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In the Name of God بسم الله

Hijab - daughter doesn't want to wear anymore

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8 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

Excuse me, but are you saying a good Muslim is a war-mongering ignorant slave?

Not sure how you got that, I am saying everyone’s ideas of “peace” “justice” “equality” differ when it comes to definition/interpretation. The secularist will differ with the theocrat when it comes to rulership, etc. 

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If you can take her to an Islamic country, I recommend doing so, have her enjoy living in a community where Hijab is seen as a virtue not a sign of oppression she will begin to perceive the true value

Males and Females don't have 'equal rights' I don't know where you are getting this from, the Shariah deals with both genders differently. The ruling towards a male may at times be more strict then th

Yes it is sad to say the least. Of course there are satanic agendas all over the place, and extremes in all directions. It is sad and the whole baphomet androgenous thing is sad. The theory many

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1 minute ago, Allah Seeker said:

If you can prove it go ahead

 

It's a universally agreed upon rule of fiqh, in all madhabs. The walk between Safa and Marwa is a rukn. The burden of proof rather falls on you to prove why an established rukn, that's apparently not in the Quran, does not hold true.

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To me head veil in this day and age has become 99% of the time a form of ignorance, oppression and counter productive to islam, society, safety and reaching purity. That is from my own analysis of real life situation in muslim countries as well as analysis of islamic sources and history, 

I can go into details if anybody wants, and all my observations beyond stating historic facts that show that the prophet never proclaimed it was a must for the decent ladies of society. 

My thesis is that it causes the opposite effect of more dirty reality for most. Of course the women who get veiled for the right reason are excluded from this, but they are few in my opinion,

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3 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

It's a universally agreed upon rule of fiqh, in all madhabs. The walk between Safa and Marwa is a rukn. The burden of proof rather falls on you to prove why an established rukn, that's apparently not in the Quran, does not hold true.

I am not the one who challenged this (yet) :D

but if there is no proof for it, then I won't go with innovation, even if the whole world does. If you want to discuss it and prove it, then go ahead. I made no statements about it, as I have not looked at the materials yet concerning this topic. But it interests me very much, and thanks for bringing it up!

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That thread was painful.

Btw you'll never find the proof that it isn't wajib; I chose this specific verse for a reason. It's a rather potent verse when used against the "Hasbuna Kitabullah" crowd.

It's up to you to decide whether submission to Allah is more important, or your own personal values and world view.

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10 hours ago, Allah Seeker said:

Women treated like jahileya as second class citizens, who must do this and must do that, because they are women. I lived in many Muslim countries, and truthbe said: women are treated really bad and dominated in ugly ways. They are treated as objects and physical appearance matters more than anything. I agree with the concept of equality very much.

Salaam brother,

This isn't directly related to this topic, but I have noticed that the agenda (especially in the west - now moving towards the east) is the polar opposite of what you said, to "empower" women to essentially become men, and to extinguish the values that our beloved faith holds dear, like family values and faith.

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf mentions a narration by Ibn Mas'ood that there will be movements to corrupt the women. I remember Islamic Pulse quoted a feminist saying "the worst thing a woman can do is bring a child into this world..", an abhorrent statement by Islamic standards, which says that a woman who dies in childbirth is a martyr (shaheed). 

Please also read these below traditions (the brackets commentary are by Sheikh Saeed Rizvi, not me):

Quote

“O Salman, at that time, women will be rulers and the concubines will be consulted; (It may mean the government of the women and /or the domination of women over their husbands - so much so that the husbands will not, or cannot, ask them to remain within the limits of the Sheriat, leaving them free to go wherever they want in whatever clothes they like) and the children will sit upon 'Minber' (Pulpit) (It may mean that children will sit upon pulpit of the Prophet even though they cannot appreciate the sanctity of the 'Minber')...

“O Salman, and at that time males will satisfy their lust with males; and females will satisfy their lust with females; and minor boys will be mounted upon like women; and the males will liken themselves to females (i.e, will look like females); and females will look like males (The clean-shaved faces and long hair on one side, and pants and bell-bottoms on the other side are proof of the fulfilment of this forecast); and females will ride the saddles (i.e, horses, cycles, scooters and motor-cycles). So there will be Curse of Allah upon those women of my Ummat.

Biharu 'l-anwar, vol.6. pp. 305-309.

https://www.al-islam.org/day-of-judgement-sayyid-akhtar-rizvi/part-3-some-signs-day-resurrection

In another tradition (please read it if you have time):

Quote

وَ رَأَيْتَ الْغُلَامَ يُعْطِي مَا تُعْطِي الْمَرْأَةُ

And you will see a boy receive what a women receives

وَ رَأَيْتَ النِّسَاءَ يَتَّخِذْنَ الْمَجَالِسَ كَمَا يَتَّخِذُهَا الرِّجَالُ

And you will see women take to gatherings like men take (to gatherings)

 وَ رَأَيْتَ التَّأْنِيثَ فِي وُلْدِ الْعَبَّاسِ قَدْ ظَهَرَ وَ أَظْهَرُوا الْخِضَابَ وَ امْتَشَطُوا كَمَا تَمْتَشِطُ الْمَرْأَةُ لِزَوْجِهَا وَ أَعْطَوُا الرِّجَالَ الْأَمْوَالَ عَلَى فُرُوجِهِمْ وَ تُنُوفِسَ فِي الرَّجُلِ وَ تَغَايَرَ عَلَيْهِ الرِّجَالُ وَ كَانَ صَاحِبُ الْمَالِ أَعَزَّ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِ وَ كَانَ الرِّبَا ظَاهِراً لَا يُعَيَّرُ وَ كَانَ الزِّنَا تُمْتَدَحُ بِهِ النِّسَاءُ

And you will see feminine in the progeny of Al-`Abbaas becoming apparent, and dyeing becoming apparent and combing like the combing of women for their husbands and men are awarded money for their sexual organs, and compete with a man, and dissimilarities for men and people of money are cherished from the believers, and ribaa (usury) becoming apparent and it is not taunted, and zinaa (adultery) praised in women.

 وَ رَأَيْتَ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ وَ خَيْرَ بَيْتٍ مَنْ يُسَاعِدُ النِّسَاءَ عَلَى فِسْقِهِنَّ

And you will see many people and the best houses are those who help women commit fisq (immorality)

 وَ رَأَيْتَ الرَّجُلَ يَأْكُلُ مِنْ كَسْبِ امْرَأَتِهِ مِنَ الْفُجُورِ يَعْلَمُ ذَلِكَ وَ يُقِيمُ عَلَيْهِ

 And you will see a man eat from the earnings of his wife, (which she got) from immoral actions and him knowing it, and being okay with it.

 وَ رَأَيْتَ الْمَرْأَةَ تَقْهَرُ زَوْجَهَا وَ تَعْمَلُ مَا لَا يَشْتَهِي وَ تُنْفِقُ عَلَى زَوْجِهَا

And you will see women overcome her husband and she works for what he does not desire and she spends for husband

 وَ رَأَيْتَ النِّسَاءَ يَبْذُلْنَ أَنْفُسَهُنَّ لِأَهْلِ الْكُفْرِ

And you will see the women give themselves to the people of kufr

 وَ رَأَيْتَ النِّسَاءَ وَ قَدْ غَلَبْنَ عَلَى الْمُلْكِ وَ غَلَبْنَ عَلَى كُلِّ أَمْرٍ لَا يُؤْتَى إِلَّا مَا لَهُنَّ فِيهِ هَوًى

 And you will see the women become powerful in the land, and have power over all the affairs and does not come except what she desires

Source:

1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 8, pg. 36 – 42, hadeeth # 7

Grading:

1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 25, pg. 91

Source: http://www.revivingalislam.com/2011/04/signs-of-day-of-judgment.html

Please also see the below short video:

This is a brilliant video on propaganda in movies relating to feminism:

Islamic pulse has made video series on LGBTQ and feminism:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSaaFm9_7F_IiDdYykXU5NshjJzQHOmn3

@F.M 

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4 hours ago, Allah Seeker said:

really? I thought that women who don't wear head veil get punised. Or are you saying it is technically allowed in Iran to strip down , while leaving the hat on? 

No I mean your reasoning is that the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) did not specifically say that a country must require its citizens to wear the hijab. However the same can be said for wearing clothes. 

The point is that women didn't walk around bare headed in that society (similarly we should follow the same in our societies) 

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47 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

No I mean your reasoning is that the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) did not specifically say that a country must require its citizens to wear the hijab. However the same can be said for wearing clothes. 

The point is that women didn't walk around bare headed in that society (similarly we should follow the same in our societies) 

From what I've read, the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) never forced women in societies he overlooked to wear Hijab. As for clothing, It's against the human dignity to remain naked in a populous environment unless you're some kind of deviant(naturist,hippie,etc). It's also in human instinct. When Adam(عليه السلام) fell down from heaven, He was naked and the first thing He did was cover himself up with the earth.

As for your logic, that was just the culture of that time as I'm sure Hinda probably left the home covered as it was a Elitist/Classist thing to do. The same was done by European Princesses/Queens/Nobles. By that same logic, we should all be wearing thwabs right now instead of current clothing and it should be the law to wear a thwab.

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2 hours ago, El Cid said:

From what I've read, the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) never forced women in societies he overlooked to wear Hijab. As for clothing, It's against the human dignity to remain naked in a populous environment unless you're some kind of deviant(naturist,hippie,etc). It's also in human instinct. When Adam(عليه السلام) fell down from heaven, He was naked and the first thing He did was cover himself up with the earth.

As for your logic, that was just the culture of that time as I'm sure Hinda probably left the home covered as it was a Elitist/Classist thing to do. The same was done by European Princesses/Queens/Nobles. By that same logic, we should all be wearing thwabs right now instead of current clothing and it should be the law to wear a thwab.

The fact is that the 'awrah of the woman has been defined and described. The argument of the brother is not about what should or shouldn't be covered, rather that it was never a requirement in public.

What islam prescribes is the covering of the 'awrah rather than the nature of the cover. Whether it's a thawb, a jeans or anything else doesn't matter if it fulfills the islamic guidelines.

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

The fact is that the 'awrah of the woman has been defined and described. The argument of the brother is not about what should or shouldn't be covered, rather that it was never a requirement in public.

What islam prescribes is the covering of the 'awrah rather than the nature of the cover. Whether it's a thawb, a jeans or anything else doesn't matter if it fulfills the islamic guidelines.

I was only referring to this: The point is that women didn't walk around bare headed in that society (similarly we should follow the same in our societies) 

As we're talking about laws here. The nature of women covering their heads was cultural before Islam.

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@313_Waiter thank you for the video. I have watched the aaron russo one. I believe what he says is precise and the truth.

It's so sad the amount of muslim sisters calling themselves feminists, being ignorant of the true ideology.

It has spread like cancer and will not stop until day of judgement.

They see it as a battle against men. When in reality it's a battle of your inner self.

I pray that the momina muslim sisters stay strong in their faith and that they grow as strong woman, mother, sister, wife, daughter, and that they take as role models our woman from ahlul bayt (عليه السلام)..

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10 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

That thread was painful.

Btw you'll never find the proof that it isn't wajib; I chose this specific verse for a reason. It's a rather potent verse when used against the "Hasbuna Kitabullah" crowd.

It's up to you to decide whether submission to Allah is more important, or your own personal values and world view.

You are the one who is not abiding by the sunnah.

Prophet did not proclaim to public it is compulsory. 

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2 minutes ago, Allah Seeker said:

You are the one who is not abiding by the sunnah.

Prophet did not proclaim to public it is compulsory. 

So Bibi Zainab ((عليه السلام)) and the ladies were being melodramatic (nauzubillah) in Yazid's court when they appeared without their head veil?

Keep looking into that Safa Marwa ayat and see where it leads you.

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10 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Salaam brother,

This isn't directly related to this topic, but I have noticed that the agenda (especially in the west - now moving towards the east) is the polar opposite of what you said, to "empower" women to essentially become men, and to extinguish the values that our beloved faith holds dear, like family values and faith.

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf mentions a narration by Ibn Mas'ood that there will be movements to corrupt the women. I remember Islamic Pulse quoted a feminist saying "the worst thing a woman can do is bring a child into this world..", an abhorrent statement by Islamic standards, which says that a woman who dies in childbirth is a martyr (shaheed). 

Please also read these below traditions (the brackets commentary are by Sheikh Saeed Rizvi, not me):

In another tradition (please read it if you have time):

Please also see the below short video:

This is a brilliant video on propaganda in movies relating to feminism:

Islamic pulse has made video series on LGBTQ and feminism:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSaaFm9_7F_IiDdYykXU5NshjJzQHOmn3

@F.M 

Yes it is sad to say the least.

Of course there are satanic agendas all over the place, and extremes in all directions. It is sad and the whole baphomet androgenous thing is sad. The theory many of them use is that God is sexless, and Adam was originally both male and female before eve was made from him. Some Jews hold this view, and i believe that this is the logic behind those peoples move in that direction. To them they form the excuse of wanting to go back to unity of God and oneness of God, beyond duality. At the same time we have many people in power wanting to control reproduction of the world population, with the end goal being a society where nobody can reproduce unless they have permission, as well as controlling the outcome via genetic engineering. They want to detach sex from reproduction and only have it for fun, while promoting abortion and things like condoms and anti-baby pills. There are many dark agendas, and bill Gates for instance already talked about using vaccines to decrease populations, as well as having a device implanted into women that can remotely control her fertility. The term vaccination is from the root word based on the name cow, as it was originally used for livestock. We are just livestock for them, and hezbolshaytan will fail in sha Allah, but due to prevelance of ignorance it might take lots of drama till we get there. I hope for the best, and that the battle is won soon and easily in sha Alah, by the good sign, as I am tired of seeing the bad guys win. 

Thanks 

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6 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

No I mean your reasoning is that the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) did not specifically say that a country must require its citizens to wear the hijab. However the same can be said for wearing clothes. 

The point is that women didn't walk around bare headed in that society (similarly we should follow the same in our societies) 

actually there is evidence from the quran that nakedness is not allowed  and the term chest is also there. The same goes for stories from the hadiths. 

I am not talking about specific modern country, I am talking about the umah, as the prophet did not make rules based on geographic location. He did not say you may eat pork in egypt, but once you cross to sham, no pork please! He said no pork to his ummah. Allah said no pork to ummah. Directly.

The prophet did not say "veil is fard in my ummah". Therefore anybody who does is innovating and out of the bounds of the sunnah. Its really simple 

And women , such as slave women used to be bare headed a lot, and again no evidence of the prophet objecting 

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55 minutes ago, starlight said:

Has the great hijab debate reached a conclusion yet? Can we email the final verdict to Ayatullah Sistani(عليه السلام) now so he can update his risala?

Yes ask him this:

Is it allowed to tell the public that something is compulsory when the prophet and imam ali never did?

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3 hours ago, El Cid said:

I was only referring to this: The point is that women didn't walk around bare headed in that society (similarly we should follow the same in our societies) 

As we're talking about laws here. The nature of women covering their heads was cultural before Islam.

Yes and this being part of a woman's awrah was confirmed by the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and his progeny (عليه السلام)

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Just now, Mahdavist said:

So what was the dress code during that time? Please provide references :)

Not now , I am too tired for getting you references for this. If you have them handy then do share.  But I remember there was pretty much everything from naked people doing tawaf to probably covered women.

What I care about now is to see who helps me defend the sunah of the prophet , and stands clearly to expose innovations that have some serious implications on all of us.

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9 hours ago, Allah Seeker said:

Not now , I am too tired for getting you references for this. If you have them handy then do share.  But I remember there was pretty much everything from naked people doing tawaf to probably covered women.

What I care about now is to see who helps me defend the sunah of the prophet , and stands clearly to expose innovations that have some serious implications on all of us.

You're 'defending the sunnah' without any references?

Sounds a bit self contradictory. I will wait for your evidence. 

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

You're 'defending the sunnah' without any references?

Sounds a bit self contradictory. I will wait for your evidence. 

im not the one saying that it is sunah to issue this public verdict. The proof needs to come from those who do so.

Passive people don't need to prove why they are passive. I dont need to prove that an innovation or bidaa is an invention, other than pointing out the lack of evidence from the innovators. 

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I dont understand why active members on shiachat have problems comprehending basics:

#1 - Prophet mohamed did not say publically it is haram

#2 - Therefore doing so is bidaa/innovation.

 

The only way I can be proved wrong is if anybody can show the above point #1 is wrong. Until then my proof/hujjah is the lack of evidence that #1 is wrong. Until then I won this argument! 

Contact your 'ayatulahs', your scholars your 'hujat islam', your elders, and let them prove through a single narration that claiming head veil being fard in public has been said by the prophet from the pulpit. 

Or let them tell you in writing that it is OK to issue public tahreem (I.e stating something as haram) that the prophet did not do.

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Fazeel ibn Yassar in Volume 5 of the book “Furu eK afi” said: I asked Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام), are the elbows of a woman part of her beauty as is mentioned in the Quran: Women do not display their beauty except for their husbands? Imam (عليه السلام) replied: Yes, all parts of the body of a woman except face and hands are counted as her beauty (which should be covered).


In Volume 4 of the book “Wasael ul Shia” it is narrated from Imam Sadiq (as): As a girl reaches the age of adulthood, fasting and Hijab become compulsory (wajib) for her.


It is narrated from the Prophet of Islam ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) in the Volume 100 of Behar ul Anwaa about the retribution on the Day of Judgment for women who sinned: …But for a woman who was hanging by her hair for the reason that she did not cover her hair when she should have.

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3 minutes ago, starlight said:

Fazeel ibn Yassar in Volume 5 of the book “Furu eK afi” said: I asked Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام), are the elbows of a woman part of her beauty as is mentioned in the Quran: Women do not display their beauty except for their husbands? Imam (عليه السلام) replied: Yes, all parts of the body of a woman except face and hands are counted as her beauty (which should be covered).


In Volume 4 of the book “Wasael ul Shia” it is narrated from Imam Sadiq (as): As a girl reaches the age of adulthood, fasting and Hijab become compulsory (wajib) for her.


It is narrated from the Prophet of Islam ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) in the Volume 100 of Behar ul Anwaa about the retribution on the Day of Judgment for women who sinned: …But for a woman who was hanging by her hair for the reason that she did not cover her hair when she should have.


 


 

Again, those hadith don't say that it's mandatory for all women to cover up in terms of Societal law. All women, regardless of faith. It only instructs Muslimahs to cover up to protect themselves from punishment in the Hereafter and world. So it doesn't require a facepalm emoji for br. Seeker nor it answers his question.

Try again.

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13 minutes ago, starlight said:

narrated from the Prophet of Islam ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) in the Volume 100 of Behar ul Anwaa about the retribution on the Day of Judgment for women who sinned: …But for a woman who was hanging by her hair for the reason that she did not cover her hair when she should have.

How can this be true if the women have not been ordered to do so?

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On 12/7/2020 at 2:15 AM, El Cid said:

Again, those hadith don't say that it's mandatory for all women to cover up in terms of Societal law.

What else do you need for it to be mandatory. Quran uses the term Jilbab and khimar. But I guess nothing is going to be good enough for you.  

To each their own. 

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14 minutes ago, starlight said:

Volume 4 of the book “Wasael ul Shia” it is narrated from Imam Sadiq (as): As a girl reaches the age of adulthood, fasting and Hijab become compulsory (wajib) for her.

so why didn't his grandfather the prophet tell people that from the pulpit at least once in his life? Why? Can you answer this? Or is it "who cares about the sunnah?"

The faces of those who reject the sunnah is darkened for all eternity 

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On 12/7/2020 at 2:24 AM, starlight said:

What else do you need for it to be mandatory. Quran uses the term Jilbab and khimar. But I guess nothing is going to be good enough for you.  

To each their own. 

does it use term head or hair? Assumptions mixed with not caring about the sunnah

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1 hour ago, Allah Seeker said:

The prophet came with the duty of warning.

Why did he not warn the women of his nation about the importance of covering their hair? Answer this!

Haj is obligatory at least once in a Muslim's lifetime. Haj without sa'i between Safa and Marwa is completely void.

Sa'i is not wajib according to the Quranic verse mentioning it. See where I'm going with this? Why is a wajib rukn of haj not explicitly mentioned as wajib in the Quran?

I'd recommend that you look into this issue first before making any more posts defending this misguided idea and firing takfir and damnation posts on the readers here.

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On 12/7/2020 at 2:24 AM, starlight said:

What else do you need for it to be mandatory. Quran uses the term Jilbab and khimar. But I guess nothing is going to be good enough for you.  

To each their own. 

A denier is a denier. 

Difficult is not to understand but to accept for people. 

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