Atheists, I want to know why you believe in what you believe in.

[Nightclaw]

3 hours ago, Quisant said:

Therefore... Existence is the only Necessity for which all other things, including a God, are contingent.

This is paradoxical. If we assume your postulation is true, then we would not be here to begin with. Contingency revolves around dependency. If Allah needs someone or something in order for Him to exist, this would fall in line with infinite regression. We can already rule this out because our existence shows that we came from something. In essence, our very existence rules out infinite regression which rules out Allah being contingent. 

Moreover, whenever you say "things", this only applies within the context of the universe according to all definitions, in this context. Allah is outside of this universe and rules outside of it, also ascribing to Himself that He is unlike anything in creation - this includes His Messengers, Prophets, Angels, etc. Anything and everything you can think of or imagine - Allah is nothing like it. 

Therefore, your predication is wrong.

[Quisant]

On 12/17/2020 at 6:41 PM, MuhammadHasanAlBritani said:

Line one means "There exists X which is Rationally Possible". Line two means "There being something rationally possible logically implies there is something rationally necessary". Line three means "There exists H which is rationally necessary".

It has never been shown or demonstrated that there is a unique necessary existent or first cause.

"The First cause": Is this by necessity a singular entity? What prevents multiple causal agents?  What prevents a chain of descending or ascending events with multiple agents acting independently and and simultaneously?
 

On 12/17/2020 at 6:41 PM, MuhammadHasanAlBritani said:

I sometimes write these things in shorthand assuming people understand what I mean, so I do apologise for not thoroughly making the terminology of the above clear, as I did for the main proof.

The problem with your proof is that it does not prove God, in fact, the proof itself doesn't even mention God, it just concludes that the universe has a cause.

You never even attempt to show that this cause is what you call God, and that it is necessarily God because it has the exact same properties as God as you define God.
 

wslm.

*

[Quisant]

On 12/17/2020 at 7:05 PM, Nightclaw said:

This is paradoxical. If we assume your postulation is true, then we would not be here to begin with. Contingency revolves around dependency. If Allah needs someone or something in order for Him to exist, this would fall in line with infinite regression. We can already rule this out because our existence shows that we came from something. In essence, our very existence rules out infinite regression which rules out Allah being contingent. 

Moreover, whenever you say "things", this only applies within the context of the universe according to all definitions, in this context. Allah is outside of this universe and rules outside of it, also ascribing to Himself that He is unlike anything in creation - this includes His Messengers, Prophets, Angels, etc. Anything and everything you can think of or imagine - Allah is nothing like it. 

Therefore, your predication is wrong.

 

Special pleading is a well known informal fallacy.

You can catch up on Wikipedia.

Wslm.

*

[Nightclaw]

2 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Special pleading is a well known informal fallacy.

You can catch up on Wikipedia.

So will you address anything I said or...?

[Quisant]

29 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

So will you address anything I said or...?

I will not, don't assume what you are trying to prove.  

But I do like your avatar, nice picture.  

[Nightclaw]

26 minutes ago, Quisant said:

I will not, don't assume what you are trying to prove.  

But I do like your avatar, nice picture.  

All I did was use deductive reasoning and derive a conclusion that has no problems, by the looks of it.

Thank you. I was told it looks like me, so I decided to use it as my profile picture.

[khamosh21]

after using logical arguments and deduction to prove God's existence... for me personally the actual reality around me really doesn't correlate with Islamic teachings.

For example God has a plan. What is the plan? Why is the plan the way it is? If God will fix the world after the coming of 12th Imam, why couldn't He just do this at the hands of the Prophet? What has been going on for past 1400 years and what has the 12th Imam been doing all of this time? Why allow Islam to be divided for centuries, allow oppressors to rule for so long? Is there any proof there is a 12th Imam or is it just story to keep hope and beliefs alive? What was the point of sending all these prophets and than waiting until the very end to fill the world with justice?

On what basis does God go about destroying communities? He seems to be fine with letting Hindus and Bhuddists thrive. And interestingly there is no mention of these very major religions in the Quran, Bible or Torah. There is speculation that these major religions were started by Prophets, but it is merely speculation, there is no confirmation of this... so the Quran goes out of it's way to tell us strange stories about past nations, but manages to completely ignore some of the oldest religions with extremely large populations.

Why did the Prophet get to marry plus 4 women... it seems he had to follow the sharia, but this rule is the exception... how convenient. Why did a 50 plus year old Prophet, after already having multiple wives, still marry a young 18 year old girl, who goes on to distort religion and fight against the successor of the Prophet? What was God's plan here?

I'll end the rant here... but I could write a book probably.

 

[313_Waiter]

Quote

[Shakir 18:66] Musa said to him: Shall I follow you on condition that you should teach me right knowledge of what you have been taught?
[Shakir 18:67] He said: Surely you cannot have patience with me
[Shakir 18:68] And how can you have patience in that of which you have not got a comprehensive knowledge?
[Shakir 18:69] He said: If Allah pleases, you will find me patient and I shall not disobey you in any matter.
[Shakir 18:70] He said: If you would follow me, then do not question me about any thing until I myself speak to you about it
[Shakir 18:71] So they went (their way) until when they embarked in the boat he made a hole in it. (Musa) said: Have you made a hole in it to drown its inmates? Certainly you have done a grievous thing.
[Shakir 18:72] He said: Did I not say that you will not be able to have patience with me?
[Shakir 18:73] He said: Blame me not for what I forgot, and do not constrain me to a difficult thing in my affair.
[Shakir 18:74] So they went on until, when they met a boy, he slew him. (Musa) said: Have you slain an innocent person otherwise than for manslaughter? Certainly you have done an evil thing.
[Shakir 18:75] He said: Did I not say to you that you will not be able to have patience with me?
[Shakir 18:76] He said: If I ask you about anything after this, keep me not in your company; indeed you shall have (then) found an excuse in my case.
[Shakir 18:77] So they went on until when they came to the people of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused to entertain them as guests. Then they found in it a wall which was on the point of falling, so he put it into a right state. (Musa) said: If you had pleased, you might certainly have taken a recompense for it.
[Shakir 18:78] He said: This shall be separation between me and you; now I will inform you of the significance of that with which you could not have patience.
[Shakir 18:79] As for the boat, it belonged to (some) poor men who worked on the river and I wished that I should damage it, and there was behind them a king who seized every boat by force.
[Shakir 18:80] And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should make disobedience and ingratitude to come upon them:
[Shakir 18:81] So we desired that their Lord might give them in his place one better than him in purity and nearer to having compassion.
[Shakir 18:82] And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure belonging to them, and their father was a righteous man; so your Lord desired that they should attain their maturity and take out their treasure, a mercy from your Lord, and I did not do it of my own accord. This is the significance of that with which you could not have patience.

 

[khamosh21]

4 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

 

i wish God would kill all kids that become a problem for believing parents... these parents were very lucky... if only God took it upon Himself to kill tyrants as well that opress millions of believers, not just one kid that gets murdered by a mythical figure.

So use logic when proving existence of God because it works in your favor. however we can't use logic to question God's plan because here "God works in mysterious ways" and it doesn't go in your favor?

[dragonxx]

8 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I'll end the rant here... but I could write a book probably.

 

would be a very repetitive book. it all boils down to the classic question of why does God allow evil?

In regards to your multiple wives issue, last I checked the average american has 6-8 extra-marital affairs during their lifetime, but you have no issue with that? Islam comes to limit this nonsense, but suddenly it becomes about islam allowing 4 wives while all these other religions and cultures allow 700.

get off your high horse

[dragonxx]

24 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

So use logic when proving existence of God because it works in your favor. however we can't use logic to question God's plan because here "God works in mysterious ways" and it doesn't go in your favor?

Well if you knew God's plan, you would be God now wouldn't you?

What is the point of demanding all the knowledge God has, what then would separate a human from God?

You speak about logic but it seems you repeatedly demonstrate a lack of common sense

[Nightclaw]

19 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

i wish God would kill all kids that become a problem for believing parents... these parents were very lucky... if only God took it upon Himself to kill tyrants as well that opress millions of believers, not just one kid that gets murdered by a mythical figure.

So use logic when proving existence of God because it works in your favor. however we can't use logic to question God's plan because here "God works in mysterious ways" and it doesn't go in your favor?

I agree with you completely in terms of your argument but also disagree because I believe in Allah and al-Khidr is certainly not a mythical figure. 

The very reason why we cannot question Allah is not because of this flimsy and lackadaisical argument "God works in mysterious ways". This is coming only from those who do not know how to reason properly. Among the reasons we cannot question the plan of Allah is due to the fact that He knows everything and is All-Wise. You are a very limited being. I always use this example and I will use it here again. 

You do not possess the strength of a tiger nor stamina of a horse. You cannot see as far as the eagle nor is your memory better than that of an elephant or an orca. With all of these limitations, you cannot possibly think that your own reasoning and wisdom is limitless. 

Most things that atheists/agnosticists do is that they conflate Allah with every single problem of humanity. That is not how it works. Allah has created 3 types of categorical creatures: creatures that are made to do what Allah made them to do (animals), creatures that can only obey Allah (His angels), and creatures of the inbetween (humans). The latter has free will. Allah has given us free will to decide what to do with it. This is not His doing, but the doing of those He has created.

One could argue this: 
"If Allah hadn't created, we wouldn't have this problem to begin with!"
If "if" were a fifth, we'd all be drunk. Whatever is an "if" will always remain an "if" and you will have to deal with reality - the fact of the matter is much more great than worrying about this. It is evident that there is The Creator. You can question His motives when you see him, but you would probably want to be on the right side.

Nonetheless, as these innocent Muslims are being murdered and oppressed, they will enter Paradise. They get the reward of a martyr - immediate Paradise with no intermediaries nor will they be judged on the Day of Judgement. They will also be able to intercede for 70 of their family members, as well. Paradise is better than anything in this world and not even comparable, so what problem do you have with these people entering Paradise? Surely if you accept that Allah created this earth, you have to accept what He reveals upon mankind regarding this. This earth was not created for mere amusement, so Allah is not doing this without a reason. 

I'm sorry if this response is half-done. I'm very tired and did a lot today. If you need any further elaboration, let me know.

[Nightclaw]

8 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Why did the Prophet get to marry plus 4 women... it seems he had to follow the sharia, but this rule is the exception... how convenient. Why did a 50 plus year old Prophet, after already having multiple wives, still marry a young 18 year old girl, who goes on to distort religion and fight against the successor of the Prophet? What was God's plan here?

This did not happen nor was she 18. She was 6-7 when he married her and 9-10 at the time of consummation. Regardless, she and the rest of the people the Shi'a claim distorted the religion doesn't make sense historically. It doesn't make sense that the same people would die in prayer simply to distort the religion. 

The Messengers and Prophets of Allah are chosen and have special privileges. Allah favors them more. You also fail to mention how there were prayers made obligatory to him and that were a Shari'a prescribed to Allah from him in praying at night. There were things the Messenger did that were obligatory upon him and optional for us.

I'd love to hear more about what you have to say and answer to the best of my abilities. Could you respond and tell me all of the problems you have with Islam, Allah, the existence of the Creator, etc? I wouldn't mind reading it no matter how long it is.

[f6om]

8 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

after using logical arguments and deduction to prove God's existence... for me personally the actual reality around me really doesn't correlate with Islamic teachings.

For example God has a plan. What is the plan? Why is the plan the way it is? If God will fix the world after the coming of 12th Imam, why couldn't He just do this at the hands of the Prophet? What has been going on for past 1400 years and what has the 12th Imam been doing all of this time? Why allow Islam to be divided for centuries, allow oppressors to rule for so long? Is there any proof there is a 12th Imam or is it just story to keep hope and beliefs alive? What was the point of sending all these prophets and than waiting until the very end to fill the world with justice?

On what basis does God go about destroying communities? He seems to be fine with letting Hindus and Bhuddists thrive. And interestingly there is no mention of these very major religions in the Quran, Bible or Torah. There is speculation that these major religions were started by Prophets, but it is merely speculation, there is no confirmation of this... so the Quran goes out of it's way to tell us strange stories about past nations, but manages to completely ignore some of the oldest religions with extremely large populations.

Why did the Prophet get to marry plus 4 women... it seems he had to follow the sharia, but this rule is the exception... how convenient. Why did a 50 plus year old Prophet, after already having multiple wives, still marry a young 18 year old girl, who goes on to distort religion and fight against the successor of the Prophet? What was God's plan here?

I'll end the rant here... but I could write a book probably.

 

Who did he have kids with?

He had only 7 kids

The purpose of having wives was to broaden the Islam within numerous tribes

Prophet Muhamad ,peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny married widows, captives, and divorcees etc. as well.

David also had many wives and he is a great personality in the Christian's and our book

His arabic name is Dawud

[313_Waiter]

6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

"God works in mysterious ways" and it doesn't go in your favor?

The point I was making:

Quote

Yet it may be that you dislike something while it is good for you, and it may be that you love something while it is bad for you, and Allah knows and you do not know. (2:216)

 

13 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Why did the Prophet get to marry plus 4 women... it seems he had to follow the sharia, but this rule is the exception... how convenient

Asked many times by orientalists.

Try using al-Islam.org or making a separate topic to this atheist topic instead of asking so many questions on one forum that fewer people will see (or are you just arguing for the sake of it?).

See:

Quote

https://www.al-islam.org/muhammad-yasin-jibouri/marriages-prophet 

 

13 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Why allow Islam to be divided for centuries, allow oppressors to rule for so long?

For the “problem” of suffering :
https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa1000 may help.

Some of my own notes on suffering (sorry if it’s all over the place):

Quote

 

The Argument of 'suffering' and 'Injustice'

Injustice: not according to what is morally right or fair based on theoretical deduction

We do not have an a priori right to live in happiness and without any hardship.

Nor do we have the right to be equal (in terms of suffering) in creation, and God says:

“And We do not lay on any soul a burden except to the extent of its ability, and with Us is a book which speaks the truth, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.” (Mo'minun 23:62)

God has told us that he will test us and this is a reality of life:

"We test you with fear, hunger, the loss of wealth and possessions, death, and the loss of the fruits of your toil. Give glad tidings to those who struggle manfully on this path that those who say when afflicted with calamity and pain, 'We are from God and to Him we return on our path to perfection’, that it is they who receive kindness and mercy from their Lord together with their suffering, and they it is who are truly guided." (Baqarah 2:155-157)

→ The world is "a prison of the believer", "an abode of trials" and "a fleeting world". Those who are righteous will endure more trials than others.

The Benefit of Suffering (spiritual Growth)
→ Suffering can help us grow, it can make us humble and it can shape our character. Which can also be our chastisement.
→ Spiritually, suffering can remove our sins.
→ Imam Ja' far as-Sadiq "I am amazed by the Muslim (submitting) man (one who submits to God), Allah does not decree for him but that would be good for him. If he were cut by scissors, it would be good for him;& if he owned the east and the west, it would be good for him."
Angels will say: “Peace unto you for that ye persevered in patience! Now how excellent is the final home!" 13:24

From khalil jaffer’s lecture:

• A diminishing of the egoic self and greater marifat (gnosis) of one’s Creator
• ‘Aql (intellect) is that through which one worships one’s Creator and subsequently earns
paradise
• Attaining (not physical or in time) proximity of Allah:
“O mankind! Indeed, you (are) laboring to your Lord (with) exertion and you (will) meet Him.” 84:6
• Meeting Him is the complete suspension of the egoic self and a full view of the magnificent Reality.
“People are asleep, when they die they wake up” – Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

And seek help through patience and prayer, and indeed, it is difficult except for the humbly submissive [to Allah ]. 2:45
The angels say “Peace be upon because of the sabr you had when you were in the world”. Prayer (fajr), Fasting (for God consciousness), Zakat, Jihad all give a form of suffering but help in spiritual maturity.
We need to be patient when we have to hold ourselves back, selfless when preferring others over ourselves...
The way to know God is through suffering
“So that you may not grieve for what has escaped you, nor be exultant at what He has given you; and Allah does not love any arrogant boaster:”
It is for YOUR benefit, so you can experience the LOVE of knowing Him

From an Irfani perspective of Good and Evil, Evil is simply an absence of the divine presence; and so creation necessitates Evil (see Seyyed Hossein Nasr’s arguments for the problem of evil here: https://youtu.be/mLZ6zrPy6oo)

 

 

Quote

How to view one's suffering.
→ Look at suffering as a "storm in a teacup".
→ Don't victimise, as it hardens the heart and hates as bitter. Rasulallah lost his parents, grandfather, wife, uncles, homeland, suffered through poverty, bled head to toe, had armies trying to kill him but he smiled and clung to prayer.  He restrained his anger and forgave his opponents.

→ "Tabiah (man’s animalistic nature) complains about suffering, Fitrah (man’s divinely inspired nature) finds the wisdom behind it" Khalil Jaffer (someone you used to listen to).
→ God is al Hakim (the Wise)

 

 

 

That being said, do you employ the same level of skepticism to worldviews opposing Islam?

Do we really need utilitarian justifications for everything God has done?

From a secular/atheistic/non-religious perspective, wouldn’t you say that objective morality goes out the window (see link)?
Would you agree with Richard Dawkins where he admits that the belief that rape is wrong, is as arbitrary as us evolving 5 fingers rather than 6 (see min 6:00)? 
And yet the nerve he has to go on multiple media platforms and criticise Islam (primarily) only from a moral perspective!

 

And Allah knows best.

Edited December 22, 2020 by 313_Waiter

[khamosh21]

6 hours ago, dragonxx said:

would be a very repetitive book. it all boils down to the classic question of why does God allow evil?

In regards to your multiple wives issue, last I checked the average american has 6-8 extra-marital affairs during their lifetime, but you have no issue with that? Islam comes to limit this nonsense, but suddenly it becomes about islam allowing 4 wives while all these other religions and cultures allow 700.

get off your high horse

that's an assumption on your part...

also in Islam you can legally get away with multiple muta affairs, something take place these days... i know few men tht have slept with several women using muta laws.

the issue isn't allowing 4 or even more, i don't have issues with that, i think it's a good law ultimately, sadly most islamic cultures theses day accept only 1 marriage. my issue is that the Prophet is exempt from a law, that he essentially gets to break a law... additionally breaking this law is for the sake of a "mysterious" plan.

[theEndIsNear]

53 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

that's an assumption on your part...

also in Islam you can legally get away with multiple muta affairs, something take place these days... i know few men tht have slept with several women using muta laws.

the issue isn't allowing 4 or even more, i don't have issues with that, i think it's a good law ultimately, sadly most islamic cultures theses day accept only 1 marriage. my issue is that the Prophet is exempt from a law, that he essentially gets to break a law... additionally breaking this law is for the sake of a "mysterious" plan.

What happened to you? Years ago you used to be into spirituality and worship of God and love of ahlul bayt and here you are today reciprocating the argument the devil uses on the atheists to try to disrupt the faith of the weak believers

[AStruggler]

@khamosh21

Hey bro, I haven't read it myself yet, but I've read on this really cool blog/site (New? Start Here | The Muslim Theist - check it out, maybe it could answer some of your questions) that the book Divine Justice by Murtadha Mutahhari is really good...

From How to Never Get Tired of Learning | The Muslim Theist : 

• I remember as a teenager I went through a phase of tackling doubts about Islam, as most thinking Muslims do who grow up in the West. One of the most pertinent problems in my mind was the question of Divine justice. If Allah was All-Good, how could evil exist? Why did bad things happen to good people? Most importantly, why is this life so unfair? I would stay up at night pondering these questions, my heart writhing with pain, and I would beg Allah for an answer.

  These questions plagued my mind and heart and might have lead me to atheism were it not for chancing upon Shaheed Mutahhari’s book Divine Justice. This book was a difficult read for me, especially at that stage in my life when I had not yet developed the relevant philosophical background to be able to easily comprehend what he was saying. But, because Mutahhari is a gifted presenter of ideas, even I was able to understand the major arguments he put forward after I put in the effort.

  I had to use almost zero will-power to get myself to read that book. The reason was that I was burning with a desire for answers to my questions. I was having an existential crisis. I was doubting my Lord; or rather, I was looking to worship the Most-Just, who is the only God. I would put in all the work I needed to until I could get a satisfactory response.

 

Reading the above, looks like it might be a heavier read, but I found a Lecture series on it by a very qualified scholar from the UK, the reading would go great with the lecture series...

Divine Justice (Lecture 1) by Sheikh Dr Shomali, 22 Feb 2017 - YouTube

I hope you enjoy and find the above useful iA. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by AStruggler

[khamosh21]

14 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

I agree with you completely in terms of your argument but also disagree because I believe in Allah and al-Khidr is certainly not a mythical figure. 

The very reason why we cannot question Allah is not because of this flimsy and lackadaisical argument "God works in mysterious ways". This is coming only from those who do not know how to reason properly. Among the reasons we cannot question the plan of Allah is due to the fact that He knows everything and is All-Wise. You are a very limited being. I always use this example and I will use it here again. 

You do not possess the strength of a tiger nor stamina of a horse. You cannot see as far as the eagle nor is your memory better than that of an elephant or an orca. With all of these limitations, you cannot possibly think that your own reasoning and wisdom is limitless. 

Most things that atheists/agnosticists do is that they conflate Allah with every single problem of humanity. That is not how it works. Allah has created 3 types of categorical creatures: creatures that are made to do what Allah made them to do (animals), creatures that can only obey Allah (His angels), and creatures of the inbetween (humans). The latter has free will. Allah has given us free will to decide what to do with it. This is not His doing, but the doing of those He has created.

One could argue this: 
"If Allah hadn't created, we wouldn't have this problem to begin with!"
If "if" were a fifth, we'd all be drunk. Whatever is an "if" will always remain an "if" and you will have to deal with reality - the fact of the matter is much more great than worrying about this. It is evident that there is The Creator. You can question His motives when you see him, but you would probably want to be on the right side.

Nonetheless, as these innocent Muslims are being murdered and oppressed, they will enter Paradise. They get the reward of a martyr - immediate Paradise with no intermediaries nor will they be judged on the Day of Judgement. They will also be able to intercede for 70 of their family members, as well. Paradise is better than anything in this world and not even comparable, so what problem do you have with these people entering Paradise? Surely if you accept that Allah created this earth, you have to accept what He reveals upon mankind regarding this. This earth was not created for mere amusement, so Allah is not doing this without a reason. 

I'm sorry if this response is half-done. I'm very tired and did a lot today. If you need any further elaboration, let me know.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I only posted some of the questions as an example to show that logic doesn't seem to work all that well when we start comparing what has happened with humanity with what we are told God is like. Yes we have theories and some rationalizations, but these theories are subjective (obv imho). When we start taking stories from Quran, or Islamic laws, logic really doesn't work that well... sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. when it doesn't work, it's only than that people bring in our limitations and our inability to understand the world... when it works in their favor people use it.

I am not about to write all my issues, i have discussed them many times in few threads i've started in the past as well... also you are better of spending your time else rather than trying to convince me.

 

[khamosh21]

14 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

This did not happen nor was she 18. She was 6-7 when he married her and 9-10 at the time of consummation. Regardless, she and the rest of the people the Shi'a claim distorted the religion doesn't make sense historically. It doesn't make sense that the same people would die in prayer simply to distort the religion. 

The Messengers and Prophets of Allah are chosen and have special privileges. Allah favors them more. You also fail to mention how there were prayers made obligatory to him and that were a Shari'a prescribed to Allah from him in praying at night. There were things the Messenger did that were obligatory upon him and optional for us.

I'd love to hear more about what you have to say and answer to the best of my abilities. Could you respond and tell me all of the problems you have with Islam, Allah, the existence of the Creator, etc? I wouldn't mind reading it no matter how long it is.

This is the problem with history, and history that was written long time ago and has clearly been distorted many times over. I don't think any history is reliable, whether shia, sunni, non-muslim etc.

Yes some prayers were supposedly made obligatory for the Prophet... i don't find this to be comparable to marrying, what was it, 8 or 9 women...

thanks for your efforts, as mentioned in previous post, your time is better spent elsewhere.

 

 

[Nightclaw]

2 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I only posted some of the questions as an example to show that logic doesn't seem to work all that well when we start comparing what has happened with humanity with what we are told God is like. Yes we have theories and some rationalizations, but these theories are subjective (obv imho). When we start taking stories from Quran, or Islamic laws, logic really doesn't work that well... sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. when it doesn't work, it's only than that people bring in our limitations and our inability to understand the world... when it works in their favor people use it.

I am not about to write all my issues, i have discussed them many times in few threads i've started in the past as well... also you are better of spending your time else rather than trying to convince me.

 

I'm not trying to convince you. I'm trying to talk to you and understand where you're coming from. My father taught me that I should avoid speaking to people who listen to respond instead of listening to understand and that I should be a person who listens to understand.

Start a thread with one of the things you have a problem with and we can go from there. I genuinely want to see what problems you have.

Only Allah can convince and guide you. Not me. The most I can do is listen to you. 

[khamosh21]

9 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

That being said, do you employ the same level of skepticism to worldviews opposing Islam?

Do we really need utilitarian justifications for everything God has done?

From a secular/atheistic/non-religious perspective, wouldn’t you say that objective morality goes out the window (see link)?
Would you agree with Richard Dawkins where he admits that the belief that rape is wrong, is as arbitrary as us evolving 5 fingers rather than 6 (see min 6:00)? 
And yet the nerve he has to go on multiple media platforms and criticise Islam (primarily) only from a moral perspective!

For the first question, answer is yes.

Second, no. But I don't think we have a clear understanding of many things.

I don't agree with Dawkins.

[Nightclaw]

1 minute ago, khamosh21 said:

This is the problem with history, and history that was written long time ago and has clearly been distorted many times over. I don't think any history is reliable, whether shia, sunni, non-muslim etc.

Yes some prayers were supposedly made obligatory for the Prophet... i don't find this to be comparable to marrying, what was it, 8 or 9 women...

thanks for your efforts, as mentioned in previous post, your time is better spent elsewhere.

If you don't think history is reliable, then you may as well reject slavery, the Holocaust and everything else that has its impact on the world.

I know where to spend my time, brother. I am spending it well here. 

[khamosh21]

Just now, Nightclaw said:

If you don't think history is reliable, then you may as well reject slavery, the Holocaust and everything else that has its impact on the world.

I know where to spend my time, brother. I am spending it well here. 

lol, some people do deny the holocaust... that's what i mean, people can't even agree on things that took place less than 100 years ago, 1400 years is very long period of time.

Islamic history has mostly been distorted by both shias and sunnis... each side distorting it the way they like. i personally don't think we can ever really find out what happened during Islamic history to a degree which makes it certain.

 

[khamosh21]

10 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Start a thread with one of the things you have a problem with and we can go from there. I genuinely want to see what problems you have.

I don't recommend this, but you are welcome to go through my profile history and find some of the topics I started over past 2 years. I really don't recommend it.

[Nightclaw]

2 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Islamic history has mostly been distorted by both shias and sunnis... each side distorting it the way they like. i personally don't think we can ever really find out what happened during Islamic history to a degree which makes it certain.

This is where you're wrong. External sources, I mean non-Muslim, corroborate with what is written by the Sunnis. For example, Assyrians, Romans, Jews wrote about Islamic events. Not everything is contorted. If you truly believe that, then you'd need some pretty solid evidence providing otherwise. 

[Nightclaw]

2 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I don't recommend this, but you are welcome to go through my profile history and find some of the topics I started over past 2 years. I really don't recommend it.

Why don't you recommend it? 

[khamosh21]

Just now, Nightclaw said:

This is where you're wrong. External sources, I mean non-Muslim, corroborate with what is written by the Sunnis. For example, Assyrians, Romans, Jews wrote about Islamic events. Not everything is contorted. If you truly believe that, then you'd need some pretty solid evidence providing otherwise. 

i understand not "everything" of course... but generally many of the things that really matter. For example take one of the main issue, Imamate of Imam Ali...

additionally i find the similar problem with Quran - itself no distortion - but it's interpretation/tafsir, sky seems to be the limit.

[khamosh21]

3 minutes ago, Nightclaw said:

Why don't you recommend it? 

if i judge myself as an outsider, I don't think my doubts can be resolved unless some miracle happens.

[Nightclaw]

2 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

i understand not "everything" of course... but generally many of the things that really matter. For example take one of the main issue, Imamate of Imam Ali...

If anything, history proves this concept wrong. Logically, this is also wrong! Why would Allah make the first three leaders, one of the main wives of the Messenger evil, wicked people? What is the wisdom in that? Why would Allah make these people be close friends and always accompany the Messenger? Again, if these people were his staunch enemies, why would they risk their lives to spread this religion? Does ANYTHING in the Qur'an suggest this? Does anything in history suggest this? The answer is no!

5 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

i understand not "everything" of course... but generally many of the things that really matter. For example take one of the main issue, Imamate of Imam Ali...

additionally i find the similar problem with Quran - itself no distortion - but it's interpretation/tafsir, sky seems to be the limit.

Well, the Qur'an has a chronology to it. You need to look at the interpretation in that order. The sky is not the limit with the Qur'an, as not everything can be interpreted (i.e. the Night Journey).

5 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

if i judge myself as an outsider, I don't think my doubts can be resolved unless some miracle happens.

How am I supposed to solve these doubts if I cannot understand them? I have to know what you doubt and why, first and foremost. Solving them isn't what I'm trying to do nor can I. This power lies in the hand of Allah. I want to take steps before doing anything, and the first step I need to take is to understand you. 

[theEndIsNear]

2 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

if i judge myself as an outsider, I don't think my doubts can be resolved unless some miracle happens.

Quran says if disbelievers had seen all the miracles of the heavens they stilll wouldn’t believe,it’s not about miracles it’s about sincerity open heart truth seeking that u genuinely want the truth 

[khamosh21]

4 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

If anything, history proves this concept wrong. Logically, this is also wrong! Why would Allah make the first three leaders, one of the main wives of the Messenger evil, wicked people? What is the wisdom in that? Why would Allah make these people be close friends and always accompany the Messenger? Again, if these people were his staunch enemies, why would they risk their lives to spread this religion? Does ANYTHING in the Qur'an suggest this? Does anything in history suggest this? The answer is no!

couple of points .  yes exactly, why? why stop at these questions and the first 3 leaders... why the next leaders up until today are evil? why would God let people like muawiya and yazid rule? why bring the mahdi at end of days? why does God allow satan to misguide us? why why why. some things you have rationalized, those that we can't rationalize or understand, we provide filler answers:

1. we are limited, can't understand

2. It's God wisdom

3. God works in mysterious ways etc

here is an alternative explanation. maybe there is no God, and this is why Islam and all religions and ideologies are a total mess. followers over glorify their leaders. Sunnis glorify the companions. shia glorify the imams. sufis their saints. hindus their gurus. christians their popes. buddhist their bhuddas... etc the pattern goes on (until today), we take ordinary people and turn them into perfect or near perfect role models for ourselves. sprinkle some supernatural abilities and miracles, some fear of unprovable unseen things (like heaven and hell), and you have a good recipe to control people. is this not the case for religions you don't agree with?

[khamosh21]

4 hours ago, theEndIsNear said:

Quran says if disbelievers had seen all the miracles of the heavens they stilll wouldn’t believe,it’s not about miracles it’s about sincerity open heart truth seeking that u genuinely want the truth 

i don't literally mean i need a miracle... more figuratively, something big would need to happen to help resolve my doubts. 

[Zainuu]

10 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

i don't literally mean i need a miracle... more figuratively, something big would need to happen to help resolve my doubts. 

Wait for Imam Mehdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف)

[Zainuu]

10 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

i don't literally mean i need a miracle... more figuratively, something big would need to happen to help resolve my doubts. 

When people began to have doubts regarding judgement day and reviving of dead. Allah brought the people of the cave in front of people after 300 years.

They (people of the cave) needed a proof that how and  when Allah will fix remove oppression.

People, on the other hand, wanted to clear their doubts.

May Allah help you brother.