet. You will never think that the word: "and your feet" should be connected to the clause: "wash your faces" in the beginning of the verse, while another order to wipe the parts of the heads has already come in between. A man of good literary taste will not try such gymnastics in a speech of high literary value. How can a speaker of high standards agree to say for example: 'I kissed the face of Zayd and his head and touched his shoulder and hands', when he actually want to say that he had kissed the hands also? Numerous traditions for wiping the feet have been narrated from the Imãms of Ahlu 'l-Bayt ((عليه السلام).). As for the traditions of Ahlu 's-Sunnah, they do not purport to explain the wordings of the Qur’ãn; they rather describe the action of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) and fatwã of some companions. However they differ among themselves: 

 

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19 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

This is actually an example of bad grammer. And Allah's words are actually pure and eloquent. 

As for the Arabic context to support my argument, below is a commentary from Tafsir al Mizan by Allama Tabatabai where the arabic is explained:

 

Ive read this from Tafsir Mizan before. I've also read explanation from Sunni and Zaidi scholars. 

I do t have the knowledge to agree or disagree with any if the explanation as I can't even speak basic Arabic.

It would be like 2 PhD physicists explaining there theories with eloquence and a guy who can't count trying to work out who us right.

I've done my part by asking scholars from different sects. And I did get an opinion from on even a 12er and Sunni saying both grammar possibilities are viable. So I'm happy with the zaidi opinion. 

Edited by Warilla
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10 minutes ago, Warilla said:

And I did get an opinion from on even a 12er and Sunni saying both grammar possibilities are viable.

YesI agree  we can't have a talk on this by ourselves. And even scholars within both the schools have differences in interpretation. 

But to me, the instruction of wiping seems quite reasonable (Arabic apart) because putting up unnecessary brackets and making the text ambiguous is not the way of Allah. Quran is a clear sign and book of guidance.

Absolutely no problem with your findings on this. And I don't even want to dig into this. 

Edited by Zainuu
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On 11/23/2020 at 7:55 AM, feefee_xx said:
  1. Chapter 5 aya 6- The changing of `wipe'  وَامْسَحُوا to 'wash' your feet and ankles:

    O believers! When you rise up for prayer, wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, wipe your heads, and wash your feet to the ankles (5:6)

    https://quran.com/5/6 

  2. Chapter 4 aya 24 - The changing of 'muta' اسْتَمْتَعْتُم to 'consummated marriage' with their due dowries:                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also ˹forbidden are˺ married women—except ˹female˺ captives in your possession.1 This is Allah’s commandment to you. Lawful to you are all beyond these—as long as you seek them with your wealth in a legal marriage, not in fornication. Give those you have consummated marriage with their due dowries (4:24)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               https://quran.com/4/24

 

This is misleading to non-Arabic speakers and converts. 

Quran.com is the most popular website to pop up on Google when searching for verses in the Quran, but as you can see they mistranslate to suite their agenda.

When am debating with non-Shia's it becomes very difficult as I am forced to use Shia websites, which then they accuse me of being biased and deceiving for using something that is Shia. Debating becomes a very lengthy process because I first have to explain what the real translation is, which then they have to double check and do their own research on etc etc. understandably the opponent is very dubious. 

 

Also, these are obvious words. There is no way that wipe in Arabic should translate to wash in English. 

I understand that there are (Sunni) traditions that say for example that the Prophet (عليه السلام) washed his feet, but how can a tradition/hadith have more significance that the Holy Quran? These are clear orders and words, nothing ambiguous about them. So if a tradition contradicts the Quran then it should be thrown out. Or at least it should be taken with a grain of salt. We shouldn't resort to hadiths when we have the Quran - with clear verses. 

Can someone please explain, what are the reasons behind this, and what is their justifications?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

saudi arabia was caught changing the translation of the quran to legitimise israel.

They will brainwash upcoming generantions. It was caught with over 300 deliberate mistranslations.

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On 12/4/2020 at 8:25 PM, YaAli.313 said:

saudi arabia was caught changing the translation of the quran to legitimise israel.

They will brainwash upcoming generantions. It was caught with over 300 deliberate mistranslations.

Seriously is this the level of shia intellect? Oh my!

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On 11/22/2020 at 3:55 PM, feefee_xx said:
  1. Chapter 5 aya 6- The changing of `wipe'  وَامْسَحُوا to 'wash' your feet and ankles:

    O believers! When you rise up for prayer, wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, wipe your heads, and wash your feet to the ankles (5:6)

    https://quran.com/5/6 

  2. Chapter 4 aya 24 - The changing of 'muta' اسْتَمْتَعْتُم to 'consummated marriage' with their due dowries:                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Also ˹forbidden are˺ married women—except ˹female˺ captives in your possession.1 This is Allah’s commandment to you. Lawful to you are all beyond these—as long as you seek them with your wealth in a legal marriage, not in fornication. Give those you have consummated marriage with their due dowries (4:24)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               https://quran.com/4/24

 

This is misleading to non-Arabic speakers and converts. 

Quran.com is the most popular website to pop up on Google when searching for verses in the Quran, but as you can see they mistranslate to suite their agenda.

When am debating with non-Shia's it becomes very difficult as I am forced to use Shia websites, which then they accuse me of being biased and deceiving for using something that is Shia. Debating becomes a very lengthy process because I first have to explain what the real translation is, which then they have to double check and do their own research on etc etc. understandably the opponent is very dubious. 

 

Also, these are obvious words. There is no way that wipe in Arabic should translate to wash in English. 

I understand that there are (Sunni) traditions that say for example that the Prophet (عليه السلام) washed his feet, but how can a tradition/hadith have more significance that the Holy Quran? These are clear orders and words, nothing ambiguous about them. So if a tradition contradicts the Quran then it should be thrown out. Or at least it should be taken with a grain of salt. We shouldn't resort to hadiths when we have the Quran - with clear verses. 

Can someone please explain, what are the reasons behind this, and what is their justifications?

I can explain. They don’t follow the Sunnah or Rasul Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), they follow the Sunnah or their master Umar. Umar banned Mut’ah, and he changed the the religion. Anas Ibn Malik even says that nothing of the original religion was left,

Narrated Az-Zuhri that he visited Anas bin Malik at Damascus and found him weeping and asked him why he was weeping. He replied, "I do not know anything which I used to know during the life-time of Allah's Apostle except this prayer which is being lost (not offered as it should be)."

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/9/9

They changed the religion and now they are doing their best to change the Quran, but they forgot that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has completed his Nur, even if the disbelievers hate it.

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