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In the Name of God بسم الله

Refutation of Reviving Al-Islam (Nader Zaveri) on Marriage of Syeda Umme Kulthum Bint Ali (عليه السلام) with Umar

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On 11/21/2020 at 4:38 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:
Here is a Hasan hadeeth in which it is giving the background on how the marriage came into fruition. This sheds some light into the narration about “forced/coerced”.
 
مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ لَمَّا خَطَبَ إِلَيْهِ قَالَ لَهُ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِنَّهَا صَبِيَّةٌ قَالَ فَلَقِيَ الْعَبَّاسَ فَقَالَ لَهُ مَا لِي أَ بِي بَأْسٌ قَالَ وَ مَا ذَاكَ قَالَ خَطَبْتُ إِلَى ابْنِ أَخِيكَ فَرَدَّنِي أَمَا وَ اللَّهِ لَأُعَوِّرَنَّ زَمْزَمَ وَ لَا أَدَعُ لَكُمْ مَكْرُمَةً إِلَّا هَدَمْتُهَا وَ لَأُقِيمَنَّ عَلَيْهِ شَاهِدَيْنِ بِأَنَّهُ سَرَقَ وَ لَأَقْطَعَنَّ يَمِينَهُ فَأَتَاهُ الْعَبَّاسُ فَأَخْبَرَهُ وَ سَأَلَهُ أَنْ يَجْعَلَ الْأَمْرَ إِلَيْهِ فَجَعَلَهُ إِلَيْهِ
 
Hishaam bin Saalim from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) he said: “When he (`Umar) address (proposed) to him (`Alee). Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (عليه السلام) said to him “She is a child”. He said: So he (`Umar) met Al-`Abbaas and he said to him: “What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me?” He (Abbaas) said: “And what is the matter?” He (Umar) said: “I addressed (proposed) before your brother's son (nephew), and he denied me. I swear by Allaah, I will fill the zamzam, leave no honor for you without being destroyed. I will bring two witnesses upon him and (prove) he (is guilty) of theft, and I will cut his right (hand)!” Then Al-`Abbaas went to him (Imaam `Alee) and gave him the news (of what happened). And he (Abbaas) asked him (`Alee) to put the matter to him (Abbaas). And he (`Alee) agreed.”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 5, pg. 346, hadeeth # 2
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 20, pg. 42
2.       Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad
à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 28
à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696

I wouldn't have talked about such matter. But, since this topic came up. It is worth noting that this hadith which Mr. Nadir is producing as authentic fails their aqaids. Firstly, It proves that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was not in favor of child marriage which is actually attributed to Prophet (PBUHHP) for marrying Hazrat Ayesha (رضي الله عنه). Secondly, it proves that Hazrat Umer (رضي الله عنه) was not a man of faith rather tried to threat for closing well of zamzam and allege Imam Ali (عليه السلام) that he called him as if he has some infertility problem which you see in above hadith is not addressing rather saying Umm-e-Kalthom (عليه السلام) was young. Finally, that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would never resist to save an innocent which he thought and was afraid of Hazrat Umer more than Allah (عزّ وجلّ). 

If this hadith is sahih according to Mr. Nader, then perhaps their beliefs are questioned.

All other hadith are fake on the account that Umm-e-Kalthom that married Hazrat Umer died in his life after death of their son, while these hadith are saying something else. Read History for citation.

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4 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

End it man. You are making discussion lengthy for no reason.

Because the textual and historical reports do not support your analysis in any way, and falls flat in the face of Shia and Sunni scholars who all believed Umm Kulthum daughter of Imam Ali married Umar. Even Khu'i himself acknowledges that the hadith and historical reports lend credence to Umm Kulthum bint Ali:

هكذا ورد في التاريخ والروايات

http://www.al-khoei.us/fatawa2/?id=9

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There is no point in quoting views of a person which he himself corrected later.

Hence why I gave you another argument which is accepted by numerous scholars and that is the  مستثنيات ابن الوليد من نوادر الحكمة as Khoui himself quotes from Wahid Behbahani:

 فقد قال الوحيد- قدس سره-: «روى عنه محمد بن أحمد بن يحيى، و لم تستثن روايته من رجاله، و فيه دليل على ارتضائه و حسن حاله، بل مشعر إلى وثاقته

Secondly, there is a huge difference between someone's trustworthiness being unknown, and someone being outright dha'eef. At the very most, this narrator is definitely not "dhaeef", he is simply unknown, and in historical research a report from such a person is still very valuable especially when it corroborates with pretty much every other hadith and historical report on the issue!

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If this hadith was Sahih, there must have been mention of Ali (عليه السلام) bringing Umme kulthum along with her son to his house. But there is no such thing.

Why on earth would a narration mention the son when it has nothing to do with him? That's like me saying, "there must also be mention of Ali bringing Umm Kulthum with all her clothes, and jewelry and shoes and sandals....".

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On top of that, the author of article Reviving Al-Islam didn't authenticate this narration either. Its just you who's fighting for it.

Who cares about the author of Reviving al-Islam, I am simply pointing out the flaws in your response.

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If those narrations refer to Umme Kulthum Bint Ali, then in spite of their authentic chains, you won't be able to defend their matn.

The matn does not contradict anything except your theology that was developed between 2nd and 4th century.

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On 11/27/2020 at 2:24 AM, Guest Hunter said:

Because the textual and historical reports do not support your analysis in any way

Because they contradict other Sahih hadiths and Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) told us to throw away what is inline with Sunnis in case of contradiction

 

On 11/27/2020 at 2:24 AM, Guest Hunter said:

Who cares about the author of Reviving al-Islam, I am simply pointing out the flaws in your response.

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My response is based upon their arguments. Reason i mentioned the topic and Author in the title!

On 11/27/2020 at 2:24 AM, Guest Hunter said:

The matn does not contradict anything except your theology that was developed between 2nd and 4th century.

I already responded to that.

Imams (عليه السلام) didn't add anything new to deen in 1st century. 

Nikah with Nawasib is haram and Nikah of shia women with any non shia Muslim person is haram as well and i gave Sahih Al Sanad hadiths.

And this haram was established before Al Quran 5:3

Because Deen was completed and Imams (عليه السلام) didn't add anything new rather conveyed the rulings of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

It was haram for Mola Ali (عليه السلام) to marry her daughter to a Nasibi. (Who hated Ahlul bait, usurped their rights, Fatimah (عليه السلام) died angry with him etc)

You already admitted that there is contradiction and in case of contradiction, Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) says to follow what opposes the Sunnis since in it would be guidance.

You are doing nothing but mis guiding people by quoting Contradictory hadiths and opinions of Scholars who have erred in this matter.

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