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In the Name of God بسم الله

Atheists, I want to know why you believe in what you believe in.

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Hi there. I know I haven't been posting in a while, but I finally thought of a good topic.

So, Atheists why are you in your religion???

PS: I'm not trying to trigger anyone so please don't attack me for making this topic:grin::worried:

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You are sidestepping the actual point I was making. It has nothing to do with being practical, it has to do with being consistent. If you believe in x (x could be anything, practical or impractical) b

I have an agnostic brother, and at least a couple of atheist friends (one was born in a strict Deobandi household). I have a couple of cousins who are militant atheists. I have tons of non-practicing

Well if you knew God's plan, you would be God now wouldn't you? What is the point of demanding all the knowledge God has, what then would separate a human from God? You speak about logic but

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4 minutes ago, ServantOfTheHousehold said:

Hi there. I know I haven't been posting in a while, but I finally thought of a good topic.

So, Atheists why are you in your religion???

PS: I'm not trying to trigger anyone so please don't attack me for making this topic:grin::worried:

Atheists don’t believe in anything impractical.  

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18 minutes ago, ServantOfTheHousehold said:

you mean miracles??

Something practical would be like believing in China by word of mouth or by photographs even though you haven’t actually been there, seen it for yourself.  It is practical because you kind of need to believe in it in order to carry along with the rest of society (economically, politically) you have to deal with “China”).  But one can easily doubt its existence.  Even if one once visited China and has come back, there is no proof that it exists anymore (or that it exists this very moment).  Even if one IS in “China” one can doubt whether they really ARE in China as It might simply “look like China” and it might simple be “called China”.  At this point however it becomes more and more IMPRACTICAL to doubt China (but it can still be doubted in principle).  Every thing that apparently exists can be subjected to doubt you know?  
 


 

 

Edited by eThErEaL
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3 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Something practical would be like believing in China by word of mouth or by photographs even though you haven’t actually been there, seen it for yourself.  It is practical because you kind of need to believe in it in order to carry along with the rest of society (economically, politically) you have to deal with “China”).  But one can easily doubt its existence.  Even if one once visited China and has come back, there is no proof that it exists anymore (or that it exists this very moment).  Even if one IS in “China” one can doubt whether they really ARE in China as It might simply “look like China” and it might simple be “called China”.  

soo things that don't seem real??

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6 minutes ago, ServantOfTheHousehold said:

Ok, so how does your belief give your life meaning?

which beliefs, I have all sorts of belief.

I believe that I can trust my memories to help me have a productive day.  For example, I wake up in the morning and have memories of what I do for a living.  I don't bother doubting this and asking for evidence, I simply just follow along without even questioning them.  And I find my memories useful in living!   

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8 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

which beliefs, I have all sorts of belief.

I believe that I can trust my memories to help me have a productive day.  For example, I wake up in the morning and have memories of what I do for a living.  I don't bother doubting this and asking for evidence, I simply just follow along without even questioning them.  And I find my memories useful in living!   

I'm going to ask you a question. Have you evere herd of the splitting of the moon??

 

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17 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I am about to give you a reply:   Yes.

ok youve heard of it.

we believe that prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) split the moon. To us that's proof. The crack is still there after more than 1400 years. Isnt that proof that islam is the religion to follow??

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Generalized Comment:  Back in the 50s and 60s, the mantra was that atheists only said they were atheists in order to show-off for themselves, that they really believed in 'something.'

l found this not to be true. The few l have come across really do not subscribe to any belief system. For a couple of them this will include a political belief system. For these few, "why you believe in what you believe in" really does not apply to them.

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7 hours ago, ServantOfTheHousehold said:

ok youve heard of it.

we believe that prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) split the moon. To us that's proof. The crack is still there after more than 1400 years. Isnt that proof that islam is the religion to follow??

No.  I don’t believe there is a crack on the moon right now and other such useless things.

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55 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

No.  I don’t believe there is a crack on the moon right now and other such useless things.

Salaam brother:bye: @eThErEaL

I have issues with this topic too. Yes, its in the Holy Quran, but i think what truly happened or what is being refered to is not known to us and may not necessarily be a literal physical splitting. Maybe someone here with a strong grasp in Arabic can tell us if theres anything in that ayatt that proves a literal, physical splitting or otherwise?

I know there are hadith regarding these ayatt, but my guess is that if they ARE rated as saheeh, or even hassan, that they really arent legit. There are hadith that fall into this situation, and people argue on and on in the forums about them and whether to take these hadith or to disgard them. And in this particular case, its pretty darn hard to disprove then disregard a hadith related to an event that really cant be practically proved by anyone, so people will accept them as there is no way to verify it because we cant all go to the moon and see this crack/seam/suture:confused:

Anything that can be seen online or even on tv these days can be faked. Everything from so called legit documents to pictures and video, so i pretty much dont put any trust in what is seen online.

If there ISNT anything scientifically documented of a seam or crack on the moon, people will claim this is not really true and will claim its a coverup to hide the truth of Islam.

 I dont know why pretty much everything needs to be attributed to a miracle or some type of special power.

(I dont mean anything bad to anyone here who believes the moon has evidence regarding the splitting ayatt, it very well could..im just saying that there may be more than one way of understanding this ayatt, especially since we believe the Holy Quran to be the unaltered word of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).)

 

Edited by shia farm girl
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2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

No.  I don’t believe there is a crack on the moon right now and other such useless things.

800px-Rima_Ariadaeus-1.jpg

That is a perfect/straight crack on the moon that goes for 300 Km. This doesn't just happen normally.

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6 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

That is a perfect/straight crack on the moon that goes for 300 Km. This doesn't just happen normally.

l am really skeptical. Do you have a reference?

l am not being dismissive because l in my life have always known about the canali(Italian word) on Mars, inshallah.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rille#/media/File:Rima_Ariadaeus-1.jpg

Rima Ariadaeus is categorized as a straight rille (graben) and is over 300 km in length.

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3 hours ago, Reza said:

Say an atheist believes we should build a bridge across the Atlantic Ocean. Is that practical? 

You call this a belief or a desire?

3 hours ago, shia farm girl said:

Salaam brother:bye: @eThErEaL

I have issues with this topic too. Yes, its in the Holy Quran, but i think what truly happened or what is being refered to is not known to us and may not necessarily be a literal physical splitting. Maybe someone here with a strong grasp in Arabic can tell us if theres anything in that ayatt that proves a literal, physical splitting or otherwise?

Wa alaykum salam,

While Islam dictates belief in the splitting of the Moon (I believe in it btw), I just don't feel the need to believe that there is a crack currently on the moon or that if there is a crack currently on the moon, I don't feel the need to believe it is due to it being split 1400 years ago.  Islam doesn't ask us to believe in the so called "proofs" for the splitting of the moon!  :)  

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL
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4 hours ago, shia farm girl said:

Salaam brother:bye: @eThErEaL

I have issues with this topic too. Yes, its in the Holy Quran, but i think what truly happened or what is being refered to is not known to us and may not necessarily be a literal physical splitting. Maybe someone here with a strong grasp in Arabic can tell us if theres anything in that ayatt that proves a literal, physical splitting or otherwise?

I know there are hadith regarding these ayatt, but my guess is that if they ARE rated as saheeh, or even hassan, that they really arent legit. There are hadith that fall into this situation, and people argue on and on in the forums about them and whether to take these hadith or to disgard them. And in this particular case, its pretty darn hard to disprove then disregard a hadith related to an event that really cant be practically proved by anyone, so people will accept them as there is no way to verify it because we cant all go to the moon and see this crack/seam/suture:confused:

Anything that can be seen online or even on tv these days can be faked. Everything from so called legit documents to pictures and video, so i pretty much dont put any trust in what is seen online.

If there ISNT anything scientifically documented of a seam or crack on the moon, people will claim this is not really true and will claim its a coverup to hide the truth of Islam.

 I dont know why pretty much everything needs to be attributed to a miracle or some type of special power.

(I dont mean anything bad to anyone here who believes the moon has evidence regarding the splitting ayatt, it very well could..im just saying that there may be more than one way of understanding this ayatt, especially since we believe the Holy Quran to be the unaltered word of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).)

I am of the view that there is no real mind independent external world. You know that age old question?:  "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" 

My answer is: There is no sound.  
 

everything that exists so far as we know is either in the form of

1) a sensation

2) a thought

3) or an emotion.

and truly speaking,

1) a sensation is nothing if there is no sensing of it.

2) a thought is nothing If there is no thinking of it

3) and an emotion is nothing of it is no feeling of it.  

So there is no mind independent external world.  If there is, it is nothing but something that exists in the form of a mere thought, and this thought depends on our thinking of it.  

So there are a lot of age old philosophical problems that collapse or that no longer arise the moment we understand that there truly is no such thing as a mind independent world. 
 

this whole issue of whether the moon actually split in two... is now a useless question because there is actually no mind independent world wherein the moon actually split into two.  There is no mind independent moon to begin with!  The splitting of the moon exists either as an idea, a feeling or a sensation.

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

I am of the view that there is no real mind independent external world. You know that age old question?:  "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" 

My answer is: There is no sound.  
 

everything that exists so far as we know is either in the form of

1) a sensation

2) a thought

3) or an emotion.

and truly speaking,

1) a sensation is nothing if there is no sensing of it.

2) a thought is nothing If there is no thinking of it

3) and an emotion is nothing of it is no feeling of it.  

So there is no mind independent external world.  If there is, it is nothing but something that exists in the form of a mere thought, and this thought depends on our thinking of it. 

 

You just implicitly denied that you believe in existence of God.

God existed before any limited human mind existed. Your mind is dependent on Him, not the other way round. If according to you a mind independent world doesn't exist, then the corollary, according to you, is that God doesn't exist. Is that correct?

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15 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

You just implicitly denied that you believe in existence of God.

God existed before any limited human mind existed. Your mind is dependent on Him, not the other way round. If according to you a mind independent world doesn't exist, then the corollary, according to you, is that God doesn't exist. Is that correct?

A mind (or mind stuff, like mental thoughts, sensing, and feeing) exists only within consciousness or awareness of it.  So, minds (mind-stuff) depends on consciousness.  Consciousness is not limited to any particular mind or to minds.  When you are in deep sleep, there literally is NO MIND.  But there is consciousness and the proof of there being consciousness in deep sleep is simply because there is certainty of there being no mind (there is certainty of deep sleep occurring)!  A certainty is awareness!  So, either there is consciousness of mind or there is consciousness of no-mind.  In both cases there is still consciousness.  Consciousness is eternal and boundless.  It is another name for reality or Being as such.      

And God is consciousness / awareness!

But again, I don't believe in a world independent of minds.  It is a useless belief.

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On 11/10/2020 at 12:32 AM, ServantOfTheHousehold said:

Hi there. I know I haven't been posting in a while, but I finally thought of a good topic.

So, Atheists why are you in your religion???

PS: I'm not trying to trigger anyone so please don't attack me for making this topic:grin::worried:

 

I am not an atheist, but getting quite close to it... I was born shia Muslim in a practicing family, was fairly practicing myself, but roughly 5 6 years ago I started having many doubts.

I do not consider atheism a religion or set of beliefs. My problem is with being forced to believe in the imaginary. I don't ask to be able to see God, I understand He can't be seen. My primary issue is in having to "believe" in everything that falls under the category of unseen "angels, jinn, heaven, hell, barzakh, reality of actions, soul... etc".

The China example isn't that bad actually. In reality China does not exist, I do not believe in the country of China. China is an imaginary man made concept - what exists is a piece of land that humans have agreed to call China and set up artificial borders. Seen from above earth, one would just see land, mountains etc. But since it is helpful to have this artificially made "country" - we all go along with it.

Take death as an example... the evidence that our time of death is "written" or fixed time is imaginary just as much as China. Life expectancy and statistics are correlated to many things. Our deaths can be a result of a number of factors including genes, quality of life, medicine, exercise etc. However to help people feel good about deaths, we need to imagine there is fixed time for all of us. So like China, it helps to buy into these beliefs.

I've discussed my issues with religion many times over on this forum, I'll just refer you to this post as a summary:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235068594-atheism/?do=findComment&comment=3319159

 

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I am of the view that there is no real mind independent external world. You know that age old question?:  "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" 

My answer is: There is no sound.  
 

everything that exists so far as we know is either in the form of

1) a sensation

2) a thought

3) or an emotion.

and truly speaking,

1) a sensation is nothing if there is no sensing of it.

2) a thought is nothing If there is no thinking of it

3) and an emotion is nothing of it is no feeling of it.  

So there is no mind independent external world.  If there is, it is nothing but something that exists in the form of a mere thought, and this thought depends on our thinking of it.  

So there are a lot of age old philosophical problems that collapse or that no longer arise the moment we understand that there truly is no such thing as a mind independent world. 
 

this whole issue of whether the moon actually split in two... is now a useless question because there is actually no mind independent world wherein the moon actually split into two.  There is no mind independent moon to begin with!  The splitting of the moon exists either as an idea, a feeling or a sensation.

for me above post, and many of your other posts are sophistry, although I don't think yours is intentional. I find your posts to make as much sense to me as calculus did when I had no understanding of it

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20 hours ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

800px-Rima_Ariadaeus-1.jpg

That is a perfect/straight crack on the moon that goes for 300 Km. This doesn't just happen normally.

Shouldn't the crack cover the entire diameter of the moon if it was split into 2? not just 1/18th of the diameter?

In this picture this looks nothing like a "crack":

Rima_Ariadaeus_as10-30-4450.jpg

It's like me saying the earth was split into 2 and showing you the crand canyon or some other fault line and claiming "this doesn't just happen normally". Get real bro.

These stories could be as true as mormon or santa stories.

So I agree with Ethereal, this is useless.

Edited by khamosh21
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9 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Shouldn't the crack cover the entire diameter of the moon if it was split into 2? not just 1/18th of the diameter?

In this picture this looks nothing like a "crack":

Rima_Ariadaeus_as10-30-4450.jpg

It's like me saying the earth was split into 2 and showing you the crand canyon or some other fault line and claiming "this doesn't just happen normally". Get real bro.

These stories could be as true as mormon or santa stories.

So I agree with Ethereal, this is useless.

Ok what ever you think, I won't force you to believe.

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12 minutes ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Ok what ever you think, I won't force you to believe.

you won't force me to believe. it's not even possible even if you wanted to... that is the nature of beliefs, they can't be forced. however bring in the threat of hell, pascal's wager, and you have people believing in the imaginary due to an imaginary threat.

it's like using the fake threat of terrorism as an excuse to invade your country, only religion invades your mind and thoughts.

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5 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

you won't force me to believe. it's not even possible even if you wanted to... that is the nature of beliefs, they can't be forced. however bring in the threat of hell, pascal's wager, and you have people believing in the imaginary due to an imaginary threat.

it's like using the fake threat of terrorism as an excuse to invade your country, only religion invades your mind and thoughts.

Brother, I know its not possible if I wanted to because even if I prove That I am right you won't change, your eyes are not open to see the truth.

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