Can we disagree with the "Ulil Amr"?

[MaisumAli]

While reading an article online discussing the verse 4:59

'O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.'

 

More specifically:

And if you disagree over anything

 

They said that this is contridictory to what the Shias say, that the Imams(عليه السلام) are the 'Ulil Amr' and are divinely appointed, they proceeded by saying that if The Imams(عليه السلام) were really Divinely appointed then why would Allah allow us to argue and disagree with them, and they further stated that The Ulil Amr do not have "complete authority" because Allah doesn't say "Ati"(Obey) the Ulil Amr, and instead connects it with an "and", which means that complete obedience is not required, as per the ayah:

 

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you."

 

Otherwise it would look like this:

 

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and obey those in authority among you. 

 

Your thoughts on this?

[Cool]

7 hours ago, MaisumAli said:

They said that this is contridictory to what the Shias say, that the Imams(عليه السلام) are the 'Ulil Amr' and are divinely appointed

Imagine, how strange would be that scenario where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is commanding us to obey the "Ulil Amr" but neither Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) nor the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) introducing the Ulil Amr.

7 hours ago, MaisumAli said:

they proceeded by saying that if The Imams(عليه السلام) were really Divinely appointed then why would Allah allow us to argue and disagree with them

Again, Imagine how strange would be that where you have a clear command of obedience in first place, then how could it be the case that you are given the right to argue or even dispute with the Ulil Amr? 

7 hours ago, MaisumAli said:

and they further stated that The Ulil Amr do not have "complete authority" because Allah doesn't say "Ati"(Obey) the Ulil Amr, and instead connects it with an "and", which means that complete obedience is not required, as per the ayah:

 

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you."

A better way to understand this is by understanding the fact that the obedience of "Ulil Amr" is the continuation & extension of the obedience of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

The hadith of Ghadir is the hujjah for this understanding. 

7 hours ago, MaisumAli said:

Otherwise it would look like this:

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and obey those in authority among you. 

 

"And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."

You see, if "Ati" would be present before Ulil Amr, the following facts would be deducted:

1. Obedience of Ulil Amr is not the extension of the obedience of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)., In that case there would be no hadith like "man kunto mowla ....."

2. It becomes clear that since we have to refer back to the command of Allah & His Apostle, therefore the obedience of Ulil Amr is not complete. We would have the right to argue or dispute with them. So adding just one "obey" before the "Ulil Amr" would have certified what they are claiming.

3. There is another verse which mentions Ulil Amr & referring to them:

وَإِذَا جَاءهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِّنَ الأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُواْ بِهِ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَى أُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ وَلَوْلاَ فَضْلُ اللّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لاَتَّبَعْتُمُ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً

4:83

You can see the same word رَدُّوهُ is present here as in verse 4:59

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلاً

4:59

Conclusion:

The obedience of "Ulil Amr" is the extension of the obedience of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). We don't have the right to argue or dispute with them. The dispute (تَنَازَعْتُمْ) mentioned in 4:59 is not referring to the dispute with Ulil Amr as the clear command of obeying them is present in advance. The dispute mentioned in 4:59 is referring only to the matters related to the common people. 

 

[Guest Haydar]

On 11/9/2020 at 5:15 PM, MaisumAli said:

While reading an article online discussing the verse 4:59

'O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.'

 

More specifically:

And if you disagree over anything

 

They said that this is contridictory to what the Shias say, that the Imams(عليه السلام) are the 'Ulil Amr' and are divinely appointed, they proceeded by saying that if The Imams(عليه السلام) were really Divinely appointed then why would Allah allow us to argue and disagree with them, and they further stated that The Ulil Amr do not have "complete authority" because Allah doesn't say "Ati"(Obey) the Ulil Amr, and instead connects it with an "and", which means that complete obedience is not required, as per the ayah:

 

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you."

 

Otherwise it would look like this:

 

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and obey those in authority among you. 

 

Your thoughts on this?

Us Zaydis believe that those in authority are fallible hence why they should be referred back to the Quran and Sunna. You are correct why would Allah ask us to refer back to the Quran and Sunna if the ulul al amr were infallible. This is one of the many problems of Twelver theology.

[MaisumAli]

Thanks for the input!

I understand what your saying, but this part caught my eye:

4 hours ago, Cool said:

The obedience of "Ulil Amr" is the extension of the obedience of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). We don't have the right to argue or dispute with them. The dispute (تَنَازَعْتُمْ) mentioned in 4:59 is not referring to the dispute with Ulil Amr as the clear command of obeying them is present in advance. The dispute mentioned in 4:59 is referring only to the matters related to the common people. 

More specifically:

"The dispute mentioned in 4:59 is referring only to the matters related to the common people."

 

This is the first time I have heard this, are there any traditions or Tafsirs backing this up? Also if this was the case wouldn't the verse say:

 

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger and the Ulil Amr, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."

 

Why not refer it back to the Ulil Amr, also in this day and age, how do we refer something back to the Ulil Amr?

[Cool]

44 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

More specifically:

"The dispute mentioned in 4:59 is referring only to the matters related to the common people."

This is the first time I have heard this, are there any traditions or Tafsirs backing this up?

There infact are many traditions which mentions Imams as Ulil Amr and that their obedience is made obligatory by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Hence we have no right at all to dispute with them. 

44 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

Why not refer it back to the Ulil Amr, also in this day and age, how do we refer something back to the Ulil Amr?

Important question, I will respond to it soon. (Guests arrived)

[MaisumAli]

18 minutes ago, Cool said:

There infact are many traditions which mentions Imams as Ulil Amr and that their obedience is made obligatory by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Hence we have no right at all to dispute with them. 

Yes, I know there are many traditions stating they the Ulil Amr are the Imams(عليه السلام), but my question was regarding who is being addressed in this part of the verse:

 

"And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.'"

 

Is it The Imams(عليه السلام), or is it the common people as you have stated? And why do you believe that this part refers to common people and not The Ulil Amr and common people together?

 

23 minutes ago, Cool said:

Important question, I will respond to it soon. (Guests arrived)

Sure...Take your time my friend

[Cool]

2 hours ago, MaisumAli said:

but my question was regarding who is being addressed in this part of the verse:

"And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.'"

Is it The Imams(عليه السلام), or is it the common people as you have stated?

The sphere of "Ya ayyuhallthina aamanu" is vast. When it comes to obeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), it even includes Prophet along with Imams & common believers. When it comes to obeying Prophet, it includes Imams & common believers. When it comes to obeying Ulil Amr (means Imam of time), it includes Imam (if any one living with Imam of time) and common believers. 

Example of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is present, Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) obeyed him. Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) obeyed Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) etc. 

3 hours ago, MaisumAli said:

Why not refer it back to the Ulil Amr, also in this day and age, how do we refer something back to the Ulil Amr?

Back to your previous question. 

Why is the command to refer back to Allah & His Apostle? 

Because "everything" has been made clear by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & from him the knowledge reached to Imam of time.

وَلَقَدْ جِئْنَاهُم بِكِتَابٍ فَصَّلْنَاهُ عَلَى عِلْمٍ هُدًى وَرَحْمَةً لِّقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ

7:52

وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ فَصَّلْنَاهُ تَفْصِيلاً

17:12

كِتَابٌ فُصِّلَتْ آيَاتُهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لِّقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ

41:3

And since "everything" is made clear by Allah & His Apostle so they becomes the main source. Imams would not mention a thing from their own except from Quran & Sunnah. That's why the Sunnah of Imams is also of importance for us. In other words, actions or decisions of Imam would be the same if Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) would be there in his place. 

أنا حرب لمن حاربكم ، وسلم لمن سالمكم

Why we cannot dispute with Ulil Amr?

Because if you refer back to Allah and Prophet after disputing with Imams, you will find that both are commanding you to obey the Imam.

You see, we obey the Imam because of the command of Allah & His Apostle. So why should we disobey the Imam & refer back to Allah & Apostle? Will we find anything else except this:

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ

&

من كنت مولا فهذا على مولا

 

Who are the addressee of فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ ? 

Its the common people, every believer, excluding Imam of the time. Because of the reasons furnished above. 

3 hours ago, MaisumAli said:

also in this day and age, how do we refer something back to the Ulil Amr?

By referring back to the "Muhaddithoon". 

 

[MaisumAli]

51 minutes ago, Cool said:

The sphere of "Ya ayyuhallthina aamanu" is vast. When it comes to obeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), it even includes Prophet along with Imams & common believers. When it comes to obeying Prophet, it includes Imams & common believers. When it comes to obeying Ulil Amr (means Imam of time), it includes Imam (if any one living with Imam of time) and common believers. 

Example of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is present, Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) obeyed him. Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) obeyed Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) etc. 

Let me clarify further, when Allas(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says: "And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."

More specifically: And if YOU disagree over anything

 

Is "You" in reference to just the believers, or is it in reference to the Ulil Amr and the Believers?

 

51 minutes ago, Cool said:

By referring back to the "Muhaddithoon". 

How so?

Edited November 10, 2020 by MaisumAli

[Cool]

4 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

More specifically: And if YOU disagree over anything

 Ulil Amr has every right to disagree with anyone. No one has the right to disagree with the Ulil Amr. 

I am presenting example from Quran where believers disputed on command of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

وَلَقَدْ صَدَقَكُمُ اللّهُ وَعْدَهُ إِذْ تَحُسُّونَهُم بِإِذْنِهِ حَتَّى إِذَا فَشِلْتُمْ وَتَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي الأَمْرِ وَعَصَيْتُم مِّن بَعْدِ مَا أَرَاكُم مَّا تُحِبُّونَ مِنكُم مَّن يُرِيدُ الدُّنْيَا وَمِنكُم مَّن يُرِيدُ الآخِرَةَ ثُمَّ صَرَفَكُمْ عَنْهُمْ لِيَبْتَلِيَكُمْ وَلَقَدْ عَفَا عَنكُمْ وَاللّهُ ذُو فَضْلٍ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ

3:152

Please note  وَتَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي الأَمْرِ

إِذْ يُرِيكَهُمُ اللّهُ فِي مَنَامِكَ قَلِيلاً وَلَوْ أَرَاكَهُمْ كَثِيرًا لَّفَشِلْتُمْ وَلَتَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي الأَمْرِ وَلَـكِنَّ اللّهَ سَلَّمَ إِنَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِذَاتِ الصُّدُورِ

8:43 

Please note وَلَتَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي الأَمْرِ

The first verse is with reference to what happened in Uhad when a group of believers disputed. Few of them stayed on their position as commanded by Prophet & most of them went on to grab the "ghanimah". 

The second verse is mentioning the case of Badr.

Please refer to the tafseer for knowing more about تَنَازَعْتُمْ  in both these cases.

[MaisumAli]

11 hours ago, Guest Haydar said:

Us Zaydis believe that those in authority are fallible hence why they should be referred back to the Quran and Sunna. You are correct why would Allah ask us to refer back to the Quran and Sunna if the ulul al amr were infallible. This is one of the many problems of Twelver theology.
 

 

Thanks for your input!

However you stated that there are many problems with Twelver Theology, could you list a couple of those problems if you don't mind? Also don't Zaydis believe the first 4 Imams are Infallible? If yes, then why aren't they the Ulil Amr? Also who is the Ulil Amr you refer back to?

 

Lastly, are you the same person in the earlier thread about the attack on Fatima (sa)? Because there is another guest with the same name

[Cool]

@MaisumAli, Allama Tabatai a.r mentioned the same in his tafsir Al-Mizan & I quote him:

Quote

We cannot suppose that the believers would quarrel with those who are vested with authority when they are obligated to obey them. So the quarrel must be among the believers themselves, and it cannot be in matters of orders issued by those vested with authority, rather it has to be about the identification of Allah's command in a particular affair, as may be inferred from the next verse which condemns those who resort to judgement of taghut, preferring it to the judgement of Allah and His Messenger.

I am however, not agree with him where he said that "the quarrel or dispute cannot be in matters of orders issued by those vested with authority". 

I think it can even involve this sphere too where "people" try to interpret or understand any order. And its example is the verse of chapter 3 shared by me earlier where a group of believers quarrel on the order of Prophet after they have seen enemy fleeing from ground, they thought they have won the war and left their place. The verse has used the phrase  وَتَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي الأَمْرِ. 

[Cool]

20 hours ago, Guest Haydar said:

You are correct why would Allah ask us to refer back to the Quran and Sunna if the ulul al amr were infallible

I would like to ask you to present any verse (except of the obedience to parents) where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded us to obey the sinners, liars, impatient etc.

وَلَا تُطِيعُوا أَمْرَ الْمُسْرِفِينَ

26:151

فَاصْبِرْ لِحُكْمِ رَبِّكَ وَلَا تُطِعْ مِنْهُمْ آثِمًا أَوْ كَفُورًا

76:24 

وَلَا تُطِعْ مَنْ أَغْفَلْنَا قَلْبَهُ عَن ذِكْرِنَا وَاتَّبَعَ هَوَاهُ وَكَانَ أَمْرُهُ فُرُطًا

18:28 

فَلَا تُطِعِ الْكَافِرِينَ وَجَاهِدْهُم بِهِ جِهَادًا كَبِيرًا

25:52 

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ اتَّقِ اللَّهَ وَلَا تُطِعِ الْكَافِرِينَ وَالْمُنَافِقِينَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا

33:1

فَلَا تُطِعِ الْمُكَذِّبِينَ

68:8 

وَلَا تُطِعْ كُلَّ حَلَّافٍ مَّهِينٍ

68:10

Even the obedience of parents is conditional at some point:

وَوَصَّيْنَا الْإِنسَانَ بِوَالِدَيْهِ حُسْنًا وَإِن جَاهَدَاكَ لِتُشْرِكَ بِي مَا لَيْسَ لَكَ بِهِ عِلْمٌ فَلَا تُطِعْهُمَا إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ

29:8

وَإِن جَاهَدَاكَ عَلى أَن تُشْرِكَ بِي مَا لَيْسَ لَكَ بِهِ عِلْمٌ فَلَا تُطِعْهُمَا وَصَاحِبْهُمَا فِي الدُّنْيَا مَعْرُوفًا وَاتَّبِعْ سَبِيلَ مَنْ أَنَابَ إِلَيَّ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ

31:15

[313_Waiter]

Salaam according to hubeali this verse (and many other verses) were distorted:

Quote

Allah and the Rasool if you were believing in Allah and the Last Day, that would be better and of excellent interpretation [4:59] ».

Ali Bin Ibrahim said, ‘My father narrated to me, from Hamad, from Hareyz,

From Abu Abdullahasws having said: ‘It was Revealed as: Thus, if you were to quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Rasool, and to the ones with (Divine) Authority among you [4:59]’’.

Tafsir Qummi 141:1

 

Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Abu Umeyr, from Uman Bin Azina, from Bureyd Bin Muawiya who said,

‘Abu Ja’farasws recited O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Rasool and those with (Divine) Authority from you. Thus, if you were to quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Rasool, and to the ones with (Divine) Authority among you [4:59]’.

 

Then heasws said: ‘How can Heazwj Command for theirasws obedience and then allow them (the people) to dispute with themasws? But rather, Heazwj has Said that to the Commanded ones when Heazwj Said to them (the people): Obey Allah and obey the Rasool”.

Al Kafi H 14660

 

Quote

Then Heazwj Said to the people O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Rasool and those with (Divine) Authority from you [4:59]. It Means usasws in particular, the affairs of the entirety of the Momineen up to the Day of Judgment, by them being obedient to usasws, Thus, if you were to quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Rasool, and to the ones with (Divine) Authority among you [4:59], like this is how it was Revealed. And how can Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic with obedience to the Masterasws of the Command and Allow them to quarrel with themasws. But rather, that was Said to the Commanded ones for whomasws Heazwj Said to them O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Rasool and those with (Divine) Authority from you [4:59]’.

Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 59 H 1

 

https://hubeali.com/books/English-Books/TafseerHub-e-Ali/CH4_SuraNisaa_Verses42-68.pdf#page28

[Zainuu]

On 11/10/2020 at 4:45 AM, MaisumAli said:

While reading an article online discussing the verse 4:59

'O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.'

 

More specifically:

And if you disagree over anything

 

They said that this is contridictory to what the Shias say, that the Imams(عليه السلام) are the 'Ulil Amr' and are divinely appointed, they proceeded by saying that if The Imams(عليه السلام) were really Divinely appointed then why would Allah allow us to argue and disagree with them, and they further stated that The Ulil Amr do not have "complete authority" because Allah doesn't say "Ati"(Obey) the Ulil Amr, and instead connects it with an "and", which means that complete obedience is not required, as per the ayah:

 

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you."

 

Otherwise it would look like this:

 

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and obey those in authority among you. 

 

Your thoughts on this?

These are two different issues:

1. Issue of obedience

2. Issue of dispute

1. Obedience of Ulil Amr is just like the obedience of Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and that is why it says obey the messenger and Ulil Amr. It specified the obedience if messenger after the obedience of Allah because Allah is unique and above everything. 

Also, this assertion can be proved from 'Man Kunto mawla' also which clearly means that you have to obey Ali (عليه السلام) like you obey the messenger'. 

2. Obedience for Ulil Amr is without an argument and completely similar to the obedience of messenger. So, the next part of the verse points to a solution to a possible dispute. 

It says, "if you have any dispute regarding Ulil Amr then don't go to saqeefa or elsewhere but instead refer to the messenger."

So, this verse poses a question on Sunnis only. Why they accepted the election of Abu Bakr in Saqeefa when it was asked to refer back to the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Why Umar and others stopped The Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from giving a pen and paper to write the will??

None of the Sunnis can ever give this answer. 

[Zainuu]

On 11/10/2020 at 5:49 PM, MaisumAli said:

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger and the Ulil Amr, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."

If they are disputing about 'authority' then why will they refer to the 'authority' itself for solution. 

I mean if:

Umar says I am the Ulil Amr.

Abu Bakr says 'No, it is me'.

Ali (عليه السلام) says 'I am the Ulil Amr'.

So, how will you refer to them for choosing the Ulil Amr. It can only be done by the authorities above them which are Allah and the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

This is an intellectual argument actually. Regarding the Divine Authority, Allah never assigns an authority that has a potential of making error. Also, infallibility of the Imams is proven by the verse 33:33.

[313_Waiter]

5 hours ago, Zainuu said:

It says, "if you have any dispute regarding Ulil Amr then don't go to saqeefa or elsewhere but instead refer to the messenger."

So, this verse poses a question on Sunnis only. Why they accepted the election of Abu Bakr in Saqeefa when it was asked to refer back to the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Why Umar and others stopped The Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from giving a pen and paper to write the will??

Salaam brother, do you believe the hadiths I quoted are fabricated (there are more similar hadiths in the link)?

 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by 313_Waiter

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

Concerning that ayah saying obey Allah, his Messenger, and Ulil Amr, we do not disobey them. Why? Because they are Ahlulbayt (عليهم السلام). If it is the “Caliphs” they say they are, then they are proving their ignorance to the whole Ummah. If it is how they say it, their most revered sahaba should be in hell. All they did was argue with each other. Now, as for the Prince of Believers (عليه السلام), he disobeyed them. Does that mean he is in hell (authobillah)? Never. Refer to Verse 33 of Surat al Ahzab. He is purified from sins. It is not a sin in the 1st place. Why? Because he was the divinely appointed Ulil Amr. 
 

Hopefully this helps. Wa Salam

[Zainuu]

@313_Waiter, I can't say anything about them. My opinion is that something which refutes the Holy Qur'an is wrong. It is also maybe one of the criterias to check for the authentication of Hadith. 

My point of view on the verse of obedience brought in this topic is based upon the interpretation of the verse. I don't think the verse is incomplete or incorrect etc. 

And this verse along with a plethora of Hadith and proofs which are a 100% true is together a proof of authority of Imams and also their infallibility.

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

2 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

It is also maybe one of the criterias to check for the authentication of Hadith

You are correct brother. If a Hadith contradicts the Quran, the Hadith goes to the trash.

[313_Waiter]

Just now, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

If a Hadith contradicts the Quran, the Hadith goes to the trash.

This was the criteria of Sheikh Sadouq right brother?

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

1 minute ago, 313_Waiter said:

This was the criteria of Sheikh Sadouq right brother?

I am pretty sure that it is the criteria of the Sunnis and Shia for grading Hadith.

[Ali bin Hussein]

This was one of the verses of Qur'an that eventually led me to Zaidi. After long discussions with different Shia ulema while I was still 12er their  rational argument didn't sit with me as the verse seemed very clear.

As well as the fact Qur'an has commanded us the obey the Prophet in multiple verses but there is never a clause at the end. 

Why was this command to obey different ? 

Third when ever leadership is mentioned in Qur'an with exception of Prophethood there is normally a clause or explication. 

Ultimately they fell back on 12er hadith. Where as I looked for those whose answer I felt fit the verse better, initially I was drawn towards Sunni but Allahamdullilah I found Zaidiya. 

My advice is let Quran guide you. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Warilla

[Zainuu]

7 minutes ago, Warilla said:

After long discussions with different Shia ulema while I was still 12er their  rational argument didn't sit with me as the verse seemed very clear

Salaam, 

Can I ask you, what was your point??

[Ali bin Hussein]

That I felt this verse was against the aqeeda of 12er despite trying to find an answer. 

By mentioning 12er ulema its quite an "aggressive" statement of my views. It gets people often throwing arguments back at you. Which is a great way to learn. If we all just act very passive to each other great debates an thgts would likely not occur. But having good akhkaq is very important. I hope I do maintain it while also giving a bit of a challenge. 

 

Maybe I'm wrong. I play alot of sports best way to find your weaknesses is to challenge.

I have plenty of freinds who are 12er and Sunni and the verse sits well with them and there beleifs. . 

[Zainuu]

1 minute ago, Warilla said:

 

That I felt this verse was against the aqeeda of 12er despite trying to find an answer. 

By mentioning 12er ulema its quite an "aggressive" statement of my views. It gets people often throwing arguments back at you. Which is a great way to learn. If we all just act very passive to each other great debates an thgts would likely not occur. But having good akhkaq is very important. I hope I do maintain it while also giving a bit of a challenge. 

 

Maybe I'm wrong. I play alot of sports best way to find your weaknesses is to challenge.

I have plenty of freinds who are 12er and Sunni and the verse sits well with them and there beleifs. . 

Haha. No, I actually don't debate. I just try to see how diverse opinions can be. Sitting in a bubble will never make us understand ourselves. I don't challenge much. I just challenge myself many times. 

Their is nothing to be sentimental about beliefs. If we will be this way, we will never find the true path. 

[313_Waiter]

In this video Sayed Ammar talks about this verse (I don’t know where because it’s been long since I watched it). If I remember correctly, he says something along the lines that the Quran says to refer to Allah and his rasool because Allah and his rasool won’t differ from what the Ulil Amr tell you [I suppose because ulil amr have the same orders that has been revealed to the Prophet (saw)].

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by 313_Waiter

[Cool]

What is the meaning of "Ulil Amr"? 

Keeping in view the fact that the "Amr" resides with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and keeping in view the following verse:

تَنَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِم مِّن كُلِّ أَمْرٍ

97:4

To whom the Angels & Ruh descends? To whom they give the Amr? 

 

[Ali bin Hussein]

On 12/11/2020 at 3:31 PM, 313_Waiter said:

Quran says to refer to Allah and his rasool because Allah and his rasool won’t differ from what the Ulil Amr tell you [I suppose because ulil amr have the same orders that has been revealed to the Prophet (saw)].

 

That makes the clause redundant. As although I agree they would say the same as Qur'an and sunnah, but the clause leaves the option open for disagreement as they are not inffalible. It they were inffalible the 12er way why even put the clause on the end.

The answer I got after asking this question from and scholar was:

The clauses are there to avoid following the wrong person it's a safe gaurd to follow only masoom. 

Make of that what you will. 

[Zainuu]

9 minutes ago, Warilla said:

As although I agree they would say the same as Qur'an and sunnah, but the clause leaves the option open for disagreement as they are not inffalible. It they were inffalible the 12er way why even put the clause on the end.

On Infallibility you can make up an argument. But it's actually verse 33:33 that says more for infalibility. 

Here, it just says that the authority should not be democratic or anything by your will but by the will of Allah and the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

'Obey' is used before Allah and then before The Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to separate Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) from the being. 

In simple words, it is Allah's command which will tell us to obey the Prophet and the Ulil Amr. 

[313_Waiter]

56 minutes ago, Warilla said:

That makes the clause redundant. As although I agree they would say the same as Qur'an and sunnah, but the clause leaves the option open for disagreement as they are not inffalible. It they were inffalible the 12er way why even put the clause on the end.

The answer I got after asking this question from and scholar was:

The clauses are there to avoid following the wrong person it's a safe gaurd to follow only masoom. 

Make of that what you will. 

I believe the disagreement is not being encouraged, rather a viable solution for discord is being given in the Qur’an (so it is not redundant either). What is to be noted is that the Imams ((عليه السلام)) are there to preserve the Qur’an and Sunnah of rasoolullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), they do not get new revelation, or a different shariah. So the verse is saying that if you (e.g. Yazid disagreeing with the authority of Imam Husayn ((عليه السلام)) or Muawiya disagreeing with Imam Ali ((عليه السلام))) disagree with something, go and refer it back to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) if you believe, (fix yourself!!!) because Allah and His Messenger are not going to say anything different and the issue is with you, and you need to rectify it.  That is better and more favourable for you.

Quote

O you who have faith! Obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those vested with authority among you. And if you dispute concerning anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you have faith in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more favourable in outcome. (4:59)

...

10. A complete religion must have a solution for discords. The Qur'an says:

"...refer it to Allah and the Messenger ..."

11. Those who are opponent to the orders of Allah, the Messenger, and 'those charged with authority' should doubt in their own religion, if they want to believe in truth.

"…if you believe…"

12. Farsightedness and being careful of the interests of long future, time is the standard of value.

"... This is better and very good in the end."

Source: “An Enlightening Commentary into the Light of the Holy Qur'an vol. 4”

 

Remember what 4:54 said:

Quote

Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them out of His grace? We have certainly given the progeny of Abraham the Book and wisdom, and We have given them a great sovereignty

Btw bro, if you believe in al Kafi, I would also like to know your thoughts on the traditions I quoted above.^^

wasalaam

Edited December 13, 2020 by 313_Waiter

[Ali bin Hussein]

6 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Btw bro, if you believe in al Kafi, I would also like to know your thoughts on the traditions I quoted above.^^

 

Al kafi isn't an authority on my scholars. They dont take from it at all.

Speaking of Al kafi there is a Sahih narration where imam Jaffer Sadiq explicitly says the ulil amr are Ali Hassan and Hussain. 

This hadith only favours Zaidi aqeeda.

[313_Waiter]

52 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

On Infallibility you can make up an argument. But it's actually verse 33:33 that says more for infalibility. 

There are other verses as well, such as Abraham’s covenant for leadership not extending to the unjust and the Qur’anic expression mukhlaseen (innately pure ones) who can’t be misled by Satan.

 

For 33:33 I have a few questions brother:

• Traditions say this means they’re free from doubt and not sin, how do we make sense of such traditions.
• Were they impure before this verse or would this be part of the eternal will of God that was only disclosed to us at a certain point in time (the time the event of al Kisa took place)?

I feel the best verse about “rijs” to support the twelver narrative would be 9:125 (but I’ve heard Sunnis use other verses where rijs is referred in relation to companions or other matters, not sure how’d we respond to that)

Quote

But as for those in whose heart is a sickness, it only adds defilement to their defilement, and they die while they are faithless. (9:125)

Barakallahu fik 

[313_Waiter]

17 minutes ago, Warilla said:

This hadith only favours Zaidi aqeeda.

So you can dispute with Ali ((عليه السلام)) Hasan ((عليه السلام)) Husain ((عليه السلام)) according to Zaidi aqeeda (and only these three are referred to)? Would Abu Bakr be right in usurping the khilafa? Btw what was ur thoughts on my explanation bro?

Also I can see why it’d make sense to refer to someone who is alive at the time.

Edited December 13, 2020 by 313_Waiter

[313_Waiter]

On 12/12/2020 at 3:01 AM, Cool said:

To whom the Angels & Ruh descends? To whom they give the Amr? 

 

I see what you mean bro, but at the same time how do you know we’re not doing eisegesis and we are doing exegesis. For example, a Sunni may say the angels have a functional role in descending, like to bring peace to the believers or to initiate what has been ordained for the next year, based on the deeds of said believer. Like Azrael has the role of parting the soul with the body, and Michael has the role of bringing rain, rizq and plants.

Edited December 13, 2020 by 313_Waiter

[Zainuu]

6 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

For 33:33 I have a few questions brother:

• Traditions say this means they’re free from doubt and not sin, how do we make sense of such traditions.
• Were they impure before this verse or would this be part of the eternal will of God that was only disclosed to us at a certain point in time (the time the event of al Kisa took place)?

I feel the best verse about “rijs” to support the twelver narrative would be 9:125 (but I’ve heard Sunnis use other verses where rijs is referred in relation to companions or other matters, not sure how’d we respond to that)

1. Yes. The tradition says rijs is doubt. But if you read the context of that hadith in al-Kafi. Imam as Sadiq adds that, "By Allah, we never had any doubts about him".

Now, this is huge. They are so pure that they never doubt Allah even for a fraction of second. The first sentence tells the meaning. But when Imam emphasises the term 'doubt', it elevates Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) to a position even above some Prophets. For example, Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) wanted to know from Allah that how does he gives life to a dead. He wanted to see it actually. 

 And [mention] when Abraham said, "My Lord, show me how You give life to the dead." [Allah] said, "Have you not believed?" He said, "Yes, but [I ask] only that my heart may be satisfied." [Allah] said, "Take four birds and commit them to yourself. Then [after slaughtering them] put on each hill a portion of them; then call them - they will come [flying] to you in haste. And know that Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise."

So, the level of certainty of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) is at it's peak. The argument might beg for an example. So, it is Karbala. 

For the sake of clarity, here is the entire hadith:

H 757, Ch. 64, h 1
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Yunus and Ali ibn Muhammad from Sahl ibn Ziyad, abu Sa‘id from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Yunus from ibn Muskan from abu Basir who has said that he asked abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) about the following words of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High. "Believers, obey God, His Messenger, and your leaders (who possess Divine authority). . . ." (4:59) The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, "This was sent from heavens about Ali ibn abu talib al-Hassan and al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).)." I then said, "People say, "Why did He not specify Ali and his family by their names in the book of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High?’" The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, "Say to them, ‘The command for prayer came to the Messenger of Allah but He has not specified (the number of the Rak‘ats) for them three nor four. It, in fact, was the Messenger of Allah who explained to them this matter. The command for Zakat (a form of income tax) came to the Messenger of Allah and there was no specific taxable number such as one Dirham on every forty Dirham. It was the Messenger of Allah who explained it for them. The command for Hajj came to the Messenger of Allah. It did not say walk senven times around the Ka‘ba. It was the Messenger of Allah who explained it for them. The verse about obedience came "Believers, obey God, His Messenger, and your leaders (who possess Divine authority). . . ." (4:59) It came to declare that Ali, al-Hassan and al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) were the leaders who possessed Divine authority. The Messenger of Allah then said about Ali ((عليه السلام).), "On whoever I have Divine Authority, then Ali ((عليه السلام).) has Divine Authority over him also." He also has said, "I enjoin you to follow the book of Allah and my family because have prayed to Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High not to separate these two from each other until He will make them arrive al-Kawthar (at the pool of Paradise) to meet me. He has granted my prayer as such." The Holy Prophet (s.a.) has said, "Do not try to teach them (The Imam ((عليه السلام).) because they are far more knowledgeable than you." The Holy Prophet (s.a.) has said, " The Imam ((عليه السلام).) will never take you out of the gate of guidance and they never make you enter the gate of misguidance." Had the Messenger of Allah remained silent and would not explain anything about his Ahl al-Bayt (family) the family of so and so would have advanced their claim for Imamat (Leadership with Divine Authority). However, Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has revealed it in His book to confirm the explanantions of His Prophet about Ahl al-Bayt (in the following verse), "People of the house, God wants to remove all kinds of uncleanliness from you and to purify you thoroughly." (33:33) Ali, Fatima, al-Hassan and al-Hussain ((عليه السلام).) were there and the Holy Prophet (s.a.) made them to enter under al-Kisa’ (the Cloak) in the house of ’Umm salama and then said, "O Lord, every prophet has a family and a gravity, and these are my family and gravity." ’Umm Salama at this point said, "Am I not of your family?" The Holy Prophet (s.a.) said, "You are in goodness but these are my family and my gravity." When the Messenger of Allah passed away Ali ((عليه السلام).) had the utmost priority and guardianship of the people all because of what the Messenger of 
Allah had preached about him. It was because of raising him up for the people and holding his hand in his hand. When Ali ((عليه السلام).) (was about to) passed away he could not (and would not) enter Muhammad ibn Ali or al-Abbas ibn Ali or anyone of his other sons in the position of Imamat. Otherwise, al-Hassan and al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) would have said, "Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has revealed about us just as He has done so about you, and He has commanded people to obey us just as He has commanded people to obey you. The Messenger of Allah has  preached to people about us just as he has done so about you. Allah has removed al-Rijs uncleanliness from us just as He has done so to you. When Ali ((عليه السلام).) left this world, al-Hassan had the utmost priority for Imamat (Leadership with Divine Authority) because he was the eldest. When was about to die he could not, and would not, enter his sons in the position of Imamat. It is because ;Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, says, ". . . The relatives are closer to each other, according to the Book of God, than the believers and the emigrants. . ." (33:6) He then places Imamat (Leadership with Divine Authority) in his sons. If so, al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) would have said, "Allah has commanded people to obey me just as He has commanded people to obey you and to obey your father. The Messenger of Allah has preached to people about me just as he has preached to people about you and your father. Allah has removed al-Rijs (unleanliness) from me just as He has removed from you and your father. When the Imamat (Leadership with Divine Authority) was in full force with al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) there was no one in his family to who could claim against him as he could calim against his brother and father, had they wanted to diver it from him and they would not do so. After them it found its place with al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) and the interpretation of this verse continued, ". . . The relatives are closer to each other, according to the Book of God, than the believers and the emigrants. . . ." (33:6) After al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) Imamat (Leadership with Divine Authority) found its place with Ali ibn al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).). After Ali ibn al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) it (Leadership with Divine Authority) found its place with Muhammad ibn Ali ((عليه السلام).)." The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, "Al-Rijs means doubts, I swear by Allah that we never doubt in our Lord." 
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Muhammad ibn Khalid and al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from al-Nadr ibn Suwayd from Yahya ibn ‘Imran al-Halabi from Ayyub ibn al-Hurr and ‘Imran ibn Ali al-Halabi from abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) a similar hadith.

 

The verse never says that Allah has purified them. In that case, we can assume impurity to be existent. But it says: (this I took from Quran.com so shia bias cannot be expected)

Allah only intends to keep ˹the causes of˺ evil away from you and purify you completely, O  members of the ˹Prophet’s˺ family!

So, Allah is keeping the causes of evil away from them. So, it is not saying that 'Allah purified' but rather kept impurity away which means they were already pure. Because if they were impure then how is Allah only keeping impurity away because they also need purification.