Why disbelief in The Creator is contrary to logic and reasoning.

[Nightclaw]

Atheism is the disbelief in any theistic deity or deities, primarily Allah (what you would call God). The definition in itself is quite contradictory, as it proves the existence of Allah. If Allah was not present, there would be no reason to disbelieve and certainty about there being no creator is not even a discussion (just as every human being in their right mind knows for certain Naruto does not exist in the real world).

Moreover, to believe that every thing* is created and ultimately will reach it's demise (the universe included) and to state that the universe came to be out of nothing is... well, to take a word out of an atheist's book to someone who believes in Allah, it is mere fairy tale and imagination. This is not reasonably deduced nor induced. This is not a logical conclusion. Even if the Law of Matter is in place, this still does not change the fact that without the universe, matter does not exist. It is a fact that the universe was created. However, that is for another day.

To disbelieve in Allah due to this fault in the faculty of reason is not enough a reason to reject The Creator. You could argue a second point - the people following these religions. Again, this is problematic. No human being is absolutely perfect. This quality belongs to Allah (God) alone. You can have perfect guidance, but man will still find ways around it. You would have to point fingers at what the religion teaches, not those who practice it.

If you have not created yourself, nor the earth itself, nor the moon itself, nor the sun itself nor anything in creation, then any human being with a sound mind can deduce that something must have created it. To state otherwise would have to entail evidence behind it - in which there is not an iota of such. Nothing just comes into creation (yes, not even the energy balls in space that appear and reappear out of observation in space). Nothing. Therefore, if you disbelieve in The Creator, then chances are that you are not properly utilizing your intellect and knowledge given to you.

 

* According to the physics definition of the word "thing", it applies to the context within the universe.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Nightclaw

[Guest Finally]

You’re speaking my language. Finally, a smart person on Shiachat. And that I completely agree with you.
 

Finally, a theoretical and a philosophical view rooted in reason as opposed to people pulling hadiths left and right they don’t know how to explain and are self-righteous about.   

[Nightclaw]

8 hours ago, Guest Finally said:

You’re speaking my language. Finally, a smart person on Shiachat. And that I completely agree with you.
 

Finally, a theoretical and a philosophical view rooted in reason as opposed to people pulling hadiths left and right they don’t know how to explain and are self-righteous about.   

The Qur'an tells you to reason and use your intellect on numerous occasions. I am glad to hear you agree with me, brother. Although I completely disagree, I thank you for calling me smart.

As for the second part, what do you mean?

[smma]

Atheists believe everything that exists just exists, it doesn't need a creator. Your argument, unfortunately, will not convince them. 

For many atheists its not even a matter of logic, athiests who truly believe in science will not be 100% convince by their own believes too as in science you cant ever be sure of anything, mostly they choose not to be religious because of the laws and limitations religion brings. 

[Nightclaw]

5 hours ago, smma said:

Atheists believe everything that exists just exists, it doesn't need a creator. Your argument, unfortunately, will not convince them. 

For many atheists its not even a matter of logic, athiests who truly believe in science will not be 100% convince by their own believes too as in science you cant ever be sure of anything, mostly they choose not to be religious because of the laws and limitations religion brings. 

I do not care to convince people. Only Allah can change hearts. My job is to simply convey the message of the Messengers of Allah using whatever applicable method applies. Atheists can believe what they want. They can chase their tails and bark at people who believe in a Creator with reasoning and logic as much as they would like. I hear a lot of them saying it is all fairy tale, but they fail to realize that the universe simply coming into existence or existing by itself for a long period of time while everything in it is randomly assembled shows that they believe in fairy tales as much as we do. 

You can be sure of things in science - that is why there are unchangeable truths and facts. Gravity is a fact, the sun radiating heat is a fact, the earth rotating, earthquakes, tidal waves, etc. Deduction and induction is part of science and it can be used to find truth - they just want to reject it due to the need to claim superiority and feel good about themselves morally - in which they are subjective about.

I always ask this question to atheists: "Is morality subjective?"

They answer: "Yes."

I then ask: "Is that subjective?"

They answer: "Yes."

This goes to show more than what I could possibly explain.

Regardless, excuse my tangent. I agree with you, mostly. Any atheist who claim that something just exists surely does not know enough about the science that they rely upon so heavily as a refutation and way of life for their religion of Atheism.

[Ali bin Hussein]

I'll add to that in that atheism is unscientific as well. As the basis of science is to find the answer or step before what you observe.

The basis of atheism is I don't know or it was always there.

If we all had the atheist mentality then we would get no where and science would not exist.

All theist does is give an ultimate theory/answer. It takes nothing away from being a scientist.

Both science and beleif in a creator come from the same mindset, the need to discover truth. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Warilla

[khamosh21]

On 11/15/2020 at 9:31 AM, Nightclaw said:

Atheism is the disbelief in any theistic deity or deities, primarily Allah (what you would call God). The definition in itself is quite contradictory, as it proves the existence of Allah. If Allah was not present, there would be no reason to disbelieve and certainty about there being no creator is not even a discussion (just as every human being in their right mind knows for certain Naruto does not exist in the real world).

Moreover, to believe that every thing* is created and ultimately will reach it's demise (the universe included) and to state that the universe came to be out of nothing is... well, to take a word out of an atheist's book to someone who believes in Allah, it is mere fairy tale and imagination. This is not reasonably deduced nor induced. This is not a logical conclusion. Even if the Law of Matter is in place, this still does not change the fact that without the universe, matter does not exist. It is a fact that the universe was created. However, that is for another day.

To disbelieve in Allah due to this fault in the faculty of reason is not enough a reason to reject The Creator. You could argue a second point - the people following these religions. Again, this is problematic. No human being is absolutely perfect. This quality belongs to Allah (God) alone. You can have perfect guidance, but man will still find ways around it. You would have to point fingers at what the religion teaches, not those who practice it.

If you have not created yourself, nor the earth itself, nor the moon itself, nor the sun itself nor anything in creation, then any human being with a sound mind can deduce that something must have created it. To state otherwise would have to entail evidence behind it - in which there is not an iota of such. Nothing just comes into creation (yes, not even the energy balls in space that appear and reappear out of observation in space). Nothing. Therefore, if you disbelieve in The Creator, then chances are that you are not properly utilizing your intellect and knowledge given to you.

 

* According to the physics definition of the word "thing", it applies to the context within the universe.

I'll work on trying to respond with what issues I have with the above proof/argument. But first I would like you to describe what is the purpose of creation overall, why God has created anything, and more specifically the purpose of human creation (and why).

[khamosh21]

This is how I understand the above.

We do not know how the universe, creation, existence, whatever we and other things are in existence, and how they came about or what there was before.

I agree that infinite regression seems fairly illogical considering how we perceive and understand reality. However I would argue just as believers argue that God is beyond understanding or explanation at times, similarly the existence of the universe is also beyond our current understanding and ability to explain existence. We don’t understand how time, light, gravity, space, how any of this works… neither science or religion has any type of satisfactory answers.  

Since we don’t know how existence came about, I am unable to jump to the conclusion that there is a necessary being, specially the way God is described in Islam. Yes there is some cause. Additionally for the sake of argument I’ll accept there is some type of necessary being… however this is only one part of the puzzle. For me the problem lies in how this one part of the puzzle fits with the rest of religion… what we are told about the purpose of life vs what life is like in reality. How God is described vs what has happened in history. Please note that I have read the Quran repeatedly since I was a kid, with translation, and I also have some basic grasp of Arabic grammar and vocab… despite being familiar with the Quran, it hasn’t quenched my questions/issues.

Since I have not seen the Prophet or anyone of that calibre, I have not met anyone that can actually directly contact the divine or have access to the unseen or knowledge the Prophet had… I find it extremely difficult to accept the word of “scholars”, historians, and books about the events that took place. I find it difficult to believe in the stories of saints and similar people, there is nothing like that I have experienced in my life. Additionally I see the pattern of ascribing supernatural abilities among practically every religion and sect till this day, with not a single person being able to come forth and prove such things. I am unable to directly question someone like the Prophet like the people of his time did. So I am left with the dilemma of neither being able to accept the message of Islam nor being able to completely deny it...

Pascal's wager is really not all helpful for me, it has been brought up repeatedly in many threads several times over.

[khamosh21]

On 11/15/2020 at 9:31 AM, Nightclaw said:

Atheism is the disbelief in any theistic deity or deities, primarily Allah (what you would call God). The definition in itself is quite contradictory, as it proves the existence of Allah. If Allah was not present, there would be no reason to disbelieve and certainty about there being no creator is not even a discussion (just as every human being in their right mind knows for certain Naruto does not exist in the real world).

where'd you go brother? hope all is well.

a point about above, imagine if hindus made the above point, just replace Allah with Ganesh or anyone of their greater Gods..  the argument doesn't really hold.

[Ali bin Hussein]

3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

where'd you go brother? hope all is well.

a point about above, imagine if hindus made the above point, just replace Allah with Ganesh or anyone of their greater Gods..  the argument doesn't really hold.

This is about atheism. Creation Vs non creation.

Polytheism Vs monotheism only becomes important once you acknowledge a divine creator/ creators.

[Nightclaw]

On 1/4/2021 at 1:38 PM, khamosh21 said:

where'd you go brother? hope all is well.

a point about above, imagine if hindus made the above point, just replace Allah with Ganesh or anyone of their greater Gods..  the argument doesn't really hold.

All is certainly well, thank you for asking. I pray you are fine, as well. 

Well, you'd have to be a Hindu/Buddhist to make that point. An atheist cannot replace this with anything that is deistic lest they believe in what they do not believe in!

[Nightclaw]

On 12/24/2020 at 9:59 PM, khamosh21 said:

We do not know how the universe, creation, existence, whatever we and other things are in existence, and how they came about or what there was before.

Not knowing how does not negate why. I do not know how my great, great, great grandfather looked. Does this hold any bearing as to posing the "why" or any other similar question? No.

On 12/24/2020 at 9:59 PM, khamosh21 said:

I agree that infinite regression seems fairly illogical considering how we perceive and understand reality. However I would argue just as believers argue that God is beyond understanding or explanation at times, similarly the existence of the universe is also beyond our current understanding and ability to explain existence. We don’t understand how time, light, gravity, space, how any of this works… neither science or religion has any type of satisfactory answers.  

I don't think infinite regression is illogical considering it stems from logic itself. Again, stating that the ignorance that we have concerning "how" something works holds no bearing on why it works. This is not sufficient when trying to disprove - or better yet - disbelieve in Allah.

On 12/24/2020 at 9:59 PM, khamosh21 said:

Since we don’t know how existence came about, I am unable to jump to the conclusion that there is a necessary being, specially the way God is described in Islam. Yes there is some cause. Additionally for the sake of argument I’ll accept there is some type of necessary being… however this is only one part of the puzzle. For me the problem lies in how this one part of the puzzle fits with the rest of religion… what we are told about the purpose of life vs what life is like in reality. How God is described vs what has happened in history. Please note that I have read the Quran repeatedly since I was a kid, with translation, and I also have some basic grasp of Arabic grammar and vocab… despite being familiar with the Quran, it hasn’t quenched my questions/issues.

There is no jumping to a conclusion when the question of existence pops up. If everything that is created has a creator, then this applies universally. You cannot pick and choose what does and what does not. This is running in a fallacious circle. You wouldn't go so far as to say something illogical as a phone appeared into existence without anything prior to it. If you did, you would be going against the established laws of science. The cause has to be sentient by default and that shouldn't really need to be explained as for why. You can accept for the sake of argument, but it boils down to one thing. You've already agreed there is a cause. If you think this cause isn't sentient, then believing there was a cause serves you no purpose. It's the equivalent of believing that the universe came from nothingness.

As for the problems concerning these puzzles that you've mentioned what exactly is it? You have given things you do not necessarily like, but what exactly? 

If you were a Shi'a, no question you ask as a logical person will be answered sufficiently. The explanations by the Shi'i does not coincide with logic nor reality for the most part. Of course, they will come disagree, hurling insults, ad hominem, and pettiness will be thrown in multitudes, but it is the truth. I am familiar with the Qur'an and know the Arabic language and I still know nothing. Knowing the language is imperative, as translation will not be 100% accurate - if at all. It will not convey the same meaning. I could give you explanations from my understanding and from the understandings of those who know more than me for whatever questions you have, Allah willing.

On 12/24/2020 at 9:59 PM, khamosh21 said:

Since I have not seen the Prophet or anyone of that calibre, I have not met anyone that can actually directly contact the divine or have access to the unseen or knowledge the Prophet had… I find it extremely difficult to accept the word of “scholars”, historians, and books about the events that took place. I find it difficult to believe in the stories of saints and similar people, there is nothing like that I have experienced in my life. Additionally I see the pattern of ascribing supernatural abilities among practically every religion and sect till this day, with not a single person being able to come forth and prove such things. I am unable to directly question someone like the Prophet like the people of his time did. So I am left with the dilemma of neither being able to accept the message of Islam nor being able to completely deny it...

If you're taking this approach, you'd have to be consistent. If you're consistent, then it would be very hard for you to prove a lot of what you believe in. I've not seen Shaykh al-Albani, therefore he does/did not exist. I have not seen Shaykh ibn al-'Uthaymeen, therefore he did not exist. I have not seen Shaykh al-Arnaut, therefore he does not exist. You have not seen your ancestors, therefore they do not exist. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. Your point can go well with other things when you're trying to detest or disprove of something, but not here. It only backfires against you. Knowledge of the Unseen is only with Allah and whomsoever He wishes to bestow it upon, as per Qur'an (27:65, 6:59, 72:26-27 [exception is with whomsoever He chooses]). Anyone who knows the language of the Qur'an would tell you this. It's clear cut and doesn't need any interpretation other than what is obvious, such as Allah revealing it to His Messengers/Angels and people [in dreams].

Common Arabs don't even understand the Qur'an. You can speak the Arabic language, but this doesn't necessitate being knowledgeable in the Qur'an entirely. Knowing a few letters, words, sentences, and grammatical rules does not even come close to understanding the Qur'an, let alone the Arabic language. Relying on translation is problematic for various reasons.

If you're basing this off of experience judging by, and I quote, "there is nothing like that I have experienced in my life", then why are you looking for something objective to come to you? Experience is subjective, right? So why would you want it to come to you alone, personally? Everything you've said concerning proof for Allah is in the realm of objectivity in science, so why on earth would you want something subjective as proof now? You cannot have your cake and eat it, my brother. You may encounter a "saint" or an event as you've described or you may not. This is a personal experience that may change you, but an objective experience can do that and much more. 

As for questioning the Prophet, you are correct - you cannot. Nobody can at the time being. However, you can ask those of knowledge who can surely give you a sufficient answer. I am not from among them, but I do know them. If you'd like to ask them, I can give you their contact and they'd be more than happy to answer. If not, me and you can continue to discuss, but I think it's better if you ask someone who knows tenfold more than me.

On 12/24/2020 at 9:59 PM, khamosh21 said:

Pascal's wager is really not all helpful for me, it has been brought up repeatedly in many threads several times over.

Pascal's Wager is valid. Allah exists or He does not. You've already admitted to a cause. This cause, emitting and causing sentience, has to be sentient itself (again, no explanation is needed as to why). We're past Pascal's Wager because you've already agreed that Allah exists.

[khamosh21]

6 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Not knowing how does not negate why. I do not know how my great, great, great grandfather looked. Does this hold any bearing as to posing the "why" or any other similar question? No.

I don't think infinite regression is illogical considering it stems from logic itself. Again, stating that the ignorance that we have concerning "how" something works holds no bearing on why it works. This is not sufficient when trying to disprove - or better yet - disbelieve in Allah.

There is no jumping to a conclusion when the question of existence pops up. If everything that is created has a creator, then this applies universally. You cannot pick and choose what does and what does not. This is running in a fallacious circle. You wouldn't go so far as to say something illogical as a phone appeared into existence without anything prior to it. If you did, you would be going against the established laws of science. The cause has to be sentient by default and that shouldn't really need to be explained as for why. You can accept for the sake of argument, but it boils down to one thing. You've already agreed there is a cause. If you think this cause isn't sentient, then believing there was a cause serves you no purpose. It's the equivalent of believing that the universe came from nothingness.

As for the problems concerning these puzzles that you've mentioned what exactly is it? You have given things you do not necessarily like, but what exactly? 

If you were a Shi'a, no question you ask as a logical person will be answered sufficiently. The explanations by the Shi'i does not coincide with logic nor reality for the most part. Of course, they will come disagree, hurling insults, ad hominem, and pettiness will be thrown in multitudes, but it is the truth. I am familiar with the Qur'an and know the Arabic language and I still know nothing. Knowing the language is imperative, as translation will not be 100% accurate - if at all. It will not convey the same meaning. I could give you explanations from my understanding and from the understandings of those who know more than me for whatever questions you have, Allah willing.

If you're taking this approach, you'd have to be consistent. If you're consistent, then it would be very hard for you to prove a lot of what you believe in. I've not seen Shaykh al-Albani, therefore he does/did not exist. I have not seen Shaykh ibn al-'Uthaymeen, therefore he did not exist. I have not seen Shaykh al-Arnaut, therefore he does not exist. You have not seen your ancestors, therefore they do not exist. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. Your point can go well with other things when you're trying to detest or disprove of something, but not here. It only backfires against you. Knowledge of the Unseen is only with Allah and whomsoever He wishes to bestow it upon, as per Qur'an (27:65, 6:59, 72:26-27 [exception is with whomsoever He chooses]). Anyone who knows the language of the Qur'an would tell you this. It's clear cut and doesn't need any interpretation other than what is obvious, such as Allah revealing it to His Messengers/Angels and people [in dreams].

Common Arabs don't even understand the Qur'an. You can speak the Arabic language, but this doesn't necessitate being knowledgeable in the Qur'an entirely. Knowing a few letters, words, sentences, and grammatical rules does not even come close to understanding the Qur'an, let alone the Arabic language. Relying on translation is problematic for various reasons.

If you're basing this off of experience judging by, and I quote, "there is nothing like that I have experienced in my life", then why are you looking for something objective to come to you? Experience is subjective, right? So why would you want it to come to you alone, personally? Everything you've said concerning proof for Allah is in the realm of objectivity in science, so why on earth would you want something subjective as proof now? You cannot have your cake and eat it, my brother. You may encounter a "saint" or an event as you've described or you may not. This is a personal experience that may change you, but an objective experience can do that and much more. 

As for questioning the Prophet, you are correct - you cannot. Nobody can at the time being. However, you can ask those of knowledge who can surely give you a sufficient answer. I am not from among them, but I do know them. If you'd like to ask them, I can give you their contact and they'd be more than happy to answer. If not, me and you can continue to discuss, but I think it's better if you ask someone who knows tenfold more than me.

Pascal's Wager is valid. Allah exists or He does not. You've already admitted to a cause. This cause, emitting and causing sentience, has to be sentient itself (again, no explanation is needed as to why). We're past Pascal's Wager because you've already agreed that Allah exists.

feeling the rapport between us... will iA reply when i have time...

[Nightclaw]

4 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

feeling the rapport between us... will iA reply when i have time...

My dad taught me that I need to learn to learn before I learn and listen to understand before listening to respond. 

Take your time. No rush. I am here again, for the time being.

[GEU_40]

1 hour ago, Nightclaw said:

My dad taught me that I need to learn to learn before I learn and listen to understand before listening to respond. 

Take your time. No rush. I am here again, for the time being.

Your dad said words of great wisdom.

Btw it's good to see you back; despite our differences, it's refreshing to have people with such opposing views like yours on this platform.

[Nightclaw]

Just now, Sabrejet said:

Your dad said words of great wisdom.

Btw it's good to see you back; despite our differences, it's refreshing to have people with such opposing views like yours on this platform.

I agree. 

Thank you, brother. I am certainly glad to see from you, of all faces. 

[Mahenoor._]

On 12/24/2020 at 12:59 PM, khamosh21 said:

This is how I understand the above.

 

We do not know how the universe, creation, existence, whatever we and other things are in existence, and how they came about or what there was before.

Okay well, this is the question almost every logical head would raise. I've myself experienced this, even tho i come from muslim background but the reasom for some major questions in my head was my surrounding, as it is not deeply religious and i found all lf my answers myself because i do not even have a single lady with reasoning mind, with whom i can share my thoughts. (Okay im sry i said more abt mine, lets get back)

For this I'd recommend you to read NAHJUL BALAGHA. THIS IS HIGHLY RECOMMENDED. (For now don't ask me why, when and how, just do and let me know) Nahjul Balagha would be available in an application form on play store or app store, if you don't find it I'd be pleased to provide the link.

[Mahenoor._]

On 12/25/2020 at 12:29 AM, khamosh21 said:

 

Since we don’t know how existence came about, I am unable to jump to the conclusion that there is a necessary being, specially the way God is described in Islam. Yes there is some cause. Additionally for the sake of argument I’ll accept there is some type of necessary being… however this is only one part of the puzzle. For me the problem lies in how this one part of the puzzle fits with the rest of religion… what we are told about the purpose of life vs what life is like in reality. How God is described vs what has happened in history. Please note that I have read the Quran repeatedly since I was a kid, with translation, and I also have some basic grasp of Arabic grammar and vocab… despite being familiar with the Quran, it hasn’t quenched my questions/issues.

 

Let the existence and knowing Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) more, be in NAHJUL BALAGHA's hand, in your case.( if youd really give it a shot)

Okay well, nicely said, at least you believe that there has to be someone(unlike atheists). Well, first lemme know, what did you understood from Qur'an about the purpose of life. God has been described very genuinely and clearly if you fetch knowledge from the actual sources and not from random stuff(in my view). Additionally, do you really wanna have your answers? Because the way you described i felt like you read it in-air, because if you'd have read it with full attention and with the INTENTION to know THE TRUTH you'd be able to get those.(REMEMBER: INTENTION IS EVERYTHING)Also, you must make dua to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for guiding you, as you'll not be a believer unless and until He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wills.(#ifyouknowyouknow) MAKE DUAS AS MUCH AS UH CAN. AND IF UH SLIGHTLY,VERY LITTLE, BE IT A SIZE OF FIST OR EVEN ATOM, BELIEVE THAT AHLULBAYT(عليه السلام) HELPS THOSE WHO CALL TO 'EM.(if you ask me, for this I'm very confident)

Was nice to know your part. May Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide uh in the best way and as early as possible. Jazakallah Khair.

[theEndIsNear]

Honestly is this what’s left of Islam and Shia today , that they’re debating if God even exists , all the imams all the history that transcribed , Karbala, and this today is all that’s left ? These are the worst times to doubt , the end is near people if u aren’t ready now it’s over. 

[khamosh21]

On 1/6/2021 at 10:16 PM, Nightclaw said:

Not knowing how does not negate why. I do not know how my great, great, great grandfather looked. Does this hold any bearing as to posing the "why" or any other similar question? No.

Getting some free time to reply finally.

Sure... but this only brings us back to actually not knowing... regardless if we ask how or why.

Your example of your great great ancestors only works so far. We don't know how or why humans have come about... for example there is the theory of evolution, there is the theory of Adam and Eve... ultimately I just don't know. I don't see why I have to force myself to believe in something which is only being proved through deduction. I mean is there any proof of Adam and Eve existing? The only proof is believing in what the Prophet said.

It's contrary to my reasoning to trust in individuals (such as the Prophet.) considering how I find their recorded history to be unreliable.

On 1/6/2021 at 10:16 PM, Nightclaw said:

There is no jumping to a conclusion when the question of existence pops up. If everything that is created has a creator, then this applies universally. You cannot pick and choose what does and what does not. This is running in a fallacious circle. You wouldn't go so far as to say something illogical as a phone appeared into existence without anything prior to it. If you did, you would be going against the established laws of science. The cause has to be sentient by default and that shouldn't really need to be explained as for why. You can accept for the sake of argument, but it boils down to one thing. You've already agreed there is a cause. If you think this cause isn't sentient, then believing there was a cause serves you no purpose. It's the equivalent of believing that the universe came from nothingness.

As for the problems concerning these puzzles that you've mentioned what exactly is it? You have given things you do not necessarily like, but what exactly? 

If you were a Shi'a, no question you ask as a logical person will be answered sufficiently. The explanations by the Shi'i does not coincide with logic nor reality for the most part. Of course, they will come disagree, hurling insults, ad hominem, and pettiness will be thrown in multitudes, but it is the truth. I am familiar with the Qur'an and know the Arabic language and I still know nothing. Knowing the language is imperative, as translation will not be 100% accurate - if at all. It will not convey the same meaning. I could give you explanations from my understanding and from the understandings of those who know more than me for whatever questions you have, Allah willing.

For all we know the universe is not created, it is only a series of changes, and it only appears that way due to our limited understanding of it.

My whole point was that we don't know what the cause is, my position continues to remain in "I don't know". This sentient being that you refer to, seems to only be sentient and in direct communication with very few individuals, who I have no idea whether a sentient being contacted them or not.

The exact issue is that the purpose for which we were created (hopefully you can answer what that purpose is) does not reconcile with our lives (the way I see and understand it). I have no valid reason to believe in stories from the past considering there is no consistency in how God appears to act.

As for your comments about shias, I see the same problems among shia, as well as sunnis, and pretty much almost all religions. It's the same issues that appear in different forms.

On 1/6/2021 at 10:16 PM, Nightclaw said:

If you're taking this approach, you'd have to be consistent. If you're consistent, then it would be very hard for you to prove a lot of what you believe in. I've not seen Shaykh al-Albani, therefore he does/did not exist. I have not seen Shaykh ibn al-'Uthaymeen, therefore he did not exist. I have not seen Shaykh al-Arnaut, therefore he does not exist. You have not seen your ancestors, therefore they do not exist. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. Your point can go well with other things when you're trying to detest or disprove of something, but not here. It only backfires against you. Knowledge of the Unseen is only with Allah and whomsoever He wishes to bestow it upon, as per Qur'an (27:65, 6:59, 72:26-27 [exception is with whomsoever He chooses]). Anyone who knows the language of the Qur'an would tell you this. It's clear cut and doesn't need any interpretation other than what is obvious, such as Allah revealing it to His Messengers/Angels and people [in dreams].

I don't doubt these personalities existed or not, I doubt what is "said" about them. For example I doubt whether or not the Prophet rode a winged being and went on his night ascension. I doubt if he split the moon into 2 or practically any "supernatural" aspect of his life.

 

On 1/6/2021 at 10:16 PM, Nightclaw said:

If you're basing this off of experience judging by, and I quote, "there is nothing like that I have experienced in my life", then why are you looking for something objective to come to you? Experience is subjective, right? So why would you want it to come to you alone, personally? Everything you've said concerning proof for Allah is in the realm of objectivity in science, so why on earth would you want something subjective as proof now? You cannot have your cake and eat it, my brother. You may encounter a "saint" or an event as you've described or you may not. This is a personal experience that may change you, but an objective experience can do that and much more. 

As for questioning the Prophet, you are correct - you cannot. Nobody can at the time being. However, you can ask those of knowledge who can surely give you a sufficient answer. I am not from among them, but I do know them. If you'd like to ask them, I can give you their contact and they'd be more than happy to answer. If not, me and you can continue to discuss, but I think it's better if you ask someone who knows tenfold more than me.

For me it's not about subjectivity or objectivity. It is about having certainty through whichever means. I am unable to have certainty just through deductive proofs like most believers. I find religion manages to capitalize on our ignorance of things and fills it with the "unseen" and imaginary things to induce certain behaviors. I find Islamic laws to be great in managing society, however I find it hard to believe in the unseen punishments/rewards and things like angels etc.