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Why is being homosexual a sin in Islam?

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I really wonder why is it so complex for many Muslims to accept the prohibition of homosexuality in Islam without inventing false justifications to deem it some sort of evil modern Western satanic trend. As a Muslim I had never had any issue in accepting the prohibition of homosexuality merely because Allah said so. That was enough, because it's a matter of belief. In many aspects, Islam do demand you to believe without questioning (for example, in dietary restrictions).

Nonetheless, I never considered this topic simple. It is precisely this compulsive need many Muslims have to deem homosexuality as something repulsive, satanic, and a Western evil trend (not merely because Allah made it haram) that does real harm to queer people, especially those in Muslim/Arab/South Asian settings.

Let's check this topic itself, through a few quotes:

2 hours ago, aashiq-e-hussain said:

there has been an uptick in LGBTQ issues to to the recent need to be "different", as emphasized in so many places.

In most places in the world, being different in the sense you are LGBTQ is a serious disadvantage. The norm is that it's not something you desire to be.

2 hours ago, aashiq-e-hussain said:

but 10-14 is a bit young to be identifying your god given sex, so you might want to reflect.

That's your opinion. The opinion of a straight person with an evident predisposition to think this is an unnatural social trend. Ask queer people, after all, they know better than anyone (wait, no, they are the ONLY people who really know when you start identifying your sexual preferences and gender condition).

2 hours ago, aashiq-e-hussain said:

if ALL major world religions say that something is wrong, then it is surely ought to be wrong.

Do I have to explain why this is a fallacy?

1 hour ago, Nightclaw said:

If it contains things that are harmful and unnatural

First thing I was told in the first year in Pharmacy studies was "natural doesn't mean healthy, and viceversa". The professor later told us the number of people who died in my city every year because they made drinks with some leaves that grow here, thinking it's a healthy tea.

On 11/16/2020 at 4:26 PM, Nightclaw said:

However, the fact of the matter is that the anus was not made for intercourse and the vagina was.

You realize that anal sex is permissible in Islam right (although makrooh)? What is impermissible is homosexuality. You can't kiss a man you love if you are a man, but you can have anal sex with your wife or your slave. It's not a matter of what is more natural. It's a matter of a moral code you accept when you accept Islam. And we can go even deeper if we want to talk about the thighing fatwa, but I don't want to use filthy tactics in this debate.

In any case, it's important to understand that Islam doesn't draw the line merely on health principles. If you smoke, you can keep smoking. You can eat like a pig, and have a terribly sedentary lifestyle. It's a moral code, not a set of healthy lifestyle guidelines.

On 11/16/2020 at 11:10 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

by encouraging  humans to stop creating new generations

We need more human beings! fast, reproduce! Kill those who dare not to bring more children to this overpopulated world where in most places there is an alarming number of children suffering from hunger and lack of shelter.

This one really amazes me, because suddenly unborn kids are more important that those who are dying out of hunger right now.

On 11/16/2020 at 10:52 AM, Zainuu said:

Because this form of relationship has no future. What is the motive of a relationship? Is it only sex? No, it has many reasons.

This one surprised me, because it looks at homosexuality as something purely sexual. A homosexual relationship has very similar goals to a heterosexual one. It's difference here seems to rely in its inability to biologically give birth (though that is still possible in cis-male/trans-male couples). But indeed, as everyone, queer people do also need life companions, care, attention, intimacy, etc. These are real needs to keep a healthy lifestyle *checks his healthy life guidelines*

On 11/16/2020 at 12:06 PM, Randle McMurphy said:

3) Many religions rely on gender segregation in order to prevent sexual desires interfering with certain objectives (e.g. religious schooling, sport, health care etc.). Homosexuality allows this gender segregation to become ineffective.

This is probably my favorite paragraph in this thread, because it specifically answers the OP's question from a social approach, because it points at the core problem of religious LGBTQphobia. It's not a matter of health, nor filthyness. Neither it's a matter of reproduction. It's a matter of hegemonic education and culture. Non-normative people (queer people) are always unwelcome by its own society. Thus, even queer people who won't fall into any of the above mentioned fallacies, such as asexual people, or non binary people, will always be excluded and marginalised. It's easier for the hegemonic culture to exclude queer people than to understand them, unless there is a systematic, organized and never exhausted force to keep pressuring for a change. There is a very interesting and fundamental read on this topic (though it is significantly wider than the issue of homosexuality, as it talks about non-normativity), which is Elisabeth Noelle-Neumann's Spiral of Silence.

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Committing homosexuality is a sin in Islam. As this particularly act introduces corruption in society. Now, what is corruption. Infiltrating something with something in order to make that particular e

Hello. I am glad you decided to ask a question. Firstly, I will say that anything unnatural in Islam is considered forbidden, especially if it is harmful. It is a disgusting, vile act for an innumerou

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5 minutes ago, Bakir said:

I really wonder why is it so complex for many Muslims to accept the prohibition of homosexuality in Islam without inventing false justifications to deem it some sort of evil modern Western satanic trend. As a Muslim I had never had any issue in accepting the prohibition of homosexuality merely because Allah said so. That was enough, because it's a matter of belief. In many aspects, Islam do demand you to believe without questioning (for example, in dietary restrictions).

Nonetheless, I never considered this topic simple. It is precisely this compulsive need many Muslims have to deem homosexuality as something repulsive, satanic, and a Western evil trend (not merely because Allah made it haram) that does real harm to queer people, especially those in Muslim/Arab/South Asian settings.

Let's check this topic itself, through a few quotes:

In most places in the world, being different in the sense you are LGBTQ is a serious disadvantage. The norm is that it's not something you desire to be.

That's your opinion. The opinion of a straight person with an evident predisposition to think this is an unnatural social trend. Ask queer people, after all, they know better than anyone (wait, no, they are the ONLY people who really know when you start identifying your sexual preferences and gender condition).

Do I have to explain why this is a fallacy?

First thing I was told in the first year in Pharmacy studies was "natural doesn't mean healthy, and viceversa". The professor later told us the number of people who died in my city every year because they made drinks with some leaves that grow here, thinking it's a healthy tea.

You realize that anal sex is permissible in Islam right (although makrooh)? What is impermissible is homosexuality. You can't kiss a man you love if you are a man, but you can have anal sex with your wife or your slave. It's not a matter of what is more natural. It's a matter of a moral code you accept when you accept Islam. And we can go even deeper if we want to talk about the thighing fatwa, but I don't want to use filthy tactics in this debate.

In any case, it's important to understand that Islam doesn't draw the line merely on health principles. If you smoke, you can keep smoking. You can eat like a pig, and have a terribly sedentary lifestyle. It's a moral code, not a set of healthy lifestyle guidelines.

We need more human beings! fast, reproduce! Kill those who dare not to bring more children to this overpopulated world where in most places there is an alarming number of children suffering from hunger and lack of shelter.

This one really amazes me, because suddenly unborn kids are more important that those who are dying out of hunger right now.

This one surprised me, because it looks at homosexuality as something purely sexual. A homosexual relationship has very similar goals to a heterosexual one. It's difference here seems to rely in its inability to biologically give birth (though that is still possible in cis-male/trans-male couples). But indeed, as everyone, queer people do also need life companions, care, attention, intimacy, etc. These are real needs to keep a healthy lifestyle *checks his healthy life guidelines*

This is probably my favorite paragraph in this thread, because it specifically answers the OP's question from a social approach, because it points at the core problem of religious LGBTQphobia. It's not a matter of health, nor filthyness. Neither it's a matter of reproduction. It's a matter of hegemonic education and culture. Non-normative people (queer people) are always unwelcome by its own society. Thus, even queer people who won't fall into any of the above mentioned fallacies, such as asexual people, or non binary people, will always be excluded and marginalised. It's easier for the hegemonic culture to exclude queer people than to understand them, unless there is a systematic, organized and never exhausted force to keep pressuring for a change. There is a very interesting and fundamental read on this topic (though it is significantly wider than the issue of homosexuality, as it talks about non-normativity), which is Elisabeth Noelle-Neumann's Spiral of Silence.

I see what you are saying! But I just don't see why you have to call yourself homosexual.  Why not just call yourself effeminate....  

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On 11/15/2020 at 4:30 PM, Guest anonymous said:

Hello. I'm an atheist from Florida, and a question that I have is why being LGBT+ is sinful in Islam. Specifically, I am curious as to why being homosexual is sinful. Like, what is so intrinsically wrong about it? As a homosexual myself, I don't think I'm doing anything wrong by being a homosexual. Like, I don't feel like there is an intrinsic moral obligation to not be homosexual. Is the commandment just arbitrary? Like, there is no reason for it? And please don't answer my question with an argentum ad verecundiam fallacy, I've got enough of those.

when a person sins and it becomes routine for him, it becomes like a daily routine for him and not a sin anymore. If you want to know if what you are doing is sin or not, please ponder over its effects. The effect of homosexuality lies in understanding the fact that if all human becomes homosexual, who will give birth to infants and how will new human race come to life. It is an immoral atomic bomb which I hope you will realize someday.

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2 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

I see what you are saying! But I just don't see why you have to call yourself homosexual.  Why not just call yourself effeminate....  

Because homosexual people aren't inherently effeminate. The condition of homosexuality, however, do question the idea of masculinity, and thus, effeminacy has both become a sign of identity historically used by homosexuals (in different times and places) and a characteristic to insult them.

As for the reason of calling yourself homosexual, it is mostly political nowaday. If LGBTQphobia didn't exist, and there didn't existthe heavy assumption that all people are straight (and must/should be straight), there would be no need to call yourself homosexual. The same way there is no need to say you are straight.

Neumann studied public opinion as some sort of social control where individuals adapted their behaviour to what the dominant part of society considered tolerable and not tolerable. Anyone who dares to question the dominant public opinion is putting himself at risk of social exclusion and marginalisation.

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31 minutes ago, Bakir said:

First thing I was told in the first year in Pharmacy studies was "natural doesn't mean healthy, and viceversa". The professor later told us the number of people who died in my city every year because they made drinks with some leaves that grow here, thinking it's a healthy tea.

Then it turns out it was harmful to oneself, which is in turn prohibited in Islam.

31 minutes ago, Bakir said:

You realize that anal sex is permissible in Islam right (although makrooh)? What is impermissible is homosexuality. You can't kiss a man you love if you are a man, but you can have anal sex with your wife or your slave. It's not a matter of what is more natural. It's a matter of a moral code you accept when you accept Islam. And we can go even deeper if we want to talk about the thighing fatwa, but I don't want to use filthy tactics in this debate.

I do not believe the first part of what you said for the following reasons:

The one who has intercourse with his wife in her back passage has disavowed himself of that which was revealed to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).
Narrated by Abu Dawood (3904); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah will not look at a man who has intercourse with a woman in her back passage.
Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (1165); classed as saheeh by Ibn Daqeeq al-‘Eid in al-Ilmaam (2/660) and by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi. 

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “He has been cursed, who goes into his wife from her back side.
Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 2162; classified as hasan (acceptable) according to Al-Arna’ut.

As for your initial claim that it is permissible, it is clearly proven that this is not the case. It is completely prohibited. About this "thighing fatwa", I have no idea what this is, but I pray you know what you are talking about. If you want to try and be "filthy", go ahead. If you attack, I am going to attack as well. Be respectful and the same treatment will be upon you. However, play nasty. I am very good at playing the games of others.

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In any case, it's important to understand that Islam doesn't draw the line merely on health principles. If you smoke, you can keep smoking. You can eat like a pig, and have a terribly sedentary lifestyle. It's a moral code, not a set of healthy lifestyle guidelines.

How much do you actually know about Islam to make this claim? Smoking is not allowed, as it is harmful. Muslims do it anyway - but that does not make it permissible. You are giving these fatwas as if you are able to. Stop that, because you are not [presumably] a Muslim - and you a certainly no Mufti. 

Pigs have worms and parasites that you cannot get rid of, even with the right amount of cooking. They are very unclean animals; known to eat their own newborn and feces. They do not sweat due to lack of sweat glands, either. As we both are in the medical field, me in biology [currently] and you in pharmaceuticals, we should know how unclean this is [as they are unable to detoxify themselves and an array of other things].

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44 minutes ago, Bakir said:

We need more human beings! fast, reproduce! Kill those who dare not to bring more children to this overpopulated world where in most places there is an alarming number of children suffering from hunger and lack of shelter.

This one really amazes me, because suddenly unborn kids are more important that those who are dying out of hunger right now.

Salam , I didn't  mean these nonsense  things but problem of hunger & lack of shelter for children is due poor management  & corruption  of officials in third world countries  & oppression of so called first world countries by stopping  or destroying  necessary  resources for providing food & shelter but it doesn't  relate to your nonsense  logic.

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40 minutes ago, Bakir said:

Because homosexual people aren't inherently effeminate. The condition of homosexuality, however, do question the idea of masculinity, and thus, effeminacy has both become a sign of identity historically used by homosexuals (in different times and places) and a characteristic to insult them.

Being effeminate is insulting?  I don't think so.  Everyone is has more or less masculine/feminine traits in different proportions and degrees.  Everyone is so different.  For example, some guys appear to be so masculine in almost everything except for something so small, they may have a feminine trait (like being particularly sensitive about a certain matter, or about crossing their legs).  Everyone is so different in different ways.  masculine and feminine traits or qualities are spread apart in so many different shades, degrees, and ways!    It isn't BLACK AND WHITE.  This is the problem with identification.  It restricts someone to JUST ONE THING.

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As for the reason of calling yourself homosexual, it is mostly political nowaday. If LGBTQphobia didn't exist, and there didn't existthe heavy assumption that all people are straight (and must/should be straight), there would be no need to call yourself homosexual. The same way there is no need to say you are straight.

It is not merely about what you "call" yourself.  Like I would call myself heterosexual.  But I am clearly not "attached" to this label in the way you seem to be attached to being homosexual.  It seems to stir something within you and others here who identify as homosexual.  I am not talking about a mere name or a label here.. I am talking about a strong belief that YOU ARE THIS and NOT THAT. 

Look, if someone saw me and for SOME reason, in their head they felt I was gay, and they told me.. " you are gay right?".. I couldn't care less.  I would say, No, I am hetero (because I am not into guys).. but I wouldn't feel offended by them calling me gay.  

 

 

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33 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Being effeminate is insulting?  I don't think so. 

It's not, of course it's not. Nonetheless, homosexuals have historically been identified as effeminate, and in the male chauvinist world we live in, this is perceived as a negative trait by many people, thus it's used as an insult (both men and women). You have most likely heard "gay" used as an insult to call a man coward, for example, because "he is not man enough" (addressing the, wrongly seen as manly, characteristic to be brave). On top of that, effeminate men and masculine women are non-normative within society, and they will perceive those non-normative traits somehow unwelcome in certain environments.

37 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

It isn't BLACK AND WHITE.  This is the problem with identification.  It restricts someone to JUST ONE THING.

It isn't black and white, I totally agree. Identification isn't necessarily restrictive. Nonetheless, you may perceive it so due to understanding being gay as being in one single specific way. The fact is that gays are as diverse as straights. There are tall, fat, thin, stupid, intelligent, educated, ignorant, masculine, effeminate, etc. I fear you may be referring to the white effeminate rich gay stereotype.

43 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

  I am not talking about a mere name or a label here.. I am talking about a strong belief that YOU ARE THIS and NOT THAT. 

Look, if someone saw me and for SOME reason, in their head they felt I was gay, and they told me.. " you are gay right?".. I couldn't care less.  I would say, No, I am hetero (because I am not into guys).. but I wouldn't feel offended by them calling me gay.  

I wouldnt feel offended by someone assuming I'm hetero. In my former post, I addressed the assumption of being heterosexual as an example of the dominant expected condition we perceive, not because it annoys me by itself. If you were gay, you probably would notice the pressure of this assumption in many aspects, because being gay isn't perceived as something normal (in the statistical sense of the word). For example, in a South Asian or Arab family, this assumption may translate in constant pressure to marry, rumours about you being gay (as if it is something bad and affects the honor of your family), etc.

I really wish we didn't feel the need to say I'm gay. But the lack of references and the importance of being socially visible to raise awareness is enough reason to be like that. For many of us, this political action is not ideological preference, it is survival. For example, every year at the university I tell my students that I'm homosexual. It seems stupid because there is no reason to know the sexual orientaton of your teacher. Nonetheless, every year I get at least a dozen emails thanking me for telling that, because it helped them to feel safe to say who they really are and have an LGBT professional reference. It does help, it does make a change, and harms nobody.

1 hour ago, Nightclaw said:

Then it turns out it was harmful to oneself, which is in turn prohibited in Islam.

Indeed, but it was natural. That was the point. Natural doesn't equate good/halal, unnatural doesn't equate bad/haram.

1 hour ago, Nightclaw said:

As for your initial claim that it is permissible, it is clearly proven that this is not the case. It is completely prohibited. About this "thighing fatwa", I have no idea what this is, but I pray you know what you are talking about. If you want to try and be "filthy", go ahead. If you attack, I am going to attack as well. Be respectful and the same treatment will be upon you. However, play nasty. I am very good at playing the games of others.

If the wife is consenting, regardless of it being strongly makrooh, it is halal from a fiqhi standpoint. As far as I am aware, it's not regular people who decide what is halal or haram according to the narrations, but scholars. Who do you follow to say that anal sex is haram? Or am I wrong assuming you are shiite?

You can do your own research on the thighing fatwa, it was just an example of what can be socially perceived as unnatural and sick, being discussed if haram or halal. I'm not attacking nor threating anyone, just saying I feel it is unnecessary to bring extreme (yet real) examples in a topic that should be understood with more simple ones. I find that way of debating somewhat filthy, I don't like to bring extreme examples.

1 hour ago, Nightclaw said:

Smoking is not allowed, as it is harmful. Muslims do it anyway - but that does not make it permissible. You are giving these fatwas as if you are able to. Stop that, because you are not [presumably] a Muslim - and you a certainly no Mufti. 

I'm not giving any fatwa. Do your own research man, what the heck. You say "smoking is haram" when there is a huge diversity of opinions in the matter, especially if you are already a smoker. To start smoking is an entirely different issue. Do your own research before questioning me, you are falling in the errors you accuse me of doing.

I'm not a Muslim anymore, that doesn't mean I haven't been one for over a decade.

1 hour ago, Nightclaw said:

Pigs have worms and parasites that you cannot get rid of, even with the right amount of cooking.

You realize that "eating like pigs" isn't "eating pig" right?

For Gods' sake...

1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam , I didn't  mean these nonsense  things but problem of hunger & lack of shelter for children is due poor management  & corruption  of officials in third world countries  & oppression of so called first world countries by stopping  or destroying  necessary  resources for providing food & shelter but it doesn't  relate to your nonsense  logic.

It doesn't relate but in some way it does. You won't see anti-abortion and anti-LGBT people worried about kids dying in Africa, or about ecology, because it's not about the kids nor the continuity of our species, it's about ideology, THEIR ideology and THEIR agenda. That a small percentage of population is gay isn't going to affect the human species continuity. Ferocious Capitalism, ecological degradation of our planet, and wars are a real threat. I feel that speaking about the continuity of human species when talking about homosexuality is somewhat pointless, because it really doesn't matter. And what the heck, this is the reality man. What do you want me to do, to go and marry a girl I don't like, to make kids I don't want? Just to save humanity? Do you realize the lack of connection with reality?

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1 minute ago, Bakir said:

Indeed, but it was natural. That was the point. Natural doesn't equate good/halal, unnatural doesn't equate bad/haram.

1 hour ago, Nightclaw said:

Read what I said - unnatural and harmful. Not unnatural alone. Computers are unnatural - am I sinning by using them? No.

3 minutes ago, Bakir said:

If the wife is consenting, regardless of it being strongly makrooh, it is halal from a fiqhi standpoint. As far as I am aware, it's not regular people who decide what is halal or haram according to the narrations, but scholars. Who do you follow to say that anal sex is haram? Or am I wrong assuming you are shiite?

You can do your own research on the thighing fatwa, it was just an example of what can be socially perceived as unnatural and sick, being discussed if haram or halal. I'm not attacking nor threating anyone, just saying I feel it is unnecessary to bring extreme (yet real) examples in a topic that should be understood with more simple ones. I find that way of debating somewhat filthy, I don't like to bring extreme examples.

I am not a Shi'a. I am a Sunni/Salafi/Athari. I have given you hadith from authentic narrations by the Messenger (may the peace and blessings be upon him) that state this action of anal intercourse is prohibited. No problem if you initially assumed I am Shi'a - this is a Shi'a website, after all. 

I have just read it [the hadith] in Arabic and there is no mention of the word "thighing". The word actually translates to "friction, to rub oneself against (usually sexually)", but easily referred to in English as "thighing" - which is a false.. It is not present. That is why you should not take things from outside sources trying to look within.

7 minutes ago, Bakir said:

I'm not giving any fatwa. Do your own research man, what the heck. You say "smoking is haram" when there is a huge diversity of opinions in the matter, especially if you are already a smoker. To start smoking is an entirely different issue. Do your own research before questioning me, you are falling in the errors you accuse me of doing.

I'm not a Muslim anymore, that doesn't mean I haven't been one for over a decade.

Bring a single fatwa from a Sunni scholar saying smoking is permissible. Just one.

A lot of people are ex-Muslim nowadays, aren't they? I am curious - what drove you to lead Islam? I know it was not the religion itself, but perhaps something else. What is it? Well, what was it?

9 minutes ago, Bakir said:

You realize that "eating like pigs" isn't "eating pig" right?

For Gods' sake...

It is clear I misread. All you had to do was clarify.

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2 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

I am not a Shi'a. I am a Sunni/Salafi/Athari. I have given you hadith from authentic narrations by the Messenger (may the peace and blessings be upon him) that state this action of anal intercourse is prohibited. No problem if you initially assumed I am Shi'a - this is a Shi'a website, after all. 

I have just read it [the hadith] in Arabic and there is no mention of the word "thighing". The word actually translates to "friction, to rub oneself against (usually sexually)", but easily referred to in English as "thighing" - which is a false.. It is not present. That is why you should not take things from outside sources trying to look within.

If you are not shia, this entire point isn't valid for you. My bad, I assumed you were shiite. In the mobile version of this site I don't see which religion you have. Same goes for the thighing fatwa.

4 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Read what I said - unnatural and harmful. Not unnatural alone. Computers are unnatural - am I sinning by using them? No.

Yeah, it keeps valid, unnatural and harmful. Again, can't talk for sunni hadiths on smoking, but in shia Islam, if you are already a smoker, most scholars say you can continue doing so. It is unnatural AND harmful, yet it is halal.

Unnecessary yet necessary disclaimer: In no way I want to talk about homosexuality being halal, it is haram in Islam. I just want to point about the reasons given in this topic for it to be haram. Questioning the reasons here is in no way questioning the fact that in Islam it is haram.

8 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

A lot of people are ex-Muslim nowadays, aren't they? I am curious - what drove you to lead Islam? I know it was not the religion itself, but perhaps something else. What is it? Well, what was it?

I disliked most Muslims for my entire life, but I never took a step away from religion because of that, I refused to be like that. I left because I truly believe humans ourselves bring sense, and make sense of our lives, in the Existentialist sense of it. In the other hand, I believe in progress through mistakes (not in the sense of sins, but in the sense of beliefs), I don't think we can find what perfection is (Islam) and be perfect (Muslim). Lastly, for me, morality is socially built, without any doubt. I do believe in God, and follow a moral code/discipline nonetheless.

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19 minutes ago, Bakir said:

It doesn't relate but in some way it does. You won't see anti-abortion and anti-LGBT people worried about kids dying in Africa, or about ecology, because it's not about the kids nor the continuity of our species, it's about ideology, THEIR ideology and THEIR agenda. That a small percentage of population is gay isn't going to affect the human species continuity. Ferocious Capitalism, ecological degradation of our planet, and wars are a real threat. I feel that speaking about the continuity of human species when talking about homosexuality is somewhat pointless, because it really doesn't matter. And what the heck, this is the reality man. What do you want me to do, to go and marry a girl I don't like, to make kids I don't want? Just to save humanity? Do you realize the lack of connection with reality?

You are the person that has lack of connection  with reality because sterilization (hidden genocide) of so called first world countries is doing undercover of humanist projects in third world countries that majority of these so called humanist  (Satanic) projects are supporting by groups  that they are supporting  LGBT+ & etc under umbrella  of so called Humanist project that maybe no there is a small percentage of population  already are gays but the Evil organizations have the agenda to make LGBT + Gay & etc a dominant thing around the world by fake Humanist  slogans like your nonsense  slogan .

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4 minutes ago, Bakir said:

I disliked most Muslims for my entire life, but I never took a step away from religion because of that, I refused to be like that. I left because I truly believe humans ourselves bring sense, and make sense of our lives, in the Existentialist sense of it. In the other hand, I believe in progress through mistakes (not in the sense of sins, but in the sense of beliefs), I don't think we can find what perfection is (Islam) and be perfect (Muslim). Lastly, for me, morality is socially built, without any doubt. I do believe in God, and follow a moral code/discipline nonetheless.

Why did you dislike Muslims? What did they do, exactly? I am always curious for more information.

Secondly, if morality is socially built, then you would have to be okay with slavery. Everyone at a certain period of time was accepting of slavery and the dehumanization foreigners [i.e., the Europeans to the non-Europeans], especially Africans. As an African-American, I dislike the idea of the fact you accept morality is socially built. This entails that if a society decides raping women is morally acceptable, then that is fine. Or raping babies. Or burning people alive. Or sacrificing people for the sake of it. If all of these are socially ingrained within a society, you would accept it? Surely not.

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2 hours ago, Bakir said:

This one surprised me, because it looks at homosexuality as something purely sexual

You didn't read all my posts. I clarified above that problem is not with making love. You can love anyone. Your father, mother, brother, sister etc, all are lovable. Any one, anywhere, in this world or not, you can love. It is a different notion. But you cannot fall in relationship and you don't need one (relationship) to express love.  

Problem of homosexual relationship is purely sexual if you break it down. 

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Just now, Nightclaw said:

Why did you dislike Muslims? What did they do, exactly? I am always curious for more information

Oh, I have been surrounded by the worst examples of "Muslims". I was aware of that, and refused to judge Islam itself by the unfortunate bad examples I have seen in my life.

1 minute ago, Nightclaw said:

Secondly, if morality is socially built, then you would have to be okay with slavery.

It is the exact contrary. If it is socially built, it can change and be constantly revised. Nonetheless, in Islam slavery is still halal, and will always be, forever.

3 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Why did you dislike Muslims? What did they do, exactly? I am always curious for more information.

Secondly, if morality is socially built, then you would have to be okay with slavery. Everyone at a certain period of time was accepting of slavery and the dehumanization foreigners [i.e., the Europeans to the non-Europeans], especially Africans. As an African-American, I dislike the idea of the fact you accept morality is socially built. This entails that if a society decides raping women is morally acceptable, then that is fine. Or raping babies. Or burning people alive. Or sacrificing people for the sake of it. If all of these are socially ingrained within a society, you would accept it? Surely not.

This should go in an entirely new thread (maybe I should start one hahah), but the thing isn't about "social constructs" that become moral dogmas. But that morality is an inherent part of the creation of society (in the contractualist sense), that happens in its own creation, and that is adopted by the members of society not out of personal interest but as a moral code than belongs to them. Thus, a person without religion that is part of society will be able to naturally experience morality in a honest altruist way. I will, God willing, write a thread on the topic soon.

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24 minutes ago, Bakir said:

I disliked most Muslims for my entire life, but I never took a step away from religion because of that, I refused to be like that. I left because I truly believe humans ourselves bring sense, and make sense of our lives, in the Existentialist sense of it. In the other hand, I believe in progress through mistakes (not in the sense of sins, but in the sense of beliefs), I don't think we can find what perfection is (Islam) and be perfect (Muslim). Lastly, for me, morality is socially built, without any doubt. I do believe in God, and follow a moral code/discipline nonetheless.

I don't know why you left Islam but none of your opinions can ever bother a sane muslim. No one is perfect and no one can be. But a quest to become perfect can atleast make you progress at a good pace. 

May Allah be your helper and your guide and your protector.

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5 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

You didn't read all my posts. I clarified above that problem is not with making love. You can love anyone. Your father, mother, brother, sister etc, all are lovable. Any one, anywhere, in this world or not, you can love. It is a different notion. But you cannot fall in relationship and you don't need one (relationship) to express love.  

Problem of homosexual relationship is purely sexual if you break it down. 

Hmm, I should have explained myself better, sorry. I was referring to romantic love, not just love as a concept. This type of bond is necessary for most (as it is sex as well). Not needing it usually means the person isn't fit for monogamy nor polygamy, but agamy.

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5 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

none of your opinions can ever bother a sane muslim.

It works the same way around, to be honest, and that's ok. We shouldn't expect others to follow our paths. I really feel that religious people should stay religious if it works for them, and I'm happy for them.

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2 minutes ago, Bakir said:

Hmm, I should have explained myself better, sorry. I was referring to romantic love, not just love as a concept. This type of bond is necessary for most (as it is sex as well). Not needing it usually means the person isn't fit for monogamy nor polygamy, but agamy.

You again mistook me. Problem with homosexuality is solely focused on sex, whether it is through romantic love or not, it doesn't matter. 

Sex: the very act itself

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1 minute ago, Bakir said:

It works the same way around, to be honest, and that's ok. We shouldn't expect others to follow our paths. I really feel that religious people should stay religious if it works for them, and I'm happy for them.

Every person has his own path. What matters is that a human in his nature should be humble, accepting and free in choosing by reason, logic, philosophy, wisdom etc. 

Rest, Allah is the guide and he will surely guide. 

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Look at this story:

https://medium.com/prismnpen/when-did-you-know-you-were-gay-ecd3c6833e00
 

This person realized he was gay while doing his homework as a sixth grader. The homework, had nothing to do with his sexual orientation by the way!  

i mean this is crazy!! Clearly this is like a psychic entity that took over him as a kid.  @Bakir  hey Bakir, don’t you think this crazy as well?  Or is it just me?  This CLEARLY a jinn or some psychic residual effect of some other human lingering and randomly leeching on to a host.   
 

 

Quote

 

I remember this moment as if I could go back and relive it. I was in sixth grade. It was after school on a random weekday and I was alone in the house. Lured there by the family cat, I was doing my social studies homework on my parents’ bed.

As my colored pencil scratched across the map of Egypt I was outlining, I suddenly jolted and thought oh my god, I’m gay.

I have no idea what spurred this realization — probably the random wanderings of the mind that typically occur when a lonely sixth-grader is doing uninspiring homework to the accompanying purr of a cat.

I put down the colored pencil as tears filled my eyes and all these heavy realizations hit me like black lightning bolts: people are going to dislike me based on something I can’t change, my own family might reject me, I’m automatically different from a vast majority of people, it will be harder for me to find love, and there’s not a single thing I can do to change any of it.

These are deep thoughts for a 12-year-old, but that’s a byproduct of marginalized people being forced to mature more quickly than our non-marginalized counterparts as we come to terms with the pressing weight of the world on our shoulders.

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL
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8 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Look at this story:

https://medium.com/prismnpen/when-did-you-know-you-were-gay-ecd3c6833e00
 

This person realized he was gay while doing his homework as a sixth grader. The homework, had nothing to do with his sexual orientation by the way!  

i mean this is crazy!! Clearly this is like a psychic entity that took over him as a kid.  @Bakir  hey Bakir, don’t you think this crazy as well?  Or is it just me?  This CLEARLY a jinn or some psychic residual effect of some other human lingering and randomly leeching on to a host.   
 

 

 

Hahah, enjoyed the read. The djinn must have been the cat purring lol. To be honest, I find the story a bit crazy, but I guess it's coz it's different for each one. I didn't fully realize "I'm gay" until 11, yet I knew when I was 6-7. It didn't start as something specifically sexual, but you know you aren't like the rest of men, and project your future differently. You also get annoyed when you see your relatives disliled gay people on TV, or using synonyms of gay as an insult. You don't identify as "gay", the word isn't you, but in certain sense, you realize it's related to a reality you experience and cannot escape. Buuuut, I never realized it in a specific moment and cried for it, to be honest. It happened slowly, it was definitely a slow process. To be honest I never cried for being gay nor felt sad about my condition, except when asking forgiveness and help from Allah. That used to happen quite a lot. For a few years, actually. In my case, the way I experienced religion wasn't toxic at all though. Like, I never thought Allah hated me for that or anything. I always understood it as one condition I live with, but the path to Allah is the same for all. Some have difficulties to walk in certain parts of the path, others have other problems. In that sense, I considered the path to Allah equally just for all, and I still do.

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27 minutes ago, Bakir said:

You don't identify as "gay", the word isn't you, but in certain sense, you realize it's related to a reality you experience and cannot escape.

I don't understand this, who told you that you are a 'gay'? How certain feelings projected you towards something that is so different and you accepted this as a reality? Knowing that their are only 2 types of body configurations in the world (neglecting the disablities), how you found yourself different from men.

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7 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

If their source is permissible, we are allowed to take it. If it contains things that are harmful and unnatural - then it is impermissible. I do not know where you get this from.

Medicine is literally unnatural. It's manmade. That makes it unnatural. If you deny that, then your definition of unnatural is messed and you have no real reason for saying being gay is unnatural or whatever, because clearly the definition means nothing to you.

  

9 hours ago, aashiq-e-hussain said:

The recent whole LGBTQ culture has had a negative effect on the youth of today

How so?

  

6 hours ago, Zainuu said:

How a homosexual relationship can be a healthy contribution to the society

Literally I just said. They give kids a home.

  

6 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Already, the statistics are their which show the youth population graph going upside down. And you know, in this case adoption will not effect. 

Every kid is important dude. If a gay couple adopts 1 kid, and helps them, that's important.

I'll check page 2 later.

Edited by gayboyanon
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23 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

Every kid is important dude. If a gay couple adopts 1 kid, and helps them, that's important.

I'll check page 2 later.

Being 'gay' has nothing to do with adoption. I don't have a problem with two men taking care of an orphan. May Allah reward them for that. 

But I am talking about a sexual relation between them, it is pointless in every aspect. 

If someone steals and also helps the poor, it doesn't justify stealing. 

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3 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

Medicine is literally unnatural. It's manmade. That makes it unnatural. If you deny that, then your definition of unnatural is messed and you have no real reason for saying being gay is unnatural or whatever, because clearly the definition means nothing to you.

  

I do not know if it is hard for you to understand, but the criteria was unnatural and harmful. You keep singling unnatural out to find a flaw but you are excluding what the criteria makes up. Anything unnatural AND harmful is prohibited.

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6 hours ago, Bakir said:

It is the exact contrary. If it is socially built, it can change and be constantly revised. Nonetheless, in Islam slavery is still halal, and will always be, forever.

7 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

You are correct - it will always be halal forever, providing that one obtains these slaves during war and only this. There is also a method of treating them.

6 hours ago, Bakir said:

This should go in an entirely new thread (maybe I should start one hahah), but the thing isn't about "social constructs" that become moral dogmas. But that morality is an inherent part of the creation of society (in the contractualist sense), that happens in its own creation, and that is adopted by the members of society not out of personal interest but as a moral code than belongs to them. Thus, a person without religion that is part of society will be able to naturally experience morality in a honest altruist way. I will, God willing, write a thread on the topic soon.

Things do not just happen inherently or randomly. Humans cannot guide themselves because they themselves are flawed. Even with the proper guidance, people go astray - how can we set up our own morals? There are a lot of places that show throughout history what happens when you have society guided by their own morals. Take for example Ancient Greece and Rome - having sex with little boys was a norm, even going so far as the rape them. Take a look at the Mongols - raping, burning and killing the women and children of the Turks. It is clear what having a morally driven society based off of the individuals themselves is not practical.

Anywho, I look forward to this thread you will write. I am always interested in discussing these things.

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13 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Being 'gay' has nothing to do with adoption. I don't have a problem with two men taking care of an orphan. May Allah reward them for that. 

But I am talking about a sexual relation between them, it is pointless in every aspect. 

If someone steals and also helps the poor, it doesn't justify stealing. 

Also, I apologise if I sounded confrontational. It's curiosity. A lot of Muslims I've spoken to say that it's just gay sex which is haram but then ostracise and hate those who are still just openly gay. But reading your posts, I can see you seem to have nothing against love relationships, and you also acknowledged that gay parents adopting is still a good thing, so I just want to say thank you for being good and respectful about this topic.

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13 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

Literally I just said. They give kids a home.

I think being homeless is better than being raised homosexual as a kid, a prevert raised by preverts who believes preversion is okay, probably having preverted things done to them as kids in order to make them feel that preversion and homosex is fine, dandy and "natural". I would much rather be a kid in Yemen, earn jannah and avoid having garbage spoon fed to me or worse, or have any sympathy for homoism to face all eternities burning in fire.

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50 minutes ago, The Green Knight said:

I think being homeless is better than being raised homosexual as a kid, a prevert raised by preverts who believes preversion is okay, probably having preverted things done to them as kids in order to make them feel that preversion and homosex is fine, dandy and "natural". I would much rather be a kid in Yemen, earn jannah and avoid having garbage spoon fed to me or worse, or have any sympathy for homoism to face all eternities burning in fire.

People always seem to forget that the prophet had sympathy and respect for even his enemies, and by saying that you shouldn’t have sympathy for gay people, you’re inadvertently implying that gay people are worse than the enemies of the prophet and I hope you know how messed up that is.

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I haven't read all the responses. I'm a firm believing Shia and 100% straight, but I've got to say that my heart goes out to anyone who is attracted to people of the same gender. I can't imagine what it feels like to be gay, but it must be a real test from God to have to deal with such conflicting feelings. I've often wondered how I'd react if one of my kids or close family members told me they were gay. You see, I certainly can empathise with people who are gay, and unlike most Muslims, I don't feel disgusted by the idea that someone could feel this way. IMO it's not a sin to feel this way as one has little/no control over it, but rather it's a sin to act upon it. I'm not grossed out by it, but I simply accept the wisdom of Allah that acting upon it would be haram. May Allah give strength to any unfortunate soul who is in this heart wrenching predicament.

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1 hour ago, The Green Knight said:

I think being homeless is better than being raised homosexual as a kid, a prevert raised by preverts who believes preversion is okay, probably having preverted things done to them as kids in order to make them feel that preversion and homosex is fine, dandy and "natural". I would much rather be a kid in Yemen, earn jannah and avoid having garbage spoon fed to me or worse, or have any sympathy for homoism to face all eternities burning in fire.

With respect, this is not a value adding post.

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2 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

People always seem to forget that the prophet had sympathy and respect for even his enemies

Sympathy and respect. I think your understanding of the words is flawed.

There is always sympathy for someone in all actions. Some times for the enemies, other times for other creatures to protect them from the enemies and sometimes even for ourselves. The only thing that mattered to him was to execute the Divine Will in the best manner possible. When Imam Ali (عليه السلام) killed two homos as punishment for their crime of practicing homo sex, and then burning their bodies, even then he was sympathetic because the punishment erased their otherwise unforgivable sin, and burning their bodies is out of respect for nature. It is what you do not understand. Before he would fight he offered his adversaries peace, invitation to peace or accepting their protection, but when the enemy insisted to wage war upon all he stood for, the sympathy was for the human society which would profit from the removal of evil.

You are preaching homosexuality, advocating it, the same team making and floating threads regularly, openly admitting to your greater sin. What sympathy do you expect? As for respect, show me where have I been disrespectful? Is warning you of your unthinkable fate disrespect? I am the most sympathetic person here for you because I am sincere to you and have given it to you straight and honestly. All of you. Hell is just a word. The reality is unthinkable. It is not far and it is unthinkably a bad place. Death and judgement are unavoidable. You should amend your ways and repent. It is the sympathy of our Creator that you should seek but which you will not taste if you do not. Rather you proudly confess of it and are easing people towards it. Even talking of kids, most innocent things in this world, to let evil adopt them and bring them up according to their way, and you call it "helping the society". Well I am in a 180 degrees of disagreement on all things. It is your kind who should respect society and have mercy on it. Have mercy on this website and give up preaching homosexuality.

Please. Have mercy on me and other believers like me who come on to Shiachat expecting to meet Shias and hear about our beliefs. Instead some of us get really tired reading Sodomites posting pompously on a forum rather meant for us. Don't gays have their own forums, your own clubs etc.? Why do you ruin everyone's taste by defiling this place by proudly advocating a greater sin like homosexuality? It would be extremely sympathetic of you to simply not make us aware of your sin or existences. But since you won't, I have already been even more sympathetic than you could ever be and warned you of your destination if you continue down this path. No disrespect and no cruelty imaginable compares to what is waiting at its end which is very near.

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