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In the Name of God بسم الله

Atheists, I want to know why you believe in what you believe in.

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You are sidestepping the actual point I was making. It has nothing to do with being practical, it has to do with being consistent. If you believe in x (x could be anything, practical or impractical) b

I have an agnostic brother, and at least a couple of atheist friends (one was born in a strict Deobandi household). I have a couple of cousins who are militant atheists. I have tons of non-practicing

Well if you knew God's plan, you would be God now wouldn't you? What is the point of demanding all the knowledge God has, what then would separate a human from God? You speak about logic but

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3 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Prove it.

You see, cause and effect is not universal because if it were it would apply universally!  Even to God!

Allah is the creator of Universe. Not the part of Universe. 

Tell me one universal principle that applies to Allah??? 

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Related to this topic: what are atheist/agnostic views on axioms? Axioms are self-evident, universal facts that can not be proved. These can be used to deduce more complicated facts and proofs.

Every branch of mathematics is built upon axioms; take them away and you basically destroy the foundation of mathematics. What axioms do atheists/agnostics hold?

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@eThErEaL these three principles quoted as a combination can be extended to the realm of Allah too. 

Not alone cause and effect. 

Al Sadr even said :

Lower cannot be a cause for higher.

Allah is not lower than any entity so the second argument rectifies it. 

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6 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Allah is the creator of Universe. Not the part of Universe. 

Tell me one universal principle that applies to Allah??? 

So you agree that causality does not apply to God.  So you agree that God is not even a cause?  

Edited by eThErEaL
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Just now, eThErEaL said:

So you agree that God is not a cause?  

God is a cause but not an effect. 

You ignored this:

5 hours ago, Zainuu said:

these three principles quoted as a combination can be extended to the realm of Allah too. 

Not alone cause and effect. 

Al Sadr even said :

Lower cannot be a cause for higher.

Allah is not lower than any entity so the second argument rectifies it. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

God is a cause but not an effect. 

You ignored this:

 

I am sorry for ignoring that.  
So if God is a cause then causality is still applicable to him.  
if you want to be consistent don’t apply causality to God at all.

@Zainuu

Also,

God is not higher or lower.  If God is “higher“ the that would make God relative to creation.  
 

Edited by eThErEaL
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1 minute ago, eThErEaL said:

I am sorry for ignoring that.  
So if God is a cause then causality is still applicable to him.  
if you want to be consistent don’t apply causality to God at all.
 

 

1 minute ago, Zainuu said:

Philosophically, Yes. 

But you still ignored that. 

Check my post again.  Edited. 

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4 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

I am sorry for ignoring that.  
So if God is a cause then causality is still applicable to him.  
if you want to be consistent don’t apply causality to God at all.

@Zainuu

Also,

God is not higher or lower.  If God is “higher“ the that would make God relative to creation.  
 

Man, 

If their is a creation, their must be a creator. isn't it causality???? 

In that way, you can't ascribe attributes to Allah, still you call him all-powerful. Why? 

Because your speech is limited and to describe him you can't help but use these attributes. 

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1 hour ago, Zainuu said:

Man, 

If their is a creation, their must be a creator. isn't it causality???? 
 

So causality is applied even to the creator?  Before you said it is not applied to God now it is?  Do you see your inconsistency?  

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In that way, you can't ascribe attributes to Allah, still you call him all-powerful. Why? 
 

I am just telling you that you are inconsistent.  If you want to point out even more inconsistencies then be my guest.  You are just shooting yourself in the foot.  Is God the Cause?  Yes or no?  If Yes, then Causality applies to God!  And Causality applies to God, then God is relative to the rest of the so called “causal chain”.   

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Because your speech is limited and to describe him you can't help but use these attributes. 

You are trying to prove something that is indescribable.  What or who are you trying to prove?  The Indescribable!

Furthermore what is it about It Or what about Him or Her or whatever, are you trying to prove?  You are attempting to prove something Indescribable about The Indescribable.  This is getting even more absurd isn’t it?  
That He,  She It or God or whatever exists?  right?  But does God exist?  What does it even mean to exist?  Isn’t existence relative to nonexistence?  

point being is that it is a futile attempt to even attempt to prove God’s “existence”.  
 

think of it like this, whatever you are trying or attempting to prove, is, BY YOUR OWN STANDARDS, not that which you are trying to PROVE because what you are trying to PROVE is beyond concept (it is indescribable).  So whatever you have in mind, IS NOT GOD.  So all this is all just a completely useless exercise. 

Edited by eThErEaL
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5 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

So causality is applied even to the creator?  Before you said it is not applied to God now it is?  Do you see your inconsistency?  

I am just telling you that you are inconsistent.  If you want to point out even more inconsistencies then be my guest.  You are just shooting yourself in the foot.  Is God the Cause?  Yes or no?  If Yes, then Causality applies to God!  And Causality applies to God, then God is relative to the rest of the so called “causal chain”.   

You are trying to prove something that is indescribable.  What or who are you trying to prove?  The Indescribable!

Furthermore what is it about It Or what about Him or Her or whatever, are you trying to prove?  You are attempting to prove something Indescribable about The Indescribable.  This is getting even more absurd isn’t it?  
That He,  She It or God or whatever exists?  right?  But does God exist?  What does it even mean to exist?  Isn’t existence relative to nonexistence?  

point being is that it is a futile attempt to even attempt to prove God’s “existence”.  
 

think of it like this, whatever you are trying or attempting to prove, is, BY YOUR OWN STANDARDS, not that which you are trying to PROVE because what you are trying to PROVE is beyond concept (it is indescribable).  So whatever you have in mind, IS NOT GOD.  So all this is all just a completely useless exercise. 

Causality doesn't alone apply to Allah. 

But the combination of three notions stated in the book together do.

So, Allah is the cause to everything but Allah can't be the effect of anything because Allah is the All-High, The Creator.

Now, if you are trying to refute the logic of these statements, you actually can't do it without negating the principles. If you negate the principles, you cannot apply it to the universe and creation of the Universe. Thus, testifying Athiesm by proving yourself a fool.

If you want to play with the arguments or make a joke of it, well I don't have any authority over you but then just don't comment because then you are wasting my time. 

Wassalam

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2 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Causality doesn't alone apply to Allah. 

But the combination of three notions stated in the book together do.

So, Allah is the cause to everything but Allah can't be the effect of anything because Allah is the All-High, The Creator.\

So God is "part" of the causal chain.

 

Creation = effect, God = cause.

Cause (God) +Effect (Creation) = Causal Chain.

2 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Now, if you are trying to refute the logic of these statements, you actually can't do it without negating the principles. If you negate the principles, you cannot apply it to the universe and creation of the Universe. Thus, testifying Athiesm by proving yourself a fool.

I negated the first principle.  That there is no actual causal chain.  Prove there is causality.  just prove it.  No proof.

2 hours ago, Zainuu said:

If you want to play with the arguments or make a joke of it, well I don't have any authority over you but then just don't comment because then you are wasting my time. 

Wassalam

I am making a serious case here.  I am not trying to waste anyone's time.  

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6 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

negated the first principle.  That there is no actual causal chain.  Prove there is causality.  just prove it.  No proof.

You just didn't negate any principle. 

I proved it to you, you denied and started making statements. 

If their is a creation, their must be a creator. Details are present in the book I shared. It's annoying to bring it again and again. 

8 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

am making a serious case here.  I am not trying to waste anyone's time.  

Seriously case???  

you are just wasting time. 

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4 hours ago, Zainuu said:

You just didn't negate any principle. 

I proved it to you, you denied and started making statements. 

If their is a creation, their must be a creator. Details are present in the book I shared. It's annoying to bring it again and again. 

Seriously case???  

you are just wasting time. 

I am sorry you feel I wasted your time.

take care

 

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Since you're not going to actually give a real response, I will just make my point. You believe in love even though there are ways to question the existence of love. There is evidence and counter evidence for it. It is not something you can experience directly with the senses. Yet you don't believe in God, and it seems aren't even willing to have a serious discussion about the topic, even though all of these things are equally true of God as they are of love. So to me, that shows a bias toward this belief.

One last thing that you should consider. If you are right, and God doesn't exist, we will both die and turn to dust and not exist anymore and that's it. I didn't lose anything by believing in God. You got some wealth and I got some wealth. You had some fun and so did I. I didn't really give up anything and got most of what I wanted anyway, even while believing in God, and you did too, while not believing in God. But if I am right, and God does exist, and you spent your whole not believing in Him even though there was lots of evidence for it, what kind of situation do you think you will be in after you leave this world ? In this world, we may be equal, but in the next world we won't be. So believing in God is the safe choice, even if you are not 100% convinced of it. It is the logical choice.  In my experience, that is why there are few atheists, because even if you are not 100% convinced intellectually that God exists, it is still a safer choice than not believing in God. The vast majority of people would rather be safe than be right. 

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2 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Since you're not going to actually give a real response, I will just make my point.

I answered your question squarely!  I am not sure what you mean by I am not giving an actual response.  

 

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You believe in love even though there are ways to question the existence of love. There is evidence and counter evidence for it. It is not something you can experience directly with the senses. 

It is something you experience, even if not with the senses.  There are thoughts, emotions and sensations that can be experienced.  Not everything is a sensory kind of experience.  I am not saying love is an emotion by the way.  But it is certainly something that is experienced.

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 Yet you don't believe in God, and it seems aren't even willing to have a serious discussion about the topic, even though all of these things are equally true of God as they are of love. So to me, that shows a bias toward this belief.

Yes, so what if I am bias.  I have a reason for why I am biased.  I am biased because god is not a practical belief to have.  What makes me believe in something is its practicality.  All beliefs are false at the end of the day.  Because a belief is nothing but that!   belief is nothing but "a belief"!  But we need beliefs to function in the world.  I gave a couple of example of what I mean.  Like love is a very practical thing.  My memories are a very practical thing.  I rely on believing on these thing to get me through the day!  But  belief in god, is useless.  The only way I can think of it being useful is because is if it somehow gives you a sense comfort in this unknown universe that we live in.  It is useful to you if you feel comforted by believing that someone is always there to listen to you (to be your mom or your dad).  :)

 

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One last thing that you should consider. If you are right, and God doesn't exist,

I didn't say that God doesn't exists nor did I say that God exists.  I said belief in a God is useless for me.  

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we will both die and turn to dust and not exist anymore and that's it. 

That is just your belief.  I believe I wont TURN into dust.  I believe the body will TURN to dust, but not me.  And no, I don't have the useless belief of me being a soul or a spirit or some other imaginary entity.  I do not believe I am a body.  I do not believe I am a mind.  I don't have any positive beliefs about who I am.  I just believe in what I am not.    I am not this, and I am not that.  This is why I am an Atheist / Agnostic.  

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I didn't lose anything by believing in God.

You are are losing your precious life by believing in useless things.  Believe in things that have use!  

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You got some wealth and I got some wealth. You had some fun and so did I. I didn't really give up anything

You have to give up your useless beliefs.  But if they are useful to you, then fine.  I don't blame you. 

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what kind of situation do you think you will be in after you leave this world ?

Quite honestly, I don't believe that I am IN the world for the world can very well be IN ME.  The world may cease, I don't believe I will cease.  

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In this world, we may be equal, but in the next world we won't be. So believing in God is the safe choice, even if you are not 100% convinced of it. It is the logical choice.  In my experience, that is why there are few atheists, because even if you are not 100% convinced intellectually that God exists, it is still a safer choice than not believing in God. The vast majority of people would rather be safe than be right. 

 

Edited by eThErEaL
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59 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

This is not a belief.  :). 

Axioms, laws, principles are beliefs which are agreed upon, therefore, such a belief is self-defeating. 

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8 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Certitude (not as a thought or as an idea) but of "BEING certain", certitude in and as Being itself.

Is Being itself an axiom, a principle?  No.  

We cannot 'be' without axioms and set principles otherwise our existence would be chaos. In order to 'be' one must submit to the laws which govern the self internally and externally, your soul has already submitted, it is merely the mind which has been deceived by the idea of disbelief that can conclude belief to be meaningless. Certitude is a belief in certainty, feeling certain is a belief - simply being is a belief, you cannot escape belief especially when uttering a statement of disbelief. 

 

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On 11/10/2020 at 10:27 PM, eThErEaL said:

I am of the view that there is no real mind independent external world. You know that age old question?:  "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" 

My answer is: There is no sound.  
 

everything that exists so far as we know is either in the form of

1) a sensation

2) a thought

3) or an emotion.

and truly speaking,

1) a sensation is nothing if there is no sensing of it.

2) a thought is nothing If there is no thinking of it

3) and an emotion is nothing of it is no feeling of it.  

So there is no mind independent external world.  If there is, it is nothing but something that exists in the form of a mere thought, and this thought depends on our thinking of it.  

So there are a lot of age old philosophical problems that collapse or that no longer arise the moment we understand that there truly is no such thing as a mind independent world. 
 

this whole issue of whether the moon actually split in two... is now a useless question because there is actually no mind independent world wherein the moon actually split into two.  There is no mind independent moon to begin with!  The splitting of the moon exists either as an idea, a feeling or a sensation.

Salaam eThErEal

Ibn Sina, working from Aristotle, claimed that there is nothing in the mind that has not first come through our senses, save for the mind itself. This was later expounded upon by Thomas Aquinas

The mind is the most complex thing in the universe (Allah is outside the universe, and this universe exists from his will and power). And our mind contains within it an intuition of the divine. 

When I was much younger I tried to be agnostic, or even atheist --and I emphasize "tried", because there was always a nagging intuition of something beyond this world --that sustains us. Didn't matter how much I rationalized my way out of such an intuition, or used my powers of reason to argue against it --it always remained.

GK Chesterton said "if there were no God, there would be no atheists"

Agnosticism is a hard fence to balance on, because you know in your heart and intuition that on one side is irrationalism, emptiness, denial, and confinement

I can't convince you of what is on the other side, but one must ultimately choose 

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2 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

What is LA ILAHA ILLA ALLAH ?

 

“There is no god except Allah”

It doesn’t say “there is only one self-evident reality”

Btw are you really Shahrukh Khan :D

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