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Why is being homosexual a sin in Islam?

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4 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

Also, I apologise if I sounded confrontational. It's curiosity. A lot of Muslims I've spoken to say that it's just gay sex which is haram but then ostracise and hate those who are still just openly gay. But reading your posts, I can see you seem to have nothing against love relationships, and you also acknowledged that gay parents adopting is still a good thing, so I just want to say thank you for being good and respectful about this topic.

No, you were not confrontational. Asking questions is important. 

To clarify, in Islam Gay relationship has no recognition and sex between same genders is strictly Haram. But if two men live together and don't have any physical relationship whatsoever but just live as two brothers, then even if they open an orphanage for treating children, Islam has no problem with that at all.

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8 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

So then you have nothing against non-sexual gay relationships then, right? And nothing against openly gay people?

Being 'Gay' is completely concerned with a sexual orientation. 

Can I ask you a few questions?

How did you come to know you are a gay? Because just having an attachment towards males doesn't prove the point. 

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10 hours ago, Zainuu said:

How did you come to know you are a gay? Because just having an attachment towards males doesn't prove the point. 

This is a very interesting question that brings attention to the purely social identity of being gay, which I perceive as one of the main reasons for many Muslims to reject this word itself.

There are two aspects to it, one of them is the reality (desires at a romantic, psychological and physical level and how these shape your behaviour and personal goals) and the other part is the social identity constructed to reflect or refer to that reality, partly or totally.

If a kid has no references in TV, movies, local life, family, etc. of LGBT people, that will surely make him not identify as "gay" or LGBT, because there isn't any social identity that speaks or partly refer to the reality that kid is experiencing. This WILL NOT change the reality, and this is something that is absolutely crucial for people to understand and accept. The identity comes later, the reality was there first. The lack of social references will just socially hide the reality, and will most likely socially punish LGBT people if they behave in a non-normative way. Another problem is that many people don't believe what I just said in this paragraph, because there are examples of questioning or curious straights that have started questioning their sexuality or identity merely because they are more conscious of diversity. This, in fact, happens, but it shall not be used to say that the reality doesn't exist to begin with if there are no LGBT representation in media.

Going back to your question, it takes some time to fully recognize you are gay, it's a process. Sexuality develops gradually. It is especially more difficult for gays, for example, because there is a social education that makes us think that we should be with a woman, and we should like women. You realize you don't like women as your friends do, nor you feel any attachments to them, etc. On the other hand, your behaviour with men is somehow different. There are many clues, even when you are just a kid, that are reminding you that you are different. At certain age you just accept you are gay, because that word precisely describes your sexuality. It is important, nonetheless, to also understand it is not the core of your identity. Maybe here in SC it seems so, but because this topic is brought up a lot of times, and it's always the same people talking. In that sense, it's interesting to meet more diverse people in real life to realize it is just a small aspect of their identity.

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To summarize my former post with other words. The absolute lack of LGBT representation doesn't change the reality. You will compare yourself with the only references left, which are straight people.

I grew up without gay references, but had straight ones, and by comparing myself to them, I knew I was "sexually different". At the age of 13, I changed "sexually different" by "gay". That was it.

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1 hour ago, Bakir said:

It is especially more difficult for gays, for example, because there is a social education that makes us think that we should be with a woman, and we should like women. You realize you don't like women as your friends do, nor you feel any attachments to them, etc. On the other hand, your behaviour with men is somehow different. There are many clues, even when you are just a kid, that are reminding you that you are different.

No brother no. Their is no such education in society for gender selection. You can argue that about religion but not about gender. 

As a kid, a person doesn't have any sexual orientation because the reproductive organs are not active. At that time we can feel nothing about woman and might feel a lot about men, it doesn't reflects to our sexuality. You are just a kid at that time and new to the world. You have a thousand questions about everything. 

A mere realisation never made me, personally, get distracted from a woman. Their were a lot of harmonal and other biological things. It is simple biological material science. As for love, love is a different phenomenon and it is a spiritual reality. 

So, saying that, 'it was a realization that pointed to a (supposed) reality' doesn't answer my question. 

Why does this 'reality' has no purpose? 

 

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On 11/18/2020 at 5:47 AM, Nightclaw said:

Pigs have worms and parasites that you cannot get rid of, even with the right amount of cooking. They are very unclean animals; known to eat their own newborn and feces. They do not sweat due to lack of sweat glands, either. As we both are in the medical field, me in biology [currently] and you in pharmaceuticals, we should know how unclean this is [as they are unable to detoxify themselves and an array of other things].

I don't know what kind of biology you do? But as someone who also studied pharmacy at university...

.... sweating isn't for detoxing. Ones liver and kidneys do that. Sweating is for temperature regulation.

I'm pretty sure that cooking to a high enough temperature kills all the parasites in the pig eg trichinosis.

The real reason why pigs and humans is a bad combo, isn't the consumption of it, but the farming. Pigs act as a good intermediate step for viruses to mutate from animals to pigs to humans. 

Your excellent of "back passage" made chuckle. It reminded me of a joke a pharmacy professor told me:

A patient walks into a pharmacy, angry at the pharmacist because his treatment in the form of suppositories didn't work. "I put it in my back passage, and nothing happened!...I even tried putting it in the living room, the corridor, and the garden, and it still didn't work!"

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2 minutes ago, Randle McMurphy said:

.... sweating isn't for detoxing. Ones liver and kidneys do that. Sweating is for temperature regulation.

Yes, and does sweating not help toxins become removed from the body to aid the antibodies?

Second, are you a homosexual? It seems like, judging based off of your reactions to certain things I have said about homosexuals and your responses, that you are in fact a homosexual. However, I could be wrong.

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1 minute ago, Nightclaw said:

Yes, and does sweating not help toxins become removed from the body to aid the antibodies?

Second, are you a homosexual? It seems like, judging based off of your reactions to certain things I have said about homosexuals and your responses, that you are in fact a homosexual. However, I could be wrong.

1) Not that I'm aware of. I've never heard of that. I'd be very curious to hear by which mechanism sweating is used by humans to detoxify? I know some birds remove urea through tears. 

2) Sorry buddy, you're out of luck. I'm straight. But if you let me know your type, I can perhaps ask some of my single gay friends, to see if they are willing to go out with you?

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11 minutes ago, Randle McMurphy said:

1) Not that I'm aware of. I've never heard of that. I'd be very curious to hear by which mechanism sweating is used by humans to detoxify? I know some birds remove urea through tears. 

2) Sorry buddy, you're out of luck. I'm straight. But if you let me know your type, I can perhaps ask some of my single gay friends, to see if they are willing to go out with you?

The sweat glands help us to remove toxins from our bodies, but the liver and kidneys are the main proprietors of it.

I am not sure what you mean. I am not a homosexual nor do I date.

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1 minute ago, Nightclaw said:

The sweat glands help us to remove toxins from our bodies, but the liver and kidneys are the main proprietors of it.

I am not sure what you mean. I am not a homosexual nor do I date.

Well, pigs have both a liver and kidneys. As a species they are doing well, so I doubt the lack sweat is causing any detox based issues. BTW, birds also don't sweat - So if you can't eat pigs because of no sweat, you can't eat chicken either. 

That's ok man, you don't need to justify your sexuality to me. I accept you as a fellow Muslim brother whether you're straight or gay.

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1 hour ago, Randle McMurphy said:

I'm pretty sure that cooking to a high enough temperature kills all the parasites in the pig eg trichinosis.

At the temperatures we cook, things become "pasteurized" but not "sterilized". There is a significant difference. You should read about it. You should also read about the scientific reasons a lot of people prefer organic foods now. The reason is something derived from "we are what we eat". Its not among what we think we comprehensively know about nutrition so far. Its not just our bodies that we feed either when we eat. We also feed a universe containing thousands of different probiotics which are imperative to the survival and proper functioning of the body. Obeying the wise is something people don't do these days because everybody thinks they have the intellectual faculty to process information for themselves and independently know everything which is simply not true. New age people would rather lead their lives by "hit and trial" even if the process ruins them. It is the exact same reason why we have so many people who think Covid19 is fake, for instance.

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4 hours ago, Zainuu said:

As a kid, a person doesn't have any sexual orientation because the reproductive organs are not active. At that time we can feel nothing about woman and might feel a lot about men, it doesn't reflects to our sexuality.

Between the age of 10 and 12, sexual AND romantic desire develop as we understand it (adult sexuality). Before that, it is mostly kids' fantasy and curiosity. It makes little sense to speak about a kid's homosexuality at ages before 9, for example, because it has little to do to how we understand homosexuality when we grow up, which is way more specific. Nonetheless, that doesn't mean that kids cannot perceive some inherent differences at those ages in the way they experience sexuality. As I said before, at first, I understood myself as "sexually different", and it was not until I was 12-13 when I realized I was homosexual. Sexuality also develops during those ages.

It is important not to link sexuality to the sexual organs and their development, as sexuality goes beyond sex itself.

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Nonetheless, I should also thank you for bringing this point. Many groups of the so called "ex-gays" (heh) who support/go through conversion therapy usually talk about that early phase of sexuality and blame society, absent dads, etc (there is a huge list of stereotypical justifications lf why your kid isn't man enough, and most either blame women of his surroundings or absent fathers).

Many say that that early phase of sexuality "went wrong" (God knows what stupid thing that means) and the kid turned gay because of it. He has not developed enough. All these ideas tend to talk about how kids fantasize and are curious about manly men, and that ends up turning gay if they can't feel that manliness within themselves. The fact is that is completely stupid, something someone thought was a good idea to explain why homosexuality is bad and inferior. Just an excuse you will end up believing in an ex-gay workshop. Kids may look up to men due to a search for role models, references. If those references don't work for them, it's not going to make them gay, it may just mean that kid just doesn't naturally identify or perceive himself with the examples of men he finds in society. And for God's sake, THAT'S NORMAL AND NATURAL. It is precisely this inability to feel like the rest what may point at the fact you are different (and not necessarily gay, just different). An open society should be able to tolerate and let diverse people fully and ahppily develop within it, instead of suffering and feeling inferior all their lives.

Sadly, this is what conversion therapy enthusiasts consider right and good, for God knows which reasons (I guess it is their inability to rebel against their own beliefs and philisophy).

Another creepy thing is this taught obsession with straight manliness as if it was something good and superior gays should strive to have. At times, I think it is precisely this filthy and wrong education what created this common gay phantasy of sleeping with straight people.

There is a lot of literature in the topic. I invite you to read what exgays and conversion therapy "experts" say, analyze their discourse. Then read what the UN independent research has said about this whole structure of cruel liers and scammers.

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18 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

Why do you ruin everyone's taste by defiling this place by proudly advocating a greater sin like homosexuality?

Your logic is really flawed. Homosexuality isn't a sin, gay sex is. And yeah, I'll keep on being here cause if one more Muslim doesn't disown their kid for being gay, then it's right to be here. If one kid survives because of that, then this is the right thing.

 

  

18 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Being 'Gay' is completely concerned with a sexual orientation. 

Can I ask you a few questions?

How did you come to know you are a gay? Because just having an attachment towards males doesn't prove the point. 


I realised from like 9 I was only sexually attracted to guys.

Edited by gayboyanon
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3 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

I realised from like 9 I was only sexually attracted to guys.

9 is quite an early age to accept this realisation. May be I could have realised the same at 9, because their was no specific orientation. 

4 hours ago, Bakir said:

Many groups of the so called "ex-gays" (heh) who support/go through conversion therapy usually talk about that early phase of sexuality and blame society, absent dads, etc (there is a huge list of stereotypical justifications lf why your kid isn't man enough, and most either blame women of his surroundings or absent fathers).

That is their decision. In my opinion, they do the right thing because finally being a homosexual doesn't serve any purpose, that's it.

When Allah creates something, he attaches a purpose to that. Even having a sexual desire is because of it's necessity, serving these desires for to amuse and entertain oneself is strictly Haraam. 

4 hours ago, Bakir said:

THAT'S NORMAL AND NATURAL.

For this I still need to study because this is something I believe is debatable. First, It's not normal at all because it should have had a purpose in that case and for being natural I'll check it because I haven't researched much on it's scientific aspect. 

4 hours ago, Bakir said:

An open society should be able to tolerate and let diverse people fully and ahppily develop within it, instead of suffering and feeling inferior all their lives.

I am not against this part. And it happens with many normal people too. 

Don't want to offend you or anyone. 

But being a homo as an act (including all sexual aspects) is a sin and should not be allowed according to me. 

May Allah guide everyone to the right path. 

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14 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

Your logic is really flawed. Homosexuality isn't a sin, gay sex is. And yeah, I'll keep on being here cause if one more Muslim doesn't disown their kid for being gay, then it's right to be here. If one kid survives because of that, then this is the right thing.

 

  


I realised from like 9 I was only sexually attracted to guys.

How did you realize it at age of nine that you were only attracted to guys?  
 

I find this very hard to imagine.  (I can probably speak for everyone else here).

 

Edited by eThErEaL
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6 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

How did you realize it at age of nine that you were only attracted to guys?  
 

I find this very hard to imagine.  (I can probably speak for everyone else here).

 

Seeing men naked vs seeing women naked on Google made me realise I only liked guys. And you say you can't imagine it, but I'm sure a lot of you have had crushes at young ages before, and if that's the case, then it's really not hard to imagine someone knows their sexuality at age 9.

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9 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

Seeing men naked vs seeing women naked on Google made me realise I only liked guys. And you say you can't imagine it, but I'm sure a lot of you have had crushes at young ages before, and if that's the case, then it's really not hard to imagine someone knows their sexuality at age 9.

I've seen some boys at about 8/9 years of age behaving and conducting themselves in a very girly/feminine manner. I hope I don't cause you any offence by stating this because I don't want to stereotype. I do distinctly recall thinking about a particular boy: "This kids gay for sure". When he was a teenager he confided in a lot of people that he was gay and no-one was surprised. Everyone said they always knew. However, he was still outracized from the Shia community initially, and then forced to marry a woman from Pakistan against his free will. You could literally see it in his body language, his manner of speaking and how he conducted himself that he was gay since he was a small child. What are your views on this?

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1 hour ago, Aflower said:

I've seen some boys at about 8/9 years of age behaving and conducting themselves in a very girly/feminine manner.

Yeah, cause it's just that. It's just a stereotype. I'm not a stereotype and I have no intention of ever being a stereotype. I'm not offended since I know you didn't mean any offence by it, but I really don't much like being compared to the gay stereotype.

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1 hour ago, gayboyanon said:

Yeah, cause it's just that. It's just a stereotype. I'm not a stereotype and I have no intention of ever being a stereotype. I'm not offended since I know you didn't mean any offence by it, but I really don't much like being compared to the gay stereotype.

Thanks for understanding. OK, let me tell you a true story. About 15 years ago I had a work colleague (Hindu woman) who was dating a Shia girl. My work colleague never told me that the Shia girl was her girlfriend initially BTW. Neither did I have any idea that my colleague was a lesbian. When during our conversations one day I mentioned that I was a Shia, she asked me if I could meet her Shia friend who was in a bit of a quandary. When I met this Shia girl I was shocked to learn that she believed that having *** with a girl was not haram! She went on to tell me that her parents had found out about her relationship and had disowned her, and that she wanted my advise on how she could build bridges with her parents. I couldn't believe that this Shia girl could be so naive. How could anyone in their right mind not think that Islamically speaking this was haram? The Shia girl was studying Medicine so by no means was she docile or obtuse.

Anyway, the above is a whole different story! Through trying to help this Shia girl, I was introduced to a number of my colleague's gay friends, (mostly white guys), as they would hang out with her in the evenings. Please do not accuse me of stereotyping because I'm telling you what I witnessed. Without exception they were exceptionally loud, extroverted, they used extreme gesticulation, and wore so much fake tan that they literally defined the term being 'tangoed'. One day after work I was standing at the bus stop and my friend pointed out that this guy was staring at me. I looked up and I noticed a seemingly introverted, shy and really pale guy. A bus came up, the guy said 'Hi' to me and got on the bus. I kept thinking that I definitely recognised his voice, but I couldn't quite put my finger on who he was. Many hours later it dawned on me that he was one of my colleague's friends. But, without the fake tan, loud body language and wacky gesticulations, he seemed like a completely different person. So when gay guys themselves present themselves in such a dichotomous way - particularly with reference to how they are during their 'downtime', can anyone be blamed for stereotyping them? Please bear in mind that I'm simply referring to my personal experience and intend no ill-will with my question.      

Edited by Aflower
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4 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

Seeing men naked vs seeing women naked on Google made me realise I only liked guys. And you say you can't imagine it, but I'm sure a lot of you have had crushes at young ages before, and if that's the case, then it's really not hard to imagine someone knows their sexuality at age 9.

I have had crushes on on girls many times, but that all started at 12. 

By  the way, how old are you?  When you were nine, google was still around?  so, that makes you a very young chap here.   correct?    

 

You know...  but i wonder, about the younger folk who have grown up with technology.  I believe there is a study somewhere that shows that now people's sexual hormones are manifesting at an earlier age due to the bombardment of profane images on the internet.  So, maybe nine years of age this is a new normal.

 

??

Can anyone else here relate to this?   Anyone 18 or 19 on this forum?

Edited by eThErEaL
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46 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

I have had crushes on on girls many times, but that all started at 12. 

By  the way, how old are you?  When you were nine, google was still around?  so, that makes you a very young chap here.   correct?    

 

You know...  but i wonder, about the younger folk who have grown up with technology.  I believe there is a study somewhere that shows that now people's sexual hormones are manifesting at an earlier age due to the bombardment of profane images on the internet.  So, maybe nine years of age this is a new normal.

 

??

Can anyone else here relate to this?   Anyone 18 or 19 on this forum?

Sexual desires can actually arise even before you know what that means so yeah I think it's possible...

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50 minutes ago, Justsomeone said:

Sexual desires can actually arise even before you know what that means so yeah I think it's possible...

Yes true. But they are quite unknown, how can one assume a completely different sexuality from that? 

I read about the Theory of Fluidity from Dr. Lisa Diamonds. 

Where she said that sexuality is actually Fluid. To support the proof, she provided samples of gay people and provided a statistics on when they realized their sexuality. Most of them were born heterosexuals only, by a way large amount. So, I believe men have a fairly girlish and feminine nature from the birth up until their puberty. Some behave like that even after 12 or 13 for sometime. In fact you can notice sometimes such a behavior in fairly grown ups. 

So, I believe taking it seriously and assuming a completely different sexuality is wrong and that is why it is Haram. 

No one is born like that atleast.

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2 hours ago, Zainuu said:

read about the Theory of Fluidity from Dr. Lisa Diamonds. 

Where she said that sexuality is actually Fluid. To support the proof, she provided samples of gay people and provided a statistics on when they realized their sexuality. Most of them were born heterosexuals only, by a way large amount. So, I believe men have a fairly girlish and feminine nature from the birth up until their puberty. Some behave like that even after 12 or 13 for sometime. In fact you can notice sometimes such a behavior in fairly grown ups. 

That was quite an interesting read. They say female sexuality is more fluid while male sexuality is stable. And they also say that sociocultural factors may play a role in it.

Quote

The social constructivist view suggests that sexual desire is a product of cultural and psychosocial processes[36] and that men and women are socialized differently. This difference in socialization can explain differences in sexual desire and stability of sexual orientation. Male sexuality is centered around physical factors, whereas female sexuality is centered around sociocultural factors,[34] making female sexuality inherently more open to change. The greater effect on female sexuality in 1970s sexual revolution shows that female shifts in sexual orientation identity may be due to greater exposure to moderating factors (such as the media).[37] In western culture, women are also expected to be more emotionally expressive and intimate towards both males and females. This socialization is a plausible cause of greater female sexual fluidity.[38] Whether female sexuality is naturally more fluid and therefore changes from social factors or social factors cause female sexuality to be less stable is unknown.

From Wikipedia ^^

In the west males are less encouraged to be physically touchy with their men friends (it's considered weird for men to hug each other there if I'm correct) while us women are often touchy and comfortable with each other.

The thing is, it's different in the Middle East where all that is seen normal for men, I've seen many youtubers be weirded out by the openness of men there. So I wonder if men fluidity is also different there?

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I have read a few of the threads here, and I think some people need to carefully select the right terms.

First of all, I have never ever supported the LGBTQ+ community. It disappoints me sometimes to see on social media young Muslims supporting them and calling out on other Muslims who don't, even though their reasons are for it being against Islam. What I don't understand is why some believe that it is not haram to support LGBTQ+ when it is so clear that it definitely is against Islam's morals, just like other things. You don't see other Muslims supporting non Muslims for drinking, eating pork, committing Zina etc., of course not since that's against Islam.

Muslims nowadays or anyone who doesn't support it or show the slightest bit of their views get called homophobic. Whilst I somewhat agree that being gay and not acting on those sins are not haram, this whole debate on whether  someone is 'born' gay or that they were mostly affected by factors around them, appears to be very controversial and is not something that is backed up by science to prove that there is such thing as a homosexual gene that exists in the name of genetics. 

What does make me wonder often about this whole issue is if someone ended up being gay, how would he/she get married given the fact that homosexual marriage is clearly against Islam? Would they try to go into conversion therapy, or would they still choose to marry the same sex? And not just Islam, but almost any religion out there, in fact Christianity appears to be more strict about it in terms of homosexuality and zina than Islam is.

I have watched a small documentary a while ago, which talks about how most transgender people living in the US believed that they made the wrong decision when going through transition. They say that they regretted transitioning and have done it at a state of time where they were confused about their identity, and most of them came from abusive homes; which is also a pattern I have noticed that there are alot gay people whom come out of homes that are abusive, so it is safe to say that environmental factors surrounding them is also a valid reason.

Also what upsets me is when ethnic families disown their kids because they're gay, which is something I would never accept if I were to have a family somewhat in the future. It doesn't matter how they turn out to be, kids are an amaanah from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and to kick them out of their houses because they're homosexual is also haram on them. A good parent would know how to deal with that kind of situation. 

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Justsomeone said:

That was quite an interesting read. They say female sexuality is more fluid while male sexuality is stable. And they also say that sociocultural factors may play a role in it.

From Wikipedia ^^

In the west males are less encouraged to be physically touchy with their men friends (it's considered weird for men to hug each other there if I'm correct) while us women are often touchy and comfortable with each other.

The thing is, it's different in the Middle East where all that is seen normal for men, I've seen many youtubers be weirded out by the openness of men there. So I wonder if men fluidity is also different there?

Although, women naturally tend to be more flexible and adapting.

They say men's brain is compartmentalized while women's brain is wired everywhere as in everything is connected so that might also be the reason

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On 11/20/2020 at 5:19 AM, Zainuu said:

That is their decision. In my opinion, they do the right thing because finally being a homosexual doesn't serve any purpose, that's it.

When Allah creates something, he attaches a purpose to that. Even having a sexual desire is because of it's necessity, serving these desires for to amuse and entertain oneself is strictly Haraam. 

Maybe there are a few who are happy lying to themselves without any external pressure, but the reality is quite different. There is a system of cruelty behind conversion therapy and those who go through it. It has never been THEIR choice, there is a context (family, society, legality) that forces them to go through it willingly, or they will face the bad consequences of opposing to it. There is actual research as I mentioned earlier by the UN, in many countries in the world. Conversion therapy is criminal, and it's wrong to even call it therapy because it has no credentials, it's a scam and a cruel system. And research is available for those who show some genuine interest in the truth. It is often quoted to propose government bans on these practices all around the world.

The thing here is that homophobic  people just don't like reality, so they create an alternative false explanation of homosexuality, and create stories and theories and 'therapies' to support this false explanation. Merely because they just don't want to do the little effort to accept other human beings as equals. 

On 11/20/2020 at 5:19 AM, Zainuu said:

For this I still need to study because this is something I believe is debatable. First, It's not normal at all because it should have had a purpose in that case

Purpose has to do with one's personal beliefs and goals in life. That is something strictly personal. Some people have sex because they enjoy it, and that is the purpose of it. Condoms exist for that reason. You deciding to live your life seeing things as sex as something strictly reproductive is part of your personal beliefs, but not something that shall affect the rest who live their lives with different views. Especially if you also believe in a tolerant society, where people can hold different beliefs and meanings of life.

On 11/20/2020 at 5:19 AM, Zainuu said:

But being a homo as an act (including all sexual aspects) is a sin and should not be allowed according to me. 

No one discussed the prohibition of homosexuality in Islam. It is also nothing it will ever change, because Islam can't change.

35 minutes ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

You don't see other Muslims supporting non Muslims for drinking, eating pork, committing Zina etc., of course not since that's against Islam.

People don't suffer structural discrimination for drinking or eating pork. I totally understand and empathize with social minorities supporting each other.

The moral code and world view may be different, but the defense of tolerance can be a common ground. You may believe homosexuality is a sin and still support their rights, it's not incoherent.

38 minutes ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

conversion therapy

Again, this is a lie and a scam. There is research on the subject, don't present it as an alternative because many kids end up suffering from this proven scam.

40 minutes ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

which talks about how most transgender people living in the US believed that they made the wrong decision when going through transition.

These are exceptional cases in fact. Moreover, ex-trans people still defend their legal right to transition.

42 minutes ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

which is also a pattern I have noticed that there are alot gay people whom come out of homes that are abusive

These are horror stories to deem homosexuality as some sort of trauma or problem with tangible causes, instead of a sexual orientation that one may have regardless of one's background.

You guys have to start realizing that for many decades, right and alt-right lobbies and groups have actively and consistently developed anti-LGBT propaganda. And all the products of this propaganda is constantly brought up to these debates in SC. I always reply and invite you to properly research the subject from reliable neutral sources, because I have read this propaganda tons of times before and made proper research after that. Because it genuinely affects me. I understand straight people may just say "ok", but it's not tol hard to do a little more research just to make sure you are getting your info from reliable sources.

49 minutes ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

A good parent would know how to deal with that kind of situation. 

The only right way to deal with it is to grow tolerance and accept the kid's choices, whatever these are. Conversion therapy is cruelty, not the right choice. It is not the middle ground between doing the right thing or kicking them out of your house.

It doesn't happen only in ethnic families. I have many white friends whose families not only kicked them out of their house, but also punched them, spitted at them, etc. Others who were forced into "therapy" and decided to lie in order not to lose their families. Really, I have seen very closely all those cases. Homophobia is real, and fighting it starts by education. Debates like this are part of the education against homophobia, but we can't move forward if we are still bringing propaganda made by American conservative Christian lobbies here. And SC is mostly an eco chamber of all the nonsense that fuels homophobia in society.

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5 hours ago, Bakir said:

Some people have sex because they enjoy it, and that is the purpose of it. Condoms exist for that reason. You deciding to live your life seeing things as sex as something strictly reproductive is part of your personal beliefs, but not something that shall affect the rest who live their lives with different views. Especially if you also believe in a tolerant society, where people can hold different beliefs and meanings of life.

I am quite tolerant with anyone. But no, sex is not about enjoyment sir. In that way you can also legitimize prostitution and pornography. In fact, if you treat enjoyment as a purpose then the pedophiles, nacrophiles and those who commit incest are also right to do so.

 

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7 hours ago, Justsomeone said:

That was quite an interesting read. They say female sexuality is more fluid while male sexuality is stable. And they also say that sociocultural factors may play a role in it.

From Wikipedia ^^

In the west males are less encouraged to be physically touchy with their men friends (it's considered weird for men to hug each other there if I'm correct) while us women are often touchy and comfortable with each other.

The thing is, it's different in the Middle East where all that is seen normal for men, I've seen many youtubers be weirded out by the openness of men there. So I wonder if men fluidity is also different there?

Interesting. Very interesting. This answers one more question and that is the increase of LGBTQ+ in the western society and is quite less but increasing in the east. 

In the east, westernization of every culture and people might be a big reason for this increase. 

Western society are much more liberal and acceptable towards anything. One more reality about the west is that they might be stereotypical towards some sort of people but they are definitely explorative. They always want to explore new things and always try to mess with everything. 

Which indeed might be a cause for so many new genders to come up one after the another.

While the east has no time at all to think upon such things as they have to develop and their culture is in a different shape then the west. 

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On 11/21/2020 at 2:34 PM, Zainuu said:

I am quite tolerant with anyone. But no, sex is not about enjoyment sir. In that way you can also legitimize prostitution and pornography. In fact, if you treat enjoyment as a purpose then the pedophiles, nacrophiles and those who commit incest are also right to do so.

 

You are comparing things that are entirely different. Islamically speaking, all of the acts you mentioned are sexual deviancies and I understand you compare them and consider them part of the same pack. Nonetheless, in a moral debate you are imposing here your very own personal view that doesn't really take into consideration key characteristics of these acts.

Necrophiles, zoophiles, and pedophiles are abusing others' rights. Yes, they may be non normative, but they are also wrong acts. The flawed logic is to try to deem any non normative act as something that shall be socially disliked and condemned. And that is not the right criteria to condemn morally something. It wasn't normative to see mixed marriages (black and white), yet today it is something normal and socially accepted. And it happened because there were people who questioned this normativity, and were socially punished for that. Yet we managed to evolve from that in a more just and tolerant society, because there was no moral justification to be against mixed marriages. Nonetheless, there is more than enough moral justification that you cannot possibly ignore to condemn pedophilia, necrophilia and zoophilia. You don't need to say "Allah said it's wrong/haram". You can explain to anyone that is wrong, and anyone living in society should be able to understand you, and unable to justify the contrary.

In prostitution, there is indeed a long social and moral debate on it. And it's mostly related to the economic system that turns us into slaves more than anything else. If people had equal opportunities and support to develop themselves fully, prostitution wouldn't be a thing. I believe we can absolutely be against prostitution, or pornography, and condemn the way they turn us into pieces of meat, and at the same time defend the rights of people to love someone of the same gender. What I don't really see is why you consider that is not possible. I myself am against prostitution and pornography (and put the blame on the capitalist system we live in) and at the same time defend LGBT rights. And I can defend this position with solid and explained points, if you can tell me what makes it incoherent to defend both things at the same time.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Bakir said:

You are comparing things that are entirely different. Islamically speaking, all of the acts you mentioned are sexual deviancies and I understand you compare them and consider them part of the same pack. Nonetheless, in a moral debate you are imposing here your very own personal view that doesn't really take into consideration key characteristics of these acts.

Necrophiles, zoophiles, and pedophiles are abusing others' rights. Yes, they may be non normative, but they are also wrong acts. The flawed logic is to try to deem any non normative act as something that shall be socially disliked and condemned. And that is not the right criteria to condemn morally something. It wasn't normative to see mixed marriages (black and white), yet today it is something normal and socially accepted. And it happened because there were people who questioned this normativity, and were socially punished for that. Yet we managed to evolve from that in a more just and tolerant society, because there was no moral justification to be against mixed marriages. Nonetheless, there is more than enough moral justification that you cannot possibly ignore to condemn pedophilia, necrophilia and zoophilia. You don't need to say "Allah said it's wrong/haram". You can explain to anyone that is wrong, and anyone living in society should be able to understand you, and unable to justify the contrary.

In prostitution, there is indeed a long social and moral debate on it. And it's mostly related to the economic system that turns us into slaves more than anything else. If people had equal opportunities and support to develop themselves fully, prostitution wouldn't be a thing. I believe we can absolutely be against prostitution, or pornography, and condemn the way they turn us into pieces of meat, and at the same time defend the rights of people to love someone of the same gender. What I don't really see is why you consider that is not possible. I myself am against prostitution and pornography (and put the blame on the capitalist system we live in) and at the same time defend LGBT rights. And I can defend this position with solid and explained points, if you can tell me what makes it incoherent to defend both things at the same time.

 

 

Wait,

Are you saying it is alright to have anal intercourse?  Isn't this harming the body?  Doesn't the body have rights?    Alright, let us say that because you follow Jaferi fiqh, anal intercourse is makrooh (even though Ayatollah Fadhlullah has a fatwa forbidding it), but let us say for argumnet's sake that it is allowed in your fiqh.  fine.  It may be allowed but it is still makrooh (by your own admission).  Are you saying that it is ALRIGHT TO DO MAKROOH ACTS?  The reason it is makrooh in Jaferi fiqh is simply because it is harmful to the body.  You do not own your body, you are not the body.  You don't decide to do what you want with the body.  

    

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On 11/21/2020 at 8:54 AM, Zainuu said:

Interesting. Very interesting. This answers one more question and that is the increase of LGBTQ+ in the western society and is quite less but increasing in the east. 

In the east, westernization of every culture and people might be a big reason for this increase. 

Western society are much more liberal and acceptable towards anything. One more reality about the west is that they might be stereotypical towards some sort of people but they are definitely explorative. They always want to explore new things and always try to mess with everything. 

Which indeed might be a cause for so many new genders to come up one after the another.

While the east has no time at all to think upon such things as they have to develop and their culture is in a different shape then the west. 

Sh. Hamza Yusuf made an interesting point that the accessibility of pornography is also to be blamed for the increase in homosexuality.  The reason he says is because men are not just seeing the opposite gender, they are seeing their own gender and so the openness to explore homosexuality becomes more likely.  

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On 11/21/2020 at 1:54 PM, Zainuu said:

Interesting. Very interesting. This answers one more question and that is the increase of LGBTQ+ in the western society and is quite less but increasing in the east. 

In the east, westernization of every culture and people might be a big reason for this increase. 

Western society are much more liberal and acceptable towards anything. One more reality about the west is that they might be stereotypical towards some sort of people but they are definitely explorative. They always want to explore new things and always try to mess with everything. 

Which indeed might be a cause for so many new genders to come up one after the another.

While the east has no time at all to think upon such things as they have to develop and their culture is in a different shape then the west. 

The reason you see more gay people nowadays isn't some Westernisation thing, or increase in pornography, it's that more people are comfortable coming out because being LGBT is becoming more widely accepted. There's probably the same percentage of LGBT people, but an increase in the number of those who have come out.

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