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In the Name of God بسم الله

Several questions

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Guest sumsoul

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Guest sumsoul

Assalaamu alaikum,

I'm posting as a guest because the forum won't let me register with my email for some reason... Anyway, I've spent the past 10 years of my life being a twelver shia and I've gotten to the point where I feel like I don't have the evidence I thought I had to prove I'm following the true path of Islam. I've made a similar thread on a sunni website and I'm hoping they'll respond to me with their point of view inshaAllah.

So my questions

1) There's a difference of opinion among shia and sunni scholars regarding what the quran means when it mentions that ibrahim became an imam. i'm aware of the shia view, however, the sunni view seems to be that it means he became a leader for all monotheists. Why should I accept the shia view instead of the sunni view here?

2) Shia scholars use verse 5:55 to prove that imam ali has an authority over the believers, however, despite the fact that there are sunni narrations which also may say the same, other narrations of theirs may say that it's about the believers in general or abu bakr. On what basis should I agree with it being about imam ali?

3) It is true that authentic sunni narrations speak about 12 caliphs, but there are variant narrations of the hadith, including those which say things such as "This religion will be at a state of glory, fortified until the passing of twelve caliphs". Sunnis, can use the variants to say things such as these narrations will show us islam was anything but glorious during the times of the twelve Imams. Yes, I'm aware that they have a disagreement regarding who the caliphs are, I'm not saying their narrative isn't problematic, however, just because we believe in 12 caliphs as shia, it doesn't mean that we're upon the truth, the identity of those individual caliphs must be proven. Also, are shia scholars only choosing authentic narrations that suit their narrative? For example, why reject the sunni narration about the caliphate only lasting for about 30 years or so?

4) In theological instructions, ayatullah mesbah yazdi uses a narration by a companion called jabir (which he doesn't provide a reference for) that mentions the prophet saying who the 12 caliphs are by name. I find this to be problematic in that if it was so clear and well known from the prophet's time, why was there genuine confusion regarding the numbers of the imams, or who their identities were? Other shia scholars have tried to refer to the sunni work of a hanafi scholar called qunduzi who mentions the who the 12 are. What evidence do we have that such work is reliable other than shia scholars saying so?

5) From what I've read in al kafi, the narrations that prove who the imams are by nass start with either imam al baqir or imam al sadiq. They pre-suppose the imamah of these men and take their word for the evidence of the imams before them, leading up to their imamah. Do we have any reliable evidence to prove each of the 12 imams individually without pre-supposing their authority?

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Wa 'alaykum assalaam warahmatullahi wabarakatuhu, dear brother. I pray you are fine. All praise is due to Allah for this crossing of ours. 

You are asking valid questions, but I am unsure if you would like me to answer them or you had separate questions on the Sunni forum. Nonetheless, I will be happy to answer your questions from what little knowledge I have or ask my teachers so they can respond to you. 

Your questions are excellent questions, no doubt. Do not stop doing so, for the truth is objective with no squander. May Allah guide you to the truth, wherever it may be - ameen thumma ameen.

Let me know if you need anything, Allah willing. I am always happy to help in whatever way I can.

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1 hour ago, Guest sumsoul said:

Assalaamu alaikum,

I'm posting as a guest because the forum won't let me register with my email for some reason... Anyway, I've spent the past 10 years of my life being a twelver shia and I've gotten to the point where I feel like I don't have the evidence I thought I had to prove I'm following the true path of Islam. I've made a similar thread on a sunni website and I'm hoping they'll respond to me with their point of view inshaAllah

:bismillah:

:salam:

Welcome to the forum! I hope you get that problem sorted out quick! So if I may ask, are you a convert to Imami Shiaism? Because I doubt your ten, also may I ask which sunni forum you asked on, I would like to see thier replies aswell iA

1 hour ago, Guest sumsoul said:

) There's a difference of opinion among shia and sunni scholars regarding what the quran means when it mentions that ibrahim became an imam. i'm aware of the shia view, however, the sunni view seems to be that it means he became a leader for all monotheists. Why should I accept the shia view instead of the sunni view here

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is the difference in views on that specific verse, I think all Sunnis agree that he is the Imam for all of mankind, because the verse itself says:

جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ اِمَامًا

جَاعِلُكَ= (am) the One to make you

لِلنَّاسِ=for the Mankind

اِمَامًا= a leader

So I don't really think there is any dispute about this fact

1 hour ago, Guest sumsoul said:

) Shia scholars use verse 5:55 to prove that imam ali has an authority over the believers, however, despite the fact that there are sunni narrations which also may say the same, other narrations of theirs may say that it's about the believers in general or abu bakr

I have never seen a single sunni narration that says it was Abu Bakr who gave the ring, please do correct me if I'm wrong

1 hour ago, Guest sumsoul said:

On what basis should I agree with it being about imam ali?

Well it's quite simple actually, if your sunni, then you accept the Sunni interpretation of this Ayah, if your Shia, then you take the Shia interpretation of this Ayah, the same thing can be said for both sides, now that's up to you as to who's hadith and tafsir collections you wish to follow, which is an entirely different debate

1 hour ago, Guest sumsoul said:

3) It is true that authentic sunni narrations speak about 12 caliphs, but there are variant narrations of the hadith, including those which say things such as "This religion will be at a state of glory, fortified until the passing of twelve caliphs". Sunnis, can use the variants to say things such as these narrations will show us islam was anything but glorious during the times of the twelve Imams

Yes, it is quite well known throughout both sects that there will be 12 Rightly Guided "Caliphs"/ "Imams" (take your pick), that we be from Quraish, the Shias know their 12 leaders while the Sunnis don't, now that doesn't mean that Shias are right, but rather it is just a fact

1 hour ago, Guest sumsoul said:

lso, are shia scholars only choosing authentic narrations that suit their narrative? For example, why reject the sunni narration about the caliphate only lasting for about 30 years or so?

Quite simple, because it is a Sunni tradition, we don't take our knowledge from the books of the Ahle Sunnah, we consider their books to be untrustworthy, and they say the same vice versa

1 hour ago, Guest sumsoul said:

I find this to be problematic in that if it was so clear and well known from the prophet's time, why was there genuine confusion regarding the numbers of the imams, or who their identities were

Sorry, I will only answer the questions I am fully comfortable with, I don't want to give you an answer which would be unorthodox to the correct answer, so perhaps a knowledgeable brother/sister can answer this question for you, but what I will say is, it is proven though Sahih traditions that The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said I am leaving behind Quran and Ahlebayt(عليه السلام), now the Sunnis say that he meant to take care of them, and Shias say that it means follow them, either way, The Ummah completely failed at doing both, they didn't take heed or take care of the Ahlebayt (عليه السلام) at all, but rather hurt them! Now The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) made it very clear didn't he? Then why did they face such hardships? Does that negate this tradition?

1 hour ago, Guest sumsoul said:

Other shia scholars have tried to refer to the sunni work of a hanafi scholar called qunduzi who mentions the who the 12 are. What evidence do we have that such work is reliable other than shia scholars saying so?

I'm sorry, but I think you have been misinformed, we have a Sahih narrations from Imam Ali(عليه السلام)(Relayed by Imam as Sadiq(as)) that names all the 12 Imams in Al Kafi, if you would like to see, I would be more than happy to show you, secondly, we have entire chapters in Al Kafi dedicated to prove the Imamah of a certain Imam after the other, please see chapters 65-76 in the Volume 1 of Al Kafi and you will see they are filled with narrations to prove that this Imam comes after the previous, and we haven't even gotten to other books like, Kitāb Al Ghaybah(Numani) that have traditions upon traditions that show the 12 Imams after The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), so in conclusion we have clear proofs that point to the 12 Imams.

1 hour ago, Guest sumsoul said:

Do we have any reliable evidence to prove each of the 12 imams individually without pre-supposing their authority?

Yes please refer to the above post

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Guest sumsoul
9 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

:bismillah:

:salam:

Welcome to the forum! I hope you get that problem sorted out quick! So if I may ask, are you a convert to Imami Shiaism? Because I doubt your ten, also may I ask which sunni forum you asked on, I would like to see thier replies aswell iA

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is the difference in views on that specific verse, I think all Sunnis agree that he is the Imam for all of mankind, because the verse itself says:

جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ اِمَامًا

جَاعِلُكَ= (am) the One to make you

لِلنَّاسِ=for the Mankind

اِمَامًا= a leader

So I don't really think there is any dispute about this fact

I have never seen a single sunni narration that says it was Abu Bakr who gave the ring, please do correct me if I'm wrong

Well it's quite simple actually, if your sunni, then you accept the Sunni interpretation of this Ayah, if your Shia, then you take the Shia interpretation of this Ayah, the same thing can be said for both sides, now that's up to you as to who's hadith and tafsir collections you wish to follow, which is an entirely different debate

Yes, it is quite well known throughout both sects that there will be 12 Rightly Guided "Caliphs"/ "Imams" (take your pick), that we be from Quraish, the Shias know their 12 leaders while the Sunnis don't, now that doesn't mean that Shias are right, but rather it is just a fact

Quite simple, because it is a Sunni tradition, we don't take our knowledge from the books of the Ahle Sunnah, we consider their books to be untrustworthy, and they say the same vice versa

Sorry, I will only answer the questions I am fully comfortable with, I don't want to give you an answer which would be unorthodox to the correct answer, so perhaps a knowledgeable brother/sister can answer this question for you, but what I will say is, it is proven though Sahih traditions that The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said I am leaving behind Quran and Ahlebayt(عليه السلام), now the Sunnis say that he meant to take care of them, and Shias say that it means follow them, either way, The Ummah completely failed at doing both, they didn't take heed or take care of the Ahlebayt (عليه السلام) at all, but rather hurt them! Now The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) made it very clear didn't he? Then why did they face such hardships? Does that negate this tradition?

I'm sorry, but I think you have been misinformed, we have a Sahih narrations from Imam Ali(عليه السلام)(Relayed by Imam as Sadiq(as)) that names all the 12 Imams in Al Kafi, if you would like to see, I would be more than happy to show you, secondly, we have entire chapters in Al Kafi dedicated to prove the Imamah of a certain Imam after the other, please see chapters 65-76 in the Volume 1 of Al Kafi and you will see they are filled with narrations to prove that this Imam comes after the previous, and we haven't even gotten to other books like, Kitāb Al Ghaybah(Numani) that have traditions upon traditions that show the 12 Imams after The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), so in conclusion we have clear proofs that point to the 12 Imams.

Yes please refer to the above post

Thanks for your reply. Apologies if I don't reply to everyone here as there are already several posts. I come from a family that is shia by culture, I started practising islam when I was 16 and made the decision to become a twelver shia when I was 18. With all due respect, but there are people who spend decades of their lives having the conviction of being a twelver shia, but time isn't an indication of knowledge. I posted a different set of questions on the twelvershia forum, they've yet to approve my post. Would you like me to share the questions from there?

 

I don't know how to quote individual points, so I've just quoted the whole thing.

1) The difference in opinion regarding their view on Ibrahim becoming an Imam is that they acknowledge Ibrahim became a leader for all of mankind, or for all monotheists. Not that it was a divine rank that was given to him.

If you read The Study Quran by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, it mentions that there are various views regarding who is in authority as well as the Prophet. Some scholars say it refers to the believers in general, some about abu bakr and that it's widely reported about being imam ali, however, widely reported doesn't necessarily make it sahih or mutawatir. Of course, we can go there into sources and look at what's being said beyond The Study Quran inshaAllah.

If the shia don't consider the books of the sunnis to be trustworthy, then why take anything from them at all? What is our methodology for saying that we accept a specific variant of the hadith regarding 12 caliphs, reject other variants and other narrations which say the caliphate will only last for a specific amount of time?

Sunnis have their own views regarding hadith al thaqalayn. Of course, there's no doubt that the ahlulbayt were mistreated, I don't think even a fair sunni would reject that. However, given the dispute in understanding, it would be difficult to use this hadith as evidence.

I have a physical copy of the first volume of al kafi that's translated in english and I've read the some of the other chapters online. Yes, we do have narrations from Imam al Sadiq (and Imam al Baqir if my memory serves me right) that talk about the previous Imams, as well as other narrations which confirm who future Imams will be according to those narrations, however, the narrations regarding the Imams pre Baqir and Sadiq pre-suppose you believe in their Imamah to accept what they've said about who the previous Imams and their successors are as being true. Let me put it this way, how do I know that Imam al Baqir and Imam al Sadiq are the rightful imams, because we have narrations from them that says so? That would be a circular argument.

Please share what you've seen in kitab al ghaybah that convinces you.

 

Thank you.

 

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3 hours ago, Guest sumsoul said:

I posted a different set of questions on the twelvershia forum, they've yet to approve my post. Would you like me to share the questions from there?

Yes please, that would be quite nice

3 hours ago, Guest sumsoul said:

don't know how to quote individual points, so I've just quoted the whole thing

Oh it's quite simple actually, you just highlight or select a specific text, and then you should get a little bar that says "Quote Text"

3 hours ago, Guest sumsoul said:

Not that it was a divine rank that was given to him

Yes, that can be argued depending on the context thou, we see before Allah makes Ibrahim(عليه السلام) an Imam, he (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says: 

Quote

The () is my personal commentary

وَإِذِ

And when

ٱبۡتَلَىٰٓ

tried ,(meaning Ibrahim was tested)

إِبۡرَٰهِـۧمَ

Ibrahim

رَبُّهُۥ

his Lord

بِكَلِمَٰتٖ

with words

فَأَتَمَّهُنَّۖ

and he fulfilled them, (Ibrahim passed the tests here)

قَالَ

He said

إِنِّي

Indeed I

جَاعِلُكَ

The One to make you, (A very crucial point here, Allah says he will 'make' Ibrahim an Imam, which he wasn't previously, he was just a Prophet)

لِلنَّاسِ

for the mankind, (This refutes the notion that he was just an Imam for the Monotheist

إِمَامٗاۖ

an Imam

 

It also doesn't end there, Ibrahim then proceeds to make a Dua to Allah:

 

When Abraham asked: “And is this covenant also for my descendants?” the Lord responded: “My covenant does not embrace the wrong-doers.”

 

Meaning Immamah isnt just a reward given to Ibrahim, rather it was a covenant taken by Ibrahim, and further extended to his descendants, which should refute the notion of Imamah being normal leadership, but rather proves the notion that it is in fact indeed a divine position given by Allah to whomever he wills, and also do note that Ibrahim was already a Prophet, and after he passed the test given by Allah he became an Imam, hence this is the reason why the Imamis consider the position of Imamah higher that Nabuwah

3 hours ago, Guest sumsoul said:

f you read The Study Quran by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, it mentions that there are various views regarding who is in authority as well as the Prophet. Some scholars say it refers to the believers in general, some about abu bakr and that it's widely reported about being imam ali, however, widely reported doesn't necessarily make it sahih or mutawatir. Of course, we can go there into sources and look at what's being said beyond The Study Quran inshaAllah

End all be all is that this verse refers specifically to Imam Ali for Shias, and for Sunnis it is for general believers, Shias and Sunnis have a dispute in opinion Huh?! But yeah, we Shias don't judge our faith based on Sunnis

3 hours ago, Guest sumsoul said:

f the shia don't consider the books of the sunnis to be trustworthy, then why take anything from them at all? What is our methodology for saying that we accept a specific variant of the hadith regarding 12 caliphs, reject other variants and other narrations which say the caliphate will only last for a specific amount of time

We don't lol, we have our own traditions Alhamdullilah, and have no need to borrow things from the books of others, also not all of what the Sunnis repost is untrustworthy and untrue, if the matn(text) of the tradition agrees with our aqeeda then that doesn't mean The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) didn't say it

3 hours ago, Guest sumsoul said:

However, given the dispute in understanding, it would be difficult to use this hadith as evidence

Why not? It fits in perfectly, The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said 'take care of my Ahlulbayt right'(according to the Sunnis), so if the position of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) was so clear, then why did people mistreat them? Why did they have to fight wars? Does this mean The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) didn't say this?

3 hours ago, Guest sumsoul said:

Let me put it this way, how do I know that Imam al Baqir and Imam al Sadiq are the rightful imams, because we have narrations from them that says so? That would be a circular argument

Lol the same can be said about Allah, is Allah Rahman and Raheem because the Quran says so? Is Allah one because The Quran says so? Is Muhammed the Prophet because the Quran says so? Wouldn't that too be a circular argument? As for why I think The 5th and 6th Imams are rightful Imams is because, The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said so lol, so therefore it is the Word of Allah

3 hours ago, Guest sumsoul said:

Please share what you've seen in kitab al ghaybah that convinces you

No my point was is that Kitāb Al Ghaybah also contains many traditions that state the 12 Imams

3 hours ago, Guest sumsoul said:

twelvershia forum

Hmm... Interesting name for a Sunni forum huh? :)

Edited by MaisumAli
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Guest Sumsoul

Sorry, but I don't quite understand the relevance of the first part of your reply. Are you assuming that my understanding of leadership after the Prophet is only political?

 

Yes, people can have different standards for accepting or rejecting narrations. I don't hold the position that in order for something to make sense, it must be backed by a strong chain of narrators. Rather, I'm asking why have our twelver Shia scholars accepted one variant of a narration that's authentic according to Sunnis, but reject the other variants and other narrations about the caliphate lasting for a specific number of years? 

The hadith you've shared pre-supposes belief in the Imamah of Imam Al Sadiq and those before him. 

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Guest SumSoul
15 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

Yes please, that would be quite nice

Oh it's quite simple actually, you just highlight or select a specific text, and then you should get a little bar that says "Quote Text"

Yes, that can be argued depending on the context thou, we see before Allah makes Ibrahim(عليه السلام) an Imam, he (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says: 

وَإِذِ

And when

ٱبۡتَلَىٰٓ

tried ,(meaning Ibrahim was tested)

إِبۡرَٰهِـۧمَ

Ibrahim

رَبُّهُۥ

his Lord

بِكَلِمَٰتٖ

with words

فَأَتَمَّهُنَّۖ

and he fulfilled them, (Ibrahim passed the tests here)

قَالَ

He said

إِنِّي

Indeed I

جَاعِلُكَ

The One to make you, (A very crucial point here, Allah says he will 'make' Ibrahim an Imam, which he wasn't previously, he was just a Prophet)

لِلنَّاسِ

for the mankind, (This refutes the notion that he was just an Imam for the Monotheist

إِمَامٗاۖ

an Imam

 

It also doesn't end there, Ibrahim then proceeds to make a Dua to Allah:

 

When Abraham asked: “And is this covenant also for my descendants?” the Lord responded: “My covenant does not embrace the wrong-doers.”

 

Meaning Immamah isnt just a reward given to Ibrahim, rather it was a covenant taken by Ibrahim, and further extended to his descendants, which should refute the notion of Imamah being normal leadership, but rather proves the notion that it is in fact indeed a divine position given by Allah to whomever he wills, and also do note that Ibrahim was already a Prophet, and after he passed the test given by Allah he became an Imam, hence this is the reason why the Imamis consider the position of Imamah higher that Nabuwah

End all be all is that this verse refers specifically to Imam Ali for Shias, and for Sunnis it is for general believers, Shias and Sunnis have a dispute in opinion Huh?! But yeah, we Shias don't judge our faith based on Sunnis

We don't lol, we have our own traditions Alhamdullilah, and have no need to borrow things from the books of others, also not all of what the Sunnis repost is untrustworthy and untrue, if the matn(text) of the tradition agrees with our aqeeda then that doesn't mean The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) didn't say it

Why not? It fits in perfectly, The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said 'take care of my Ahlulbayt right'(according to the Sunnis), so if the position of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) was so clear, then why did people mistreat them? Why did they have to fight wars? Does this mean The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) didn't say this?

Lol the same can be said about Allah, is Allah Rahman and Raheem because the Quran says so? Is Allah one because The Quran says so? Is Muhammed the Prophet because the Quran says so? Wouldn't that too be a circular argument? As for why I think The 5th and 6th Imams are rightful Imams is because, The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said so lol, so therefore it is the Word of Allah

No my point was is that Kitāb Al Ghaybah also contains many traditions that state the 12 Imams

Hmm... Interesting name for a Sunni forum huh? :)

I'm still having problems with registering an account and quoting parts of your post at a time. Unfortunately, I also have to wait for a moderator to keep approving my posts lol.

Yes, I'm aware of the belief of the Imamah being higher than Nabuwah, I'll ponder more on the verse and give further thoughts to see if I still find it convincing.

We agree that there is truth in sunni texts, just like there can be truth in the old and new testament, however, in your understanding, what is your evidence for proof of the imami aqeedah that doesn't presuppose the aqeedah to be true?

Regarding hadith al thaqalayn, as I've said, it's not like I don't have problems with the sunni narrative, but taking all the other doubts into consideration, I could easily see them making an argument that this isn't proof for the ahlulbayt succeeding the prophet in guidance and leadership of islam.

My belief in Allah and His Oneness begins with intellectual arguments that precede belief in Prophet, Islam, the Quran etc. Yes, there are many attributes that God uses to describe Himself in the Quran, however, I'd argue that at least some of them, like being all powerful, all knowing can be established rationally and the other attributes that are revealed through revelation are in line with our intellect, should we prove the Quran to be true. My belief in the Prophethood of Muhammad isn't based on the Quran stating he's a Prophet. Rather, it's based on him claiming to be a Prophet that's known through history.

Can you please show me these narrations where the Prophet says who the 12 Imams are by name, without relying on the evidence being from the Imams themselves? If that's our logic, then we'd also accept things like "the bible is true because the bible says it's true", or "the evidence that I'm a companion who the Prophet guaranteed heaven for is that I'm narrating that's what the Prophet said"... I hope I've made this part clear inshaAllah.

As for the questions from the other forum:

"1) What counts as a sunni? I've always known during the past 10 years that not all sunnis have the same beliefs, i.e. difference of opinion regarding celebrating the Prophet's birthday, saying Ya Muhammad etc, but in more recent years, I've come to know about various different groups through shia texts, such as the atharis, ash'aris and mu'tazilites. However, it doesn't seem like they all accept each other as sunnis, at least the atharis don't. I'm saying this based on the videos I've seen by abdulrahman hassan. Also, some books of athari aqeeda seem to have issues with them. So who is recognised as a sunni?

2) The athari creed says that they affirm Allah literally has hands and is established above a throne, although in a way that befits his majesty and this is the understanding of the sahaba. How many of the sahaba understood this? How do the athari creed understand the meaning of Allah being one and having different attributes? Do they believe Allah's attributes means that he has parts, even if they're not physical and nothing like His creation?

3) From what I've read on islamqa, the marriage of the prophet to aa'isha is because of a dream that he saw telling him that she would be his wife in this world and the next. This narration is considered as sahih by sunni standards (I'm not knowledgeable in hadith sciences), but what I've noticed is that it's narrated by aa'isha. I genuinely want to understand, how can we accept her own words about this, in praise of her, considering that she lied to the prophet regarding the smell of his breath which caused her to be condemned in the Quran for what she did out of jealousy? I'm not saying that anything she says is to be rejected, but even the twelvershia article acknowledges that she was willing to lie to the Prophet, even if it was out of love to begin with, so how can we trust her to narrate something good about herself?

4) I'm confused as to whether sunnis believe that the prophet appointed abu bakr as his successor based on the narrations of him leading the prayers, or if it was left to the ummah to decide? If it's the former, why did the companions have to gather in saqifa to see who would become the prophet's successor?

5) Were there companions who left Islam and fought abu bakr during his caliphate? If so, how does that affect the way the verses in the Quran which praise the companions are viewed?

6) I've listened to content about the definition of adalah al sahabah which I found interesting. I don't necessarily have a problem with accepting that companions could have committed some major sins and maintained their overall trustworthiness, but I'm struggling to understand how muawiyah fought ali, one of the greatest companions of the prophet, the fourth rightly guided caliph and still maintained his trustworthiness? Also, is it established among sunnis that muawiyah used to curse ali? I think that if christians maintained similar views about the disciplines of jesus, then sunni muslims would criticise them for having such beliefs.

7) What is the strongest opinion as to understanding who the quran referred to in 5:55, other than Allah and the prophet?

8 ) Why is it more logical to accept that ibrahim becoming an imam was that he became a leader for all, rather than having a new divine rank? I've also seen some people argue that even if the imamah is a divine rank, it's only proven to be for prophets. In this case, what is the theological difference between imamah, nabuwah and risalah according to sunnis?"

 

Thank you.

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1 hour ago, Guest SumSoul said:

what is your evidence for proof of the imami aqeedah that doesn't presuppose the aqeedah to be true?

I'm sorry I didn't quite understand your question

1 hour ago, Guest SumSoul said:

Regarding hadith al thaqalayn, as I've said, it's not like I don't have problems with the sunni narrative, but taking all the other doubts into consideration, I could easily see them making an argument that this isn't proof for the ahlulbayt succeeding the prophet in guidance and leadership of islam

The argument is not about what me or they think of Hadith al Thaqlain, but rather the crux of the argument is that if The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) made it clear as to what is the position of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), then why did people mistreat them badly? You have raised the question that if The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) made it clear as to who are the Imams, then why didn't people follow them or why was there confusion? The same could be said about Hadith al Thaqlain, does that make it weak aswell?

1 hour ago, Guest SumSoul said:

My belief in Allah and His Oneness begins with intellectual arguments that precede belief in Prophet, Islam, the Quran etc. Yes, there are many attributes that God uses to describe Himself in the Quran, however, I'd argue that at least some of them, like being all powerful, all knowing can be established rationally and the other attributes that are revealed through revelation are in line with our intellect, should we prove the Quran to be true. My belief in the Prophethood of Muhammad isn't based on the Quran stating he's a Prophet. Rather, it's based on him claiming to be a Prophet that's known through history

Good! That's a start!

1 hour ago, Guest SumSoul said:

Can you please show me these narrations where the Prophet says who the 12 Imams are by name, without relying on the evidence being from the Imams themselves? If that's our logic, then we'd also accept things like "the bible is true because the bible says it's true", or "the evidence that I'm a companion who the Prophet guaranteed heaven for is that I'm narrating that's what the Prophet said"... I hope I've made this part clear inshaAllah.

Gladly! Except that I haven't seen a tradition that mentions them by name though (except for Book of Sulaiym), but that doesn't mean there is no tradition about it:

Al Khisal, v2, ch 81, h 1

(I will only post the relevant bit)

From an authentic chain The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has said:

"As for the smaller weighty thing it is the ally of the Qur`an, and that is Ali b. Abi Talib and his descendants عليهم السلام – the two will not separate until they return to me at the Lake-fount. "

https://thaqalayn.net/chapter/10/3/81

The chain:  حدثنا محمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا محمد بن الحسن الصفار، عن محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب، ويعقوب بن يزيد جميعا، عن محمد بن أبي عمير، عن عبد الله بن سنان، عن معروف بن خربـوذ، عـن أبـيالطفيل عامر بن واثلة، عن حذيفة بن أسيد الغفاري قال

 

Muhammad ibn al-Hassan ibn Ahmad ibn al-Walid - may God be pleased with him - narrated that Muhammad ibn al-Hassan al-Saffar quoted Muhammad ibn al-Hussein ibn Abil-Khat’tab and Yaqoob ibn Yazid, on the authority of Muhammad ibn Abi Umayr, on the authority of Abdullah ibn Sin’an, on the authority of Ma’ruf ibn Kharboz, on the authorityof Abil Tufayl Amer ibn Vasele’, on the authority of Haziqat ibn Asid al-Qaffari

 

(I can do a chain analysis if you want)

 

Sorry it's getting a bit late here, or otherwise I would have posted more

 

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7 hours ago, Guest sumsoul said:

Assalaamu alaikum,

I'm posting as a guest because the forum won't let me register with my email for some reason... Anyway, I've spent the past 10 years of my life being a twelver shia and I've gotten to the point where I feel like I don't have the evidence I thought I had to prove I'm following the true path of Islam. I've made a similar thread on a sunni website and I'm hoping they'll respond to me with their point of view inshaAllah.

So my questions

1) There's a difference of opinion among shia and sunni scholars regarding what the quran means when it mentions that ibrahim became an imam. i'm aware of the shia view, however, the sunni view seems to be that it means he became a leader for all monotheists. Why should I accept the shia view instead of the sunni view here?

2) Shia scholars use verse 5:55 to prove that imam ali has an authority over the believers, however, despite the fact that there are sunni narrations which also may say the same, other narrations of theirs may say that it's about the believers in general or abu bakr. On what basis should I agree with it being about imam ali?

3) It is true that authentic sunni narrations speak about 12 caliphs, but there are variant narrations of the hadith, including those which say things such as "This religion will be at a state of glory, fortified until the passing of twelve caliphs". Sunnis, can use the variants to say things such as these narrations will show us islam was anything but glorious during the times of the twelve Imams. Yes, I'm aware that they have a disagreement regarding who the caliphs are, I'm not saying their narrative isn't problematic, however, just because we believe in 12 caliphs as shia, it doesn't mean that we're upon the truth, the identity of those individual caliphs must be proven. Also, are shia scholars only choosing authentic narrations that suit their narrative? For example, why reject the sunni narration about the caliphate only lasting for about 30 years or so?

4) In theological instructions, ayatullah mesbah yazdi uses a narration by a companion called jabir (which he doesn't provide a reference for) that mentions the prophet saying who the 12 caliphs are by name. I find this to be problematic in that if it was so clear and well known from the prophet's time, why was there genuine confusion regarding the numbers of the imams, or who their identities were? Other shia scholars have tried to refer to the sunni work of a hanafi scholar called qunduzi who mentions the who the 12 are. What evidence do we have that such work is reliable other than shia scholars saying so?

5) From what I've read in al kafi, the narrations that prove who the imams are by nass start with either imam al baqir or imam al sadiq. They pre-suppose the imamah of these men and take their word for the evidence of the imams before them, leading up to their imamah. Do we have any reliable evidence to prove each of the 12 imams individually without pre-supposing their authority?

Salaam Brother,

May Allah be your guide. 

I would start from the second question. As for the first one, I don't exactly know the views. Excuse my ignorance on that. 

2.  Regarding verse 5:55, almost every Shia mufassir (exegete) agrees unanimously that it is about Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

The occasion of the revelation (sabab al-nuzul) mentioned above has been narrated by the  companions including:  'Abdullah Ibn Abbas, Abu Rafi al Madani, Ammar Yasir, Abu Dhar al Ghaffari, Anas bin Malik, Miqdad bin Aswad. From Tabi'un, Muslima b. Kuhayl, 'Utbat b. Abi Hakim, al-Suddi, and Mujahid have narrated this story.

From al-Kafi it has been narrated by Imam al Baqir (عليه السلام) :

Allah ordered his Prophet (s) about the wilayah of Imam 'Ali (a) [after the Prophet (s)] and revealed the al-Wilaya Verse and obligated the obedience of uli l-amr [in the Uli l-Amr Verse], and people did not know what is this wilaya. Allah ordered His Prophet (s) to describe them wilaya as he had described prayer, zakat, fasting, and hajj. The Prophet (s) was worried about people turn from Islam and impugn him, so he referred to His God and Allah revealed al-Tabligh Verse: "O Apostle! Communicate that which has been sent down to you from your Lord, and if you do not, you will not have communicated His message, and Allah shall protect you from the people. Indeed Allah does not guide the faithless lot." So the Prophet (s) publicized the wilaya of 'Ali (a) in Ghadir Khumm and ordered the present to inform the absent.

It is all from wikishia. 

Now, about this verse, their is no evidence or proof of anyone in the entire history of Islam that someone gave zakat in the state of Ruku, this act exclusively belongs to Mawla Ali (عليه السلام). 

3. My friend Islam was glorious in the time of more than 12 Caliphs. Wasn't it glorious during the time of Ottomans? Is it a small thing to defeat the Crusades and take control of Istanbul? Wasn't it glorious in the time of the Fatimid Empire? Let me remind you that Jamiat ul Azhar, was establisged by Fatimids by the name Al-Zehra University. It is a great Islamic center for studies. So, wasn't tgeir time glorious? What about the Safavids? In India, till date most of the historians agree that Akber's rule in the time of Mughals was one of the best rules India has witnessed. So, is that not glory? Even the reign of Abbasids, Mamun and Harun's time and era after that is considered the golden age of Islam?

One more thing, their is a Hadith in Muslim that states that Who dies without the maarefat of the Imam of his time has died in the state of Jahiliyya. These are strong words. We need to be aware about the Imam of our time. And isn't it wrong if we suppose that Allah left us (in this period) without an Imam (authority)? Why are we left without a leader (if we suppose that we don't have one today)? How many political and social implications it brings?

Now, a hadith to prove the 12 Imams. It is called Hadith of Lawh and is narrated from Hazrat Jabir ibn Abdullah al Ansari (رضي الله عنه). Also, the shia belief is that Allah is the only and ultimate wali over us and it's Allah who decides, who will be our Imam just like Allah sends Prophets for guidance. 

Go through this hadith in below link:

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Hadith_al-Lawh

No, the shia scholars don't use Sunni narratives as Proof for themselves. We bring these Hadith in debates because if you want to prove your point it is better to prove it from the book of the opponent. I can show you debates with Atheists where they don't use anything except science and logic to prove the truth of Islam. So, you would say that why are we using the theories of atheist scientists over their??? 

If someone does it what you said, I believe it is wrong and hypocrisy. But it is a manner of debate to bring proofs from the book of the opponent. We also reject the other Hadith they bring through Mantiq, Kalaam and other sciences. In fact, their are books to analyse many such sunni hadith. 

4. Yes, the hadith is from Jabir (رضي الله عنه) but in order to conclude a point most of the scholars avoid the ref. Genuine confusion was their regarding Imams (عليه السلام) because the narration of Hadith and writing down of hadith was banned until Umar bin Abdul Aziz (may Allah be pleased with him) removed that ban. Again, the shia scholars referring to hanafi works must be to verify that it was not the Hadith by Jabir alone but even the hanafis say that. It is a good way to verify your point and make the evidence strong. But the major hadith is from Hazrat Jabir (رضي الله عنه).

5. Hadith al Lawh again. This hadith clarifies that Imams are Hazrat Fatima's (عليه السلام) husband, her two sons and her descendants. And also every Imam (عليه السلام) in his time only stated who will be the Imam after him. 

I hope I answered most of your questions. If you have any doubts, you can ask further. 

May Allah bless you and guide you. 

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Guest Wandering

Just a question for the shias, if Ibrahim as passed tests to achieve Imamate which you believe is higher than prophethood then when did prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) announce that He is going to be an imam AFTER prophethood? Or was He already an imam AND prophet? So both the stations are the same? Furthermore when did the Ahlubaith ra bypass prophecy to attain Imamate?

Thankyou

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Alhamdulillah, I've finally managed to create an account lol. Ok, so I thought I'd use this post a reply to both of the above. I'm going to maintain a position of scepticism towards shiism as a whole, especially twelver shiism, otherwise I'm just confirming a bias I already have and that isn't seeking the truth.

Shiism in my understanding is a counter narrative to sunnism which relies on sunni texts. Yes, the Quran doesn't belong to sunnis, but to my knowledge, shiism heavily relies on sunni literature for a "complete" biography of the Prophet's life from his birth until his death. So, while shia books may have narrations about certain events from the life of Prophet which may agree or disagree with the sunni narrative, the bulk of the information is coming from narrators whose theological position would be classed as sunni. Perhaps, we could even argue that our historical knowledge of the Prophet even claiming to be a Prophet and the transmission of the Quran that goes beyond any doubt is also based on sunni sources. Of course, I'm not arguing that this automatically makes sunnism the correct position, or that everything that's narrated within their literature is authentic, i.e. that which can be rejected based on logic, but I am arguing that we are ultimately heavily relying on their texts.

So then, in order for twelver shiism to be true, we must be able to create a foundation by providing a rational explanation of our beliefs which is based on the Quran and authentic sunni narrations. If there is a disagreement regarding the meanings of the verses of the Quran, we must be able to explain why the sunni understanding is wrong. If this requires having to use sunni sources, then we should know if the sources are acceptable to them and that their interpretation doesn't add up. If there is a difference of opinion regarding what's considered to be authentic among the sunni scholars, we must provide an argument for which opinion we take without providing circular reasoning, i.e. just because it agrees with us.

Based on this, even if I were to find within twelver shia literature, narrations which go directly back to the Prophet which clearly state there will be 12 divinely appointed successors and who they are without a doubt, it would only count as trustworthy evidence for people who have accepted that the twelver shia narrators and their theology is correct which hasn't been established at this point. We wouldn't even be able to use this evidence to disprove why other shia groups, such as the ismaili's are wrong. Why? Because all that's saying is that twelver shiism is correct because twelver shia narrators are saying this is what the Prophet said. It would be like saying the Quran is the word of God because the Quran says it's the word of God.

So now, if we go back to the Quran and sunni narrations, we have to establish the following:

1) That there will be 12 caliphs - no problem here.

2) Who they are. Are there any authentic sunni narrations from the Prophet that give names? If not, supposing that we can prove Imam Ali is the first, which sources should we use after to provide evidence from him that Imam Hassan is to be his successor, who then confirms Imam Hussain, who then confirms Imam al Sajjad etc?

3) That there is a divine status called Imamah, that that the 12 caliphs from the AhlulBayt have it and the reason why Imamah is necessary. Is it logical to assume that if a Prophet appoints an individual or a group of individuals to have some role of guidance and leadership, that they're automatically a divinely guided infallible person or people? Not necessarily. Also, if the status of Imamah is proven and that these 12 have it, twelver shiism still runs into the problem of the occultation of the twelfth Imam. Yes, there are theological responses that try to justify such a belief, but ultimately, it undermines the philosophical position that Imamah after the Prophet is necessary to ensure infallible, direct guidance of the Muslims to carry on. Even the belief that there must be a hujja at all times is problematic if the understanding is that it's a person who guides us all the time like the Prophet because in reality, that's just not happening.

With all of this being said, my honest position right now, especially if you see the list of questions that I quoted from myself in the previous post, I have a problem with the sunni and shia narrative. The following questions are for my shia brothers and sisters:

1) While there is no doubt that the Fatima, Imam Ali and their children hold a very high position of love and respect within the Quran and narrations, how does hadith al thaqalayn prove without any doubt that only they are the AhlulBayt which the Prophet spoke about within those narrations, that they are the primary sources of guidance and leadership after the Prophet? Afterall, I don't think we can argue that just because the Quran tells the believers to treat the family of the Prophet well, that this means they are his successors.

2) Is your understanding that 5:55 refers to the authority of Imam Ali based on your knowledge that this is the only acceptable understanding from sunni sources, or just what you've believed is the only authentic narrative so far?

3) Regarding the verse of Ibrahim becoming an Imam. How does Allah telling him there will be Imams from his offspring prove the Imamah that is given to him is divine in rank and above Prophethood? Because the status of being an Imam that was given to him extends to righteous people in his progeny? The Quran says the covenant doesn't include the unjust. How do we understand that to mean someone who is infallible and not someone who is generally righteous but can also sin? Also, assuming that Imamah is a divine rank that is higher than Prophethood, how would you respond to this article? https://www.*************/2017/03/08/prophet-ibrahims-demotion/

My question for my sunni brothers and sisters:

1) According to what I've read from your sources, your narrative says that 33:33 refers to the wives of the Prophet. If I'm correct, ibn kathir says this can also extend to the family in general, i.e. how we see in hadith al kisa. Is my understanding here correct? If so, this seems to be a contradiction for me which I don't know how to reconcile. But, even if we say that it's only about the wives, what does the removal or keeping away of impurity mean? If it's infallibility like how the shia understand, then how does that explain aaisha and hafsa lying to the Prophet about the smell of his breath which caused them to be severely condemned in the Quran?

Thank you.

 

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51 minutes ago, sumsoul91 said:

how does hadith al thaqalayn prove without any doubt that only they are the AhlulBayt which the Prophet spoke about within those narrations

Which traditions are your referring to? And which Hadith al Thaqlain? The Sunni one or Shia one? 

53 minutes ago, sumsoul91 said:

Is your understanding that 5:55 refers to the authority of Imam Ali based on your knowledge that this is the only acceptable understanding from sunni sources, or just what you've believed is the only authentic narrative so far?

It is in the books of the Sunnis that this is referring to Imam Ali, as for the authenticity of those reports the I don't know, haven't really done much research into them, because I don't determine my faith by sunni sources, I have my own books and sources which I'm happy with

55 minutes ago, sumsoul91 said:

How does Allah telling him there will be Imams from his offspring prove the Imamah that is given to him is divine in rank and above Prophethood

Please refer to my earlier post in which I broke down the verse to come to such conclusions

56 minutes ago, sumsoul91 said:

Also, assuming that Imamah is a divine rank that is higher than Prophethood, how would you respond to this article? https://www.*************/2017/03/08/prophet-ibrahims-demotion/

I remember reading that article a while back, and looking over it now, I see the main two point they make is:

1. The Imams cannot see the angels, and Prophet Ibrahim(عليه السلام) could, so it was a demotion

2. Show an example of a non Prophet becoming an Imam

 

As for the first point, Prophet Ibrahim(عليه السلام) becoming an Imam doesn't negate the fact that he could see the angels, you are forgetting that he was a Imam but also a Messenger, thus he could see the angels, if he were just an Imam, he wouldn't be able to see the angels

 

As for the second point they made, it does not at all mean that a non Prophet couldn't become an Imam, you don't need a Qur'anic verse to prove as such, since there is no prohibition on it in the first place

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8 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

Which traditions are your referring to? And which Hadith al Thaqlain? The Sunni one or Shia one? 

Sunni narrations of thaqalayn.

8 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

It is in the books of the Sunnis that this is referring to Imam Ali, as for the authenticity of those reports the I don't know, haven't really done much research into them, because I don't determine my faith by sunni sources, I have my own books and sources which I'm happy with

From one twelver shia to another, on which basis are the twelver shia books an authority on this given that there's so much dependence on sunni literature to understand the Prophet's life?

10 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

Please refer to my earlier post in which I broke down the verse to come to such conclusions

I've looked through it again and with respect, I don't see how it answers my objections. Yes, Ibrahim passed divine trials by which Allah then referred to him as an Imam for mankind, he then asked about his offspring and Allah replied by saying the future Imams will not be from the unjust. What evidence do we have that shows us unjust means that it's only for people who are infallible?

 

15 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

I remember reading that article a while back, and looking over it now, I see the main two point they make is:

1. The Imams cannot see the angels, and Prophet Ibrahim(عليه السلام) could, so it was a demotion

2. Show an example of a non Prophet becoming an Imam

 

As for the first point, Prophet Ibrahim(عليه السلام) becoming an Imam doesn't negate the fact that he could see the angels, you are forgetting that he was a Imam but also a Messenger, thus he could see the angels, if he were just an Imam, he wouldn't be able to see the angels

 

As for the second point they made, it does not at all mean that a non Prophet couldn't become an Imam, you don't need a Qur'anic verse to prove as such, since there is no prohibition on it in the first place

I will agree with you that if Imamah is a divine rank, it doesn't necessarily mean that only Prophets have it, unless someone can explain how the Imams from the offspring is only referring to Prophets. However, the question remains, if according to our authentic narrations, Imamah itself means not being able to see angels, whereas Prophets could, then on what basis is the rank more superior?

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3 hours ago, Guest Wandering said:

Just a question for the shias, if Ibrahim as passed tests to achieve Imamate which you believe is higher than prophethood then when did prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) announce that He is going to be an imam AFTER prophethood? Or was He already an imam AND prophet? So both the stations are the same?

He was already and Imam and Prophet, he was the one with the divine authority and passed it on to Ali(عليه السلام)

3 hours ago, Guest Wandering said:

So both the stations are the same? Furthermore when did the Ahlubaith ra bypass prophecy to attain Imamate?

No, one is higher than the other, and no they didn't, Imamate doesn't always got through the route of Prophethood, if so, they prove it

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19 hours ago, Guest sumsoul said:

Assalaamu alaikum,

I'm posting as a guest because the forum won't let me register with my email for some reason... Anyway, I've spent the past 10 years of my life being a twelver shia and I've gotten to the point where I feel like I don't have the evidence I thought I had to prove I'm following the true path of Islam. I've made a similar thread on a sunni website and I'm hoping they'll respond to me with their point of view inshaAllah.

I was in the same boat as you. Look in zaidi madhab. I can share some links or books with you. If you want. May help to answer some of your questions.

 

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4 minutes ago, Warilla said:

I was in the same boat as you. Look in zaidi madhab. I can share some links or books with you. If you want. May help to answer some of your questions.

 

Yeah, sure why not. Maybe I've rejected the zaidi position due to incorrect information.

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1 hour ago, sumsoul91 said:

Sunni narrations of thaqalayn.

Then you would have to ask the Sunnis

1 hour ago, sumsoul91 said:

From one twelver shia to another, on which basis are the twelver shia books an authority on this given that there's so much dependence on sunni literature to understand the Prophet's life?

Dependence on sunni literature? What exactly do you mean? Yes the traditions of The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) are in dispute among the Shias and Sunnis, but the life of The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and what he did is generally universal among all sects

1 hour ago, sumsoul91 said:

I've looked through it again and with respect, I don't see how it answers my objections. Yes, Ibrahim passed divine trials by which Allah then referred to him as an Imam for mankind, he then asked about his offspring and Allah replied by saying the future Imams will not be from the unjust. What evidence do we have that shows us unjust means that it's only for people who are infallible?

Well, who did Allah make an Imam? The Ale of Ibrahim(عليه السلام)

21:73:

And We gave him Isaac and Jacob in addition, and all [of them] We made righteous.

21:74:

And We made them Imams guiding by Our command. And We inspired to them the doing of good deeds, establishment of prayer, and giving of zakāh; and they were worshippers of Us.

Allah says that Isaac and Jacob(children of Ibrahim(as)), were Righteous, and he(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made them Imams

These individuals were infallibles correct? Allah made them Imams, so can you show me where Allah made a non Infallible an Imam *from* the *Covenant* of Ibrahim?

1 hour ago, sumsoul91 said:

Imamah itself means not being able to see angels, whereas Prophets could, then on what basis is the rank more superior?

That doesn't mean Prophethood is more superior, for example in the story of Musa(عليه السلام) and Al-Khidr(عليه السلام), Musa had no idea what was going on(with all due respect), but Al Khidir (عليه السلام) (Who btw is not even established as a Prophet in either the Quran or Sunnah), was the one who was guiding him, Khidir knew what Musa(عليه السلام) didn't even think of, he couldn't see what was going to happen next, but Al Khidr could?(Also keep in mind that Musa(عليه السلام) is one of the 5 Ulil Azm Prophets(top 5 high ranking of all Prophets)), does that make al Khidir(عليه السلام) Superior to Musa(عليه السلام)? And if no, then on what basis is Musa(عليه السلام) superior to all Khidir (عليه السلام)?

 

Also, there are people that are even superior to The Prophets:

Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:

 

reported the Prophet (ﷺ) as saying: There are people from the servants of Allah who are neither prophets nor martyrs; the prophets and martyrs will ENVY them on the Day of Resurrection for their RANK from Allah, the Most High.

Albani: صحيح

Sunan Abi Dawud 3527

 

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5 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

Dependence on sunni literature? What exactly do you mean? Yes the traditions of The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) are in dispute among the Shias and Sunnis, but the life of The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and what he did is generally universal among all sects

Yes, but how much can we know about the life of the Prophet just by using shia books?

11 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

Well, who did Allah make an Imam? The Ale of Ibrahim(عليه السلام)

21:73:

And We gave him Isaac and Jacob in addition, and all [of them] We made righteous.

21:74:

And We made them Imams guiding by Our command. And We inspired to them the doing of good deeds, establishment of prayer, and giving of zakāh; and they were worshippers of Us.

Allah says that Isaac and Jacob(children of Ibrahim(as)), were Righteous, and he(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made them Imams

These individuals were infallibles correct? Allah made them Imams, so can you show me where Allah made a non Infallible an Imam *from* the *Covenant* of Ibrahim?

So let's say for the sake of argument that I accept this proves that 1)The rank of Imamah is divine and higher than Prophethood, and 2) That Allah made Ibrahim, Isaac and Jacob Imams... does this mean we only accept that someone is an Imam from the offspring of Ibrahim if Allah mentions their name explicitly within the Quran? As to my knowledge, there are Prophets from the line of Ibrahim who aren't referred to as Imams. Furthermore, if this proves that Imamah is only reserved for infallibles, does this mean that anyone from the offspring of Ibrahim, who isn't unjust is automatically considered an infallible Imam?

 

1 hour ago, MaisumAli said:

That doesn't mean Prophethood is more superior, for example in the story of Musa(عليه السلام) and Al-Khidr(عليه السلام), Musa had no idea what was going on(with all due respect), but Al Khidir (عليه السلام) (Who btw is not even established as a Prophet in either the Quran or Sunnah), was the one who was guiding him, Khidir knew what Musa(عليه السلام) didn't even think of, he couldn't see what was going to happen next, but Al Khidr could?(Also keep in mind that Musa(عليه السلام) is one of the 5 Ulil Azm Prophets(top 5 high ranking of all Prophets)), does that make al Khidir(عليه السلام) Superior to Musa(عليه السلام)? And if no, then on what basis is Musa(عليه السلام) superior to all Khidir (عليه السلام)?

 

Also, there are people that are even superior to The Prophets:

Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:

 

reported the Prophet (ﷺ) as saying: There are people from the servants of Allah who are neither prophets nor martyrs; the prophets and martyrs will ENVY them on the Day of Resurrection for their RANK from Allah, the Most High.

Albani: صحيح

Sunan Abi Dawud 3527

I'd have to think about the example of Musa more before giving a reply inshaAllah.

 

I'll look into the narration you've quoted as well.

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10 hours ago, sumsoul91 said:

Yes, but how much can we know about the life of the Prophet just by using shia books?

Well...What exactly would you like to know?

10 hours ago, sumsoul91 said:

does this mean we only accept that someone is an Imam from the offspring of Ibrahim if Allah mentions their name explicitly within the Quran

No I just brought an example to show you who exactly the Righteous Imams are

10 hours ago, sumsoul91 said:

Furthermore, if this proves that Imamah is only reserved for infallibles, does this mean that anyone from the offspring of Ibrahim, who isn't unjust is automatically considered an infallible Imam?

Not too sure about this one, but I'd probably put my money on the interpretation that unjust meaning in any way, so therefore a Prophet only, or an Infallible person

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2 hours ago, MaisumAli said:

Well...What exactly would you like to know?

If you could bring me a book by a Shia scholar who has a detailed biography on the life of the Prophet without relying on any Sunni sources. 

2 hours ago, MaisumAli said:

Not too sure about this one, but I'd probably put my money on the interpretation that unjust meaning in any way, so therefore a Prophet only, or an Infallible person

The Quran says that Ibrahim became an Imam and that his offspring will also become Imams if they're not unjust. So from this we understand that anyone from his offspring who is unjust should therefore be an infallible Imam, but we know according to Shia theology, that's not true, especially if it's a woman e.g. Fatima Zahra. 

 

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On 11/22/2020 at 8:39 AM, Guest SumSoul said:

Regarding hadith al thaqalayn, as I've said, it's not like I don't have problems with the sunni narrative, but taking all the other doubts into consideration, I could easily see them making an argument that this isn't proof for the ahlulbayt succeeding the prophet in guidance and leadership of islam.

Salaam brother, 

If you read the Hadith, it's context clearly indicates without any amguity that it is a sort of a wasiyat(will) 

When someone says, " I don't have much time left in my life and I'm leaving behind you something so that you don't go astray". It certainly means he is doing a testament or will. Which indicates that it is not a normal hadith of virtue. But rather an announcement of what should be followed in place of him: "I am leaving behind you..".

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5 hours ago, sumsoul91 said:

If you could bring me a book by a Shia scholar who has a detailed biography on the life of the Prophet without relying on any Sunni sources. 

The Quran says that Ibrahim became an Imam and that his offspring will also become Imams if they're not unjust. So from this we understand that anyone from his offspring who is unjust should therefore be an infallible Imam, but we know according to Shia theology, that's not true, especially if it's a woman e.g. Fatima Zahra. 

 

 

by the way, this is proof of the 12 Imams.  But you don’t have to be Shia... like I am Sunni and I also believe in 12 Imams.  ;)

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5 hours ago, sumsoul91 said:

If you could bring me a book by a Shia scholar who has a detailed biography on the life of the Prophet without relying on any Sunni sources. 

https://www.al-islam.org/prophet-muhammad-mercy-world-sayyid-muhammad-sadiq-al-shirazi/chapter-1-brief-biography-prophet

5 hours ago, sumsoul91 said:

The Quran says that Ibrahim became an Imam and that his offspring will also become Imams if they're not unjust. So from this we understand that anyone from his offspring who is unjust should therefore be an infallible Imam, but we know according to Shia theology, that's not true, especially if it's a woman e.g. Fatima Zahra

Yes, I believe the correct interpretation would be unjust in the slightest degree, meaning Ismah

 

No, the word "اِمَامًا" is masculine, so there for takes women out of the equation

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3 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Salaam brother, 

If you read the Hadith, it's context clearly indicates without any amguity that it is a sort of a wasiyat(will) 

When someone says, " I don't have much time left in my life and I'm leaving behind you something so that you don't go astray". It certainly means he is doing a testament or will. Which indicates that it is not a normal hadith of virtue. But rather an announcement of what should be followed in place of him: "I am leaving behind you..".

Wa alaikum assalaam,

Yes, I've been convinced by this narration for 10 years now... until now. I'm currently reading sunni responses to it as I never really made that effort, I always assumed the shia understand was correct. InshaAllah I'll provide another response with my thoughts soon.

 

2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

by the way, this is proof of the 12 Imams.  But you don’t have to be Shia... like I am Sunni and I also believe in 12 Imams.  ;)

The discussion is about the status of the Imams after the Prophet, not whether they existed or not.

 

1 hour ago, MaisumAli said:

https://www.al-islam.org/prophet-muhammad-mercy-world-sayyid-muhammad-sadiq-al-shirazi/chapter-1-brief-biography-prophet

If you scroll all the way down to the references just in this chapter alone, you'll see things such as al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn, Musnad ibn Hanbal, Sahih al-Tirmidhi etc, so this clearly doesn't fit the criteria for what I asked bro.

 

1 hour ago, MaisumAli said:

Yes, I believe the correct interpretation would be unjust in the slightest degree, meaning Ismah

 

No, the word "اِمَامًا" is masculine, so there for takes women out of the equation

Interesting point. My knowledge of arabic is weak, but I'm wondering if the masculine is being used because it's being addressed to a man?

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1 hour ago, sumsoul91 said:

you scroll all the way down to the references just in this chapter alone, you'll see things such as al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn, Musnad ibn Hanbal, Sahih al-Tirmidhi etc, so this clearly doesn't fit the criteria for what I asked bro.

Yes, but he is only pointing out the traditions that both Shias and Sunnis share in common, all the traditions that he referenced to Sunni books are all found in authentic Shia texts, if you scroll and click on the numbers next to the reference, you will see the following traditions:

“I am the City of Knowledge and Ali is its Gate, so whosoever wishes to access this City, then let him do so through its Gate

" For whoever I am his master and leader, then Ali is his master and leader too. O Lord support whoever supports Ali, and oppose whoever opposes him.

" I leave with ye the two momentous things - the book of Allah and my kin the people of my Ahl al-Bayt. As long as ye adhere to them both ye will never go astray after me.”"

I'm sure I don't need to go into much detail, as these traditions are quite popular and authentic in Shia books

And he also may have done it for polemical reasons too, in the sense that whoever reads his book whether he be Shia or Sunni, can benefit from it

1 hour ago, sumsoul91 said:

Interesting point. My knowledge of arabic is weak, but I'm wondering if the masculine is being used because it's being addressed to a man?

My knowledge of arabic is weak too, but the word اِمَامًا itself is a masculine word, a woman can't be an اِمَامًا, because اِمَامًا is a masculine word, and Ibrahim(عليه السلام) asks to make his decendents اِمَامًا, so therefore women are ruled out

This should put it into perspective:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=124

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48 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

Yes, but he is only pointing out the traditions that both Shias and Sunnis share in common, all the traditions that he referenced to Sunni books are all found in authentic Shia texts, if you scroll and click on the numbers next to the reference, you will see the following traditions:

“I am the City of Knowledge and Ali is its Gate, so whosoever wishes to access this City, then let him do so through its Gate

" For whoever I am his master and leader, then Ali is his master and leader too. O Lord support whoever supports Ali, and oppose whoever opposes him.

" I leave with ye the two momentous things - the book of Allah and my kin the people of my Ahl al-Bayt. As long as ye adhere to them both ye will never go astray after me.”"

I'm sure I don't need to go into much detail, as these traditions are quite popular and authentic in Shia books

And he also may have done it for polemical reasons too, in the sense that whoever reads his book whether he be Shia or Sunni, can benefit from it

I've had a look through this book again. Bro, maybe I miscommunicated what I meant by a detailed biography. I meant complete, from the birth of the Prophet until his death, like The Message by Ja'far Subhani or The Life of The Messenger by Rasul Ja'fariyan (although the latter uses many more sources... don't think they're shia though for the most part). This book you've shared by Sadiq Shirazi is nothing (with all due respect) in comparison to a full biography.

 

51 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

My knowledge of arabic is weak too, but the word اِمَامًا itself is a masculine word, a woman can't be an اِمَامًا, because اِمَامًا is a masculine word, and Ibrahim(عليه السلام) asks to make his decendents اِمَامًا, so therefore women are ruled out

This should put it into perspective:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=124

I'd have to get back to you regarding the grammar as I'm asking friends who have studied it for several years.

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1 hour ago, sumsoul91 said:

I'd have to get back to you regarding the grammar as I'm asking friends who have studied it for several years

Whatever the case is, it is no different even for Sunnis, meaning anyone who isn't unjust(female) is an Imam, which I don't think has ever happened

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1 hour ago, sumsoul91 said:

This book you've shared by Sadiq Shirazi is nothing (with all due respect) in comparison to a full biography.

Not exactly sure on what grounds you are calling this book nothing, I think it is brilliant, but no mater, there is more

https://www.al-islam.org/glance-life-holy-prophet-islam

https://www.al-islam.org/life-muhammad-prophet-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi

And one of my personal favorites, and one that I think you will enjoy as well:

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-2-muhammad-baqir-majlisi

This entire volume is dedicated soley to the life of The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) by Allamah Baqir al Majlisi(rh) himself!

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On 11/23/2020 at 3:00 PM, MaisumAli said:

Not exactly sure on what grounds you are calling this book nothing, I think it is brilliant, but no mater, there is more

https://www.al-islam.org/glance-life-holy-prophet-islam

https://www.al-islam.org/life-muhammad-prophet-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi

And one of my personal favorites, and one that I think you will enjoy as well:

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-2-muhammad-baqir-majlisi

This entire volume is dedicated soley to the life of The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) by Allamah Baqir al Majlisi(rh) himself!

Nothing in the sense that if you rely on it, there's very little that you'd know about the Prophet, in comparison to everything that was recorded in history, not that the book is lacking in quality of information.

So I've gone through the first two books and they rely on sunni books, not just for comparisons on agreed information, but to provide a more complete source. As for Hayat al Qulub, I had this book years ago. I personally didn't enjoy it lol. I'll have to spend more time looking through it. Ultimately, even if it's able to provide a complete, detailed biography using shia sources alone, the next question to ask would be - how many of these narrations are going directly back to the time of the Prophet himself? Let's put it this way, there's a difference of opinion among sunni and shia scholars about how the first revelation occurred. Shia narrations paint a very different story to the sunni narrative, however, they're coming from the Imams who weren't even around during that period, so on what basis would we accept the narration from the Imam rather than what earlier sources say, is it because of our theological beliefs? Or can we show the Imams established the information from the time of the Prophet?

In the meantime, let's say we agree that Imamah is only for men. What evidence do we require to clearly establish someone is an Imam and once we know they're an Imam, what can we know about what the station of Imamah entails? 

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On 11/23/2020 at 3:44 PM, sumsoul91 said:

Nothing in the sense that if you rely on it, there's very little that you'd know about the Prophet, in comparison to everything that was recorded in history, not that the book is lacking in quality of information.

K, suit yourself, I'll take it any day of the week

On 11/23/2020 at 3:44 PM, sumsoul91 said:

As for Hayat al Qulub, I had this book years ago. I personally didn't enjoy it lol. I'll have to spend more time looking through it. Ultimately, even if it's able to provide a complete, detailed biography using shia sources alone, the next question to ask would be - how many of these narrations are going directly back to the time of the Prophet himself? Let's put it this way, there's a difference of opinion among sunni and shia scholars about how the first revelation occurred. Shia narrations paint a very different story to the sunni narrative, however, they're coming from the Imams who weren't even around during that period, so on what basis would we accept the narration from the Imam rather than what earlier sources say, is it because of our theological beliefs? Or can we show the Imams established the information from the time of the Prophet?

Have you become sunni yet? This question would be valid from the Sunni perspective, but that would not be fair, because these are shia traditions, the same way I can't read sunni traditions from a Shia perspective, because that would be unfair to them, so to understand Shia books properly you would have to read with the Shia perspective, and the Shia perspective states that the Imams(عليه السلام) are the inheritors of the Prophets, The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) taught Imam Ali(عليه السلام), Imam Ali taught Hasan(عليه السلام) and Hussain(عليه السلام), they taught Imam Sajjad(عليه السلام), he taught Imam Baqir (عليه السلام),he taught Imam as Sadiq(عليه السلام), so forth, and if there is any knowledge that Allah wishes to spiritually give to the Imam, it must first go through The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) then it reaches the Imams(عليه السلام), and we have a plethora of traditions on this very topic, but the end all be all is that if The Imam(عليه السلام) tells you something, it's as if The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is telling you something, and if my memory serves me correctly, then I believe we have this tradition maybe that a Imam said, that if a tradition comes your way, and you don't know who said it, then say قال معصوم, because The all the Imams and The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) would give you the same answer

On 11/23/2020 at 3:44 PM, sumsoul91 said:

As for Hayat al Qulub, I had this book years ago. I personally didn't enjoy it lol

Hey, that's cool, you have your opinion and I have mine, but why exactly did you not enjoy it? Was it like boring to read?

On 11/23/2020 at 3:44 PM, sumsoul91 said:

the meantime, let's say we agree that Imamah is only for men. What evidence do we require to clearly establish someone is an Imam and once we know they're an Imam, what can we know about what the station of Imamah entails

Well, usually his successor is the one that announces it, but don't take my word for it, you should ask a scholar as they would give you a more thorough answer than me, but also keep in mind that the same can be said about Prophethood

(This may be my last reply, as I will probably leave SC :( , but I wish you the best, and may Allah guide me and you both to the truth

PS: Also I just realized why it took you soo long to reply

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1 hour ago, MaisumAli said:

Have you become sunni yet? This question would be valid from the Sunni perspective, but that would not be fair, because these are shia traditions, the same way I can't read sunni traditions from a Shia perspective, because that would be unfair to them, so to understand Shia books properly you would have to read with the Shia perspective, and the Shia perspective states that the Imams(عليه السلام) are the inheritors of the Prophets, The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) taught Imam Ali(عليه السلام), Imam Ali taught Hasan(عليه السلام) and Hussain(عليه السلام), they taught Imam Sajjad(عليه السلام), he taught Imam Baqir (عليه السلام),he taught Imam as Sadiq(عليه السلام), so forth, and if there is any knowledge that Allah wishes to spiritually give to the Imam, it must first go through The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) then it reaches the Imams(عليه السلام), and we have a plethora of traditions on this very topic, but the end all be all is that if The Imam(عليه السلام) tells you something, it's as if The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is telling you something, and if my memory serves me correctly, then I believe we have this tradition maybe that a Imam said, that if a tradition comes your way, and you don't know who said it, then say قال معصوم, because The all the Imams and The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) would give you the same answer

No, I'm still 12er Shia, but being critical of both sides, especially my own side since I don't wanna have bias towards it. I'm no scholar, but I have some understanding of how it works, the Imams either have the knowledge passed on, or they are taught in a divine way. I don't have a problem with that if it's proven. Having a perspective isn't enough, there must be a reason as to why that perspective should be accepted in the first place. 

 

1 hour ago, MaisumAli said:

Hey, that's cool, you have your opinion and I have mine, but why exactly did you not enjoy it? Was it like boring to read?

I'm not too sure tbh lol. It was a long time ago.

 

1 hour ago, MaisumAli said:

Well, usually his successor is the one that announces it, but don't take my word for it, you should ask a scholar as they would give you a more thorough answer than me, but also keep in mind that the same can be said about Prophethood

(This may be my last reply, as I will probably leave SC :( , but I wish you the best, and may Allah guide me and you both to the truth

PS: Also I just realized why it took you soo long to reply

Yeah, it's so annoying having to be wait for posts to be approved lol. If it's your last reply, I'll leave the convo there and wait for someone else. May God help us all.

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On 11/22/2020 at 4:39 PM, MaisumAli said:

He was already and Imam and Prophet, he was the one with the divine authority and passed it on to Ali(عليه السلام)

No, one is higher than the other, and no they didn't, Imamate doesn't always got through the route of Prophethood, if so, they prove it

When did prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) declare that He Himself is now a divine imam or when did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) declare it also?
You use the verse of Ibrahim as, as an example AFTER prophethood He got Imamate yet you have NOTHING stating the same for our prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) but will assume it’s the case so initially the onus is on you to prove your assumption.

 

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9 hours ago, sumsoul91 said:

No, I'm still 12er Shia, but being critical of both sides, especially my own side since I don't wanna have bias towards it. I'm no scholar, but I have some understanding of how it works, the Imams either have the knowledge passed on, or they are taught in a divine way. I don't have a problem with that if it's proven. Having a perspective isn't enough, there must be a reason as to why that perspective should be accepted in the first place. 

 

I'm not too sure tbh lol. It was a long time ago.

 

Yeah, it's so annoying having to be wait for posts to be approved lol. If it's your last reply, I'll leave the convo there and wait for someone else. May God help us all.

Sorry this will be my last post iA, but it was a pleasure discussing these "questions" with you, and May Allah help you with your quest to find the truth iA 

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