Can we really say Saddam and oppressive Muslim leaders will be punished?

[Labbayka 82]

Let me just put a few things out there

 

-I am not Iraqi

-I’m not justifying Saddams rule

But a question on my mind about Allah’s mercy has always been this. Say for example a man like Saddam for example, Gadaffi etc all had genuine belief in God, and they actually wanted to help there people but had to use cruel methods to achieve as such, would Allah punish them? I know Saddam attacked Karbala in 1991 and had the issue with the Kurds but if the battles of Jamal etc can be excused by some could Saddams actions be excused by some especially for the big picture which was to gain a control on h
 

 

Some countries I think it is justifiable for the rulers to have a tight grip, look at what has happened to Libya and Iraq post Saddam and Gaddafi for example, I’ve even seen Shias argue FOR Saddam online, would Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) recognise these actions are necessary if that’s why there intentions were or would they be punished for not pushing God law on earth?

[Labbayka 82]

Sorry if my question if a bit loaded but it’s thoughts like these that go through my mind every single minute 

[MohammadAli1993 288]

57 minutes ago, Labbayka said:

Sorry if my question if a bit loaded but it’s thoughts like these that go through my mind every single minute 

Sadam was a tyrant. I suggest you do some research and then you realise what a Son of Yazid he was. 

[MohammadAli1993 288]

The battle of Jamal excused? What do u mean 

[Gaius I. Caesar 8,689]

Well, the Shia that support and argue for Saddam are either naive, young and don't remember him or  simply traitors. There are members who were affected by Saddam Hussein and  I don't see how Saddam could be forgiven for having Baqir al-Sadr (رضي الله عنه) tortured  and then executed.

I also suggest you read about the evil he inflicted on the Shias of Iraq  and stop entertaining such thoughts.

[Labbayka 82]

But we are told God is most forgiving, and the Sunnis excuse jamal

[Sirius_Bright 4,386]

1 hour ago, Labbayka said:

But we are told God is most forgiving, and the Sunnis excuse jamal

God is most forgiving but he will only forgive oppressors if the oppressed has forgiven them (Huquq un-naas). And if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgives people like Saddam and Yazid and Omar and likes then rest of humanity doesn't have more sin than them and in that case no one is going to Jahannam. 

[Labbayka 82]

I find the Shia position problematic. If you support Assad who does the same thing

[Gaius I. Caesar 8,689]

4 hours ago, Labbayka said:

But we are told God is most forgiving, and the Sunnis excuse jamal

It doesn't matter, just because something is excused, doesn't make it good or right. The Sunnis are also told that whoever disobeys  their ruler, they also disobey Muhammad (sawas) and by extension, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Fighting in Jamal against Ali (عليه السلام) was kufr.

Quote

It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

“Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, And whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah. Whoever obeys the ruler, obeys me, and whoever disobeys the ruler, disobeys me.”

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، وَعَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، قَالاَ حَدَّثَنَا وَكِيعٌ، حَدَّثَنَا الأَعْمَشُ، عَنْ أَبِي صَالِحٍ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ وَمَنْ عَصَانِي فَقَدْ عَصَى اللَّهَ وَمَنْ أَطَاعَ الإِمَامَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَنِي وَمَنْ عَصَى الإِمَامَ فَقَدْ عَصَانِي ‏"‏ ‏.‏

Vol. 4, Book 24, Hadith 2859

^ From their favorite narrator. Sunnis don't get to decide which of the Sahaba should be forgiven or not; That is strictly in the domain of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

1 hour ago, Labbayka said:

I find the Shia position problematic. If you support Assad who does the same thing

Actually, I don't support National Socialist wannabe politicians like Saddam or Assad. Those are secular ideas that nothing to do with Islam, Assad makes panders himself to the Shias for more political support and power.

I support only the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)...

Edited November 6, 2020 by Gaius I. Caesar

[Labbayka 82]

58 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

It doesn't matter, just because something is excused, doesn't make it good or right. The Sunnis are also told that whoever disobeys  their ruler, they also disobey Muhammad (sawas) and by extension, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Fighting in Jamal against Ali (عليه السلام) was kufr.

^ From their favorite narrator. Sunnis don't get to decide which of the Sahaba should be forgiven or not; That is strictly in the domain of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Actually, I don't support National Socialist wannabe politicians like Saddam or Assad. Those are secular ideas that nothing to do with Islam, Assad makes panders himself to the Shias for more political support and power.

I support only the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)...

I agree, do you support Iran?

[eThErEaL 3,085]

By the way, Saddam said the Shahadah before he was executed.  
 

God certainly forgives everything for there is nothing too great for Him not to forgive.

[Hassu93 335]

9 hours ago, Labbayka said:

But we are told God is most forgiving, and the Sunnis excuse jamal

God is also the mosy Just. You just can't commit the most terrible crimes in humanity and just believe you'd be forgiven.

[Sirius_Bright 4,386]

3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

By the way, Saddam said the Shahadah before he was executed.  
 

God certainly forgives everything for there is nothing too great for Him not to forgive.

Pharaoh accepted Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) just before drowning. 

[Sirius_Bright 4,386]

8 hours ago, Labbayka said:

I find the Shia position problematic. If you support Assad who does the same thing

Anyone who oppresses is an oppressor. Be it Assad or a shia scholar. 

[Diaz 1,255]

12 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Pharaoh accepted Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) just before drowning. 

I wanted to mention this to him but after few seconds, I like nah no need.

 

12 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Anyone who oppresses is an oppressor. Be it Assad or a shia scholar. 

Any people who support them as well. 

[Gaius I. Caesar 8,689]

4 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

By the way, Saddam said the Shahadah before he was executed.  
 

God certainly forgives everything for there is nothing too great for Him not to forgive.

Pharaoh repented before he drowned but it was too little, too late.

Quote

۞ وَجَـٰوَزْنَا بِبَنِىٓ إِسْرَٰٓءِيلَ ٱلْبَحْرَ فَأَتْبَعَهُمْ فِرْعَوْنُ وَجُنُودُهُۥ بَغْيًۭا وَعَدْوًا ۖ حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَآ أَدْرَكَهُ ٱلْغَرَقُ قَالَ ءَامَنتُ أَنَّهُۥ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلَّذِىٓ ءَامَنَتْ بِهِۦ بَنُوٓا۟ إِسْرَٰٓءِيلَ وَأَنَا۠ مِنَ ٱلْمُسْلِمِينَ

ءَآلْـَٔـٰنَ وَقَدْ عَصَيْتَ قَبْلُ وَكُنتَ مِنَ ٱلْمُفْسِدِينَ

فَٱلْيَوْمَ نُنَجِّيكَ بِبَدَنِكَ لِتَكُونَ لِمَنْ خَلْفَكَ ءَايَةًۭ ۚ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًۭا مِّنَ ٱلنَّاسِ عَنْ ءَايَـٰتِنَا لَغَـٰفِلُونَ

And We took the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers pursued them in tyranny and enmity until, when drowning overtook him, he said, "I believe that there is no deity except that in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of the Muslims." Now? And you had disobeyed [Him] before and were of the corrupters? So today We will save you in body that you may be to those who succeed you a sign. And indeed, many among the people, of Our signs, are heedless. (10:90-92)

Quote

وَلَيْسَتِ ٱلتَّوْبَةُ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ ٱلسَّيِّـَٔاتِ حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا حَضَرَ أَحَدَهُمُ ٱلْمَوْتُ قَالَ إِنِّى تُبْتُ ٱلْـَٔـٰنَ وَلَا ٱلَّذِينَ يَمُوتُونَ وَهُمْ كُفَّارٌ ۚ أُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ أَعْتَدْنَا لَهُمْ عَذَابًا أَلِيمًۭا

But repentance is not [accepted] of those who [continue to] do evil deeds up until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "Indeed, I have repented now," or of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment. (4:18)

We can safely say that Saddam's shahadah was not accepted. Let's not normalize him, he was a murderous tyrant  and deserved to die like the animal he was. 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Gaius I. Caesar

[YoungSkiekh313 209]

Salam,

This is an interesting question. Does Allah forgive an oppressor ? You have also brought up some factors such as an oppressor being a muslim, and also an oppressor who recites the shahada before he dies. 

Firstly, an oppressor must repent, and ask forgiveness from the people they have oppressed, and then they will be forgiven by Allah. This tradition is accepted by both Sunni, and Shia's, and thus why backbiting/oppression is considered worse than adultery. You see this example when Hurr discovered the errors of his way, and ask forgiveness from Imam Hussain, in which Imam Hussain forgave Hurr, and informed him Allah had forgiven him as well. 

Secondly, you brought up the battle of Jamal in which Aisha, the prophet of the wife, developed a uprise against the caliph of the time , Imam Ali. I won't get into the story of the battle of the camel as it's quite lengthy, but, essentially Aisha, that many narrations suggest conspired/influenced the assassination of Uthman attempted to pin it all on Imam Ali. Firstly, no matter how you put it, rising up against the divine government of Allah cannot be forgiven. Aisha led many of the prophets OWN companions astray, and strengthened the Sunni/Shia divide that we are now facing. It also does not help Aisha's case that she stopped Imam Hasan from being buried next to the Prophet, and enabled people to fire arrows into his coffin.......... that's a big no no. Also, I saw an Abu Hurraria narration, never, and I mean never quote Abu Hurraria, he is the most unreliable narrator you can narrate from. Here's a narration from the Quran that expresses the faith of those who support oppressors "and do not incline to those who are unjust, lest the fire touch you, and you have no guardians besides Allah, then you shall not be helped", and another one : "and do not help one another in sin and oppression, and be careful of your duty to Allah, surely Allah is server in requiting evil" - Al Maida 5:2. It's important to mention that oppression is things such as backbiting, destroying ones property/possessions, treating someone unjustly, abusing ones rights, taking the authority of the rightly guided Imams, and etc....

Heres a quote by Imam Ali : “By Allah, I would rather spend the night in wakefulness on the thorns of as-Sa’dan (a plant having sharp [Edited Out]les) than to meet Allah and His Messenger on the Day of Judgment as an oppressor against any one or a usurper of anything out of the worldly wealth. And how can I oppress any one for the sake of a self that hurriedly goes towards its destruction and shall remain under the earth for a long time….By Allah, even if I am given all the seven districts (or continents) with all there is under their skies that I may disobey Allah in extorting a crust of a barley grain from an ant, I would never do.” -Nahj al-Balaghah, sermon 215.

Anyways, Saddam Hussain was a tyrant, and oppressor that did not care for the value of life. He killed, tortured, raped, and stole the wealth of the nation. Being a muslim is not a golden ticket into jannah, nor is reciting the shahada before death a sign of being a saint. Everyone , including Shias will be judged accordingly to the good deeds they did in this dunya, and their own actions. You cannot simply sin your whole life, and on your death bed simply ask for repentance, you will still be punished for your sins. Of course, Allah is the best of judges, but do not confuse his mercy as a loop hole to justify these scums of the earth as god fearing men who had to do what they had to do to rule a country, and in the end Allah will judge them... that not how it works my friend. We Shia will speak out against these scums, and will continue to call out against injustice until our final Imam arrives. 

Edited November 6, 2020 by YoungSkiekh313

[eThErEaL 3,085]

12 hours ago, Hassu93 said:

God is also the mosy Just. You just can't commit the most terrible crimes in humanity and just believe you'd be forgiven.

No No No!

but you can commit the most terrible crime in humanity and sincerely turn to God for forgiveness and you can EXPECT God to forgive you!

 

in fact YOU must expect God to forgive you!  Not expecting God to forgive you is a sin.

in any case.  Shias have such a a difficult time grasping this in general, I don’t blame you.  

 

This idea that there is. I hope for someone is all nonsense... and satanic I must add.  
 

so if you backbite someone you have to go and tell that person you spoke bad about him?  What if by you telling him that you know that it will just cause unnecessary resentment and grudges? Sometimes the best thing is to simply pray for the brother/sister and speak good things about him or her.   Anything that is harmful should be avoided at all costs.  Sometimes telling someone the truth about something is harmful and so it is alright to lie in those cases.  The problem with people nowadays is this moralistic attitude that is not based on any real principles like harm and benefit.  

Edited November 7, 2020 by eThErEaL

[Gaius I. Caesar 8,689]

26 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

No No No!

but you can commit the most terrible crime in humanity and sincerely turn to God for forgiveness and you can EXPECT God to forgive you!

 

in fact YOU must expect God to forgive you!  Not expecting God to forgive you is a sin.

in any case.  Shias have such a a difficult time grasping this in general, I don’t blame you.  

Are you sure about that? Sounds like you're getting us mixed up with the Christians. Allah forgives every sin except for shirk and when the person has committed sins throughout their life and still expects Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to forgive them at death's door.

[eThErEaL 3,085]

5 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Are you sure about that? Sounds like you're getting us mixed up with the Christians. Allah forgives every sin except for shirk and when the person has committed sins throughout their life and still expects Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to forgive them at death's door.

Yes.  Except for shirk.  Seeing a sin too big for God to forgive is shirk.  FYI.

If Someone commits a sin all throughout his or her life and then sincerely turns to God, not only does God simply forgive but He actually loves that.  

Edited November 7, 2020 by eThErEaL

[YoungSkiekh313 209]

7 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Yes.  Except for shirk.  Seeing a sin too big for God to forgive is shirk.  FYI.

If Someone commits a sin all throughout his or her life and then sincerely turns to God, not only does God simply forgive but He actually loves that.  

Although this is true, God also is the best of judges. If one kills innocent people all throughout his life, and or violates the rights of people all throughout his life, would you consider it just for Allah/God to forgive this person? Would this be true justice? Yes, God may forgive this person, or lesson his punishment if it's sincere remorse, but he will ultimately still face the punishment of the crimes he committed in this world. The punishment may be reduced, but it will still take place. 

Similar, if you go to court for example assault, admit to the assault, and take full responsibility for your actions- the judge will take this REMORSE into consideration when deciding on the best punishment for your actions.... the judge/family may have forgiven you, but you still have to face the punishment for a crime you committed. In this world, sins are crimes agains Allah, and his divine laws. If you sin, depending on the sin Allah will forgiven you, but it won't erase the fact that this sin took place, you will still be accountable to speak on it before Allah on the day of judgement.... being forgiven does not ultimately mean you won't be punished. 

This is why we have the the pains of death, the testing during the first night in the grave, the squeezing of the grave, and barazkh.... no matter what, when we die we will have sin to be accountable for.... and Allah's mercy has given us paths to be punished before judgement day as mentioned earlier.....

 

[Guest haydar]

This is an ancient debate and is to do with how the grave sinner (al-fasiq) is classified in Islam. As a Zaydi we believe that the grave sinner (fasiq/fajir) will be punished in hell forever if they do not repent. This is to do with Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) promise of divine reward and divine punishment. Repentence is usually an acknowledgement and action to make the previous wrongs right. If we do not see an example of this then we cannot automatically assume that the person has repented! That being said, it is within the knowledge of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and we can only go off what we can see. From what I understand about Saddam, he was a tyrant leader who ruled through fear and ruthlessness. Allah says in the Quran that the fasiq and fajirs will be in hell, and from a Zaydi understanding being Muslim is not a get out of jail free card. This understanding came from early Sunni sects and Jewish beliefs that they would only abide in the hell for a certain amount of time. Allah refutes this notion below:

And they say: Fire shall not touch us but for a few days. Say: Have you received a promise or contract from Allah? Then Allah will not fail to perform His promise, or do you speak against Allah what you do not know? (Quran 2:8)

The promise is discussed in the next verse which is the divine promise of reward/threat quoted above. In summary one would have to demonstrate level of Saddam's fisq to answer the question. I would imagine this is quite easy to prove however Allah knows his final detination, but there is no reason to assume it would be heaven just because we do not know! To re-iterate it is a Jewish/Sunni belief that Muslims will somehow be exempted from the promise of Allah for divine reward and punishment.. (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ...

[eThErEaL 3,085]

On 11/7/2020 at 12:22 PM, YoungSkiekh313 said:

being forgiven does not ultimately mean you won't be punished. 

 

How do you live with such a depressing thought?  Like really?

 

 

[Ibn Al-Shahid 1,932]

On 11/6/2020 at 8:55 AM, Labbayka said:

But we are told God is most forgiving, and the Sunnis excuse jamal

But Allah is also just.

[lissenma 73]

an amigo of mine told me saddam didn't die. I don't what happened.

[YoungSkiekh313 209]

8 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 

How do you live with such a depressing thought?  Like really?

 

 

It's not a depressing thought, nor does it have to be. 

If you are fulfilling the expectations set by Allah such as doing good deeds, following the wajibats, and being a decent human being on this Earth, then you really do not have to worry ... nor do you have to be depressed. However, if you are living the lifestyle of say Saddam Hussain, Gadafi, and oppressors then I think you should reconsider your actions before the angel of death meets you with a Salam. 

Anyways, is punishment for ones sins a reality, yes... it's in our Quran, and from the prophet/Imams traditions... can it be avoided... yes, can the punishment be limited/reduced... yes...... at the end of the day we will all be punished for our sins to an extend... we've all sinned, we've all done things that Allah has told us not to do... but, the doors of repentance is always open, and allah is quite merciful . So knowing this, yah it sucks I'll be punished, and yes I deserve it for sinning, but at least I know the extend of my punished will be reduced due to my good deeds/repentance. 

Expecting yourself not be punished is a disservice to yourself, and Allah. At the end of the day just be a decent person, and you should get a decent reward after death...