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In the Name of God بسم الله

Context of Hadith of Ghadeer e Khum was Complaints from Yemen?

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1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

Sirah Rasullullah by Ibn Ishaq: page 650

image.thumb.png.7c94c177dc70193660ebea2955491786.png

@Nightclaw 

There are Two narrations of complaints in Seerah ibn Ishaq but there are a few problems.

This is how you received Seerah Ibn Ishaq

Ibn Hisham -> Ziyad Bin Abdullah Al-Bukai -> Seerah of Ibn Ishaq 

Now check out Ziyad Bin Abdullah Al-Bukai:

Al-Nasāʾī (d. 915 CE) - al-Ḍuʿafāʾ wa-l-matrūkūn النسائي - الضعفاء والمتروكون
زِيَاد بن عبد الله البكائي لَيْسَ بِالْقَوِيّ

Najm ʿAbd al-Raḥmān Khalaf (1989) - Muʿjam al-jarḥ wa-l-taʿdīl li-rijāl al-Sunan al-kubrāنجم عبد الرحمن خلف - معجم الجرح والتعديل لرجال السنن الكبرى

زياد بن عبد الله البكائي غير قوي (السنن الكبرى: 8/ 261

Ibn Zurayq al-Maqdisī (d. 1400-1401 CE) - Man takallama fī-hi al-Dāraquṭnī fī Kitāb al-sunanابن زريق - من تكلم فيه الدارقطني في كتاب السنن
زياد بن عبد الله البكائي
عن إدريس الأودي، وعنه إبراهيم بن دينار.
ليس بقوي. قاله الدارقطني.

Ibn Abī Ḥātim al-Rāzī (d. 938 CE) - al-Jarḥ wa-l-taʿdīl ابن أبي حاتم الرازي - الجرح والتعديل
زياد بن عبد الله بن الطفيل البكائي

حدثنا عبد الرحمن قال قرئ على العباس بن محمد الدوري عن يحيى بن معين أنه قال: زياد البكائى ليس بشئ

حدثنا عبد الرحمن أنا ابن أبي خيثمة فيما كتب إلي قال سمعت يحيى بن معين يقول: زياد البكائي ليس حديثه بشئ

حدثنا عبد الرحمن سمعت أبي يقول: زياد بن عبد الله البكائي يكتب حديثه ولا يحتج به (Ibn ABi Hatim Al-Razi says: Permissible to write his hadith but aren't a Hujjah/proof)

Ibn Ḥibbān (d. 965 CE) - al-Majrūḥīn ابن حبان - المجروحون
زِيَاد بْن عَبْد اللَّهِ بْن الطُّفَيْل البكائي

كَانَ فَاحش الْخَطَأ كثير الْوَهم لَا يَجُوز الِاحْتِجَاج بِخَبَرِهِ إِذَا انْفَرد

(Cannot be relied upon when he is alone)[And he is in case of these narrations]

Now Check out Ibn Ishaq:

Walī al-Dīn al-ʿIrāqī (d. 1422 CE) - al-Mudallisīnولي الدين العراقي - المدلسين
محمد بن إسحاق بن يسار ممن أكثر من التدليس خصوصاً عن الضعفاء.

(Tadlees especially Weak narrators)

Ibn ʿAdī al-Jurjānī (d. 976 CE) - al-Kāmil fī ḍuʿafāʾ al-rijālابن عدي الجرجاني - الكامل في ضعفاء الرجال
مُحَمد بن إسحاق بن يسار

حَدَّثَنا مُحَمد بْنُ مُوسَى الْحُلْوَانِيُّ، حَدَّثَنا أبو حاتم السجستاني، حَدَّثَنا الأصمعي عن معتمر قَال لي أَبِي لا ترو، عنِ ابن إسحاق فإنه كذاب

(Don't narrate from Ibn Ishaq he is a Liar)

حَدَّثَنَا موسى بْنِ الْعَبَّاسِ، حَدَّثَنا مُحَمد بْنُ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ الْجُنَيْدِ، قَالَ: سَمِعْتُ يَحْيى بْنَ غَيْلانَ يَقُولُ: سَمعتُ يَحْيى بْنَ سَعِيد الْقَطَّانُ يَقُولُ مَا تَرَكْتُ حَدِيثَ مُحَمد بْنِ إسحاق إلا لله

(i didn't abandon narrations of Ibn Ishaq except for sake of Allah)

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو شَيْبَةَ دَاوُدُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بِمِصْرَ، حَدَّثَنا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الدُّورَقِيُّ، حَدَّثَنا أَبُو دَاوُدَ الطَّيَالِسِيُّ، قَالَ: سَمِعْتُ حماد بن سلمة يقول لولا الاضطرار ما رويت، عنِ ابن إسحاق شَيئًا

(If there was no need, i wouldn't narrate from Ibn Ishaq)

حَدَّثَنَا علي بن سَعِيد الرازي، حَدَّثَنا عَبد المؤمن بن علي الزعفراني سمعت مالك بن أنس وذكر عنده مُحَمد بن إسحاق فقال دجال من الدجاجلة

Imam Malik says: Dajjal from among the Dajjals

حَدَّثَنَا ابن حماد، حَدَّثني أَبُو عون مُحَمد بن عَمْرو بن عون الواسطي، حَدَّثَنا مُحَمد بْنُ يَحْيى بْنِ سَعِيد، حَدَّثَنا عفان عن وهيب، قَالَ: سَمِعْتُ مَالِكَ بْنَ أَنَسٍ يقول هُوَ كذاب

Imam Malik says: he is a liar

قَالَ الشيخ: وحضرت مجلس الفريابي وقد سئل عن حديث لمحمد بن إسحاق وكان يأبي عليهم فلما كرروا عليه قَالَ مُحَمد بن إسحاق فذكر كلمة شنيعة فقال زنديق.

Even known as Zindeeq

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمد بْنُ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ يزيد، وَمُحمد بن أحمد بن حماد، قالا: حَدَّثَنا أَبُو كلابة عَبد الملك بن مُحَمد، حَدَّثني سليمان بن داود، قَال: قَال لِي يَحْيى بْنُ سَعِيد القطان أشهد أن مُحَمد بن إسحاق كذاب، قالَ: قُلتُ ما يدريك، قَال: قَال لي وهيب بن خالد إنه كذاب، قالَ: قُلتُ لوهيب ما يدريك، قَال: قَال لي مالك بن أنس.
أشهد أنه كذاب
قلت لمالك ما يدريك، قَال: قَال لي هشام بن عروة أشهد
أنه كذاب قلت لهشام ما يدريك قَالَ حدث عن امرأتي فاطمة بنت المنذر وأدخلت علي وهي بنت تسع سنين وما رآها رجل حتى لقيت الله.

Yahya Bin Saeed says: I testify that Muhammad Bin Ishaq is Kazzab liar. He was asked how did he know? he said

Waheb Bin Kahlid said: He  (Muhammad Bin Ishaq) is a liar. I said to Waheb how do you know? Waheb said:

Imam Malik said: I testify that he is a kazzab liar. I asked Malik how do you know. He said:

Hisham Bin Urwa said: I testify that he (Muhammad Bin Ishaq) is a liar.

(They testified to his lies whats left then. One of the earliest scholars testifying that he was Kazzab. Now Just mention of Tawtheeq for him wouldn't work.)

Now further into the book:

Two hadiths having following chains:

1. Yahya Bin Abdullah Bin Abdur Rehman Bin Abu Amara Said Yazid Bin Talha Bin Yazid Bin Rukana told me that Ali.

2. Abdullah Bin Abdur Rehman Bin Mamar Bin Hazm from Sulaiman Bin Muhammad Bin Ka'ab Bin Ujra from his aunt Zaynab Bint Ka'ab on authority of Abu Saed Al-Khudri.

Chain 1:

Yahya Bin Abdullah Bin Abdur Rehman:

Ibn Ḥibbān (d. 965 CE) - al-Thiqātابن حبان - الثقات
يحيى بْن عَبْد الله بْن عَبْد الرَّحْمَن بْن أبي عمْرَة الْأنْصَارِيّ من أهل الْمَدِينَة يروي عَن الْمَدَنِيين روى عَنهُ مُحَمَّد بْن إِسْحَاق

Has Tawtheeq from Ibn Hibban alone hence majhool according to Salafis, Sunni Defense and all Ahle-hadith

Yazid Bin Talha Bin Yazid Bin Rukana:

Ibn Ḥibbān (d. 965 CE) - al-Thiqātابن حبان - الثقات
يزِيد بن طَلْحَة بن يزِيد بن ركَانَة الْقرشِي أَخُو مُحَمَّد بن طَلْحَة
يروي عَن أَبِي هُرَيْرَة روى عَنهُ سَلمَة بن صَفْوَان مَاتَ فِي أول ولَايَة هِشَام بِالْمَدِينَةِ

Has Tawtheeq from Ibn Hibban alone hence majhool according to Salafis, Sunni Defense and all Ahle-hadith

Now in Book Tabqaat Al Kabeer:

He passed away in begenning of Khilafah of Hisham ibn Abdul Malik

The beginning of Khliafah of Hisham Bin Abdul Malik was 105 A.H and incident that has been quoted happened in 10 A.H

There has to be a narrator between him and Ali (عليه السلام) thus narration is disconnected.

Now Look at Matn of 1st Hadith:

image.thumb.png.7c94c177dc70193660ebea2955491786.png

Ali (عليه السلام) was coming back from yemen to see Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) at Makkah. Ali (عليه السلام) rushed to see rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and left his companion as in-charge and army used some clothes that they had obtained. 

Now hadith mentions when army approached.. indicating that Army approached Mecca, and Ali (عليه السلام) went out to meet them, he became angry at clothes they were wearing and commanded them to take them off and on this Army showed resentment.

Thats all, there is no mention of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) coming back from Mecca to Madinah stopping at Ghadeer e khum to address the complaints and isn't even mentioned that these complaints reached Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) at Mecca.

And thats it. here this hadith ends. The Next hadith isn't a continuation of this hadith rather its a totally different hadith.

Chain 2:

Hadith 2:

Abu Saed Al Khudri says:

When men complained about Ali, Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) arose to address them and he heard him say: Don't blame Ali .. for he is too scrupulous in the things of God or in the way of God to be blamed.

And thats it.

There is no mention of place where Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) rose to address people.

There is no mention of ghadeer e khum in this hadith.

There is no mention of Complaints of Army or yemen in hadith

Thus i believe its enough to prove this narrative is false.

Even if we accept that this hadith of Abu Saed Al-Khudri is continuation of hadith before it, then we know that according to 1st hadith Ali (عليه السلام) came to see prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and when army approached them, Ali went out to see them and was angry at Army and Army felt degraded.

This indicates that they were still at Mecca. then Lets continue it by hadith of ABu Saed Al -Khudri:

When people complained about Ali (عليه السلام), Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) arose to address them and he heard him say: Don't blame Ali .. for he is too scrupulous in the things of God or in the way of God to be blamed.

Now all of this happened at Mecca. What does this have to do with Ghadeer e khum and on their journey from Mecca to Madinah?

We see what Ibn Ishaq writes after these two narrations:

"Then apostle continued his pilgrimage and showed then men rites and customs of hajj" .....

This clearly proves that they were still at Mecca thus nothing to do with journey towads Madinah or ghadeer e khum

Jazak'Allah

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  • Advanced Member
8 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

image.thumb.png.7c94c177dc70193660ebea2955491786.png

@Nightclaw 

There are Two narrations of complaints in Seerah ibn Ishaq but there are a few problems.

This is how you received Seerah Ibn Ishaq

Ibn Hisham -> Ziyad Bin Abdullah Al-Bukai -> Seerah of Ibn Ishaq 

Now check out Ziyad Bin Abdullah Al-Bukai:

Al-Nasāʾī (d. 915 CE) - al-Ḍuʿafāʾ wa-l-matrūkūn النسائي - الضعفاء والمتروكون
زِيَاد بن عبد الله البكائي لَيْسَ بِالْقَوِيّ

Najm ʿAbd al-Raḥmān Khalaf (1989) - Muʿjam al-jarḥ wa-l-taʿdīl li-rijāl al-Sunan al-kubrāنجم عبد الرحمن خلف - معجم الجرح والتعديل لرجال السنن الكبرى

زياد بن عبد الله البكائي غير قوي (السنن الكبرى: 8/ 261

Ibn Zurayq al-Maqdisī (d. 1400-1401 CE) - Man takallama fī-hi al-Dāraquṭnī fī Kitāb al-sunanابن زريق - من تكلم فيه الدارقطني في كتاب السنن
زياد بن عبد الله البكائي
عن إدريس الأودي، وعنه إبراهيم بن دينار.
ليس بقوي. قاله الدارقطني.

Ibn Abī Ḥātim al-Rāzī (d. 938 CE) - al-Jarḥ wa-l-taʿdīl ابن أبي حاتم الرازي - الجرح والتعديل
زياد بن عبد الله بن الطفيل البكائي

حدثنا عبد الرحمن قال قرئ على العباس بن محمد الدوري عن يحيى بن معين أنه قال: زياد البكائى ليس بشئ

حدثنا عبد الرحمن أنا ابن أبي خيثمة فيما كتب إلي قال سمعت يحيى بن معين يقول: زياد البكائي ليس حديثه بشئ

حدثنا عبد الرحمن سمعت أبي يقول: زياد بن عبد الله البكائي يكتب حديثه ولا يحتج به (Ibn ABi Hatim Al-Razi says: Permissible to write his hadith but aren't a Hujjah/proof)

Ibn Ḥibbān (d. 965 CE) - al-Majrūḥīn ابن حبان - المجروحون
زِيَاد بْن عَبْد اللَّهِ بْن الطُّفَيْل البكائي

كَانَ فَاحش الْخَطَأ كثير الْوَهم لَا يَجُوز الِاحْتِجَاج بِخَبَرِهِ إِذَا انْفَرد

(Cannot be relied upon when he is alone)[And he is in case of these narrations]

Now Check out Ibn Ishaq:

Walī al-Dīn al-ʿIrāqī (d. 1422 CE) - al-Mudallisīnولي الدين العراقي - المدلسين
محمد بن إسحاق بن يسار ممن أكثر من التدليس خصوصاً عن الضعفاء.

(Tadlees especially Weak narrators)

Ibn ʿAdī al-Jurjānī (d. 976 CE) - al-Kāmil fī ḍuʿafāʾ al-rijālابن عدي الجرجاني - الكامل في ضعفاء الرجال
مُحَمد بن إسحاق بن يسار

حَدَّثَنا مُحَمد بْنُ مُوسَى الْحُلْوَانِيُّ، حَدَّثَنا أبو حاتم السجستاني، حَدَّثَنا الأصمعي عن معتمر قَال لي أَبِي لا ترو، عنِ ابن إسحاق فإنه كذاب

(Don't narrate from Ibn Ishaq he is a Liar)

حَدَّثَنَا موسى بْنِ الْعَبَّاسِ، حَدَّثَنا مُحَمد بْنُ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ الْجُنَيْدِ، قَالَ: سَمِعْتُ يَحْيى بْنَ غَيْلانَ يَقُولُ: سَمعتُ يَحْيى بْنَ سَعِيد الْقَطَّانُ يَقُولُ مَا تَرَكْتُ حَدِيثَ مُحَمد بْنِ إسحاق إلا لله

(i didn't abandon narrations of Ibn Ishaq except for sake of Allah)

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو شَيْبَةَ دَاوُدُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بِمِصْرَ، حَدَّثَنا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الدُّورَقِيُّ، حَدَّثَنا أَبُو دَاوُدَ الطَّيَالِسِيُّ، قَالَ: سَمِعْتُ حماد بن سلمة يقول لولا الاضطرار ما رويت، عنِ ابن إسحاق شَيئًا

(If there was no need, i wouldn't narrate from Ibn Ishaq)

حَدَّثَنَا علي بن سَعِيد الرازي، حَدَّثَنا عَبد المؤمن بن علي الزعفراني سمعت مالك بن أنس وذكر عنده مُحَمد بن إسحاق فقال دجال من الدجاجلة

Imam Malik says: Dajjal from among the Dajjals

حَدَّثَنَا ابن حماد، حَدَّثني أَبُو عون مُحَمد بن عَمْرو بن عون الواسطي، حَدَّثَنا مُحَمد بْنُ يَحْيى بْنِ سَعِيد، حَدَّثَنا عفان عن وهيب، قَالَ: سَمِعْتُ مَالِكَ بْنَ أَنَسٍ يقول هُوَ كذاب

Imam Malik says: he is a liar

قَالَ الشيخ: وحضرت مجلس الفريابي وقد سئل عن حديث لمحمد بن إسحاق وكان يأبي عليهم فلما كرروا عليه قَالَ مُحَمد بن إسحاق فذكر كلمة شنيعة فقال زنديق.

Even known as Zindeeq

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمد بْنُ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ يزيد، وَمُحمد بن أحمد بن حماد، قالا: حَدَّثَنا أَبُو كلابة عَبد الملك بن مُحَمد، حَدَّثني سليمان بن داود، قَال: قَال لِي يَحْيى بْنُ سَعِيد القطان أشهد أن مُحَمد بن إسحاق كذاب، قالَ: قُلتُ ما يدريك، قَال: قَال لي وهيب بن خالد إنه كذاب، قالَ: قُلتُ لوهيب ما يدريك، قَال: قَال لي مالك بن أنس.
أشهد أنه كذاب
قلت لمالك ما يدريك، قَال: قَال لي هشام بن عروة أشهد
أنه كذاب قلت لهشام ما يدريك قَالَ حدث عن امرأتي فاطمة بنت المنذر وأدخلت علي وهي بنت تسع سنين وما رآها رجل حتى لقيت الله.

Yahya Bin Saeed says: I testify that Muhammad Bin Ishaq is Kazzab liar. He was asked how did he know? he said

Waheb Bin Kahlid said: He  (Muhammad Bin Ishaq) is a liar. I said to Waheb how do you know? Waheb said:

Imam Malik said: I testify that he is a kazzab liar. I asked Malik how do you know. He said:

Hisham Bin Urwa said: I testify that he (Muhammad Bin Ishaq) is a liar.

(They testified to his lies whats left then. One of the earliest scholars testifying that he was Kazzab. Now Just mention of Tawtheeq for him wouldn't work.)

Now further into the book:

Two hadiths having following chains:

1. Yahya Bin Abdullah Bin Abdur Rehman Bin Abu Amara Said Yazid Bin Talha Bin Yazid Bin Rukana told me that Ali.

2. Abdullah Bin Abdur Rehman Bin Mamar Bin Hazm from Sulaiman Bin Muhammad Bin Ka'ab Bin Ujra from his aunt Zaynab Bint Ka'ab on authority of Abu Saed Al-Khudri.

Chain 1:

Yahya Bin Abdullah Bin Abdur Rehman:

Ibn Ḥibbān (d. 965 CE) - al-Thiqātابن حبان - الثقات
يحيى بْن عَبْد الله بْن عَبْد الرَّحْمَن بْن أبي عمْرَة الْأنْصَارِيّ من أهل الْمَدِينَة يروي عَن الْمَدَنِيين روى عَنهُ مُحَمَّد بْن إِسْحَاق

Has Tawtheeq from Ibn Hibban alone hence majhool according to Salafis, Sunni Defense and all Ahle-hadith

Yazid Bin Talha Bin Yazid Bin Rukana:

Ibn Ḥibbān (d. 965 CE) - al-Thiqātابن حبان - الثقات
يزِيد بن طَلْحَة بن يزِيد بن ركَانَة الْقرشِي أَخُو مُحَمَّد بن طَلْحَة
يروي عَن أَبِي هُرَيْرَة روى عَنهُ سَلمَة بن صَفْوَان مَاتَ فِي أول ولَايَة هِشَام بِالْمَدِينَةِ

Has Tawtheeq from Ibn Hibban alone hence majhool according to Salafis, Sunni Defense and all Ahle-hadith

Now in Book Tabqaat Al Kabeer:

He passed away in begenning of Khilafah of Hisham ibn Abdul Malik

The beginning of Khliafah of Hisham Bin Abdul Malik was 105 A.H and incident that has been quoted happened in 10 A.H

There has to be a narrator between him and Ali (عليه السلام) thus narration is disconnected.

Now Look at Matn of 1st Hadith:

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Ali (عليه السلام) was coming back from yemen to see Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) at Makkah. Ali (عليه السلام) rushed to see rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and left his companion as in-charge and army used some clothes that they had obtained. 

Now hadith mentions when army approached.. indicating that Army approached Mecca, and Ali (عليه السلام) went out to meet them, he became angry at clothes they were wearing and commanded them to take them off and on this Army showed resentment.

Thats all, there is no mention of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) coming back from Mecca to Madinah stopping at Ghadeer e khum to address the complaints and isn't even mentioned that these complaints reached Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) at Mecca.

And thats it. here this hadith ends. The Next hadith isn't a continuation of this hadith rather its a totally different hadith.

Chain 2:

Hadith 2:

Abu Saed Al Khudri says:

When men complained about Ali, Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) arose to address them and he heard him say: Don't blame Ali .. for he is too scrupulous in the things of God or in the way of God to be blamed.

And thats it.

There is no mention of place where Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) rose to address people.

There is no mention of ghadeer e khum in this hadith.

There is no mention of Complaints of Army or yemen in hadith

Thus i believe its enough to prove this narrative is false.

Even if we accept that this hadith of Abu Saed Al-Khudri is continuation of hadith before it, then we know that according to 1st hadith Ali (عليه السلام) came to see prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and when army approached them, Ali went out to see them and was angry at Army and Army felt degraded.

This indicates that they were still at Mecca. then Lets continue it by hadith of ABu Saed Al -Khudri:

When people complained about Ali (عليه السلام), Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) arose to address them and he heard him say: Don't blame Ali .. for he is too scrupulous in the things of God or in the way of God to be blamed.

Now all of this happened at Mecca. What does this have to do with Ghadeer e khum and on their journey from Mecca to Madinah?

We see what Ibn Ishaq writes after these two narrations:

"Then apostle continued his pilgrimage and showed then men rites and customs of hajj" .....

This clearly proves that they were still at Mecca thus nothing to do with journey towads Madinah or ghadeer e khum

Jazak'Allah

Then, by your conclusion, every single hadith (aside from where the Messenger reminded people about the book of Allah and his Sunnah/People of the Household) is weak or fabricated. The elongated narration is false and holds no real basis as I have proven. If you were to say this, you would need to prove that the narrators/narration is strong/authentic and traces back to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) - which you cannot. 

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Its not my fault if there are problems with the book that alone in whole world has such odd narrations.

According Salafi Sunni Defense Ahlehadith

If you accept Tawheeq of Ibn Hibban alone, then hadith where Abu Bakr made last three wills before dying that i wish i had not entered Fatimahs house would also get authenticated. Even if they are thiqa 1st hadith is disconnected. Even if hadith is somehow accepted, there is no mention of ghadeer or mention of complaints reaching Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) addressing people.

Next hadith of Abu Saed which mentions Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) arose to address epople when they complained about Ali (عليه السلام) is a seperate hadith. It isn't continuation of previous hadith. It doesn't mention time and place, whether Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that at Mecca, On his way to ghadeer, Madinah, or at some other place. Even if its believed to be a continuation of previous hadith, then it means Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said that at Mecca. 

What does this has to do with Journey of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) back to Madinah and stoping at Ghadeer e khum?

6 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Then, by your conclusion, every single hadith (aside from where the Messenger reminded people about the book of Allah and his Sunnah/People of the Household) is weak or fabricated. The elongated narration is false and holds no real basis as I have proven. If you were to say this, you would need to prove that the narrators/narration is strong/authentic and traces back to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) - which you cannot. 

as for this challenge, i accept it. I will prove that the hadith:

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: i leave behind Book of Allah and Ahle Bait, If you hold fast to them, you will never go Astray and they will never seperate from each other till they meet me at hawd.

is authentic. up to Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). But its really late in Pakistan now. Maybe someday else.

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1 minute ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: i leave behind Book of Allah and Ahle Bait, If you hold fast to them, you will never go Astray and they will never seperate from each other till they meet me at hawd.

 

I already mentioned this hadith and explained it, so there is no need. This hadith is from us originally, anyway.

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8 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

I already mentioned this hadith and explained it, so there is no need. This hadith is from us originally, anyway.

Then lets collect all versions of hadith of Ghadeer e khum and Construct sermon again and see context.

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) told us (including all sahaba) to Adhere to Quran And Ahlebait if they want to be guided. And reminded about the responsibilities of Ummah regarding Ahlebait (عليه السلام).

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said Quran and Ahlebait will never seperate from each other till they meet me at Hawd Al Kauthar.

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) grabed hand of Ali (عليه السلام) and said:

Do I not have more right over believers then they have over themselves? 

Everyone agreed,

Then Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

For whomever I am Mawla, Ali is his Mawla. Oh Allah befriend those who befriend Ali, and hate those who hate Ali.

Be an unbiased person and tell,

What is conext of Man kunto Maula now? Place Quran over your head and ask yourself. Let it be between you and Allah. You will be asked regarding it in Akhirat.

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2 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Then lets collect all versions of hadith of Ghadeer e khum and Construct sermon again and see context.

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) told us (including all sahaba) to Adhere to Quran And Ahlebait if they want to be guided. And reminded about the responsibilities of Ummah regarding Ahlebait (عليه السلام).

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said Quran and Ahlebait will never seperate from each other till they meet me at Hawd Al Kauthar.

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) grabed hand of Ali (عليه السلام) and said:

Do I not have more right over believers then they have over themselves? 

Everyone agreed,

Then Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

For whomever I am Mawla, Ali is his Mawla. Oh Allah befriend those who befriend Ali, and hate those who hate Ali.

Be an unbiased person and tell,

What is conext of Man kunto Maula now? Place Quran over your head and ask yourself. Let it be between you and Allah. You will be asked regarding it in Akhirat.

That is a narration that is only narrated once and comes hundreds of years after the Messenger of Allah with no other narrations that are exactly similar to it. Nobody bore witness and stated these exact things happened - or at least said they were authentic.

I have explained both narrations linguistically and what they mean. It is like me trying to give you a lesson on Urdu or Pashto while you know the language yourself and fluent in it. I know how to deconstruct sentences and know what they mean. I have shown you time and time again. You have given me a narration that comes out of nowhere and the meaning is still misconstrued and distorted, because this is not in any of the original narrations.

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The army led by Ali (رضّى الله عنه) was very successful in Yemen and they captured a lot of war booty. It was over this war booty that a dispute began between Ali (رضّى الله عنه) on the one hand and his soldiers on the other. It is narrated in Ibn Kathir’s “al-Bidayah wan-Nihayah”:

Amongst the state’s fifth of the spoils there was enough linen to clothe the whole army, but Ali had decided that it must be handed over to the Prophet untouched.

After the victory in Yemen, Ali (رضّى الله عنه) placed his deputy commander in charge of the troops stationed in Yemen, while he himself head out towards Mecca to meet the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) for the Hajj. We read:

In his (Ali’s) absence, however, the man he left in charge was persuaded to lend each man a new change of clothes out of the linen. The change was much needed for they had been away from home for nearly three months.

The troops stationed in Yemen then set out to Mecca to complete the Hajj with the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم):

When they (the soldiers sent to Yemen) were not far from entering the city (of Mecca), Ali rode out to meet them and was amazed to see the transformation that had taken place (in regards to their clothing).

“I gave them the garments,” said the deputy commander, “that their appearance might be more seemly when they entered in among the people.” The men all knew that everyone in Mecca would now be wearing their finest clothes in honor of the Feast, and they were anxious to look their best. But Ali felt he could not countenance such a liberty and he ordered them to put on their old clothes again and return the new ones to the spoils. Great resentment was felt throughout the army on this account, and when the Prophet heard of it, he (the Prophet) said: “O people, blame not Ali, for he is too scrupulous in the path of Allah to be blamed.” But these words were not sufficient, or it may be that they were only heard by a few, and the resentment continued.

On the way back to Medina one of the troops bitterly complained of Ali to the Prophet, whose face changed color. “Am I not nearer to the believers than their own selves?” he said; and when the man assented, he added: “Whomsoever’s beloved friend I am, Ali is (also) his beloved friend.” Later on in the journey, when they had halted at Ghadir al-Khumm, he gathered all the people together, and taking Ali by the hand he repeated these words [i.e. whomsoever’s beloved I am, this Ali is (also) his beloved friend”], to which he added the prayer: “O Allah, be the friend of him who is his friend, and the foe of him who is his foe”; and the murmurings against Ali were silenced.

If this is the back ground for saying "man kunto mowla fa Aliyyun mowla" then it becomes clear that Mowla here means "Awla bi-l-tasarruf". 

The same as the Prophet (s) was prior to Muslims' affairs in making decisions for them than themselves, Imam 'Ali (a) had the same priority.

The Prophet has a greater right (or a greater authority) over the faithful than they have over their own selves… (33:6)

Now I this this post has settled the key issue i.e., what Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) actually meant by "Mowla" in that hadith. 

:D And it is proved with the help of history available in Sunni sources. I am thankful to you @Nightclaw for inviting our attention towards this important record.

Shia brothers must take note of it.

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8 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

That is a narration that is only narrated once and comes hundreds of years after the Messenger of Allah with no other narrations that are exactly similar to it. Nobody bore witness and stated these exact things happened - or at least said they were authentic.

They are found in numerous reliable books of Sunnis. Everyone except for enemies of Ahle Bait (عليه السلام) considered Hadith of Ghadeer e Khum authentic.

Lets construct Hadith of Ghadeer e Khum in light of authentic traditions of Ali Ibn Abi Talib alone.

According to ts.net tree of Chains of Thaqalayn:

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Above Hadith from Mola Ali (عليه السلام) is Hasan.

Musnad ibn Ibn Rahwayh (teacher of Imam Bukhari) as well as from Ibn Asim 

.حدثنا سليمان بن عبيد الله الغيلاني، حدثنا أبو عامر، حدثنا كثير بن زيد، عن محمد بن عمر بن علي، عن أبيه، عن علي رضي الله عنه أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال :إني تركت فيكم ما إن أخذتم به لن تضلوا :كتاب الله، سببه بيد الله، وسببه بأيديكم، وأهل بيتي.

“The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: “I have left behind over you (al-Thaqalayn) that which if you hold fast to it you will never go astray: the Book of Allah – one end of which is in the Hand of Allah and the other in your hands– and my Ahl al-Bayt.”

al-Albani: إسناده حسن al-Arnaut: إسناده حسن

It was narrated that Sa`eed bin Wahb. and Zaid bin Yuthai’ said:

‘Ali adjured the people at ar-Rahbah, saying: Whoever heard the messenger of Allah (ﷺ) speak on the day of Ghadeer Khumm, let him stand up. And (of the people) around Sa’eed, six men stood up, and (of the people) around Zaid, six men stood up, and they testified that they had heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say to ‘Ali (رضي الله عنه) on the day of Ghadeer Khumm. “Isn`t it Allah Who is closer to the believers?” They said: Yes. He said: `O Allah, if I am a person`s mawla (friend and supporter) then ‘Ali is also his mawla; O Allah, take as friends those who take him as a friend, and take as enemies those who take him as an enemy.” A hadeeth like that of Abu Ishaq was narrated from `Amr Dhi Murr, i.e., from Sa`eed and Zaid, and he added to it: `and support those who support him, and forsake those who forsake him.` A similar report was narrated from Abut-Tufail from Zaid bin Arqam from the Prophet (ﷺ).

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ، حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ حَكِيمٍ الْأَوْدِيُّ، أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ، عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ وَهْبٍ، وَعَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ يُثَيْعٍ، قَالَا نَشَدَ عَلِيٌّ النَّاسَ فِي الرَّحَبَةِ مَنْ سَمِعَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ إِلَّا قَامَ قَالَ فَقَامَ مِنْ قِبَلِ سَعِيدٍ سِتَّةٌ وَمِنْ قِبَلِ زَيْدٍ سِتَّةٌ فَشَهِدُوا أَنَّهُمْ سَمِعُوا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ لِعَلِيٍّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ أَلَيْسَ اللَّهُ أَوْلَى بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ قَالُوا بَلَى قَالَ اللَّهُمَّ مَنْ كُنْتُ مَوْلَاهُ فَعَلِيٌّ مَوْلَاهُ اللَّهُمَّ وَالِ مَنْ وَالَاهُ وَعَادِ مَنْ عَادَاهُ.
حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ حَكِيمٍ أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ عَنْ عَمْرٍو ذِي مُرٍّ بِمِثْلِ حَدِيثِ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ يَعْنِي عَنْ سَعِيدٍ وَزَيْدٍ وَزَادَ فِيهِ وَانْصُرْ مَنْ نَصَرَهُ وَاخْذُلْ مَنْ خَذَلَهُ.
حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيٌّ أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ عَنِ الْأَعْمَشِ عَنْ حَبِيبِ بْنِ أَبِي ثَابِتٍ عَنْ أَبِي الطُّفَيْلِ عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ عَنْ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ مِثْلَهُ‏.‏

Grade: Sahih,  Reference : Musnad Ahmad 950, 951, 952 book reference : Book 5, Hadith 377

Q1: Has it been re constructed from your authentic sources with authentic chains?

 

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Sharh Mushkil al-Athar, Imam al-Tahawi:

كما حدثنا أحمد بنُ شُعيب قال: حدثنا أبو عوانة، عن سليمان – يعني الأعمش – قال: حدثنا حبيب بن أبي ثابت، عن أبي الطفيل، عن زيد بن أرقم قال:
لما رجع رسول الله (ص) عن حجة الوداع ونزل بغدير خم أمر بدوحات فقممن ثم قال :« كأني دعيت فأجبت إني قد تركت فيكم الثقلين أحدهما أكبر من الآخر كتاب الله عزّ وجل وعترتي أهل بيتي فانظروا كيف تخلفوني فيهما فإنهما لن يفترقا حتى يردا علي الحوض »، ثم قال : «إن الله عزّ وجل مولاي وأنا ولي كل مؤمن ومؤمنة» ثم أخذ بيد علي رضي الله عنه فقال : «من كنت وليه فهذا وليه ، اللهم وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه» ، فقلت لزيد : سمعته من رسول الله (ص) ؟ فقال : ما كان في الدوحات أحد إلاّ رآه بعينه وسمعه بأذنه )

 ثم قال الطحاوي : ( فهذا الحديث صحيح الإسناد لا طعن لأحد في أحد من رواته

 

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image.thumb.png.1072165fdf0721f645b0ce0e886e6be5.png

Mishkat Hadith 6103 By Zaid Bin Arqam and Bara Bin Aazib. One weak narrators means with external support of above authentic hadiths, this hadith becomes at least Hasan.

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@Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

You are wrong about something: 

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

One weak narrators means with external support of above authentic hadiths, this hadith becomes at least Hasan.

This is incorrect. A weak chain of narration [chain itself is weak] only becomes acceptable with a more authentic chain/narration like it. Even if all of the narrators are strong, it is still considered weak if the chain is disconnected or problematic. If the narrator himself is weak, and not known as someone who is doused in fasad, then the hadith becomes acceptable and can be used as proof.

 

Second, as for this narration:

2 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Sharh Mushkil al-Athar, Imam al-Tahawi:

كما حدثنا أحمد بنُ شُعيب قال: حدثنا أبو عوانة، عن سليمان – يعني الأعمش – قال: حدثنا حبيب بن أبي ثابت، عن أبي الطفيل، عن زيد بن أرقم قال:
لما رجع رسول الله (ص) عن حجة الوداع ونزل بغدير خم أمر بدوحات فقممن ثم قال :« كأني دعيت فأجبت إني قد تركت فيكم الثقلين أحدهما أكبر من الآخر كتاب الله عزّ وجل وعترتي أهل بيتي فانظروا كيف تخلفوني فيهما فإنهما لن يفترقا حتى يردا علي الحوض »، ثم قال : «إن الله عزّ وجل مولاي وأنا ولي كل مؤمن ومؤمنة» ثم أخذ بيد علي رضي الله عنه فقال : «من كنت وليه فهذا وليه ، اللهم وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه» ، فقلت لزيد : سمعته من رسول الله (ص) ؟ فقال : ما كان في الدوحات أحد إلاّ رآه بعينه وسمعه بأذنه )

 ثم قال الطحاوي : ( فهذا الحديث صحيح الإسناد لا طعن لأحد في أحد من روات

There is a problematic narrator:

2 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

حبيب بن أبي ثابت

Imam Tahawi has made a mistake by saying:

فهذا الحديث صحيح الإسناد لا طعن لأحد في أحد من رواته

 This person makes a defect in the narration you gave from Imam Tahawi's explanation as he was one who performs tadlis - something which is on the verge of being haram and hated by the scholars of hadith, ultimately deeming a hadith as unacceptable.

Second, concerning the same narrator:

إن حدثتكم عن ثقات أصحابي فإنما أحدثكم عن نفير يسير من هذه الشيعة الحكم بن عتيبة وحبيب بن أبي ثابت وسلمة بن كهيل ومنصور
الجرح والتعديل

This is from ibn Abu Hatim al-Razi, the teacher of Imam Nasa'i and Imam Abu Dawood; a renowned scholar of hadith who was excellent in verification - surpassing Imam Tahawi.

Again, something else concerning him:

حبيب بن أبى ثابت مولى بنى أسد أبويحيى واسم أبى ثابت قيس بن دينار مات سنة تسع عشرة ومائة وكان من خيار الكوفيين ومتقنيهم على تدليس فيه
مشاهير علماء الأمصار

Perhaps Imam Tahawi did not know, but it is certainly clear from the historians and masters of the sciences that he is not to be trusted - therefore the narration is unacceptable.

Therefore the narration by Imam Tahawi is rejected and not accepted due to the reasons provided [i.e. of the narrator Habib ibn Thabbit].

As for the narrator you have provided in the Mishkat al-Masabih:

Quote

 برَاء بْن عَازِب

Nothing is known of him; no biography, word of his character, etc. - therefore, we do not accept the hadith that you have provided because there is a weak narrator and an unknown narrator. We cannot even raise it to acceptable or weak. Therefore, this narration cannot be accepted whatsoever because of the aforementioned reasons.

Quote

.حدثنا سليمان بن عبيد الله الغيلاني، حدثنا أبو عامر، حدثنا كثير بن زيد، عن محمد بن عمر بن علي، عن أبيه، عن علي رضي الله عنه أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال :إني تركت فيكم ما إن أخذتم به لن تضلوا :كتاب الله، سببه بيد الله، وسببه بأيديكم، وأهل بيتي.

I have explained this narration an innumerable amount of times. However, since you claim it means what you believe it to me, then deconstruct it how I did. Attach the grammatical cases for each word and whatnot and prove to me that it means to what you are referring to.

2 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

It was narrated that Sa`eed bin Wahb. and Zaid bin Yuthai’ said:

‘Ali adjured the people at ar-Rahbah, saying: Whoever heard the messenger of Allah (ﷺ) speak on the day of Ghadeer Khumm, let him stand up. And (of the people) around Sa’eed, six men stood up, and (of the people) around Zaid, six men stood up, and they testified that they had heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say to ‘Ali (رضي الله عنه) on the day of Ghadeer Khumm. “Isn`t it Allah Who is closer to the believers?” They said: Yes. He said: `O Allah, if I am a person`s mawla (friend and supporter) then ‘Ali is also his mawla; O Allah, take as friends those who take him as a friend, and take as enemies those who take him as an enemy.” A hadeeth like that of Abu Ishaq was narrated from `Amr Dhi Murr, i.e., from Sa`eed and Zaid, and he added to it: `and support those who support him, and forsake those who forsake him.` A similar report was narrated from Abut-Tufail from Zaid bin Arqam from the Prophet (ﷺ).

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ، حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ حَكِيمٍ الْأَوْدِيُّ، أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ، عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ وَهْبٍ، وَعَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ يُثَيْعٍ، قَالَا نَشَدَ عَلِيٌّ النَّاسَ فِي الرَّحَبَةِ مَنْ سَمِعَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ إِلَّا قَامَ قَالَ فَقَامَ مِنْ قِبَلِ سَعِيدٍ سِتَّةٌ وَمِنْ قِبَلِ زَيْدٍ سِتَّةٌ فَشَهِدُوا أَنَّهُمْ سَمِعُوا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ لِعَلِيٍّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ يَوْمَ غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ أَلَيْسَ اللَّهُ أَوْلَى بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ قَالُوا بَلَى قَالَ اللَّهُمَّ مَنْ كُنْتُ مَوْلَاهُ فَعَلِيٌّ مَوْلَاهُ اللَّهُمَّ وَالِ مَنْ وَالَاهُ وَعَادِ مَنْ عَادَاهُ.
حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ حَكِيمٍ أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ عَنْ عَمْرٍو ذِي مُرٍّ بِمِثْلِ حَدِيثِ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ يَعْنِي عَنْ سَعِيدٍ وَزَيْدٍ وَزَادَ فِيهِ وَانْصُرْ مَنْ نَصَرَهُ وَاخْذُلْ مَنْ خَذَلَهُ.
حَدَّثَنَا عَبْد اللَّهِ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيٌّ أَنْبَأَنَا شَرِيكٌ عَنِ الْأَعْمَشِ عَنْ حَبِيبِ بْنِ أَبِي ثَابِتٍ عَنْ أَبِي الطُّفَيْلِ عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ عَنْ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ مِثْلَهُ‏.‏

Grade: Sahih,  Reference : Musnad Ahmad 950, 951, 952 book reference : Book 5, Hadith 377

So the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) got up out of nowhere to say that 'Ali is his beloved friend/supporter/ally? That seems unlikely. There is context behind it - just as there is context behind this narration, which I will ask for from you to provide it.

I have explained this narration, as well. I have explained the meaning of it and the whole nine yards. Now it is your turn, because I am tired of playing semantics in the English language only for people to do ta'weel of what they think it means based off of the English language rather than the original language it is in - Arabic.

Do not take the whole narration, because we have established that it is authentic. Use the Arabic language itself and explain things to me in the English language. Attach grammatical cases, syntax, etc. Stop playing with the English language. If you cannot do that, then I will not respond because it is a waste of time and energy. This will become endless.

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2 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

I already provided authentic narration to Support narration of Zaid Bin Arqam. And those narrations from Ali (عليه السلام) were authentic according to Twelver shia Salafi website as well. So proving narrators weak again is meaningless.

Habib Bin Abi Thabit is a Mudalis no doubt, but in other chains, he seems to mention narrator between him and Zayd Bin Arqam which is Abu Tufayl.

And for each and every sentence of that narrations of Mustadrak lil Hakim, we provided a Sahih, Hasan (li zatihi) Shahid (Support)  thus it gets authenticated.

If one narrator is weak and the other is a mudalis, then the narration is rejected - plain and simple. No room for interpretation. That is how the science works. It does not get authenticated because another narration is like it and similar. This only applies for someone who is weak and not a liar or corrupt in character - Habib is that. Therefore, it is not counted. I do not know who you learned Ilm ar-rijjal from, but it is not how you explained. That is completely wrong. It is not authenticated and this is not from our sciences.

4 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

ALi bin Zaid is Just known as weak. He isn't kazzab so his narration can be authenticated. Anyways i provided other chains to Zaid Bin Arqam that has Sahih or Hasan shahwahid. Thus the narration is authentic.

Wrong. The narration still contains someone corrupt in character, therefore rejected.

5 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

http://hadith.islam-db.com/narrators/1157/الْبَرَاءِ بْنِ عَازِبٍ

He is one of companions.

Plus hadith says Baraa Bin Aazib and Zaid Bin Arqam

This is not how our sciences work. It does not work on inference. Nothing is known about this man. There is no biography written on him. He is not confirmed to be a liar, a strong narrator, etc. Therefore, he is not to be taken from. This is how our sciences work.

7 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

You can do this because you know arabic. So you can always ask for that to twist the things. All i can say is there is command to adhere to two things according to translation provided by your well known institutes. maybe you know arabic more than your scholars.

1 hour ago, Nightclaw said:

This is how I can differentiate someone who knows and who does not know. I am in no way, shape, or form twisting the Arabic. Arabic does not change according to what I want, but what the context is. You can literally go on Google to confirm what I had wrote - it is not that hard to understand. There is no need to lie and contort things. You act as if I am trying to hide and make things my way - no. It literally means what I say because of the language. There is nothing you nor I can do about it.

Translation is there, for sure. However, what is meant by it? I can say the following words: "I want you to follow me." - Is there not context behind it? No? Yes, there is. I could mean follow me on social media. Follow me (literally). Follow me (follow my lead). Follow me (metaphorically). All of these are literally constructed the same with different meanings, depending on what? The context. It does not take an Arabic genius to know this. This is prevalent in ALL languages. I am not trying to twist things. I am literally trying to get to the crux of the matter at hand so we can understand these narrations. 

It is pointless discussing about things in which we have no command over - in this case, the Arabic language for you. You have demonstrated that you do not understand the science of men for us and the Arabic language. There is no problem in this as long as one is sincere. The problem comes when you try to dictate and act as an authorative figure when you do not know the language in which you want to make these assumptions, assessments, and conclusions. The problem comes when you say what is authentic in our books and what is not while demonstrating you do not understand nor fully comprehend the science of men for us.

So again, I ask - deconstruct the sentence. It is not that hard. Use Google or Arabic sites online, if you need to. Just deconstruct the sentence and you will see exactly what it means. 

15 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Exactly, then you finally accepted that this context doesn't fit Ghadeer e khum because it comes from 1. Doubtful Book 2. Doubtful and Unclear narrations

Thats what we having been telling people for over a thousand years. It can only mean leadership in that context.

No, it was definitely at Ghadir al-Khumm. I do not know what "doubtful book/narration" you speak of. 

As a matter of fact, watch this from minute 40 and onwards:

 

 

And this:

You can start from the first part, though.

Again, refer to the heading of "Consolation of 'Ali" in Tarikh al-Islam: volume 1, page 241. 

I would refer to it in Arabic and describe how it correlates to Ghadir Khumm, but I truly feel as if it would be pointless because you do not view things objectively to begin with. You would say I am twisting things. It is like trying to explain anatomy to a blacksmith. Anatomy does not change and is always stagnant [though conditions do change]. You can make whatever you want as a blacksmith. 

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Sibt bin Jawzī, after giving ten meanings of the word in his Tadhkirah al-Khawās, proves that none of them except the tenth one, which is “master”, corresponds with what the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) meant to say. He says: “The hadith specifically means obedience; so the tenth meaning is correct, and it means ‘mastery over others’”. Sibt bin Jawzī adds, “Asking people that am I the master of the believers? And, do I have more rights over the believers than they have over their own selves? Clearly proves the Imamate or vicegerency of Ali ((عليه السلام)), and that obedience to him is obligatory.”

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49 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

You can do this because you know arabic

I have seen his knowledge of Arabic. He is champion in deducting two meanings for اتبعتموهما and i.e., to follow one & take care of other out of thaqalain. 

:hahaha:

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9 minutes ago, Cool said:

Sibt bin Jawzī, after giving ten meanings of the word in his Tadhkirah al-Khawās, proves that none of them except the tenth one, which is “master”, corresponds with what the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) meant to say. He says: “The hadith specifically means obedience; so the tenth meaning is correct, and it means ‘mastery over others’”. Sibt bin Jawzī adds, “Asking people that am I the master of the believers? And, do I have more rights over the believers than they have over their own selves? Clearly proves the Imamate or vicegerency of Ali ((عليه السلام)), and that obedience to him is obligatory.”

This man was described as a Shi'a or with Shi'a leniencies and it shows in his works. Nobody claims this man as a Sunni, moreover.

 

Assalamu 'alaykum.

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

I have seen his knowledge of Arabic. He is champion in deducting two meanings for اتبعتموهما and i.e., to follow one & take care of other out of thaqalain. 

:hahaha:

Think about it from his perspective. Even hinting at accepting any clear proof will mean he has to reconsider his entire position, along with the position of his teachers.

There's more comfort in believing that the rawafid have their own secret pseudo-Arabic different and wrong from 'actual' Arabic.

أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ أَمْ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبٍ أَقْفَالُهَ

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@Nightclaw

Alright. @Mahdavist @Muslim2010 etc Other brothers who know arabic more might get to it when they are free. I don't need to interpret it. I would stick to "Context" of Ghadeer e Khum so you might no get annoyed.

I think you need to refer back to "Sunni Researchers" like Wajahat Al-Hussein Al-Hanafi, Syed Hossein Bukhari etc to understand what i am saying.

The Hadith of Baraa Bin Aazib & Zaid Bin Arqam according to Zubari Ali Zai has one weak narrator who is Ali Bin Zaid. So hadith itself is weak. But all words of hadith has at least Sahih li zaatihi Shahid which is hadith of Ali ibn Abi Tablib (عليه السلام). Since Zubair Ali Zai graded it has Weak, and not daef jiddan, thus weak will rise to level of hasan li ghairihi with that support.

Also you cannot do anything about a narrator based upon his mathab. How old this law is in your hadith sciences? Do let people know. I heard Wajahat Al-Hussein Al-Hanafi say that this usool comes from a Nasibi that narration of innovator in support of his religion should be rejected. Its your own people admitting it. And you can check this on his channel.

As for Trust worthiness of Habib:

أبو أحمد بن عدي الجرجاني : ثقة حجة كما قاله بن معين، ولعل ليس في الكوفيين كبير أحد مثله لشهرته وصحة حديثه وفي أئمتهم يجمع حديثه
أبو الفتح الأزدي : ثقة صدوق
أبو بكر البيهقي : من الثقات ولكنه كان يدلس، ومرة: ذكره في السنن الكبرى ونقل عن سفيان الثوري أنه قال: لم يرو عن عاصم بن ضمرة شيئا قط
أبو بكر بن عياش : كان بالكوفة ثلاثة ليس لهم رابع: هو، والحكم، وحماد بن أبي سليمان، هؤلاء أصحاب الفتيا
أبو حاتم الرازي : صدوق ثقة
أبو حاتم بن حبان البستي : كان مدلسا
أحمد بن شعيب النسائي : ثقة
أحمد بن صالح الجيلي : ثقة ثبت في الحديث
ابن حجر العسقلاني : ثقة فقيه جليل وكان كثير الإرسال والتدليس، مرة: متفق على الاحتجاج به إنما عابوا عليه التدليس
الدارقطني : يكثر التدليس
الذهبي : ثقة مجتهد فقيه
سليمان بن مهران الأعمش : قال لي حبيب بن أبي ثابت: لو أن رجلا حدثني عنك ما باليت أن أرويه عنك
محمد بن إسحاق بن خزيمة : كان مدلسا
محمد بن جرير الطبري : كان ذا فقه وعلم
مصنفوا تحرير تقريب التهذيب : ثقة فقيه جليل، وقوله: كثير الإرسال والتدليس فيه نظر ولا يصح
يحيى بن سعيد القطان : حبيب بن أبي ثابت عن عطاء ليست بمحفوظة، إن كانت محفوظة فقد نزل عنها
يحيى بن معين : ثقة حجة قيل له ثبت قال نعم

There is no doubt about his trust worthiness. He is labeled as a Mudalis though but when Shawahid for his hadith are found, and the narrator he concealed in Jami At Tirimdhi are found in Mustadrak's narration, then without a doubt that hadith becomes authentic.

Also don't mix chain of bara bin aazib with this one. These are two seperate chains.

 

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1 minute ago, Nightclaw said:

This man was described as a Shi'a or with Shi'a leniencies and it shows in his works. Nobody claims this man as a Sunni, moreover.

For your information:

Shams al-Dīn Yūsuf b. Qizughlī (d. 1256), better known as Sibṭ ibn al-Jawzī, was the grandson (through his mother’s side) of the great twelfth-century Ḥanbalī theologian and jurist Abū al-Faraj ibn al-Jawzī (d. 1201). Although raised in Baghdad during his earlier years, where he studied with his grandfather and other senior scholars, he moved to Damascus around the year 1202 where he joined the service of the Ayyubid Sultans of Syria. It was around this time that he abandoned the Ḥanbalī school in favor of Ḥanafism.

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31 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

No, it was definitely at Ghadir al-Khumm. I do not know what "doubtful book/narration" you speak of.

Please Prove it. Jazak'Allah

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المستدرك على الصحيحين

كِتَابُ مَعْرِفَةِ الصَّحَابَةِ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ

 ذِكْرُ زَيْدِ بْنِ الْأَرْقَمِ الْأَنْصَارِيِّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ

 

 حديث رقم 6333

 

6333 أَخْبَرَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَلِيٍّ الشَّيْبَانِيُّ بِالْكُوفَةِ ، ثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ حَازِمٍ الْغِفَارِيُّ ، ثَنَا أَبُو نُعَيْمٍ ، ثَنَا كَامِلٌ أَبُو الْعَلَاءِ ، قَالَ : سَمِعْتُ حَبِيبَ بْنَ أَبِي ثَابِتٍ يُخْبِرُ ، عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ جَعْدَةَ ، عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ : خَرَجْنَا مَعَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ حَتَّى انْتَهَيْنَا إِلَى غَدِيرِ خُمٍّ فَأَمَرَ بِدَوْحٍ ، فَكُسِحَ فِي يَوْمٍ مَا أَتَى عَلَيْنَا يَوْمٌ كَانَ أَشَدَّ حَرًّا مِنْهُ فَحَمِدَ اللَّهَ وَأَثْنَى عَلَيْهِ وَقَالَ : يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ ، إِنَّهُ لَمْ يُبْعَثْ نَبِيٌّ قَطُّ إِلَّا مَا عَاشَ نِصْفَ مَا عَاشَ الَّذِي كَانَ قَبْلَهُ ، وَإِنِّي أُوشِكُ أَنْ أُدْعَى فَأُجِيبَ ، وَإِنِّي تَارِكٌ فِيكُمْ مَا لَنْ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدَهُ كِتَابَ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ ، ثُمَّ قَامَ فَأَخَذَ بِيَدِ عَلِيٍّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ فَقَالَ : يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ ، مَنْ أَوْلَى بِكُمْ مِنْ أَنْفُسِكُمْ ؟ قَالُوا : اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَعْلَمُ ، أَلَسْتُ أَوْلَى بِكُمْ مِنْ أَنْفُسِكُمْ ؟ قَالُوا : بَلَى ، قَالَ : مَنْ كُنْتُ مَوْلَاهُ فَعَلِيٌّ مَوْلَاهُ هَذَا حَدِيثٌ صَحِيحُ الْإِسْنَادِ ، وَلَمْ يُخَرِّجَاهُ

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يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ ، مَنْ أَوْلَى بِكُمْ مِنْ أَنْفُسِكُمْ ؟

The way in which the hadith has been narrated in, itself proves that the word “mawla” means “master”. The Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), in his address at Ghadir, asked the people: “Have I not a greater claim on you than you have on yourselves?” This refers to the words of the Holy Qur’an:

النَّبىِ‏ُّ أَوْلىَ‏ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ مِنْ أَنفُسِهِم1]

“The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have on themselves.” (33:6)

قَالُوا : بَلَى 

All of them said with one voice that he had a greater claim on them than they had on themselves. After that, the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “Of whomsoever I am the ‘mawla’, this Ali is also his ‘mawla’”. So from the context of his speech, it follows that the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) meant “authority” or “mastery over others” when he used the word “mawla”.

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13 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

@Nightclaw

Alright. @Mahdavist @Muslim2010 etc Other brothers who know arabic more might get to it when they are free. I don't need to interpret it. I would stick to "Context" of Ghadeer e Khum so you might no get annoyed.

I think you need to refer back to "Sunni Researchers" like Wajahat Al-Hussein Al-Hanafi, Syed Hossein Bukhari etc to understand what i am saying.

The Hadith of Baraa Bin Aazib & Zaid Bin Arqam according to Zubari Ali Zai has one weak narrator who is Ali Bin Zaid. So hadith itself is weak. But all words of hadith has at least Sahih li zaatihi Shahid which is hadith of Ali ibn Abi Tablib (عليه السلام). Since Zubair Ali Zai graded it has Weak, and not daef jiddan, thus weak will rise to level of hasan li ghairihi with that support.

The hadith of ghadeer is متواتر and it is authentic. Many sources both shia and sunni and companions more than 100 have narrated it

 I do not find any reason to respond to the one who is fond of distorting the meaning of arabic statements to clarify about any narrator forمتواتر hadith  . One example i have mentioned to clarify the meaning of Mawla for the hadith ghadeer in response to his distorted meaning The link is given below:

 

wasalam

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وقال الإمام أحمد: حدثنا عفان، حدثنا أبو عوانة، عن المغيرة، عن أبي عبيد، عن ميمون بن أبي عبد الله قال: قال زيد بن أرقم وأنا أسمع: نزلنا مع رسول الله بوادٍ يقال له واد خُم، فأمر بالصلاة فصلاها بهجير.

قال: فخطبنا وظلل لرسول الله ﷺ بثوب على شجرة سمر من الشمس فقال: « ألستم تعلمون - أو لستم تشهدون - إني أولى بكل مؤمن من نفسه؟ ».

قالوا: بلى!

قال: « فمن كنت مولاه، فإن عليا مولاه، اللهم عاد من عاداه ووالِ من والاه ».

وكذا رواه أحمد: عن غندر، عن شعبة، عن ميمون بن أبي عبد الله، عن زيد بن أرقم.

وقد رواه عن زيد بن أرقم جماعة منهم أبو إسحاق السبيعي، و حبيب الأساف و عطية العوفي و أبو عبد الله الشامي، و أبو الطفيل عامر بن واثلة.

وقد رواه معروف بن حربوذ، عن أبي الطفيل، عن حذيفة بن أسيد قال: لما قفل رسول الله من حجة الوداع نهى أصحابه عن شجرات بالبطحاء متقاربات أن ينزلوا حولهن، ثم بعث إليهن فصلى تحتهن.

ثم قام فقال: « أيها الناس قد نبأني اللطيف الخبير أنه لم يعمر نبي إلا مثل نصف عمر الذي قبله، وإني لأظن أن يوشك أن ادعى فأجيب، وإني مسؤول وأنتم مسؤلون، فماذا أنتم قائلون؟ ».

قالوا: نشهد أنك قد بلّغت ونصحت وجهدت فجزاك الله خيرا.

قال: « ألستم تشهدون أن لا إله إلا الله، وأن محمدا عبده ورسوله، وأن جنته حق، وأن ناره حق، وأن الموت حق، وأن الساعة آتية لا ريب فيها، وأن الله يبعث من في القبور؟ ».

قالوا: بلى نشهد بذلك.

قال: « اللهم أشهد ».

ثم قال: « يا أيها الناس، إن الله مولاي، وأنا مولى المؤمنين، وأنا أولى بهم من أنفسهم من كنت مولاه فهذا مولاه، اللهم والِ من والاه، وعادِ من عاداه ».

ثم قال: « أيها الناس إني فرطكم وإنكم واردون عليّ الحوض، حوض أعرض مما بين بصرى وصنعاء فيه آنية عدد النجوم قدحان من فضة، وإني سائلكم حين تردون عليّ عن الثقلين فانظروا كيف تخلفوني فيهما؟ الثقل الأكبر كتاب الله سبب طرفه بيد الله، وطرف بأيديكم فاستمسكوا به لا تضلوا ولا تبدلوا، وعترتي أهل بيتي فإنه قد نبأني اللطيف الخبير إنهما لن يفترقا حتى يردا عليّ الحوض

 

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4 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Alright. @Mahdavist @Muslim2010 etc Other brothers who know arabic more might get to it when they are free. I don't need to interpret it. I would stick to "Context" of Ghadeer e Khum so you might no get annoyed.

This is a bit redundant. Why would you make a claim that you need others to back you up on? Why do you, someone who does not comprehend Arabic grammar, try to superimpose a meaning on that which you lack understanding of? That is what annoys me the most. It is like me going to a Chinese man and telling him about the Art of War by Sun Tzu and what it means linguistically.

 

7 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

I think you need to refer back to "Sunni Researchers" like Wajahat Al-Hussein Al-Hanafi, Syed Hossein Bukhari etc to understand what i am saying.

Stop quoting these people. It is strawman argument and will not be in your favor. These people are not qualified nor scholars, therefore I do not [nor should any other Muslims] take from them unless it is in accordance with the Qur'an and Sunnah. I have never heard of these people. 

 

9 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Now the Hadith of Habib Bin Abi Thabit you cannot do anything about a narrator based upon his mathab. How old this law is in your hadith sciences? Do let people know. I heard Wajahat Al-Hussein Al-Hanafi say that this usool comes from a Nasibi that narration of innovator in support of his religion should be rejected. Its your own people admitting it. And you can check this on his channel.

Being a Shi'a is not a madhab - it is an entirely different thing. How old is this law? Look up the history of our hadith science. I really should not have to explain this. Stop relying on these YouTube Ustadh's and Shaykh Google to prove points. I do not care what these people think, so do not use them against me.

 

19 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

The Hadith of Baraa Bin Aazib & Zaid Bin Arqam according to Zubari Ali Zai has one weak narrator who is Ali Bin Zaid. So hadith itself is weak. But all words of hadith has at least Sahih li zaatihi Shahid which is hadith of Ali ibn Abi Tablib (عليه السلام). Since Zubair Ali Zai graded it has Weak, and not daef jiddan, thus weak will rise to level of hasan li ghairihi with that support.

Bar'a is unknown and Zaid bin Arqam is weak. The hadith is not accepted. I keep telling you this and you are saying otherwise - no. That is not how it works. It would be the case if it was only ONE narrator who was weak due to memory and not other reasons. Two or more results it in being unacceptable.

 

22 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

As for Trust worthiness of Habib:

أبو أحمد بن عدي الجرجاني : ثقة حجة كما قاله بن معين، ولعل ليس في الكوفيين كبير أحد مثله لشهرته وصحة حديثه وفي أئمتهم يجمع حديثه
أبو الفتح الأزدي : ثقة صدوق
أبو بكر البيهقي : من الثقات ولكنه كان يدلس، ومرة: ذكره في السنن الكبرى ونقل عن سفيان الثوري أنه قال: لم يرو عن عاصم بن ضمرة شيئا قط
أبو بكر بن عياش : كان بالكوفة ثلاثة ليس لهم رابع: هو، والحكم، وحماد بن أبي سليمان، هؤلاء أصحاب الفتيا
أبو حاتم الرازي : صدوق ثقة
أبو حاتم بن حبان البستي : كان مدلسا
أحمد بن شعيب النسائي : ثقة
أحمد بن صالح الجيلي : ثقة ثبت في الحديث
ابن حجر العسقلاني : ثقة فقيه جليل وكان كثير الإرسال والتدليس، مرة: متفق على الاحتجاج به إنما عابوا عليه التدليس
الدارقطني : يكثر التدليس
الذهبي : ثقة مجتهد فقيه
سليمان بن مهران الأعمش : قال لي حبيب بن أبي ثابت: لو أن رجلا حدثني عنك ما باليت أن أرويه عنك
محمد بن إسحاق بن خزيمة : كان مدلسا
محمد بن جرير الطبري : كان ذا فقه وعلم
مصنفوا تحرير تقريب التهذيب : ثقة فقيه جليل، وقوله: كثير الإرسال والتدليس فيه نظر ولا يصح
يحيى بن سعيد القطان : حبيب بن أبي ثابت عن عطاء ليست بمحفوظة، إن كانت محفوظة فقد نزل عنها
يحيى بن معين : ثقة حجة قيل له ثبت قال نعم

Where are the references for these? Also, I do not accept from a mudlis - and neither should anyone else.

28 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

There is no doubt about his trust worthiness. He is labeled as a Mudalis though but when Shawahid for his hadith are found, and the narrator he concealed in Jami At Tirimdhi are found in Mustadrak's narration, then without a doubt that hadith becomes authentic.

Unknown narrators do not count as witnesses. The hadith is already rendered unacceptable. 

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@Nightclaw

حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْمُنْذِرِ، حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ فُضَيْلٍ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا الأَعْمَشُ، عَنْ عَطِيَّةَ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ،  قَالاَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ إِنِّي تَارِكٌ فِيكُمْ مَا

إِنْ تَمَسَّكْتُمْ بِهِ لَنْ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدِي أَحَدُهُمَا أَعْظَمُ مِنَ الآخَرِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ حَبْلٌ مَمْدُودٌ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ إِلَى الأَرْضِ وَعِتْرَتِي أَهْلُ بَيْتِي وَلَنْ يَتَفَرَّقَا حَتَّى يَرِدَا عَلَىَّ الْحَوْضَ فَانْظُرُوا كَيْفَ تَخْلُفُونِي فِيهِمَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ غَرِيبٌ ‏.‏

Tirimdhi 3788

Ali Bin Munzir:

أبو بكر الإسماعيلي : في القلب منه شيء، لست أخيره
أبو حاتم الرازي : محله الصدق
أحمد بن شعيب النسائي : شيعي محض ثقة
ابن أبي حاتم الرازي : صدوق ثقة (You like Uncle Ibn Abi Hatim Alot)
ابن حجر العسقلاني : صدوق يتشيع
الدارقطني : في سؤالات أبي عبد الرحمن السلمي، قال: لا بأس به
محمد بن عبد الله بن نمير : ثقة صدوق
مسلمة بن القاسم الأندلسي : لا بأس به كان يتشيع
مصنفوا تحرير تقريب التهذيب : ثقة، وليس للرجل ذكر ولا رواية في كتب الشيعة

Muhammad Bin Fuzail:

أبو الفرج بن الجوزي : ثقة
أبو حاتم الرازي : شيخ (You trust him)
أبو حاتم بن حبان البستي : كان يغلو في التشيع
أبو دواد السجستاني : كان شيعيا محترقا
أبو زرعة الرازي : صدوق من أهل العلم
أحمد بن حنبل : كان يتشيع، وكان حسن الحديث
أحمد بن شعيب النسائي : ليس به بأس
أحمد بن صالح الجيلي : ثقة كان يتشيع
إبراهيم بن يعقوب الجوزجاني : زائغ عن الحق
ابن حجر العسقلاني : صدوق عارف رمي بالتشيع
الدارقطني : ثبت في الحديث، منحرف عن عثمان
الذهبي : صدوق مشهور، ومرة: ثقة شيعي
علي بن المديني : ثقة ثبت في الحديث
محمد بن سعد كاتب الواقدي : ثقة صدوق كثير الحديث متشيع، بعضهم لا يحتج به
محمد بن عبد الله المخرمي : لم يرضه
يحيى بن معين : ثقة
يعقوب بن سفيان الفسوي : ثقة شيعي

Al-Amash:


أبو بكر بن عياش : كنا نسميه سيد المحدثين
أبو حاتم الرازي : ثقة يحتج بحديثه
أبو زرعة الرازي : إمام
أحمد بن شعيب النسائي : ثقة ثبت
أحمد بن صالح الجيلي : ثقة ثبت كان محدث أهل الكوفة في زمانه يقال إنه ظهر له أربع آلاف حديث ولم يكن له كتاب وكان يقريء الناس القرآن رأس فيه وكان فصيحا وكان لا يلحن حرفا وكان فيه تشيع يسير
ابن حجر العسقلاني : ثقة حافظ عارف بالقراءات ورع لكنه يدلس، وذكره فيمن يحتمل تدليسه لإمامته، ومرة : أحد الأعلام الحفاظ والقراء
الحسين بن علي الكرابيسي : محدث الكوفة وقارؤها وكان يدلس
الذهبي : الحافظ أحد الأعلام، يدلس وربما دلس عن ضعيف ولا يدري به فمتى قال حدثنا فلا كلام ومتى قال عن تطرق اليه احتمال التدليس الا في شيوخ له أكثر عنهم كإبراهيم وأبي وائل وأبي صالح السمان 
يحيى بن سعيد القطان : علامة الإسلام
يحيى بن معين : ثقة، ومرة: لا يصح له سماع من أنس، ولكن له رؤية، ومرة أيضا قيل له: الأعمش سمع من ابن أبي أوفى ؟ فقال: لا مرسل

Attiyah Bin Saad Al Aufi is also Thiqa

Abu Saed Al-Khudri is Sahabi.

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عن ابن شوذب، عن مطر الوراق، عن شهر بن حوشب، عن أبي هريرة قال: من صام يوم ثماني عشرة ذي الحجة كتب له صيام ستين شهرا، وهو يوم غدير خم، لما أخذ النبي ﷺ بيد علي بن أبي طالب.

فقال: « ألست ولي المؤمنين؟ ».

قالوا: بلى يا رسول الله!

قال: « من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه ».

فقال عمر بن الخطاب: بخ بخ لك يا ابن أبي طالب، أصبحت مولاي، ومولى كل مسلم، فأنزل الله عز وجل: « اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم 

I am wondering why Umar said

بخ بخ لك يا ابن ابي طالب

Was he congratulating Ali (عليه السلام) for becoming friend of all believers?

:hahaha:

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2 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Stop quoting these people. It is strawman argument and will not be in your favor. These people are not qualified nor scholars, therefore I do not [nor should any other Muslims] take from them unless it is in accordance with the Qur'an and Sunnah. I have never heard of these people. 

And you are qualified enough to reject Imam tahwais grading?

3 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Bar'a is unknown and Zaid bin Arqam is weak. The hadith is not accepted. I keep telling you this and you are saying otherwise - no. That is not how it works. It would be the case if it was only ONE narrator who was weak due to memory and not other reasons. Two or more results it in being unacceptable.

 

You clearly don't know about it or you are doing it on purpose.

4 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Unknown narrators do not count as witnesses. The hadith is already rendered unacceptable. 

How is a Sahabi Majhool? 

ابن حجر العسقلاني : صحابي مشهور استصغر يوم بدر ومرة: له ولأبيه صحبة
المزي : صحابي
أبو حاتم الرازي : له صحبة

3 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Where are the references for these? Also, I do not accept from a mudlis - and neither should anyone else.

38 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

https://hadith.islam-db.com/

http://hadithtransmitters.hawramani.com/

if i would goto find pds for everything, it would take alot of time which I don't have.

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@Nightclaw Whatever interpretation you may give to the word “mawla”, it is an acknowledged fact that the companions made a promise to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) on that day. Even if we suppose for the moment that by “mawla” the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) meant merely “friend”, does friendship mean that they should set fire to Ali’s house, terrify his family, and threaten him with drawn swords, after the death of the Holy Prophet? Didn’t they break their pledge? Did they fulfill the conditions of friendship?

Mod Note: Sort of on topic but let's keep opinions not related to the topic out of the disucssion. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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14 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

@Nightclaw

حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْمُنْذِرِ، حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ فُضَيْلٍ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا الأَعْمَشُ، عَنْ عَطِيَّةَ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ،  قَالاَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ إِنِّي تَارِكٌ فِيكُمْ مَا

إِنْ تَمَسَّكْتُمْ بِهِ لَنْ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدِي أَحَدُهُمَا أَعْظَمُ مِنَ الآخَرِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ حَبْلٌ مَمْدُودٌ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ إِلَى الأَرْضِ وَعِتْرَتِي أَهْلُ بَيْتِي وَلَنْ يَتَفَرَّقَا حَتَّى يَرِدَا عَلَىَّ الْحَوْضَ فَانْظُرُوا كَيْفَ تَخْلُفُونِي فِيهِمَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ غَرِيبٌ ‏.‏

Tirimdhi 3788

Ali Bin Munzir:

أبو بكر الإسماعيلي : في القلب منه شيء، لست أخيره
أبو حاتم الرازي : محله الصدق
أحمد بن شعيب النسائي : شيعي محض ثقة
ابن أبي حاتم الرازي : صدوق ثقة (You like Uncle Ibn Abi Hatim Alot)
ابن حجر العسقلاني : صدوق يتشيع
الدارقطني : في سؤالات أبي عبد الرحمن السلمي، قال: لا بأس به
محمد بن عبد الله بن نمير : ثقة صدوق
مسلمة بن القاسم الأندلسي : لا بأس به كان يتشيع
مصنفوا تحرير تقريب التهذيب : ثقة، وليس للرجل ذكر ولا رواية في كتب الشيعة

Muhammad Bin Fuzail:

أبو الفرج بن الجوزي : ثقة
أبو حاتم الرازي : شيخ (You trust him)
أبو حاتم بن حبان البستي : كان يغلو في التشيع
أبو دواد السجستاني : كان شيعيا محترقا
أبو زرعة الرازي : صدوق من أهل العلم
أحمد بن حنبل : كان يتشيع، وكان حسن الحديث
أحمد بن شعيب النسائي : ليس به بأس
أحمد بن صالح الجيلي : ثقة كان يتشيع
إبراهيم بن يعقوب الجوزجاني : زائغ عن الحق
ابن حجر العسقلاني : صدوق عارف رمي بالتشيع
الدارقطني : ثبت في الحديث، منحرف عن عثمان
الذهبي : صدوق مشهور، ومرة: ثقة شيعي
علي بن المديني : ثقة ثبت في الحديث
محمد بن سعد كاتب الواقدي : ثقة صدوق كثير الحديث متشيع، بعضهم لا يحتج به
محمد بن عبد الله المخرمي : لم يرضه
يحيى بن معين : ثقة
يعقوب بن سفيان الفسوي : ثقة شيعي

Al-Amash:


أبو بكر بن عياش : كنا نسميه سيد المحدثين
أبو حاتم الرازي : ثقة يحتج بحديثه
أبو زرعة الرازي : إمام
أحمد بن شعيب النسائي : ثقة ثبت
أحمد بن صالح الجيلي : ثقة ثبت كان محدث أهل الكوفة في زمانه يقال إنه ظهر له أربع آلاف حديث ولم يكن له كتاب وكان يقريء الناس القرآن رأس فيه وكان فصيحا وكان لا يلحن حرفا وكان فيه تشيع يسير
ابن حجر العسقلاني : ثقة حافظ عارف بالقراءات ورع لكنه يدلس، وذكره فيمن يحتمل تدليسه لإمامته، ومرة : أحد الأعلام الحفاظ والقراء
الحسين بن علي الكرابيسي : محدث الكوفة وقارؤها وكان يدلس
الذهبي : الحافظ أحد الأعلام، يدلس وربما دلس عن ضعيف ولا يدري به فمتى قال حدثنا فلا كلام ومتى قال عن تطرق اليه احتمال التدليس الا في شيوخ له أكثر عنهم كإبراهيم وأبي وائل وأبي صالح السمان 
يحيى بن سعيد القطان : علامة الإسلام
يحيى بن معين : ثقة، ومرة: لا يصح له سماع من أنس، ولكن له رؤية، ومرة أيضا قيل له: الأعمش سمع من ابن أبي أوفى ؟ فقال: لا مرسل

Attiyah Bin Saad Al Aufi is also Thiqa

Abu Saed Al-Khudri is Sahabi.

image.thumb.png.4ddc5cd26f5fdebe266d74288803a7b5.png 

Al-Amash has heard from Attiyah Al-Aufi he used hadthni in Kitab us Sunnah.

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2 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

You clearly don't know about it or you are doing it on purpose.

14 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

I am literally telling you how it works. If you have two or more people that are problematic in some way, the narration because unacceptable.

3 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

And you are qualified enough to reject Imam tahwais grading?

15 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

If there is a defect, yes.

3 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

How is a Sahabi Majhool? 

ابن حجر العسقلاني : صحابي مشهور استصغر يوم بدر ومرة: له ولأبيه صحبة
المزي : صحابي
أبو حاتم الرازي : له صحبة

Some companions were weak in narration. Secondly, this narration is not widespread.

5 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

if i would goto find pds for everything, it would take alot of time which I don't have.

http://hadithtransmitters.hawramani.com/?s=حبيب+بن+أبي+ثابت

Confirms what I say. They even gave the books and whatnot.

Point still stands - he is not to be trusted.

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On 11/22/2020 at 6:15 AM, Nightclaw said:

Point still stands - he is not to be trusted.

:D how many of them are not to be trusted. Go through the link and find out many chains & transmitters:

https://ar.m.wikisource.org/wiki/البداية_والنهاية/الجزء_السابع/حديث_غدير_خم

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He doesn't know anything about about these things.

22 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Some companions were weak in narration. Secondly, this narration is not widespread.

30 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Lol.

Zaid Bin Arqam is weak

bara Bin Azib is Majhool

And he says i don't know anything about hadith sciences.

A kid who knows the very basics of your hadiths sciences knows about الصحابة كلهم عدول and here you are denying it.

I don't have anymore time to waste. Allah Hafiz

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
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16 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

A kid who knows the very basics of your hadiths sciences knows about الصحابة كلهم عدول and here you are denying it.

 

وقال النووي رحمه الله : "الصحابة كلهم عدول، من لابس الفتنة وغيرهم، بإجماع من يعتد به
التقريب والتيسير

2 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

This is not how our sciences work. It does not work on inference. Nothing is known about this man. There is no biography written on him. He is not confirmed to be a liar, a strong narrator, etc. Therefore, he is not to be taken from. This is how our sciences work.

2 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

https://islamqa.info/ar/answers/271569/حول-مفهوم-عدالة-الصحابة-وهل-يقدح-فيها-وجود-المنافقين-ومن-اتى-بمفسق-كالوليد-بن-عقبة

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