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In the Name of God بسم الله

Matam/Self-beating/Mourning

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Zainuu

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Salamunalaikum,

What are the authentic accounts to support chest-beating from Qur'an and Hadith?  Note: My question is not specific to shia or sunni books. I just need authentic hadith whether from shia accounts or sunni. I also don't need a logical answer so a hadith or quranic verse is needed which verifies the act of chest-beating.

Also, If matam/chest-beating is allowed, then, to what extent? Is it allowed to mourn every person like we mourn Imam Husayn (عليه السلام)? For instance, if someone's family member dies and he is neither a martyr nor an oppressed but simply died due to sickness or normal reasons. Then, are we allowed to beat our chest and face and cry loudly while mourning him? 

I need a detailed answer for this. If the question is not clear then please let me know.

Note: This question is not concerned with qama or zanjeer and forms of matam/chest beating in which blood is spilled. 

Wassalam

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Guest Psychological Warfare

You can call it a Natural Law / Human Nature that with time the Thought of a loved one who left this transient world decreases. With every anniversary the day of passing away is less and less important and it becomes a common thing and after a while people don't even remember it . 

Anything that goes against this Natural law or Human Nature will be a Miracle. As a Miracle is not bound by Natural Laws/ Human Nature. Its above and beyond Natural Law or Human Nature. 

So, Aza for Son of Sayedda Zahra(sa) is a Living Miracle. It has been 1400 years but Every First of Muharram feels like it is happening right now.

We don't mourn our loved ones, even when they pass away we hold a Majlis in the name of Son of Sayedda Zahra(sa). Feeling of sadness/cry is natural for loved ones. We don't cry for them as we cry for the Son of Sayedda Zahra(sa). 

Yes we do feel the pain of separation from the loved ones as its Human Nature, but we understand that we are here and will return at some point. In case of a Tragic event, the emotions are naturally of a different level however still we don't do Matam for any loved ones. People might hit their chest or face as you might have seen in the event of a sudden loss in a tragic way, but this can't be compared to the Azadari for Son of Sayedda Zahra(sa). 

As a Layman I can tell you this is not Fiqh or Sharia law that deals with your Intellect. Love is not bound by the Intellect. So, don't compare the two its not logical. Intellect tells you and praises you to save your life, Love tells you to sacrifice your life. Love of Islam made them sacrifice their lives. Intellect would have dictated to find a way out and save life. 

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6 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

I didn't get you. Do you have any answer to this question?? 

There is a troll who posts here sometimes who always pitifully tries to defend every element of modern Shi'ism, he goes by the name Psychological Warfare.

I don't have an answer for this, but I don't personally believe that it is a great sunna that is one of the reasons why our madhhab has survived, maybe the people who hold that belief can answer you.

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As-Salamunalaikum, 

This is my first post made on this forum chat or any forum chat so please bare with me. I personally know practically close to nothing in relation to hadiths about chest-beating or many other things for that matter. I only know what I have learned from the Imams ((عليه السلام)) and their sayings. I however did watch a video by Dr. Ammar Nakshawani? (Forgive me if I spelt his name wrong) who had stated that is not wajib for anyone to beat their chest. However, people (including me and with no pride) beat their chest to remember the holy chest of Imam Hussain ((عليه السلام).), a chest that was kissed by the Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).A.), as well as a chest that was trampled upon by the hooves of horses of the Umayyads. May this answer suffice. Peace be upon you and your endeavors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQWLclR0vyA

Edited by Hameedeh
spelling; Dr. Ammar Nakshawani
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Nowhere in any of our hadith books is this stated. Only shortly after the killing of Imam Hussein (may Allah be pleased with him) did people adopt this act of beating themselves [which has a Persian/jahiliyya origin]. Allah says not to do this specifically, as per Surah Maryam (chapter 19), verse 48. This includes all forms. This act of beating oneself was not present at the time of Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) nor Islam for the first 70 years of Islam. Whatever was not there when the Prophet of Allah (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) died is not to be done today [in terms of religion].

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1 hour ago, Ali_Hussain said:

There is a troll who posts here sometimes who always pitifully tries to defend every element of modern Shi'ism, he goes by the name Psychological Warfare.

I don't have an answer for this, but I don't personally believe that it is a great sunna that is one of the reasons why our madhhab has survived, maybe the people who hold that belief can answer you.

 

2 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Salamunalaikum,

What are the authentic accounts to support chest-beating from Qur'an and Hadith?  Note: My question is not specific to shia or sunni books. I just need authentic hadith whether from shia accounts or sunni. I also don't need a logical answer so a hadith or quranic verse is needed which verifies the act of chest-beating.

Also, If matam/chest-beating is allowed, then, to what extent? Is it allowed to mourn every person like we mourn Imam Husayn (عليه السلام)? For instance, if someone's family member dies and he is neither a martyr nor an oppressed but simply died due to sickness or normal reasons. Then, are we allowed to beat our chest and face and cry loudly while mourning him? 

I need a detailed answer for this. If the question is not clear then please let me know.

Note: This question is not concerned with qama or zanjeer and forms of matam/chest beating in which blood is spilled. 

Wassalam

I believe it began with the Tawwabun movement. The guys who did not make it to Karbala either due to the crackdown ibn Ziyad in Kufa or through their own negligence. This group felt guilty and prepared themselves to avenge the blood of al-Husayn (a). In addition to that I’m of the understanding that the imams encouraged remember the event and learning in general. I doubt many people question these traditions because they become symbols of entity for the Shia so it becomes difficult to leave or change these things. Whether it is Haraam or not I cannot say, but the zanjeer stuff is just stupid. A friend of mine did not read into Shia Islam for 5 years because of this. I mean, how does your average Joe perceive a dude with his top off shouting Ya Husayn whilst lashing his back open. In fact it’s an insult for everything that Husayn (a) stood for. He didn’t want that outcome he was betrayed by the Kufans and forced to fight by Ibn Ziyad under the order of Yazid - may Allah curse them all.

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4 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Is it allowed to mourn every person like we mourn Imam Husayn (عليه السلام)? For instance, if someone's family member dies and he is neither a martyr nor an oppressed but simply died due to sickness or normal reasons. Then, are we allowed to beat our chest and face and cry loudly while mourning him?

No ofcourse not. Imam e Sadiq (عليه السلام) said this act would waste reward or all your deeds.

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16 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

No ofcourse not. Imam e Sadiq (عليه السلام) said this act would waste reward or all your deeds.

Thanks, 

But can you provide me the Hadith with reference to make it more clear? Actually, a lot of people among shias mix the way of mourning of Imam Husayn (عليه السلام) with their own commemoration on their family members. This is a sentimental issue. So, I need a hadith with reference to make the argument stronger.

Would really appreciate that.

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4 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

There is a troll who posts here sometimes who always pitifully tries to defend every element of modern Shi'ism

Quote

Troll: someone who leaves an intentionally annoying or offensive message on the internet, in order to upset someone or to get attention or cause trouble

According to the above definition, you are a troll for me, infact a "Veteran Troll". 

Your ikhlaq as well as your comments about brother "Psychological Warfare" are really annoying. It shows your upset personality. 

Edited by Cool
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11 minutes ago, Cool said:

Please refer to your Marj'a e Taqleed, if you have any.

I have asked many times but these questions are not answers by Marjae Taqleed because they don't come under the category of Law and Jurisprudence. It is a matter of aqeeda/Aqaid and this is the reason I asked it over here. Not to mention, I have put these questions in front of my Marjae Taqleed but never got an answer because of the above reasons.

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1 hour ago, Zainuu said:

Thanks, 

But can you provide me the Hadith with reference to make it more clear? Actually, a lot of people among shias mix the way of mourning of Imam Husayn (عليه السلام) with their own commemoration on their family members. This is a sentimental issue. So, I need a hadith with reference to make the argument stronger.

Would really appreciate that.

image.thumb.png.83d0a6ca3d1b89425e60f556fc3dc4d4.pngimage.png.020386788ab429519b3e853676caac39.png 

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10 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

image.thumb.png.83d0a6ca3d1b89425e60f556fc3dc4d4.pngimage.png.020386788ab429519b3e853676caac39.png 

Thanks brother for this account from Hayat ul Qulub. 

 

44 minutes ago, Nadeemsayyed110 said:

So, should I conclude from this and what brother @Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi shared that It's not right to weep and cry loudly and beat ourselves except for in remembrance of Imam Husayn (عليه السلام)??

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I know that the tradition of majlis and crying over imam Hussain (عليه السلام) was started by lady zainab(sa), it can also be seen as a sunnah from the prophet as he cried over his uncle, hazrath hamza upon his martydoom. I think the practice of hitting your chest or head was a tradition in arabs at that time and that's how it came to be, but that's just my guess.

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1 hour ago, Zainuu said:

have asked many times but these questions are not answers by Marjae Taqleed because they don't come under the category of Law and Jurisprudence

I think think your furnished reasons are not correct. You may ask from them the explanation of the following ahadith:

1.

جعفر بن محمد بن قولويه في (المزار) عن أبيه، عن سعد ابن عبد الله، عن أبي عبد الله الجاموراني، عن الحسن بن علي بن أبي حمزة، عن أبيه، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: سمعته يقول: إن البكاء والجزع مكروه للعبد في كل ما جزع ما خلا البكاء على الحسين بن علي عليهما السلام فإنه فيه مأجور.

2.

وعن محمد بن عبد الله بن جعفر الحميري، عن أبيه، عن علي بن محمد بن سالم، عن محمد بن خالد، عن عبد الله بن حماد، عن الاصم، عن مسمع بن عبد الملك قال: قال لي أبو عبد الله عليه السلام ـ في حديث: ـ أما تذكر ما صنع به يعني بالحسين عليه السلام؟ قلت: بلى، قال: أتجزع؟ قلت: أي والله، وأستعبر بذلك حتى يرى أهلي أثر ذلك علي، فأمتنع من الطعام حتى يستبين ذلك في وجهي، فقال: رحم الله دمعتك أما إنك من الذين يعدون من أهل الجزع لنا، والذين يفرحون لفرحنا، ويحزنون لحزننا، أما إنك سترى عند موتك حضور آبائي لك، ووصيتهم ملك الموت بك وما يلقونك به من البشارة أفضل، ولملك الموت أرق عليك وأشد رحمة لك من الام الشفيقة على ولدها (إلى أن قال:) ما بكى أحد رحمة لنا ولما لقينا إلا رحمه الله قبل أن تخرج الدمعة من عينه، فإذا سال دموعه على خده، فلو أن قطرة من دموعه سقطت في جهنم لاطفأت حرها حتى لا يوجد لها حر، وذكر حديثا طويلا يتضمن ثوابا جزيلا، يقول فيه: وما من عين بكت لنا إلا نعمت بالنظر إلى الكوثر، وسقيت منه مع من أحبنا

3.

محمد بن الحسن، في (المصباح) عن محمد بن إسماعيل، عن صالح بن عقبة عن أبيه، عن علقمة (1)، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام في حديث زيارة الحسين عليه السلام يوم عاشوراء من قرب وبعد ـ قال: ثم ليندب الحسين عليه السلام ويبكيه، ويأمر من في داره ممن لا يتقيه بالبكاء عليه، ويقيم في داره المصيبة باظهار الجزع عليه، وليعز بعضهم بعضا بمصابهم بالحسين عليه السلام، وأنا ضامن لهم إذا فعلوا ذلك على الله عزوجل جميع ذلك يعني ثواب ألفي حجة، وألفي عمرة، وألفي غزوة ـ قلت: أنت الضامن لهم ذلك والزعيم؟ قال: أنا الضامن والزعيم لمن فعل ذلك، قلت: وكيف يعزي بعضنا بعضا؟ قال: تقول: عظم الله أجورنا بمصابنا بالحسين عليه السلام، وجعلنا وإياكم من الطالبين بثأره مع وليه والإمام المهدي من آل محمد، وإن استطعت أن لا تنشر يومك في حاجة فافعل.

4.

الحسن بن محمد الطوسي، عن أبيه، عن المفيد، عن ابن قولويه، عن أبيه، عن سعد، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن أبي محمد الأنصاري، عن معاوية بن وهب، عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) ـ في حديث ـ قال: كل الجزع والبكاء مكروه سوى الجزع والبكاء على الحسين (عليه السلام).

5.

وفي (الخصال): عن محمد بن الحسن، عن الصفار، عن العباس بن معروف، عن محمد بن سهل البحراني (2)، يرفعه إلى أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) قال: البكاؤون خمسة: آدم، ويعقوب، ويوسف، وفاطمة بنت محمد (صلى الله عليه واله)، وعلي بن الحسين (عليه السلام)، فأما آدم فبكى على الجنة حتى صار في خديه أمثال الأودية، وأما يعقوب فبكى على يوسف حتى ذهب بصره، وحتى قيل له: (تالله تفتؤ تذكر يوسف حتى تكون حرضاً أو تكون من الهالكين) (3)، وأما يوسف فبكى على يعقوب حتى تأذى به أهل السجن فقالوا: إما أن تبكي الليل وتسكت بالنهار، وإما أن تبكي النهار وتسكت بالليل، فصالحهم على واحد منهما.
وأما فاطمة (عليها السلام) فبكت على رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) حتى تأذى بها أهل المدينة، فقالوا لها: قد آذيتنا بكثرة بكائك، وكانت تخرج إلى المقابر مقابر الشهداء فتبكي حتى تقضي حاجتها ثم تنصرف، وأما علي بن الحسين (عليه السلام) فبكى على الحسين (عليه السلام) عشرين سنة أو أربعين سنة، ما وضع بين يديه طعام إلا بكى حتى قال له مولى له: جعلت فداك، إني أخاف عليك أن تكون من الهالكين، قال: «إنما أشكو بثي وحزني إلى الله، وأعلم من الله مالا تعلمون» إني لم أذكر مصرع بني فاطمة إلا خنقتني لذلك عبرة.
وفي (الأمالي): عن الحسين بن أحمد بن إدريس، عن أبيه، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن العباس بن معروف، مثله.
وثمة روايات أخرى نقلنا بعضها في بحث مشروعية النياحة على الحسين (ع) وهي بالاضافة إلى ذلك معتضدة بالسيرة المتشرعة المتصلة بزمن المعصوم عليه السلام.

Specifically what is الجزع? 

Reference of above quoted traditions are as under:

1- الوسائل: باب 66 من أبواب المزار، ح 13 كامل الزيارات 100.
2- الوسائل: باب 66 من أبواب المزار، ح 16 كامل الزيارات 101.
3- الوسائل: باب 66 من أبواب المزار، ح20، مصباح المتهجد ص913.
4 – الوسائل: باب 87 من أبوب الدفن، ح9، آمالي الطوسي 1: 162.
5 - الوسائل: باب 87 من أبواب الدفن ح7، الخصال: 272، أمالي الصدوق 121/5.

Edited by Cool
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24 minutes ago, Cool said:

I think think your furnished reasons are not correct. You may ask from them the explanation of the following ahadith:

1.

جعفر بن محمد بن قولويه في (المزار) عن أبيه، عن سعد ابن عبد الله، عن أبي عبد الله الجاموراني، عن الحسن بن علي بن أبي حمزة، عن أبيه، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: سمعته يقول: إن البكاء والجزع مكروه للعبد في كل ما جزع ما خلا البكاء على الحسين بن علي عليهما السلام فإنه فيه مأجور.

2.

وعن محمد بن عبد الله بن جعفر الحميري، عن أبيه، عن علي بن محمد بن سالم، عن محمد بن خالد، عن عبد الله بن حماد، عن الاصم، عن مسمع بن عبد الملك قال: قال لي أبو عبد الله عليه السلام ـ في حديث: ـ أما تذكر ما صنع به يعني بالحسين عليه السلام؟ قلت: بلى، قال: أتجزع؟ قلت: أي والله، وأستعبر بذلك حتى يرى أهلي أثر ذلك علي، فأمتنع من الطعام حتى يستبين ذلك في وجهي، فقال: رحم الله دمعتك أما إنك من الذين يعدون من أهل الجزع لنا، والذين يفرحون لفرحنا، ويحزنون لحزننا، أما إنك سترى عند موتك حضور آبائي لك، ووصيتهم ملك الموت بك وما يلقونك به من البشارة أفضل، ولملك الموت أرق عليك وأشد رحمة لك من الام الشفيقة على ولدها (إلى أن قال:) ما بكى أحد رحمة لنا ولما لقينا إلا رحمه الله قبل أن تخرج الدمعة من عينه، فإذا سال دموعه على خده، فلو أن قطرة من دموعه سقطت في جهنم لاطفأت حرها حتى لا يوجد لها حر، وذكر حديثا طويلا يتضمن ثوابا جزيلا، يقول فيه: وما من عين بكت لنا إلا نعمت بالنظر إلى الكوثر، وسقيت منه مع من أحبنا

3.

محمد بن الحسن، في (المصباح) عن محمد بن إسماعيل، عن صالح بن عقبة عن أبيه، عن علقمة (1)، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام في حديث زيارة الحسين عليه السلام يوم عاشوراء من قرب وبعد ـ قال: ثم ليندب الحسين عليه السلام ويبكيه، ويأمر من في داره ممن لا يتقيه بالبكاء عليه، ويقيم في داره المصيبة باظهار الجزع عليه، وليعز بعضهم بعضا بمصابهم بالحسين عليه السلام، وأنا ضامن لهم إذا فعلوا ذلك على الله عزوجل جميع ذلك يعني ثواب ألفي حجة، وألفي عمرة، وألفي غزوة ـ قلت: أنت الضامن لهم ذلك والزعيم؟ قال: أنا الضامن والزعيم لمن فعل ذلك، قلت: وكيف يعزي بعضنا بعضا؟ قال: تقول: عظم الله أجورنا بمصابنا بالحسين عليه السلام، وجعلنا وإياكم من الطالبين بثأره مع وليه والإمام المهدي من آل محمد، وإن استطعت أن لا تنشر يومك في حاجة فافعل.

4.

الحسن بن محمد الطوسي، عن أبيه، عن المفيد، عن ابن قولويه، عن أبيه، عن سعد، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن أبي محمد الأنصاري، عن معاوية بن وهب، عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) ـ في حديث ـ قال: كل الجزع والبكاء مكروه سوى الجزع والبكاء على الحسين (عليه السلام).

5.

وفي (الخصال): عن محمد بن الحسن، عن الصفار، عن العباس بن معروف، عن محمد بن سهل البحراني (2)، يرفعه إلى أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) قال: البكاؤون خمسة: آدم، ويعقوب، ويوسف، وفاطمة بنت محمد (صلى الله عليه واله)، وعلي بن الحسين (عليه السلام)، فأما آدم فبكى على الجنة حتى صار في خديه أمثال الأودية، وأما يعقوب فبكى على يوسف حتى ذهب بصره، وحتى قيل له: (تالله تفتؤ تذكر يوسف حتى تكون حرضاً أو تكون من الهالكين) (3)، وأما يوسف فبكى على يعقوب حتى تأذى به أهل السجن فقالوا: إما أن تبكي الليل وتسكت بالنهار، وإما أن تبكي النهار وتسكت بالليل، فصالحهم على واحد منهما.
وأما فاطمة (عليها السلام) فبكت على رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) حتى تأذى بها أهل المدينة، فقالوا لها: قد آذيتنا بكثرة بكائك، وكانت تخرج إلى المقابر مقابر الشهداء فتبكي حتى تقضي حاجتها ثم تنصرف، وأما علي بن الحسين (عليه السلام) فبكى على الحسين (عليه السلام) عشرين سنة أو أربعين سنة، ما وضع بين يديه طعام إلا بكى حتى قال له مولى له: جعلت فداك، إني أخاف عليك أن تكون من الهالكين، قال: «إنما أشكو بثي وحزني إلى الله، وأعلم من الله مالا تعلمون» إني لم أذكر مصرع بني فاطمة إلا خنقتني لذلك عبرة.
وفي (الأمالي): عن الحسين بن أحمد بن إدريس، عن أبيه، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن العباس بن معروف، مثله.
وثمة روايات أخرى نقلنا بعضها في بحث مشروعية النياحة على الحسين (ع) وهي بالاضافة إلى ذلك معتضدة بالسيرة المتشرعة المتصلة بزمن المعصوم عليه السلام.

Specifically what is الجزع? 

Reference of above quoted traditions are as under:

1- الوسائل: باب 66 من أبواب المزار، ح 13 كامل الزيارات 100.
2- الوسائل: باب 66 من أبواب المزار، ح 16 كامل الزيارات 101.
3- الوسائل: باب 66 من أبواب المزار، ح20، مصباح المتهجد ص913.
4 – الوسائل: باب 87 من أبوب الدفن، ح9، آمالي الطوسي 1: 162.
5 - الوسائل: باب 87 من أبواب الدفن ح7، الخصال: 272، أمالي الصدوق 121/5.

Thankyou very much brother!   It was much needed. 

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5 hours ago, Zainuu said:

I have asked many times but these questions are not answers by Marjae Taqleed because they don't come under the category of Law and Jurisprudence. It is a matter of aqeeda/Aqaid and this is the reason I asked it over here. Not to mention, I have put these questions in front of my Marjae Taqleed but never got an answer because of the above reasons.

If it relates to an act, which is the case, then clearly it does come under fiqh. 

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4 hours ago, Cool said:

According to the above definition, you are a troll for me, infact a "Veteran Troll". 

Your ikhlaq as well as your comments about brother "Psychological Warfare" are really annoying. It shows your upset personality. 

Lol that is exactly what he does, hence the name, that is what he is intending to do. It is why he doesn't create an account, so that you can't block him and he can just bombard the threads that he doesn't like with the same old copy pasted nonsense.

Edited by Ali_Hussain
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5 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

There is obviously no one in their right mind wo will say that Crying for the Prophet (S) and the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) is a bida (innovation).  Both Sunnis and Shias are in agreement with this.  

The question is about B E A T I N G.....

I never asked about crying. I said 'crying with a louder voice and beating'.

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13 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

If it relates to an act, which is the case, then clearly it does come under fiqh. 

Agreed!

It comes under the rulings of Azadari... Azadari is mustahab but then "to what extent is it allowed", is the issue the scholars tackle. 

So it does come into fiqh.

Now, Ayatullah Sistani allows it and I think this might be the logic... (but don't take my word for it):

Matam is a ritual and rituals are allowed as long as they don't go against the ruling, like how sport games are a sort of rituals for health and enjoyment.

Now the issue would be: 'Does it cause serious bodily harm?' Then the answer is 'no' so it's allowed just like how boxing and wrestling are allowed as they do not cause serious bodily harm.

Though, it's understandable that people are uncomfortable with it. Some people are also uncomfortable with boxing too but that's okay. It's not a sunnah of the Aimmahs (عليه السلام), it's just a ritual. That's why it might be hard to find any hadith about it.

 It's okay if you don't like it but since it's allowed, one shouldn't degrade those who perform it.

I think the reason why doing 'matam' in case of the death of a loved one is haram is probably because it's often done out of despair which is haram in Islam but matam for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is done out for rememberance and to honor them.

@Zainuu Although... I did find this:

https://m.facebook.com/nt/screen/?params={"note_id"%3A10158195204801725}&path=%2Fnotes%2F&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.co.in%2F&_rdr

It's way too extreme and even I don't agree with everything in it but there might be a few poimts that might help you.

There is this too:

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.facebook.com/ShiaYouth.51214/posts/260255247456933%3Flocale2%3Dko_KR&ved=2ahUKEwjf8N6CgoHtAhWfUhUIHY4oDvgQFjAWegQIDBAB&usg=AOvVaw0Wpi8HU012-auoJl5tdCA-&cshid=1605322111803

(There is a bit in English somewhere in the middle)

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48 minutes ago, Justsomeone said:

Agreed!

It comes under the rulings of Azadari... Azadari is mustahab but then "to what extent is it allowed", is the issue the scholars tackle. 

So it does come into fiqh.

Now, Ayatullah Sistani allows it and I think this might be the logic... (but don't take my word for it):

Matam is a ritual and rituals are allowed as long as they don't go against the ruling, like how sport games are a sort of rituals for health and enjoyment.

Now the issue would be: 'Does it cause serious bodily harm?' Then the answer is 'no' so it's allowed just like how boxing and wrestling are allowed as they do not cause serious bodily harm.

Though, it's understandable that people are uncomfortable with it. Some people are also uncomfortable with boxing too but that's okay. It's not a sunnah of the Aimmahs (عليه السلام), it's just a ritual. That's why it might be hard to find any hadith about it.

 It's okay if you don't like it but since it's allowed, one shouldn't degrade those who perform it.

I think the reason why doing 'matam' in case of the death of a loved one is haram is probably because it's often done out of despair which is haram in Islam but matam for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is done out for rememberance and to honor them.

@Zainuu Although... I did find this:

https://m.facebook.com/nt/screen/?params={"note_id"%3A10158195204801725}&path=%2Fnotes%2F&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.co.in%2F&_rdr

It's way too extreme and even I don't agree with everything in it but there might be a few poimts that might help you.

There is this too:

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.facebook.com/ShiaYouth.51214/posts/260255247456933%3Flocale2%3Dko_KR&ved=2ahUKEwjf8N6CgoHtAhWfUhUIHY4oDvgQFjAWegQIDBAB&usg=AOvVaw0Wpi8HU012-auoJl5tdCA-&cshid=1605322111803

(There is a bit in English somewhere in the middle)

Salaam Brother, 

Yes I have read the first link. And I also don't agree with it. And absolutely agree that 'matam' cannot be proven from the Qur'an though it can be proven from the Hadith. Although, in this article they have tried like many speakers try to find a point but for me it is not a proof from qur'an. 

For example, 

Surah Nisa 148 : Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech unless (it be) by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

It is clear that this is not about matam but rather about cursing or gheebah or a kind of speech which is not acceptable generally. How is it for matam. 

Here is a commentary by Allama Tabatabai also from Tafsir al Mizan:

Quote

as-Sū’(ءْﻮﱡﺴﻟَا~=evil); evil speech – every talk which hurts the feeling of the person about who it is said; for example, cursing him and abusing him and accusing him of some bad characteristics, no matter whether those defects are really found in him or not. Allãh does not love that these things should be loudly announced and spoken. It is known that Allãh is free from love and hate, which is found in human beings and many animals; however, as our commandments and prohibitions naturally emanate from love and hate, Allãh metaphorically uses the words, love and hate, to describe His pleasure and displeasure, His commandment and prohibition. Therefore, the words, "Allãh does not love open utterance of evil inspeech", metaphorically show legislation covering both prohibitionand dislike. The phrase, "except (by) one to whom injustice has been done", is isolated exception. It means that it is alright for the one who is oppressed and to whom injustice has been done, to loudly speak evil about the opressor regarding the injustice done to him. This context shows that he is allowed to utter evil publicly to describe the injustice done to him and to expose the bad character of the oppressor which led him to that injustice. However, there is no indication here that he can speak loudly about other things which are not found in the oppressor or which have no connection with this praticular oppression.The exegetes have differed in explanation of "evil in speech";some say that it means cursing; others say that it is a description of his oppression and injustice, etc.; the fact is that all these things areincluded in this phrase which is unrestricted. Therefore, there is no reason why it should be restricted to certain types of evil talk.The words, "and Allãh is Hearing, Knowing", emphasize the prohibition understood from "Allãh does not love open utterance ofevil in speech". In other words, it is not allowed for the one to whom injustice has not been done to speak loudly evil words about someone because Allãh is the Hearing Who hears every word, and Knowing Who knows what one is doing.

So,  even this Tafsir says that it is about evil speech. My opinion is that it is not about matam. Because 'Matam' is not speech. What is your view? 

Edited by Zainuu
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As I said eàrlier, Scholars have different understanding of the word الجزع (which means grief or extreme grief, impatience, extreme impatience)

Only your marja e taqleed can guide you whether you can indulge in expressing extreme emotions of grief by doing matam (of any sort). 

كل الجزع والبكاء مكروه سوى الجزع والبكاء على الحسين (عليه السلام).

 

Edited by Cool
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On 11/13/2020 at 12:26 AM, Nightclaw said:

Nowhere in any of our hadith books is this stated. Only shortly after the killing of Imam Hussein (may Allah be pleased with him) did people adopt this act of beating themselves [which has a Persian/jahiliyya origin]. Allah says not to do this specifically, as per Surah Maryam (chapter 19), verse 48. This includes all forms. This act of beating oneself was not present at the time of Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) nor Islam for the first 70 years of Islam. Whatever was not there when the Prophet of Allah (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) died is not to be done today [in terms of religion].

No, A number of women including Aisha and Fatima (عليها السلام) beat their heads and chests after the death of Rasul Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

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11 hours ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

No, A number of women including Aisha and Fatima (عليها السلام) beat their heads and chests after the death of Rasul Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Out of ignorance, yes. The hadith you will quote [from Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal] quotes that 'Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) did it out of ignorance and her young age. 

 83084527_654061108668793_246904165610867

It is clear that she admits it is due to her being naïve, young and ignorant [that it was not allowed]. However, the mentioning of head and chest is not mentioned here. Only the face. 

Regardless, this is not something part of Islam nor is it allowed. Law of ignorance always applies - always. Anyone who claims this will need to have convincing evidence and not frail evidence that needs deduction by a landslide.

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Guest Psychological Warfare
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she admits it is due to her being naïve, young and ignorant 

Quote

'Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) did it out of ignorance and her young age. 

If this is true, you got bigger problems than you have bargained for - Question ALL Teaching/Traditions if you are truthful.

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