The Problems with Satan and God’s 'Misguidance'

[khamosh21]

I have a ton of problems with satan and with God’s willingness to misguide people and sincerely hoping someone can correct my understanding. This is one of the reasons I have lost faith in Islam and God.

It is reported that satan worshipped God for thousands of years. He attained a very close position to God where he was ranked among the angels. Eventually his downfall came to due to arrogance and pride when asked to bow to Hazrat Adam. So few questions about this:

1. For someone that has worshipped God for thousands of years and attained such nearness, how did satan manage to do this with pride and arrogance in his heart? One would think that you would need to be become jinn-e-kamil (like insan kamil) to attain such a high position with God. If getting so near to God doesn't guarantee guidance and salvation, than what does?

a. If the answer is that initially he didn’t have this pride in him, it came out when he was asked to bow down to Adam, does this mean than that thousands of years of worship and nearness to God STILL didn’t manage to purify satan?

2. Why has God allowed him to misguide us. All the time we hear this world is a test, it is like giving an exam. Using the same analogy, imagine a school where apart from the teacher teaching the students, there is another invisible teacher going around purposely misguiding people… how is this fair? Would anyone in their right mind consider going to such a school?

3. It is said that God misguides those that want to be misguided… why? Why does God go out of His way, use satan, to misguide people that want it? Wouldn’t it be better to leave misguided people as they are rather than adding to their misguidance?

4. Just how weak was Hazrat Adam that he so easily got fooled by satan? I mean he’s supposed to be a PROPHET of God, what the heck happened there? Even if we offer intepretions and say that he didn’t commit a mistake or a sin, the fact remains that satan was able to misguide him.  

5. How does satan fit into the purpose of creating mankind?

[eThErEaL]

On 11/16/2020 at 7:59 AM, khamosh21 said:

I have a ton of problems with satan and with God’s willingness to misguide people and sincerely hoping someone can correct my understanding. This is one of the reasons I have lost faith in Islam and God.

It is reported that satan worshipped God for thousands of years. He attained a very close position to God where he was ranked among the angels. Eventually his downfall came to due to arrogance and pride when asked to bow to Hazrat Adam. So few questions about this:

1. For someone that has worshipped God for thousands of years and attained such nearness, how did satan manage to do this with pride and arrogance in his heart? One would think that you would need to be become jinn-e-kamil (like insan kamil) to attain such a high position with God. If getting so near to God doesn't guarantee guidance and salvation, than what does?

this is precisely something that should keep us vigilantly aware of our intentions at all times.  No matter how “successful” you may think you are as a worshipper, what matters is Your intention , and this intention has to be purified constantly.  

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a. If the answer is that initially he didn’t have this pride in him, it came out when he was asked to bow down to Adam, does this mean than that thousands of years of worship and nearness to God STILL didn’t manage to purify satan?

the thousands of years of worship helped him to become who he was, namely, Satan.  Now he is able to misguide people better than anyone because he has been there and done that.  So he knows the psyche of people in and out.  Yes, he was probably a better worshipper than most of the people will or can ever be, but he kind of needed to that so he can easily misguide people.  

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2. Why has God allowed him to misguide us. All the time we hear this world is a test, it is like giving an exam. Using the same analogy, imagine a school where apart from the teacher teaching the students, there is another invisible teacher going around purposely misguiding people… how is this fair? Would anyone in their right mind consider going to such a school?

but Satan isn’t the Biggest hurdle.  Satan is more of an outside influence like a friend or classmate that is constantly distracting you in the classroom.  The biggest hurdle is your self (nafs) in how much it inclined towards the distractions.  

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3. It is said that God misguides those that want to be misguided… why? Why does God go out of His way, use satan, to misguide people that want it? Wouldn’t it be better to leave misguided people as they are rather than adding to their misguidance?

How would people who want to be misguided become misguided?  They need Satan like how people who want to be guided need Prophets.  At the end of the day misguidance is also part of God’s function.  As much as Muslims hate to admit that but EVERYTHING happens through God and everything is a sign of God.  Either it is a manifestation of God’s majesty or His beauty.  But everything is a manifestation of God.  

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4. Just how weak was Hazrat Adam that he so easily got fooled by satan? I mean he’s supposed to be a PROPHET of God, what the heck happened there? Even if we offer intepretions and say that he didn’t commit a mistake or a sin, the fact remains that satan was able to misguide him.  

he was weak.  And we are even weaker.  But what makes him special for us is that he serves as an example.  That he is able to realize his weakness and turn to God.  This is why he is greater than Satan for Satan cannot do that.

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5. How does satan fit into the purpose of creating mankind?

This world is made of opposites.  Night and day, up and down, heaven and hell, prophets and satans..  etc etc.

book of the right hand vs book of the left hand.  Good deeds and bad deeds.

etc etc.

it kind of makes sense why you need a Satan figure if you have a Prophet figure.  

[Randle McMurphy]

29 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I have a ton of problems with satan and with God’s willingness to misguide people and sincerely hoping someone can correct my understanding. This is one of the reasons I have lost faith in Islam and God.

It is reported that satan worshipped God for thousands of years. He attained a very close position to God where he was ranked among the angels. Eventually his downfall came to due to arrogance and pride when asked to bow to Hazrat Adam. So few questions about this:

1. For someone that has worshipped God for thousands of years and attained such nearness, how did satan manage to do this with pride and arrogance in his heart? One would think that you would need to be become jinn-e-kamil (like insan kamil) to attain such a high position with God. If getting so near to God doesn't guarantee guidance and salvation, than what does?

a. If the answer is that initially he didn’t have this pride in him, it came out when he was asked to bow down to Adam, does this mean than that thousands of years of worship and nearness to God STILL didn’t manage to purify satan?

2. Why has God allowed him to misguide us. All the time we hear this world is a test, it is like giving an exam. Using the same analogy, imagine a school where apart from the teacher teaching the students, there is another invisible teacher going around purposely misguiding people… how is this fair? Would anyone in their right mind consider going to such a school?

3. It is said that God misguides those that want to be misguided… why? Why does God go out of His way, use satan, to misguide people that want it? Wouldn’t it be better to leave misguided people as they are rather than adding to their misguidance?

4. Just how weak was Hazrat Adam that he so easily got fooled by satan? I mean he’s supposed to be a PROPHET of God, what the heck happened there? Even if we offer intepretions and say that he didn’t commit a mistake or a sin, the fact remains that satan was able to misguide him.  

5. How does satan fit into the purpose of creating mankind?

 

 

 

There are two separate things in your post. The problem you have with God and Satan is a well known quandary in philosophy and monotheistic religions including Islam.

It's known as "The Problem of Evil" 

You can read more about it here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

The second part of you post talks about the fall if Iblis. 

The fact that Iblis was so religious, yet was arrogant enough to go against God is a reminder to us all that no matter how pious any of us are, were not infallible, and need to be vigilant and realise that all of us can be wrong in our beliefs.

[khamosh21]

On 11/16/2020 at 8:20 AM, eThErEaL said:

the thousands of years of worship helped him to become who he was, namely, Satan.  Now he is able to misguide people better than anyone because he has been there and done that.  So he knows the psyche of people in and out.  Yes, he was probably a better worshipper than most of the people will or can ever be, but he kind of needed to that so he can easily misguide people.  

How would people who want to be misguided become misguided?  They need Satan like how people who want to be guided need Prophets.  At the end of the day misguidance is also part of God’s function.  As much as Muslims hate to admit that but EVERYTHING happens through God and everything is a sign of God.  Either it is a manifestation of God’s majesty or His beauty.  But everything is a manifestation of God.  

This world is made of opposites.  Night and day, up and down, heaven and hell, prophets and satans..  etc etc.

book of the right hand vs book of the left hand.  Good deeds and bad deeds.

etc etc.

it kind of makes sense why you need a Satan figure if you have a Prophet figure.  

1. From your reply it sounds like God was preparing him for this role and satan is only doing what God wants him to do... than why punish him and send him to hell?

2. If misguidance is a part of God's function, than He very easily could have assigned an angel to do this for Him, I don't see why satan is needed as an extra?

3. Why is misguidance a part of God's function? to help you understand my thinking, to me misguiding someone is a form of evil, and it is the equivalent of saying that God is evil. Or another way of seeing it is injustice - i see misguidance in opposition to justice.

4. I always understood night to be absence of light, evil to be absence of good... ignorance as absence of knowledge. But misguidance is doesn't at all appear to be absence of guidance, but an attribute of God? How is this not a contradiction? We need a Prophet figure to guide us, there is absolutely no need for satan... I mean if God is as loving as they say He is, apparently infinitely more loving than our mothers, He seems also quite cruel to purposely misguide people as well.

On 11/16/2020 at 8:20 AM, eThErEaL said:

but Satan isn’t the Biggest hurdle.  Satan is more of an outside influence like a friend or classmate that is constantly distracting you in the classroom.  The biggest hurdle is your self (nafs) in how much it inclined towards the distractions.  

5. if our own nafs is the biggest hurdle, why is there any need for a satan? isn't that hurdle on it's own enough to deal with? isn't our nafs capable of misguiding us on it's own? your reply here is contradictory.

6. Why not kick this classmate out of school? I kinda hate this analogy.

[Zainuu]

4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

1. For someone that has worshipped God for thousands of years and attained such nearness, how did satan manage to do this with pride and arrogance in his heart? One would think that you would need to be become jinn-e-kamil (like insan kamil) to attain such a high position with God. If getting so near to God doesn't guarantee guidance and salvation, than what does?

Salam Brother, 

Satan's worship was not because of pride but because of show off. He never had a true intent of worshipping but rather did so in order to potray that he is good. Pride was an effect of it. If you worship Allah and your intentions are not pure, pride and arrogance will definitely fill up your mind. This is what haplened with Satan. So, his prayers never brought him closer to Allah but had the opposite effect. They made him proud and took him far away from Allah. If you will pray to Allah with a true and pure intent, Allah will accept it and you will get closer to him. Even if you don't possess anything except intent, rest will come with time. 

4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

a. If the answer is that initially he didn’t have this pride in him, it came out when he was asked to bow down to Adam, does this mean than that thousands of years of worship and nearness to God STILL didn’t manage to purify satan?

Your assumption behind this question is wrong. That thousands of years of worship, gave him pride instead of closeness to Allah.

4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

2. Why has God allowed him to misguide us. All the time we hear this world is a test, it is like giving an exam. Using the same analogy, imagine a school where apart from the teacher teaching the students, there is another invisible teacher going around purposely misguiding people… how is this fair? Would anyone in their right mind consider going to such a school?

Satan was exposed and it was revealed that he is full of pride and is jealous of human beings. But still he worshipped Allah for thousands of years though the intent was not pure, so Allah gave him life until judgement day as a reward for this. As Allah never let's the acts of anyone go in vain. Fairness is their because if at one place Allah gave Satan this power, on the other hand, Allah also also gave his full support to humans : "Call me, I will answer you". Allah bestowed humans with the blessing of Maghferat so that how many sin SC and mistakes we might commit if we ask forgiveness with true intent and realisation, Allah will forgive us while for Satan, the final abode is nothing but hell. Allah gives us ten times (and even more) for a single good act we do while our it doesn't happens for sins. And after all this, Allah is just. When Allah did justice with Satan, who is the open enemy of his creation and is full of evil then why will he punish us without a reason? Allah will never leave a single reason with us against his judgement because is just.

4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

3. It is said that God misguides those that want to be misguided… why? Why does God go out of His way, use satan, to misguide people that want it? Wouldn’t it be better to leave misguided people as they are rather than adding to their misguidance?

This is a good question. God is a guide and doesn't misguide anyone. But it depends on actions. Our actions show our orientation. If we want to follow truth and don't want to commit any vices or sins and our acts depict innocence, Allah will present us the path of guidance (I mean eventually that person will see the path of guidance through his actions) but if it is just the opposite then Allah will not guide such a person because he himself is taking steps to go away from Allah's guidance. If someone goes away from guidance of Allah then he will become an easy prey of Satan and get misguided. 
For example, you want to go to destiny X and their are plenty of roads connected in a sofisticated fashion. Now, you have a true intent of reaching your destiny and won't give up this at amy cost. So, how much you may wander, how much time you might take, you will reach your destiny (X) finally. But if you started the same journey and got distracted and never intended or attempted to get back on your route and eventually changed your aim youself, you will never reach your really destiny (X). So, is the journey of world and hereafter. 

4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

4. Just how weak was Hazrat Adam that he so easily got fooled by satan? I mean he’s supposed to be a PROPHET of God, what the heck happened there? Even if we offer intepretions and say that he didn’t commit a mistake or a sin, the fact remains that satan was able to misguide him.

Yes, that actually happened as a resemblence of what Satan can do. As well as this that Humans need to stay careful because when a Prophet, already standing in Jannah, informed by Allah, got distracted by Satan, it would be difficult for every human. You can compare it with a trailer or teaser of a movie. It was an incident that happened in order to warn mankind about Satan and not only that but the love of this world (resembled by the tree) and the heart of human being (which has desires). So, it was a teaser or a trailer of a movie known as life.
 

 

4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

5. How does satan fit into the purpose of creating mankind?

Our purpose is ibadat (servitude) of Allah. Satan is here to distract us from this purpose. Servitude basically means doing what your master has commanded you to do. Satan broke this servitude (purpose) when he was commanded to bow in front of Adam (عليه السلام). So, whoever breaks his servitude from mankind enters the party of Satan and whoever (by any means) maintain this servitude will stay in the party of Allah. If Satan is removed from this situation, their will be only one party and it would be certain that everyone would remain in it, whether someone is more inclined towards world or not. So, their won't be any use of judgement. Whatever you may do, you are going to Jannah. So, what about those who love Allah more than you? What about the ones who deserve more than you? What about the ones who love this world? 

May Allah be your guide and may Allah bless you. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Zainuu

[Shahrukh K]

4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

It is reported that satan worshipped God for thousands of years.

Where it is reported, i am quite sure not in Quran.

4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

For someone that has worshipped God for thousands of years and attained such nearness, how did satan manage to do this with pride and arrogance in his heart?

Please understand the difference between satan and iblis. They are not same.

Again...... who says satan worshipped God for thousands of years ?

4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

All the time we hear this world is a test, it is like giving an exam.

The world is a test.  But the the test in not like exam.

4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

It is said that God misguides those that want to be misguided… why? Why does God go out of His way, use satan, to misguide people that want it? Wouldn’t it be better to leave misguided people as they are rather than adding to their misguidance?

4. Just how weak was Hazrat Adam that he so easily got fooled by satan? I mean he’s supposed to be a PROPHET of God, what the heck happened there? Even if we offer intepretions and say that he didn’t commit a mistake or a sin, the fact remains that satan was able to misguide him.  

5. How does satan fit into the purpose of creating mankind?

You do not know what is satan. So it is very difficult for you to understand the answers of all the questions you asked.

[khamosh21]

39 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Satan's worship was not because of pride but because of show off. He never had a true intent of worshipping but rather did so in order to potray that he is good. Pride was an effect of it. If you worship Allah and your intentions are not pure, pride and arrogance will definitely fill up your mind. This is what haplened with Satan. So, his prayers never brought him closer to Allah but had the opposite effect. They made him proud and took him far away from Allah. If you will pray to Allah with a true and pure intent, Allah will accept it and you will get closer to him. Even if you don't possess anything except intent, rest will come with time. 

 

Was satan's worship to Allah sincere or not sincere?

If satan's worship was because of pride and showoff, it means that he lacked sincerity... you say it never brought him closer to Allah, however he was among the angels in heavens due to this very same insincere worship...   how did someone who wasn't sincere gain such proximity with Allah? We are always told Allah will not accept actions that are not done for His sake, but later on you go on to say God rewarded him for these very same insincere actions?

 

39 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Your assumption behind this question is wrong. That thousands of years of worship, gave him pride instead of closeness to Allah.

God promises to guide one who worships Him, and it appears satan was right up there with the angels and God - isn't it strange and somewhat contradictory that his pride stayed with him despite worship and nearness to God in the heavens?

39 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

Satan was exposed and it was revealed that he is full of pride and is jealous of human beings. But still he worshipped Allah for thousands of years though the intent was not pure, so Allah gave him life until judgement day as a reward for this. As Allah never let's the acts of anyone go in vain. Fairness is their because if at one place Allah gave Satan this power, on the other hand, Allah also also gave his full support to humans : "Call me, I will answer you". Allah bestowed humans with the blessing of Maghferat so that how many sin SC and mistakes we might commit if we ask forgiveness with true intent and realisation, Allah will forgive us while for Satan, the final abode is nothing but hell. Allah gives us ten times (and even more) for a single good act we do while our it doesn't happens for sins. And after all this, Allah is just. When Allah did justice with Satan, who is the open enemy of his creation and is full of evil then why will he punish us without a reason? Allah will never leave a single reason with us against his judgement because is just.

So satan's reward for his insincere worship to God is the ability to potentially misguide humanity. His REWARD = misguidance of an entire species. How is this a just reward for his actions? What kind of love is this toward human beings from Allah? Could not have just as easily told satan, "no i'm not granting you this request, leave humans alone, ask for something else?" ????

Do you not see how incredibly unfair and twisted that is.

Everything you have said, maghferat, good deeds, etc, I will define it under one word here, and this is Allah's "support". Now tell me this, is"support" a result of satan's misguidance, or would this support remain regardless of satan's existence? If this support is ONLY as a result of satan's existence, than the best form of support would be to at the very least not make shaitan invisible to us... this support isn't helpful if satan is able to fool so many of us....

and If this support would have been there anyway, regardless of satan's existence, than satan's actions and God's support for us are mutually exclusive topics, and not a valid response to the question why God allows satan to misguide us.

Will leave your other replies for now.

Edited November 16, 2020 by khamosh21

[khamosh21]

8 minutes ago, Shahrukh K said:

Where it is reported, i am quite sure not in Quran.

This is what we are taught by the scholars. I mean why was iblees up there in the heavens and where did he come from? Quran doesn't give any back story to iblees.

 

9 minutes ago, Shahrukh K said:

Please understand the difference between satan and iblis. They are not same.

Again...... who says satan worshipped God for thousands of years ?

I understand, shaitan is anything which takes you away from God, and ibless is one particular jinn that disobeyed God as described in the Quran. Is this what you mean?

10 minutes ago, Shahrukh K said:

You do not know what is satan. So it is very difficult for you to understand the answers of all the questions you asked.

hmm ok, so tell me than what is satan and what is iblees so that I may understand these events described in the Holy Quran.

[Cool]

On 11/16/2020 at 7:59 AM, khamosh21 said:

He attained a very close position to God where he was ranked among the angels. Eventually his downfall came to due to arrogance and pride when asked to bow to Hazrat Adam

Please take a note here:

وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلاَئِكَةِ اسْجُدُواْ لآدَمَ فَسَجَدُواْ إِلاَّ إِبْلِيسَ أَبَى وَاسْتَكْبَرَ وَكَانَ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ

2:34

"Wa kana min al-kafireen" means "and he was one of the unbelievers."

Now with this translation in mind, you need to restructure your whole argument.

[khamosh21]

3 minutes ago, Cool said:

Please take a note here:

وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلاَئِكَةِ اسْجُدُواْ لآدَمَ فَسَجَدُواْ إِلاَّ إِبْلِيسَ أَبَى وَاسْتَكْبَرَ وَكَانَ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ

2:34

"Wa kana min al-kafireen" means "and he was one of the unbelievers."

Now with this translation in mind, you need to restructure your whole argument.

 

So He was of those that covered the truth... just read the first part of my reply to Zainuu... what was he doing up in the heavens getting direct interaction with God and angels if he was of the unbelievers? this makes even less sense than before.

[Cool]

1 minute ago, khamosh21 said:

this makes even less sense than before.

His disbelief was hidden at that time from angels, but not hidden from God. His refusal to do sajdah before Adam was not a surprise for God, he was a kafir in God's knowledge. 

52 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

however he was among the angels in heavens due to this very same insincere worship...   how did someone who wasn't sincere gain such proximity with Allah?

His proximity was not with Allah. Iblis was a kafir in His knowledge but as God says:

أَحَسِبَ النَّاسُ أَنْ يُتْرَكُوا أَنْ يَقُولُوا آمَنَّا وَهُمْ لَا يُفْتَنُونَ

وَلَقَدْ فَتَنَّا الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِهِمْ ۖ فَلَيَعْلَمَنَّ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ صَدَقُوا وَلَيَعْلَمَنَّ الْكَاذِبِينَ

29:2-3

Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, We believe, and not be tried? And certainly We tried those before them, so Allah will certainly know those who are true and He will certainly know the liars.

Iblis was proved kazib (liar) when he was tried by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

[Zainuu]

52 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Was satan's worship to Allah sincere or not sincere?

If satan's worship was because of pride and showoff, it means that he lacked sincerity... you say it never brought him closer to Allah, however he was among the angels in heavens due to this very same insincere worship...   how did someone who wasn't sincere gain such proximity with Allah? We are always told Allah will not accept actions that are not done for His sake, but later on you go on to say God rewarded him for these very same insincere actions?

Satan was not an angel. Surah al Kahf verse number 50. Being with the angels is not proximity, proximity is not measured physically but spiritually. Did he had the maarefat (understanding) of Allah? No. This is the meaning of proximity. So,  what was he rewarded? When you will pray sincerely, you will go to Jannah forever. But, like Satan, if you pray for show off, Allah will reward you but very little ypu will gain. Did Satan go to Jannah even after praying thousands of years? His ultimate abode is hell because of his intentions. What he gained is very less in comparison to what he lost. 

1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

So satan's reward for his insincere worship to God is the ability to potentially misguide humanity. His REWARD = misguidance of an entire species. How is this a just reward for his actions? What kind of love is this toward human beings from Allah? Could not have just as easily told satan, "no i'm not granting you this request, leave humans alone, ask for something else?" ????

See from Satan's vision, what did he gain? His final abode is hell, he is the most hated. He just gained an ability to distract humans a little. And that too very little. Try and search for the meaning of vasvasa in arabic. It's a very small thing. So, basically, Satan can't do a damn if we stay firm. No, it could not have happened that his request could be refused. Because although not sincere, but still he prayed. Thousands of years is not a small thing man. And Allah is just. Had it not been the case you would have doubted the justice of Allah then also. And justice many times goes against our will, we might feel bad but reality is reality. 

 

1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

Now tell me this, is"support" a result of satan's misguidance, or would this support remain regardless of satan's existence? If this support is ONLY as a result of satan's existence, than the best form of support would be to at the very least not make shaitan invisible to us... this support isn't helpful if satan is able to fool so many of us....

The support provided by Allah to the mankind is huge and ypu cannot belittle it at the first place. Secondly, Allah is merciful, irrespective of anything, Satan's existence doesn't change the matter. Allah has given us enough to make an effort and stay firm on truth and not get misguided. So, Allah's mercy comes first and Satan's role comes afterwards. Now, why is their then? I have answered this before in your fifth question:

1 hour ago, Zainuu said:

6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

5. How does satan fit into the purpose of creating mankind?

Our purpose is ibadat (servitude) of Allah. Satan is here to distract us from this purpose. Servitude basically means doing what your master has commanded you to do. Satan broke this servitude (purpose) when he was commanded to bow in front of Adam (عليه السلام). So, whoever breaks his servitude from mankind enters the party of Satan and whoever (by any means) maintain this servitude will stay in the party of Allah. If Satan is removed from this situation, their will be only one party and it would be certain that everyone would remain in it, whether someone is more inclined towards world or not. So, their won't be any use of judgement. Whatever you may do, you are going to Jannah. So, what about those who love Allah more than you? What about the ones who deserve more than you? What about the ones who love this world? 

 

This logic of satan's existence is natural. 'Every action has an equal and opposite reaction'. 

The Universe cannot exist if you remove this law from the laws of motion. The conservation of energy is a similar example. So, this is something fundamental that the existence of Human beings with the support of Allah needed an equal and opposite factor and that is Satan with all it's power. 

[khamosh21]

1 hour ago, Zainuu said:

Satan was not an angel. Surah al Kahf verse number 50. Being with the angels is not proximity, proximity is not measured physically but spiritually. Did he had the maarefat (understanding) of Allah? No. This is the meaning of proximity. So,  what was he rewarded? When you will pray sincerely, you will go to Jannah forever. But, like Satan, if you pray for show off, Allah will reward you but very little ypu will gain. Did Satan go to Jannah even after praying thousands of years? His ultimate abode is hell because of his intentions. What he gained is very less in comparison to what he lost. 

See from Satan's vision, what did he gain? His final abode is hell, he is the most hated. He just gained an ability to distract humans a little. And that too very little. Try and search for the meaning of vasvasa in arabic. It's a very small thing. So, basically, Satan can't do a damn if we stay firm. No, it could not have happened that his request could be refused. Because although not sincere, but still he prayed. Thousands of years is not a small thing man. And Allah is just. Had it not been the case you would have doubted the justice of Allah then also. And justice many times goes against our will, we might feel bad but reality is reality. 

 

The support provided by Allah to the mankind is huge and ypu cannot belittle it at the first place. Secondly, Allah is merciful, irrespective of anything, Satan's existence doesn't change the matter. Allah has given us enough to make an effort and stay firm on truth and not get misguided. So, Allah's mercy comes first and Satan's role comes afterwards. Now, why is their then? I have answered this before in your fifth question:

 

This logic of satan's existence is natural. 'Every action has an equal and opposite reaction'. 

The Universe cannot exist if you remove this law from the laws of motion. The conservation of energy is a similar example. So, this is something fundamental that the existence of Human beings with the support of Allah needed an equal and opposite factor and that is Satan with all it's power. 

with all due respect, i don't agree with the above reasoning... it doesn't satiate my doubts, i am happy that it makes sense to you and your worldview... thank you for your replies and contribution.

Edited November 16, 2020 by khamosh21

[Shahrukh K]

On 11/17/2020 at 12:24 AM, khamosh21 said:

so tell me than what is satan

Satan is just another name for Allah’s power of manifestation, His power of form-projection. It is Allah’s Power of manifestation, which remains eternally with Him, whether there is a manifestation or not; and it is also the actual world of forms which results from that power.
In reality you were never born and never shall die. But now you imagine that you are, or have a body and you ask what has brought about this state.
Why this suffering ?
Why this test ?
Why Allah created me ?
Within the limits of illusion the answer is: satan (desire) attracts you to a body and makes you think as one with it. But this is true only from the relative point of view. In fact, there is no body, nor a world to contain it; there is only a mental condition, a dream-like state, easy to dispel by questioning its reality.
The whole world is under the delusion of Satan; for this Satan of Allah is very difficult to penetrate. Only those who take refuge in Allah go beyond it. 

Why Allah let satan do it ?
That is another discussion. 

[Muhammed Ali]

If Satan didn't exist, he would be a great invention.

 

I really sympathize with how frustrated you may become with some of the poor answers that you get on this forum, but then when I read some of your arguments, I think they are as bad as the ones that try to counter yours.

Most theists, atheists and agnostics are simply not good at reasoning in these subject areas. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Muhammed Ali

[khamosh21]

45 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

If Satan didn't exist, he would be a great invention.

 

I really sympathize with how frustrated you may become with some of the poor answers that you get on this forum, but then when I read some of your arguments, I think they are as bad as the ones that try to counter yours.

 

the "poor answers" are things that our "scholars" have told people or the same exist in the books.

why don't you refer me to a good book, article, or lecture which explains satan's existence and his story.

49 minutes ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Most theists, atheists and agnostics are simply not good at reasoning in these subject areas. 

so everyone except a few people including yourself are good at reasoning, got it.

[khamosh21]

2 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

Why Allah let satan do it ?

That is another discussion. 

Let's have this discussion... this is main question of the thread.

[Muhammed Ali]

5 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

 

the "poor answers" are things that our "scholars" have told people or the same exist in the books.

why don't you refer me to a good book, article, or lecture which explains satan's existence and his story.

so everyone except a few people including yourself are good at reasoning, got it.

The poor answers are what people invent. Most people haven't really studied these subjects. They just see some objections on a forum and decide to answer without really having the requisite knowledge. If you posted a few good articles on philosophy, how many people would be willing to read and understand them? But if those articles were dumbed down or filled with exotic sounding Arabic or mystical terms then a lot more would read and 'like' them. You will notice it if you observe the posts over the years.

We do have a problem with humanity when Ayatullah Mutahhari says:

Quote

I have not, as of yet, found any philosophical treatise, article, or even chapter, that deals directly with “Divine Justice” and treats the subject in a philosophical manner.

https://www.al-islam.org/divine-justice-murtadha-mutahhari/introduction

A religion so old and with so many scholars and you can hardly find any good material on the problem of evil? It's a sad state. But Ayatullah Mutahhari's book is excellent.  It's not that we don't have great thinkers but they are few in number and their abilities are not transferred to the lesser clerics.

The problem here is a real inability to reason properly in this area. What we need is a few thinkers who would create curricula to teach people from a young age just like they do with all other subjects that people learn in school.

I can't recommend any book but there is information in disparate sources. But it's not really about having information, it's about having a mind that can think with clarity.

This lecture deals with some of the questions that you asked but not all. You have to be able to fill in the gaps and link differing sources of information together: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJDFjBdySnM Also read chapter 2 of Jordan Peterson's book, Al-Mizan has some good information on this subject and also read the book by Shaheed Mutahhari posted above.

Here is an example of a Muslim speaker who is supposedly good at these subjects doing a very bad job answering an objection made by an atheist. And then he posts it on his Youtube channel thinking that he did well! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNgCMoyUc0s

I will PM you.

[Zainuu]

On 11/17/2020 at 3:03 AM, khamosh21 said:

with all due respect, i don't agree with the above reasoning... it doesn't satiate my doubts,

What do you disagree with in my answer? If you have questions feel free to ask.

If I know it, I'll answer it.

If I don't know it, I'll do some reasearch to answer it. 

[Muhammed Ali]

4 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

A religion so old and with so many scholars and you can hardly find any good material on the problem of evil? It's a sad state. But Ayatullah Mutahhari's book is excellent.  It's not that we don't have great thinkers but they are few in number and their abilities are not transferred to the lesser clerics.

The problem here is a real inability to reason properly in this area. What we need is a few thinkers who would create curricula to teach people from a young age just like they do with all other subjects that people learn in school.

I must clarify that my criticisms of some learned people in these particular subject areas does not mean that I do not recognise their great achievements in other areas. And I can say the same for the achievements of laypersons. Everyone has their own strengths. E.g.  Stephen Hawking was a great a physicist but a poor philosopher.

If we meet Shia who don't know some of the things that we might imagine that we know, we have to respect them because they could be much better people than we are. And in my case they are very likely to be better humans than me in many areas.

[Shahrukh K]

I do not claim to know what you do not. In fact, I know much less than you do or other members of shiachat because my knowledge is solely based upon my understanding of Quran.

22 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

On 11/20/2020 at 9:11 PM, Shahrukh K said:

Why Allah let satan do it ?

That is another discussion. 

Let's have this discussion... this is main question of the thread.

I am unable to answer this question. 

All i know is that Allah is the absolute Consciousness, the eternal Mind, which prophets/imams/mystics throughout history have experienced as the transcendent Source of all creation. It is said by those who have known It to be pure Consciousness, Bliss, unmoving, unchanging, unqualified, beyond all form and beyond all activity. 
Why then, the rational intellect questions, such a quiescent Emptiness create a universe of myriad forms? The difficulty of explaining this satisfactorily is readily acknowledged even by those who have experienced It directly. 

I am just waiting (witnessing) when i will be free from this illusion of having a body. 
I only pray, hoping that this will happen so that i will be free of all my desires and fears, before my death.
Otherwise i will be resurrected back into this hell.  
 

[eThErEaL]

On 11/16/2020 at 11:29 AM, khamosh21 said:

1. From your reply it sounds like God was preparing him for this role and satan is only doing what God wants him to do... than why punish him and send him to hell?

When one plans to not conform to God then they basically make a plot against themselves.  Because God says:  "They plot, and God plots, but God is the best of plotters."

So, Satan punishes and sends himself to Hell.  And at the end of it all, it ends up being in conformity to God's Master Plan!  If anything, this is all the more reason why we ought to be vigilantly aware that we conform to God's WIll, because if we do not, we are not going to like how we end up in God's Master Plan!   Temporarily, it may appear that we are having it our way, even though we know it probably wont last!  But n the long run, we are just going to disappoint ourselves.  Does Satan know what he is doing?  Indeed.  He knows the consequence better than anyone on the face of this earth.  But because his knowledge does not conform with his practice (May God protect us from this) it is a pseudo kind of knowing.  A real knowing is something that is concomitant with submission (submission with one's entire being, not only partially).  So although Iblis worshipped God for thousands of years, there was always a part of him that was not in submission.  Rather than sympathize for Satan, by asking, "doesn't he get credit for worshipping all those years", it should make us reflect more carefully on ourselves about what aspects of our being are not in submission to God (because there certainly must be aspects of our being that are not in submission to God).   You can say that Satan does get credit for his 1000's of years of worship, he is allowed respit till the day of Judgement and he gets to misguide anyone he wants (except for the sincere one).  That is the deal he (satan) wanted to settle for!  And that is what he (satan) GOT!.   

 

Quote

2. If misguidance is a part of God's function, than He very easily could have assigned an angel to do this for Him.

Except that angels don't misguide, it is not in their nature to misguide.  It is not in the nature of rain to fall upwards.  It is not in the nature of triangles to be circular.  

Quote

3. Why is misguidance a part of God's function? to help you understand my thinking, to me misguiding someone is a form of evil, and it is the equivalent of saying that God is evil. Or another way of seeing it is injustice - i see misguidance in opposition to justice.

God in His Non-Manifest Being transcends the duality of good vs evil.  Although God in Himself is beyond opposites, His Being (in Manifestation) has to be refracted into opposites (into different colors, grades, and intensities).  This is is what we call "creation!"

The creation is nothing but His manifestation (i.e. a refraction of the Non-Manifest Light of God's Being that is so Intense that it is Blindingly Dark).  Hence the existence of "good" vs "evil".  Hence the possibility of there being proximity to God and remoteness from God.  Hence the possibility of there being Light vs Darkness, Up vs Down, Here vs There, Subject vs Object, A and not-A.  Creation is nothing but opposition.  

     

Quote

4. I always understood night to be absence of light, evil to be absence of good... ignorance as absence of knowledge. But misguidance is doesn't at all appear to be absence of guidance, but an attribute of God? How is this not a contradiction? We need a Prophet figure to guide us, there is absolutely no need for satan... I mean if God is as loving as they say He is, apparently infinitely more loving than our mothers, He seems also quite cruel to purposely misguide people as well.

Yes,  night is the absence of day and darkness is the absence of light.  And if guidance is seen as a light in the heart, then misguidance can be seen as the absence of that light.  don't you think?

Everything is either directly or indirectly an attribute of God.  Even darkness is an attribute of God.  You can say that God's light is so intense that it is blindingly dark.  So this is as far as the Essence is concerned which is beyond opposition (or should I say, it is The Coincidence of Opposites).  This is why God has two categories of Names, the Beautiful (Jamali) Names and the Majestic (Jalali) Names.  Just keep thinking about this and it will all make sense.  I promise.      

 

Quote

5. if our own nafs is the biggest hurdle, why is there any need for a satan? isn't that hurdle on it's own enough to deal with? isn't our nafs capable of misguiding us on it's own? your reply here is contradictory.

A nafs that has lost it, become a satan to others.  Satan is not only of the jinn, there are also satans who are humans.   Iblis LOST IT, and he ended up being a satan!  lol

Quote

6. Why not kick this classmate out of school? I kinda hate this analogy.

He  eventually is kicked out.  the student complains to the teacher, and the teacher scolds him and tells him to get out!  so we have supplications and means of protection from satan.  You mean why does that possibility exist?  Every student is a potential satan (annoying classmate that distracts).  Why does that potential not exist?  That is what you are asking.  Why should it NOT exist?

Edited November 22, 2020 by eThErEaL

[Muhammed Ali]

@khamosh21 Please listen to this video I recorded just for you, to answer the questions that you asked in this thread. I am sorry that it is one hour long and recorded in a distorted voice. Please tell me what you think afterwards. You can take your time if you are busy.

I had more time than I usually do because of the holiday, but if the feedback from other members is positive I can try to post more videos on the forum.

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by Muhammed Ali

[Muhammad A-H]

On 11/17/2020 at 5:10 AM, Zainuu said:

Yes, that actually happened as a resemblence of what Satan can do. As well as this that Humans need to stay careful because when a Prophet, already standing in Jannah, informed by Allah, got distracted by Satan, it would be difficult for every human. You can compare it with a trailer or teaser of a movie. It was an incident that happened in order to warn mankind about Satan and not only that but the love of this world (resembled by the tree) and the heart of human being (which has desires). So, it was a teaser or a trailer of a movie known as life.

All prophets are sinless. Correct me if I am wrong, but at this point Adam was not a Prophet and I do not think his test has started yet. He was not even down on Earth yet. When Allah brought him to Earth, then he was appointed a Prophet.

And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a vicegerent, they said: “Are you going to appoint in it someone who will cause corruption in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Your praise and extol Your holiness?” He said: “Surely I know what you do not know.” [2:30]

Here Allah says he will place inside the Earth a vicegerent. This could imply that Adam was appointed a Prophet once inside the Earth.

[Zainuu]

1 hour ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

All prophets are sinless. Correct me if I am wrong, but at this point Adam was not a Prophet and I do not think his test has started yet. He was not even down on Earth yet. When Allah brought him to Earth, then he was appointed a Prophet.

What about some other prophets, like Prophet Yunus (عليه السلام).

I agree that Prophets are sinless but in order to send Hazrat Adam to the earth, an excuse was needed. Earth is a damned place, heaven is enlightening. In order to send a great prophet to the lowest level of life, they needed to get in touch with what is upcoming. Tree of jannah was the resemblence of this world. When Adam (عليه السلام) reached it, he got in touch with something earthly and differences between earth and jannah became evident (such as shame etc). Then, they were sent to the place which was a larger version of that tree, i.e Earth. That is why it was not even called a sin but a Tark e ula. Touching a tree is not wrong but in disobedience, yes. He was brought their by satan. Hazrat Havva was aimed by Satan. They felt shameful after touching the tree.

Now, connect:

Every human being goes through the above discourse. 

We disobey Allah and fall in sin. 

We obey satan at that time.

If na-mahrams (even mahrams sometimes) get naked in front of each other, they will feel shame. 

So, that was a brief description of how world is.

[layman]

On 11/16/2020 at 9:59 PM, khamosh21 said:

I have a ton of problems with satan and with God’s willingness to misguide people and sincerely hoping someone can correct my understanding. This is one of the reasons I have lost faith in Islam and God.

It is reported that satan worshipped God for thousands of years. He attained a very close position to God where he was ranked among the angels. Eventually his downfall came to due to arrogance and pride when asked to bow to Hazrat Adam. So few questions about this:

1. For someone that has worshipped God for thousands of years and attained such nearness, how did satan manage to do this with pride and arrogance in his heart? One would think that you would need to be become jinn-e-kamil (like insan kamil) to attain such a high position with God. If getting so near to God doesn't guarantee guidance and salvation, than what does?

a. If the answer is that initially he didn’t have this pride in him, it came out when he was asked to bow down to Adam, does this mean than that thousands of years of worship and nearness to God STILL didn’t manage to purify satan?

2. Why has God allowed him to misguide us. All the time we hear this world is a test, it is like giving an exam. Using the same analogy, imagine a school where apart from the teacher teaching the students, there is another invisible teacher going around purposely misguiding people… how is this fair? Would anyone in their right mind consider going to such a school?

3. It is said that God misguides those that want to be misguided… why? Why does God go out of His way, use satan, to misguide people that want it? Wouldn’t it be better to leave misguided people as they are rather than adding to their misguidance?

4. Just how weak was Hazrat Adam that he so easily got fooled by satan? I mean he’s supposed to be a PROPHET of God, what the heck happened there? Even if we offer intepretions and say that he didn’t commit a mistake or a sin, the fact remains that satan was able to misguide him.  

5. How does satan fit into the purpose of creating mankind?

Aauuzibillahi minassyaitani rajiin...

Bismillahi Rahmaani Raheem

This is my understanding of Syaitans.

“And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.” [51:56]
 

"What comes to you of good is from Allah, but what comes to you of evil, [O man], is from yourself. And We have sent you, [O Muhammad], to the people as a messenger, and sufficient is Allah as Witness.”
– Quran 4:79

All Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) creations know that they were created to worship Allahbswt (subservient to the Wills of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)).

If we follow the Directives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will stamp His Names in our souls.

If we disobey the Directives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will stamp Syaitan in we souls.

Syaitans are not created by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), they are not creations like humans or Jinns. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) didn't created hell or heaven for Syaitans...Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created hell and heaven for humans and jinns to be in.

By nature, syaitans are created by souls of humans or jinns that rebelled against Directives of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Humans or jinns can create in their souls two natures...1.  NAMES of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) or 2. Without Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (his own created Names) that are termed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  as Syaitan.

Aĺl syaitans that existed in the past and will be created in the future are created by humans and Jinns.  Remember, all goods from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and all bads created by humans and jinns.

 Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only created His Names for humans and jinns to be put in their souls.  But, instead humans and jinns created alternatives and are called as Syaitans.

Are Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Syaitans alive?  Yes.  Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will live on as along as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) exist.  Syaitans will live on as long as the belief of that humans and jinns live.  As soon as the humans and jinns not longer associated with that rebellious belief then that created Syaitans will die.  In hereafter, all humans and jinns will abandoned their rebellious belief, so there will be no syaitans.  Repentance kills syaitans in the self.

Come to story of Iblis.  He knew that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created humans and jinns to worship Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Iblis has no objection to the directive.  The only corcern Iblis had was he is not comfortable to worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) under leadership of others, in particular Adam (humans). For Iblis, he should lead the humans to worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and not the other way around.  Afterall, Iblis was leading the Angels too for years.

Iblis wanted to show to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that he can lead humans to worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) better than humans (his own way)  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) told Iblis that you cannot install Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Names in human souls.  Iblis said, give me a chance to do it.  Iblis have firmed belief that he could. Permission granted to Iblis to rebel against Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  That created rebellious nature by Iblis is called Shaitan.  Since the Syaitan is created through belief of Iblis, that created Syaitan became alive until before Qiamat started.

These new weak creatures (syaitans), created merely by belief by Iblis.  By permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), syaitans that created by Iblis can penetrate to human heart and souls, except those heart and souls that contain Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Names.

Examples of created Syaitans.

1.  By Iblis....will live on until the day before Qiamat.  Iblis is still alive, very experience and very old.  But his created syaitans are very much alive.  Few generation of leaders of syaitans were tied at Jamarat and we throw stones to them during hajj.

2. By humans..come and go (born and die).  Example...Arab Nationalism, White Supremacy and many more....  These syaitans live as long as there are people believing in these ideologies.  When Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) come, he will finish of these type of syaitans and establish religion that will put Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in the heart of people.  Another biggest and very strong syaitans created just after the wafat of Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) under the roof of Saqifah. These syaitans are causing disunity and killings among muslims.  These syaitans were created by so called companions using the belief that  "Quran is sufficient to us."  These very same words used against the Prophet just when he asked for pen and paper to save the ummah.

Some syaitans are so strong embedded in human souls...that humans behave like syaitans...Yazid, Saddam, Nathanyaho.  Bigger syaitans embedded in a Nation and they call themselves as Superpower.  Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) called the US administration as "Big Satan".  Satans that associated with Communism belief are getting replaced and weakened.

Too long...i stop here.

Therefore, create Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in our souls and seek Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) help to ward off syaitans in our souls. 

Our Prophet and Imams are Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...hold on to them by asking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to make us on the right path. 

Aauuzibillahi minas syaitani rajeem.

 

[theEndIsNear]

On 11/17/2020 at 12:59 AM, khamosh21 said:

I have a ton of problems with satan and with God’s willingness to misguide people and sincerely hoping someone can correct my understanding. This is one of the reasons I have lost faith in Islam and God.

It is reported that satan worshipped God for thousands of years. He attained a very close position to God where he was ranked among the angels. Eventually his downfall came to due to arrogance and pride when asked to bow to Hazrat Adam. So few questions about this:

1. For someone that has worshipped God for thousands of years and attained such nearness, how did satan manage to do this with pride and arrogance in his heart? One would think that you would need to be become jinn-e-kamil (like insan kamil) to attain such a high position with God. If getting so near to God doesn't guarantee guidance and salvation, than what does?

a. If the answer is that initially he didn’t have this pride in him, it came out when he was asked to bow down to Adam, does this mean than that thousands of years of worship and nearness to God STILL didn’t manage to purify satan?

2. Why has God allowed him to misguide us. All the time we hear this world is a test, it is like giving an exam. Using the same analogy, imagine a school where apart from the teacher teaching the students, there is another invisible teacher going around purposely misguiding people… how is this fair? Would anyone in their right mind consider going to such a school?

3. It is said that God misguides those that want to be misguided… why? Why does God go out of His way, use satan, to misguide people that want it? Wouldn’t it be better to leave misguided people as they are rather than adding to their misguidance?

4. Just how weak was Hazrat Adam that he so easily got fooled by satan? I mean he’s supposed to be a PROPHET of God, what the heck happened there? Even if we offer intepretions and say that he didn’t commit a mistake or a sin, the fact remains that satan was able to misguide him.  

5. How does satan fit into the purpose of creating mankind?

Here’s my perspective, if You were to see the mercy of God it would give u confidence that u would never go to hell or nobody would go to hell because His mercy is sooooooo grand that it would forgive even the worst of sins including the sins os shimr and yazeed that’s how unimaginable and infinite His mercy is perceived if it is allowed to be viewed 

if you were to see hell it would give you the confidence that nobody is suitable for it , it’s so horrible that you would never imagine even the worst people including yazeed and shimr would never end up there cause it is so horrible 

iblees seen the peak of both, his arrogance wasn’t towards God but his confidence was in God's mercy that’s what made him make that decision 

another thing if God allowed you to perceive His mercy you too would pray like an angel with full dedication and sincerity and flowing tears , it’s a gift to receive this perception

 

[khamosh21]

14 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

@khamosh21 Please listen to this video I recorded just for you, to answer the questions that you asked in this thread. I am sorry that it is one hour long and recorded in a distorted voice. Please tell me what you think afterwards. You can take your time if you are busy.

I had more time than I usually do because of the holiday, but if the feedback from other members is positive I can try to post more videos on the forum.

 

salaam bro, iA will check it out and back to you, thanks.

[Muhammed Ali]

1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

salaam bro, iA will check it out and back to you, thanks.

Thanks. And if you think what I said was flawed, be brutally honest. I would learn from it, God willing.

[Abu Nur]

9 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Thanks. And if you think what I said was flawed, be brutally honest. I would learn from it, God willing.

Thank you for the informative videos you made. If you have time and motivation, is it possible to make videos about the philosophical good arguments and proof of God existence?

[khamosh21]

14 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Thanks. And if you think what I said was flawed, be brutally honest. I would learn from it, God willing.

So I listened to the whole thing and made notes as well. Thanks for taking the time to personally respond to this thread. I don't have it in me to make a video and record myself, so I'll try my best to respond in writing.

Problem of Evil

So up unto 20 mins into video, towards the end of the problem of evil section… I agree with several of the concepts that you have presented, namely that we are able to appreciate good and hardships do bring about betterment (however I disagree with how religion frames our day to day suffering, more discussion on this to follow).

Yes stories have benefits. Many stories survive generations, but just because a story has benefit, it doesn’t have to be accepted as being fact/true, like you have stated whether we believe in them or not… sure they have benefits, I agree. (For example in Persian literature they have many stories and poetry which has lessons in it, but they are known to be just stories, not sold as facts).

I don’t need the stories to derive the benefits that you have listed. Life experiences and real/provable stories of people around us and in history are enough to understand the concepts you have listed.

To summarize you are saying shaitan, suffering, and evil etc brings about good in the end… it brings about appreciation, superior traits…  but does it really? You say evil is only a problem if it is gratuitous i.e. if it does not have benefit or done with good reason. Well let’s look at the final and end result of many human beings, they will be suffering extreme torture and pain… can you tell me what is benefit of a created thing to have to suffer pain for eternity? I have another thread of hell, how I just don’t see any rational reason for need of eternal pain and suffering. 

I will need to go back and listen to the lecture you sent earlier. Right around the time you sent it, I got extremely busy with some projects, barely used the internet those days.

Your explanation of Adam

It’s a decent explanation, and it would be acceptable if I was able to accept Islam as a whole.

However this is what I see what’s happening:

One of the argument patterns used by believers:

Using multiple contradictory theories to dispute the facts or to prove your point. One theory is used in one place, a contradictory theory is used to prove another point in another place. I will need another thread to go into this more and give examples, so I'll just stop here. We don’t need to go further into Adam’s story.

Satan

You state he was always a kaffir (proof?) . So how was he flying with the angels and so close to God, you don’t really address this. We have some of his history in our books, are you aware of what it says about his history?

Even if we accept his actions are weak, do they not have an impact or influence? My argument remains same even if I accept his actions are weak.

Finally the output that we see among human beings, we fall into temptation and sin, we don’t attain perfection or divine attributes, even if we remove satan from the equation, I don’t see how majority of humanity fits in line with our creation’s purpose?

Other Misc points

Yes exactly God is invented because it brings about goodness in society. I agree with this, the imaginary concepts of God and unseen, are great in keeping people in line, controlling them, and managing society. I don’t have a problem with the laws that Islam asks us to follow, I think they are mostly excellent laws that can help manage a society better. My issue is with all the “unseen” aspects used to increase fear and motivate people to accept/follow the law. It's having opposite effect on me, since I can't believe in the unseen, I have also lost motivation to practice the laws.

Additionally I am not satisfied by the “proofs” given for God’s existence. I don’t accept that God is a philosophical truth. I address some of this here in this post:

 

I wouldn't mind connecting over zoom or some other app if you wish to talk directly (without revealing any personal details about ourselves).

[khamosh21]

To others that have replied recently, sorry I don't have time to respond to all of your posts.

[layman]

22 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

To others that have replied recently, sorry I don't have time to respond to all of your posts.

I still disagree with your concept that  Iblis is syaitan and syaitan is iblis.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is described by His Names.  But His Names is not Him.

Iblis is makluq, just like human and angel. If human has made himself to be arrogant, does not mean human is equal to arrogant.  

When human make himself arrogant, that arrogant start to exist.

Syaitan are created by Iblis's rebellious action.   That syaitan then comes into existence.

Shaitans are many ranks and types (depending on the nature of rebellious).  Iblis is only one type.  Human and angel too, only one type.

If a human likes to make Zina, the Syaitans that he created will also promote other humans to make zina.

[theEndIsNear]

1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

To others that have replied recently, sorry I don't have time to respond to all of your posts.

God’s misguidance isn’t something that happens where a person is experiencing free will and then God throws a curveball and ur a victim made to go the wrong way 

no that’s not what it means, what it means is if u choose evil then God will guide u through the predestined path ie if u do something then it leads to something else , simple example let’s say ur married u commit adultery then u go home and ur wife asks u where u are, now u have to lie ie ur now on the path of misguidance , one sin leads to another 

like how it is said if ur a thief ur also a liar etc , God causes people who commit sin to be stacked with sins , and those who commit good God causes more good to come to them , that’s the preprogrammed paths of life , there isn’t a place u can that God didn’t create ie He is the ultimate controller , u can’t sin without Him u can’t do good without Him you can die without Him you can’t even live without Him , there is mono place u can go or action u can do without His already making that path 

that’s the point of “ He is the one who guides and He is the one who misguided” it’s supposed to point out He controls everything even the paths of evil , not the devil not djinn not some other God only Him and when u go astray the point is that ur still in his control , there isn’t a place u can go where He isn’t running things 

“And with Him are the keys of the unseen treasures — none knows them but He; and He knows what is in the land and the sea, and there falls not a leaf but He knows it, nor a grain in the darkness of the earth, nor anything green nor dry but (it is all) in a clear book.”

its not like ur just an innocent victim with no control that gets misguided cause God is bored that’s not what the verse about God misguiding means , it’s just a declaration of God’s control and knowledge and predestination as well as free will how it’s entwined unto human experience of life 

Edited January 2, 2021 by theEndIsNear

[El Cid]

On 12/31/2020 at 8:50 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

@khamosh21 Please listen to this video I recorded just for you, to answer the questions that you asked in this thread. I am sorry that it is one hour long and recorded in a distorted voice. Please tell me what you think afterwards. You can take your time if you are busy.

I had more time than I usually do because of the holiday, but if the feedback from other members is positive I can try to post more videos on the forum.

 

Salam.

I really enjoyed this video of yours. You have a very articulate manner of speaking and you communicate all your points very well. These factors made me not even think about the distorted voice which sounded like a person in the Witness program was speaking. My suggestion would be to get a free software called OBS-Studio. It's one of the best recording and streaming softwares available right now. Whether I don't use a microphone or I use the microphone of my 5$ mobile hands-free set when I record using this software, my voice sounds clear/perfect every time. Here you go: https://obsproject.com

And you'll also need this as this happens at times when your computer has multiple screens/graphics card. You set one for recording:

You could also invest in a cheap microphone if you like. I use this for my streaming:

https://www.amazon.com/Upgraded-Microphone-LiveStreaming-Recording-Adjustable/dp/B08F74HBX1

It's only 20$. Keep it up. InshAllah you make another video on another interesting topic in the future.

Edited January 2, 2021 by El Cid