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In the Name of God بسم الله

12ver Shiaism | A Minor Sect?


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Just wondering,

What is the reason we don't place 12ver Shiaism as one of the minor sects on this Forum.  It is still a minor sect within Islam given that it doesn't even come close to 20% of the Sunni population.    I am genuinely interested in knowing how Shias cope with this fact (THIS REALITY) and how they end up taking their sect  as a serious contender in the arena of Islamic World.?  

 

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"Sunnism" ultimately isn't one sect either. It is composite of several schools of `aqida (Athari, Ash`ari and Maturidi being the main ones), several schools of fiqh (Hanafi, Shafi`i, Maliki, Hanbali),

Sahih International: And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying. Surah 6 Verse 1

@Zainuu though i have to agree, shia Islam is not a political movement. Iran is just another nation using religion to garner support from its religious population, and its leaders showcase themselves

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To be fair to them, they are the most well known side. Nobody speaks of Sufism, Barelvi, Deobandi, Ahmadiyya, etc. as much as Shi'ism. Everyone knows either Sunni or Shi'a, despite their fringe numbers.

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1 hour ago, Nightclaw said:

To be fair to them, they are the most well known side. Nobody speaks of Sufism, Barelvi, Deobandi, Ahmadiyya, etc. as much as Shi'ism. Everyone knows either Sunni or Shi'a, despite their fringe numbers.

Shias are loud.  I can tell you that. But when it comes to what Shiaism actually is...  it sounds very bizarre to many people.  

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1 hour ago, ShiaofAli12 said:

Sahih International: And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.

Surah 6 Verse 116

I see.  since 12ver Shias are MORE THAN Ismalis this means 12ver Shias are misled?

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11 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

You agree or not but Shias of Ali (عليه السلام) are much more significant then any thought.

In what way? Politically only?  Let us see your examples.

11 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

 

So, it's true we are less in number but we are more significant then what you can ever imagine. 

Politically significant.  That is about it.  

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15 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

However, for muslimeen this generally shouldn't be the case since we are outnumbered by christians anyway.

Muslims are outnumbered by Buddhists and Christians.  But for the one who believes in numbers (like myself), this proves that Christianity and Buddhism cannot be invalid.  I also don’t believe Shiaism to be 100% invalid.  I just don’t understand how they have the audacity of regarding Sunni Islam as invalid.  You get me?

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10 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

You cannot separate religion from politics. They always stay together, agree or not. 

 

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Hey Zainuu,

So you have to be politically active as a Muslim?  So, is it a sin not to vote?  Is it a sin if you don’t aspire to be a political reformist?  

this is precisely the corruption of Shia Islam, namely the politicization of Shiaism.  Converting Shia Islam into a political movement.  
 

No one is saying that there is no such thing as a political dimension to Islam.  No one is saying that.  But it is quite a different thing to maintain that Islam is political.  Understand the difference?  
islam is not political, but politics does have a role to play in Islam.  
 

 

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23 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Hey Zainuu,

So you have to be politically active as a Muslim?  So, is it a sin not to vote?  Is it a sin if you don’t aspire to be a political reformist?  

this is precisely the corruption of Shia Islam, namely the politicization of Shiaism.  Converting Shia Islam into a political movement.  
 

No one is saying that there is no such thing as a political dimension to Islam.  No one is saying that.  But it is quite a different thing to maintain that Islam is political.  Understand the difference?  
islam is not political, but politics does have a role to play in Islam.  
 

 

Look into history. Study and think yourself. And I never said that Islam is equal to politics. I said that they both are inseparable, agree with your last point and that is what I said. Politics is a part of Islam. 

And other than politics too, minority doesn't proportionate to significance. Jews are even less in number. 

Acknoledging what is siad by @Nightclawand @Mahdavist too it is easily understandable that you don't make any sense over here

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@Zainuu though i have to agree, shia Islam is not a political movement. Iran is just another nation using religion to garner support from its religious population, and its leaders showcase themselves as the leaders of all shia Muslims, as though they're the khalifa. Unfortunately many shia Muslims around the world have been fooled by this propaganda into thinking Iran is the last true Muslim country, heroically fighting against the evil american-Zionist empire. In truth its just protecting its interests and would be doing the same things as US is doing around the world if it was capable. 

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2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 I just don’t understand how they have the audacity of regarding Sunni Islam as invalid.  You get me?

If you're essentially saying that every belief that has one or more adherents is valid, and the validity increases with the number of adherents, then I get you even if I don't share the same reasoning.

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18 minutes ago, smma said:

Iran is just another nation using religion to garner support from its religious population, and its leaders showcase themselves as the leaders of all shia Muslims, as though they're the khalifa

Salam

To be clear, it is concept of Wilayat al Faqih. Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) unveiled the political dimension of Islam through this ideology. It is not a Caliphate but just an extension of highest shia scholarship into those aspects which are political. I don't remember but their is a term used for those issues in which a Wali-e-Faqih can interfere. I don't want to comment on this as Wilayat al Faqih is something which is debated. I agree with it but many (even scholars) disagree. 

28 minutes ago, smma said:

Unfortunately many shia Muslims around the world have been fooled by this propaganda into thinking Iran is the last true Muslim country,

This is incorrect. As far as I have learnt about wilayat al Faqih, their is no such claim. Blind belief of anything is wrong. 

 

29 minutes ago, smma said:

heroically fighting against the evil american-Zionist empire. In truth its just protecting its interests and would be doing the same things as US is doing around the world if it was capable. 

This depends on the perception through which we see politics. Let me ask you a question, if in your country a person who is really truthful, religious, pious and god-fearing steps up as a candidate to become the ruler of the country, will you support/vote him or any other dirty politician who is known for his corruption. 

Their is a quote, "Politics is bad because good people don't get involved in it."

Apparently, fighting imperialism is true for Iran. 

If we talk about interests, what are these interests? You need to clarify. Weren't they in peace during the time of shah? How about normalising with Israel? Imagine, all this querrel will end if they normalise with Israel. Why don't they do this? Why such a difficult route to protect their interests?

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10 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

  It is still a minor sect within Islam given that it doesn't even come close to 20% of the Sunni population.    I am genuinely interested in knowing how Shias cope with this fact (THIS REALITY)

The reality is the islamic world is Sunni. They for the most part are the Ummah. The most successful chapter in post Rasool islamic history is the reign of Hz Umar. That because there was unity. The Shias followed Imam Ali who took a back seat and aided Hz Umar by giving him guidance. 

We were united and manage to best the 2 superpowers and establish a stable just empire. (Not perfect obviously)

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8 hours ago, ShiaofAli12 said:

Sahih International: And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.

Surah 6 Verse 116

You just quoted the verse in haste!

Read it again –  Notice – it says “most of those upon the earth

I’ll give you some more verses with the same theme

Sahih International: And most of them believe not in Allah except while they associate others with Him (12:106)

Sahih International: Indeed, the Hour is coming - no doubt about it - but most of the people do not believe. (40:59)

Sahih International: Alif, Lam, Meem, Ra. These are the verses of the Book; and what has been revealed to you from your Lord is the truth, but most of the people do not believe. (13:1)

Now for surprise for you if you have missed it.  It states, “most of the people” And NOT MOST OF THE BELIEVERS!

The Blessed Quran always states that the Majority of Mankind will not believe!

If being a marginal minority was the benchmark of being on the right path, I’ll quote brother eThErEaL

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I see.  since 12ver Shias are MORE THAN Ismalis this means 12ver Shias are misled?

 

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If you would like to term 10-15% of the Muslim world as minor, then go ahead, but do not forget that in the eyes of Allah numbers are not a factor, if they were then Firaun would have been right over Musa(عليه السلام), then The polytheistic people of Musa would have been right over Harun(عليه السلام), then The people who planned to catapult Ibrahim(عليه السلام) would have been right over Ibrahim, etc.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

If you would like to term 10-15% of the Muslim world as minor, then go ahead, but do not forget that in the eyes of Allah numbers are not a factor, if they were then Firaun would have been right over Musa(عليه السلام), then The polytheistic people of Musa would have been right over Harun(عليه السلام), then The people who planned to catapult Ibrahim(عليه السلام) would have been right over Ibrahim, etc.

Salaam Brother MaisumAli

10-15% of the MUSLIM WORLD as minor,

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but do not forget that in the eyes of Allah numbers are not a factor, if they were then Firaun would have been right over Musa(عليه السلام), then The polytheistic people of Musa would have been right over Harun(عليه السلام), then The people who planned to catapult Ibrahim(عليه السلام) would have been right over Ibrahim, etc.

Here the majority are not Muslims!

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10 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

To be fair to them, they are the most well known side. Nobody speaks of Sufism, Barelvi, Deobandi, Ahmadiyya, etc. as much as Shi'ism. Everyone knows either Sunni or Shi'a, despite their fringe numbers.

But I guess everybody speaks of wahhabi?

 

common.  Are you wahabi?

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Hmm, why are Twelvers not a minor sect on a website called shiachat - that's a head scratcher.

Anyways, Sunnis aren't necessarily the majority because they are in the right - they are the majority because their beliefs are in line with the goals of the ruling elite throughout Islamic history. It was in their (the rulers') interests to suppress and oppose the teachings of Ahlul Bayt, and propagate those beliefs that legitimized their hold over leadership and power.

Btw, a bit off topic, but I have personally witnessed a staunch Wahhabi (a close friend) develop doubts and question his beliefs (I helped); most Wahhabis, or Sunnis in general, never actually think critically on their beliefs; they just parrot the beliefs of their parents, community, and the imam who delivers the Friday sermon. Ever heard a Friday sermon on the hadith of Ghadeer, perhaps the most mutawattir hadith in Sunni literature? I haven't. The general population doesn't even know it exists.

Twelvers, on the other hand, have a tendency to think, question, reflect, and learn from proper sources. Why? Having faced attacks and allegations on their beliefs all they lives, they sort of have to, as a defence mechanism.

 

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

But I guess everybody speaks of wahhabi?

 

common.  Are you wahabi?

I always tell Shi'a [and anyone in general] that they should refrain from saying "Wahabi" because it, in turn, makes fun of one of the names of Allah - Al-Wahhab (The Bestower). I know that you are an agonistic, though I request you refrain from making fun of Allah. 

To answer your question, I never like to label myself. But, as of the world and time we live in now, I have no other option. I am a Salafi/Athari, whichever one you know of.

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Just now, Nightclaw said:

I always tell Shi'a [and anyone in general] that they should refrain from saying "Wahabi" because it, in turn, makes fun of one of the names of Allah - Al-Wahhab (The Bestower). I know that you are an agonistic, though I request you refrain from making fun of Allah. 

To answer your question, I never like to label myself. But, as of the world and time we live in now, I have no other option. I am a Salafi/Athari, whichever one you know of.

u know we mean the scholar so why the whataboutism 

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1 hour ago, Nightclaw said:

I always tell Shi'a [and anyone in general] that they should refrain from saying "Wahabi" because it, in turn, makes fun of one of the names of Allah - Al-Wahhab (The Bestower). I know that you are an agonistic, though I request you refrain from making fun of Allah. 

 

I used to say wahabi till I learnt this.

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2 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

Twelvers, on the other hand, have a tendency to think, question, reflect, and learn from proper sources. Why? Having faced attacks and allegations on their beliefs all they lives, they sort of have to, as a defence mechanism.

 

This is largely true but funnily it's actually a type of minority complex.

In that the majority are so confident and almost in a passive state that they ignore anyone smaller than themselves. Whereas the smaller sect needs to justify it self to the larger group. It works on many levels.

For example me as a Zaidi have critical thinking over 12er and most 12er have no idea about Zaidi.

Another good example is the average ahmadi talking with a Sunni.

But if you look at a little above layman (take YouTube video of UK park debates) for example it suddenly appears as if the the Sunni are much mire well versed in Qur'an for example. 

Also from my experience  the average 12er  can probably rattle off arguments against Sunni but will have little knowledge of Shia hadith, akhbari, usooli, lives of later Imams.

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2 minutes ago, Warilla said:

For example me as a Zaidi have critical thinking over 12er and most 12er have no idea about Zaidi.

But if you look at a little above layman (take YouTube video of UK park debates) for example it suddenly appears as if the the Sunni are much mire well versed in Qur'an for example. 

...Also from my experience  the average 12er  can probably rattle off arguments against Sunni but will have little knowledge of Shia hadith, akhbari, usooli, lives of later Imams...

I can't speak on behalf of all Twelvers, but in my case, I was taught about other Shia sects when I was a kid - Ismaili (mainly Bohri and Nizari), and Zaydis in particular. There are no Zaydis in our part of the world (at least I have never met one), but we do know about them. We don't hold them in a negative light btw.

The Nizari sect though, their position is indefensible anymore once you scrutinize the lives of their last two Agha Khans. We just keep to ourselves though, and let them be (and vice versa). The Sunni majority informally doesn't even consider them Muslims. Bohris are quite devout and enthusiastic, and arguably they observe Azadari with more fervour than Twelvers.

Btw speaking of youtube videos, if people see Zakir Naik videos, he is apparently much more well versed in the Quran and Hadith, along with scriptures of other religions than most people alive. I had a Deobandi class mate, years ago, who used to wonder aloud whether he was Hazrat Isa ((عليه السلام)) in disguise (lol).

The average Twelver probably can't/doesn't want to debate against Zaydis for various reasons, chiefly, we don't have a bone to pick with them. Doesn't necessarily mean that we can't, it just wouldn't serve any fruitful purpose. I recall Ammar Nakhshwani refer to them as "our Zaydi brothers".

Btw, it was Twelver scholars who produced an iron-clad case that led to Ahmadis being declared Kafir. Wonder why Sunni scholars couldn't do that.

 

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4 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

1)I can't speak on behalf of all Twelvers, but in my case, I was taught about other Shia sects when I was a kid - Ismaili (mainly Bohri and Nizari), and Zaydis in particular.

 

2)Btw speaking of youtube videos, if people see Zakir Naik videos, he is apparently much more well versed in the Quran

3)The average Twelver probably can't/doesn't want to debate against Zaydis for various reasons,......... it just wouldn't serve any fruitful purpose.

1) You are more likely the exception. This forum is full of examples of 12er knowing alot about the sect larger than them but less about the one smaller

2) Zakir Naik undoubtedly has great knowledge of the Qur'an and non Muslim text. I'm don't understand the point you are making. To clarify my point was about perception of knowledge and critical thinking it depends on who, what where etc.

3) I agree because Zaidi are a minority compared to 12er. If it was reversed Zaidi would be discussing with Sunni and you would likely be refuting the larger Shia sect. (The whole theme of those topic is minority thinking/outlook).

 

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2 minutes ago, Warilla said:

2) Zakir Naik undoubtedly has great knowledge of the Qur'an and non Muslim text. I'm don't understand the point you are making. To clarify my point was about perception of knowledge and critical thinking it depends on who, what where etc.

Point is, it's very easy to fall prey to aesthetics. Just like UK park debate videos favour Sunnis, even a misguided Nasibi like him can appear to make sense to people who don't question and reflect.

Just because he knows facts doesn't mean that he is on the right path - what use are facts when one lacks depth and insight?

 

6 minutes ago, Warilla said:

3) I agree because Zaidi are a minority compared to 12er. If it was reversed Zaidi would be discussing with Sunni and you would likely be refuting the larger Shia sect.

Maybe; I can't deny the probability.

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5 hours ago, zahralzu said:

u know we mean the scholar so why the whataboutism 

I do not care. That is not the point. You are negatively using the name of Allah as an insult. It is not something that should be said because I know what you mean.

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4 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

"Sunnism" ultimately isn't one sect either. It is composite of several schools of `aqida (Athari, Ash`ari and Maturidi being the main ones), several schools of fiqh (Hanafi, Shafi`i, Maliki, Hanbali), Sufi turuq, and other trends.

I think that's a good point if you split groups in to theological groups

Athari

Ashari

Maturidi

Zaidi/ mutazila

Imami (12er, ismali)

I reckon Ashari would be the largest followed by Imami.

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