A 'Sahih' narration on The Attack on Fatima?

[MaisumAli]

Salam un Alaykum!

While surfing the web I came across this brilliant blog by a Shia brother who presents an authentic narration on the attack on Fatima(عليه السلام), I will post the tradition and the link to the blog so you can check the authenticity of the reporters:

 

43 / 43 – حدثني أبو الحسين محمد بن هارون بن موسى التلعكبري، قال:

 

The chain:

 

حدثني أبي، قال: حدثني  أبو علي محمد بن همام بن سهيل (رضي الله عنه)، قال: روى أحمد ابن محمد بن البرقي، عن أحمد بن محمد الأشعري القمي، عن عبد الرحمن بن أبي نجران (3)، عن عبد الله بن سنان، عن ابن مسكان، عن أبي بصير، عن أبي عبد الله جعفر بن محمد (عليه السلام)، قال:

 

The tradition:

 

وكان سبب وفاتها أن قنفذا مولى عمر لكزها بنعل السيف بأمره، فأسقطت محسنا ومرضت من ذلك مرضا شديدا، ولم تدع أحدا ممن آذاها يدخل عليها .

 

Abu Baseer narrates from Imam Jafar Sadiq asws that Bibi Fatima asws died on 3rd of last jamadi on Tuesday, 11th hijri ; and the cause of her death was that Qunfuz, slave of Umar hit her with handle of sword and that resulted in abortion of Hazrat Mohsin asws; and She fell severely ill; and those who had hurt her, she did not allow any of them to come to her house.

 

https://ahlubait.wordpress.com/2010/11/22/bibi-fatima-asws-was-martyred-by-order-of-umar-sahih-shia-narration/

 

 

Is this chain impeccable? Is their any controversial narrators in the chain?

Edited November 4, 2020 by MaisumAli

[Ali bin Hussein]

The hadith is taken from the book.

Dalail-ul-imama; Mohammad bin Jurair Tibri

There is an opinion that this book  has an unknown author and date of being written. (See wiki shia)

Therefore it can not be relied upon has the hadith and chain could be a forgery 

 

[Ali bin Hussein]

On a side not the main source is the book of Qais, which many scholars have casts doubts on.

I believe Ayatullah Fadullah has stated there is not a single authentic chain on the incident.

In Zaidiya our scholars have stated Bibi Fatima died of natural causes.  

Edited November 5, 2020 by Warilla

[MaisumAli]

Thanks for the input!

 

But what do you think of this narration:

 

'Cursed is the person, cursed is he who oppresses my daughter Fatima(سلام الله عليها) after me and usurps her right and murders her.' He then said: 'O Fatima, glad tidings for you, for there is a high rank for you in front of Allah, you will intercede with that position for those who love you and for your Shia and Allah will accept your intercession. O Fatima, if every Prophet(عليهم السلام) that Allah has sent and every Angel that Allah has given a high rank intercede for every person who hates you, who has usurped your right, Allah will never take him out of the Hellfire.'

 

The chain:

And among what has been narrated is that which our Sheikh, the Jurist, Abul Hasan Ibn Shadhaan narrated to us, he said: narrated to me my father, may Allah bless his soul, who said: narrated to us Ibn Al-Walid, Mohammad Ibn Al-Hasan, saying: narrated to us Al-Saffaar from Mohammad Ibn Al-Husain who said: narrated to us Mohammad Ibn Ziyad from Al-Mufaddal Ibn Umar from Yunus Ibn Ya'qub, may Allah be pleased with him, who said: I heard As-Sadiq, Ja'far Ibn Mohammad(عليهما السلام) saying:

 

Kanzul Fawahid, Vol. 1 Pg. 149-151

 

Sayyid Sadiq al Rouhani has termed this narration as authentic

 

The only controversial person in this chain seems to be  'Al-Mufaddal Ibn Umar', who was member of the Khattabi sect then came back and reverted

 

While I know that Najasi weakened him, Greats such as Al Mufid(rh) and Al Khoei(If I recall correctly) have authenticated him

 

 

 

Also here is a Sahih tradition of the Imam(عليه السلام) saying Fatima(sa) was a martyr:

 

Muhammad in Yahya has narrated from al-‘Amrakiy ibn Ali from Ali ibn Ja‘far from his brother from abu al-Hassan ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following. “Fatima is truthful and a martyr.

 

Al Kafi, V 1, Kitab al Hujjah, Ch 114, h 2

 

Allamah Majlisi: صحيح

 

 https://thaqalayn.net/chapter/1/4/114

[Labbayka]

1 hour ago, Warilla said:

On a side not the main source is the book of Qais, which many scholars have casts doubts on.

I believe Ayatullah Fadullah has stated there is not a single authentic chain on the incident.

In Zaidiya our scholars have stated Bibi Fatima died of natural causes.  

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235067407-identifying-sulaym-ibn-qays/

[F.M]

On 11/4/2020 at 5:52 PM, MaisumAli said:

Salam un Alaykum!

While surfing the web I came across this brilliant blog by a Shia brother who presents an authentic narration on the attack on Fatima(عليه السلام), I will post the tradition and the link to the blog so you can check the authenticity of the reporters:

 

43 / 43 – حدثني أبو الحسين محمد بن هارون بن موسى التلعكبري، قال:

 

The chain:

 

حدثني أبي، قال: حدثني  أبو علي محمد بن همام بن سهيل (رضي الله عنه)، قال: روى أحمد ابن محمد بن البرقي، عن أحمد بن محمد الأشعري القمي، عن عبد الرحمن بن أبي نجران (3)، عن عبد الله بن سنان، عن ابن مسكان، عن أبي بصير، عن أبي عبد الله جعفر بن محمد (عليه السلام)، قال:

 

The tradition:

 

وكان سبب وفاتها أن قنفذا مولى عمر لكزها بنعل السيف بأمره، فأسقطت محسنا ومرضت من ذلك مرضا شديدا، ولم تدع أحدا ممن آذاها يدخل عليها .

 

Abu Baseer narrates from Imam Jafar Sadiq asws that Bibi Fatima asws died on 3rd of last jamadi on Tuesday, 11th hijri ; and the cause of her death was that Qunfuz, slave of Umar hit her with handle of sword and that resulted in abortion of Hazrat Mohsin asws; and She fell severely ill; and those who had hurt her, she did not allow any of them to come to her house.

 

https://ahlubait.wordpress.com/2010/11/22/bibi-fatima-asws-was-martyred-by-order-of-umar-sahih-shia-narration/

 

 

Is this chain impeccable? Is their any controversial narrators in the chain?

even in bible its mentionend.. so if muslims dont belief their own books then I dont have words for them, coz its even mentionend in bible that Fatima al zahra  as ,would get killed and leading to a miscarriage.. ALSO mentioned that that the guy who killed her will mislead lots of people to hell

[F.M]

2 hours ago, Warilla said:

On a side not the main source is the book of Qais, which many scholars have casts doubts on.

I believe Ayatullah Fadullah has stated there is not a single authentic chain on the incident.

In Zaidiya our scholars have stated Bibi Fatima died of natural causes.  

bible mentions that incident too! there is no way people trying to hide it! every religion knows about ahlalbayt including hinduism,  everyone knows that fatima al zahra would get KILLED.. an her killer is the one who misleads lots of people and bringing them to HELL.. 

[MaisumAli]

In the Bible? Where?

[Ali bin Hussein]

1 hour ago, MaisumAli said:

Thanks for the input!

 

But what do you think of this narration:

I'm not a scholar So i can't really comment to much on chains 

But in general I don't put much thought into 12er hadiths as I have a general distrust of the books and scholars. 

I think for you as a 12er it's probably best to ask your scholars.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Warilla

[MaisumAli]

8 minutes ago, Warilla said:

I'm not a scholar So i can't really comment to much on chains 

But in general I don't put much thought into 12er hadiths as I have a general distrust of the books and scholars. 

I think for you as a 12er it's probably best to ask your scholars.

Lol yeah I kinda forgot that you are Zaidi, but if I may, what are your Hadith collections and who are your scholars?

[Ali bin Hussein]

8 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

Lol yeah I kinda forgot that you are Zaidi, but if I may, what are your Hadith collections and who are your scholars?

Musnad imam Zaid,  Musnad Imam Raza, Amali bin Isa are partly translated. Then there are other collections. But the hadith body is small.

Zaidi rely alot on consensus of scholars from Ahlulbayt (direct descendants from Imam Hassan or Hussain) as these are "chains" based on father teaching son going back to Imam Ali and ultimately Rasool 

I follow Hadawi fiqh which is based upon rulings and fiqh from Imam Hadi. There are many Arab speaking scholars in Yemen but no current Imam.

[MaisumAli]

Wow that's interesting, I never really knew much about the Zaidia sect

 

50 minutes ago, Warilla said:

Musnad imam Zaid

 

50 minutes ago, Warilla said:

Musnad Imam Raza

Are these Imams(عليه السلام) you refer to our Imams? Like The 4th and 8th Imams? Also who is the current living Imam for the Zaidia?

 

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by MaisumAli

[Ali bin Hussein]

23 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

Wow that's interesting, I never really knew much about the Zaidia sect

 

 

Are these Imams(عليه السلام) you refer to our Imams? Like The 4th and 8th Imams? Also who is the current living Imam for the Zaidia?

 

 

Yes as in Imam Ali Razza your 8 th imam.

Imam Zaid was the son of Imam Zainulabideen and Brother if Imam Baqir.

No there is no current Zaidi Imam. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Warilla

[MohammadAli1993]

4 hours ago, F.M said:

even in bible its mentionend.. so if muslims dont belief their own books then I dont have words for them, coz its even mentionend in bible that Fatima al zahra  as ,would get killed and leading to a miscarriage.. ALSO mentioned that that the guy who killed her will mislead lots of people to hell

Id be very thrilled if you could kindly share such a passage in the Bible

Jazakallah 

[F.M]

On 11/5/2020 at 6:14 PM, MaisumAli said:

In the Bible? Where?

lots of things are as always written in metaphorical sentances.. also if i dont mistaken there was also a pupit of one of our holy imam talking about bible etc.. and the imam replied that this verse is talking about fatima al zahra..

actually the entire ahlalbayt is mentionend in bible as well 

i have marked the most important parts..

-------

The Woman Giving Birth and the Dragon -Revelation 12

12 And then a great wonder appeared in heaven: There was a woman who was clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet. She had a crown of twelve stars on her head. ² She was pregnant and cried out with pain because she was about to give birth. (there was a hadith of an imam masoom telling that the meaning of this verse means, fatima al zahra who is clothed with the sun, her dad is the moon, her husband and her progeny are the stars/ 12 imams)

³ Then another wonder appeared in heaven: There was a giant red dragon there. The dragon had seven heads with a crown on each head.(the enemies of ahlalbayt) It also had ten horns. ⁴ Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and threw them down to the earth. It stood in front of the woman who was ready to give birth to the baby.( umar stood infront of her and pushed also her door against her pregnant belly) It wanted to eat the woman’s baby as soon as it was born. ( umar hitted her so that muhsin as would die)

⁵ The woman gave birth to a son (mohsin as, right?), who would rule all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was taken up to God and to his throne. ⁶ The woman ran away into the desert to a place that God had prepared for her. There she would be taken care of for 1260 days.

⁷ Then there was a war in heaven. Michael^[a] and his angels fought against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back, ⁸ but they were not strong enough. The dragon and its angels lost their place in heaven. ⁹ It was thrown down out of heaven. (This giant dragon is that old snake, the one called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world into the wrong way.) The dragon and its angels were thrown to the earth.

¹⁰ Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say, “The victory and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Messiah have now come. These things have come, because the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown out. He is the one who accused them day and night before our God. ¹¹ They defeated him by the blood sacrifice of the Lamb and by the message of God that they told people. They did not love their lives too much. They were not afraid of death. ¹² So rejoice, you heavens and all who live there! But it will be terrible for the earth and sea, because the devil has gone down to you. He is filled with anger. He knows he doesn’t have much time.” ( abu bakr was an old person he literarrly could die every moment of his old age)

¹³ The dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth. So he chased the woman who had given birth to the child. ¹⁴ But the woman was given the two wings of a great eagle. Then she could fly to the place that was prepared for her in the desert. There she would be taken care of for three and a half years. There she would be away from the dragon.^[b] 15 Then the dragon poured water out of its mouth like a river. It poured the water toward the woman so that the flood would carry her away. ¹⁶ But the earth helped the woman (is imam ali as not called abu turab?). The earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that came from the mouth of the dragon. ¹⁷ Then the dragon was very angry with the woman. It went away to make war against all her other children (all the 11  imams), Her children are those who obey God’s commands and have the truth that Jesus taught. 

¹⁸ The dragon stood on the seashore.

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

On 11/5/2020 at 11:40 AM, Labbayka said:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235067407-identifying-sulaym-ibn-qays/

Here read and ponder on the highlighted Text, to see the his "personal" rational. Remember Saqifa, Fadaq, and judge if the rational makes sense.

Quote

Q9 - Fatimah's rib: what is your true position regarding this matter?

A - Anyone who claims that I have said that Fatimah's rib was not broken is a liar!

Some people have been talking this nonsense for more than five years.7 Here, I have this to say to you, to clarify the matter: to start with, I reiterate that I did not say that Fatimah's rib was not broken, and everyone who claims that I did is a liar. I merely regarded it as unlikely; I raised a question mark on the basis of historical analysis.

I said: 'I do not react positively with this because the Muslims' love for Fatimah (عليه السلام) had been greater than their love for Ali, and greater than their love for al-Hasan and al-Husain, and greater than that their love for the Messenger of Allah (sawa). I said that it was unlikely that anyone would commit such an act, but conceded that bad intentions were plotted - not to establish the innocence of anyone, but in fear of agitating Islamic public opinion.

There were many narrations: some said that they entered the house, while others said they did not. Hence, I said: 'I see that to be unlikely and I do not react positively to the word itself'. The world roared and heavens fell on earth, and words began to be fabricated and spread in some quarters!

This reaction has still not abated in more than one place, and leaflets are being distributed around the world. It is as if the dangers confronting the Muslims and all the injustice that we live in have become nothing, and all that matters is this historical issue!

In fact, this is a symptom of the backwardness which is being practiced by many in our Islamic arena. This problem still festers among those who do not care about the dangers which confront Islam, and that the problem is still alive means that we are not addressing the major issues on the proper level of awareness.

https://www.al-islam.org/fatimah-a-role-model-for-men-and-women/chapter-4-questions-and-answers

http://english.bayynat.org.lb/Books/Fatimah.pdf

Page 69-70

[Guest haidar]

no doubt it has been exaggerated but an incident occured. Even Nahj al-Balagha one if the more mainstream Shia sources concedes that 'Ali was taken out of the house with a rope tied round him. Even Zaydi historical sources have recorded some of these incidents. I personally highly doubt Muhsin (a) was killed in this and this was probably a later fabrication, but do not let this distract you from the reality that Imam 'Ali (a) was forced. It is possible that Lady Fatima (a) was injured in the process and no doubt she died from grief, which was spurred on by the actions of Abu Bakr and Umar. Whilst it would be an exaggeration and indeed untrue to say they killed Fatima (a), they did hurt her so much that she did not want them at her funeral. There is a "Sahih" chain in one of Baladhuri's books I believe but I would not get too bogged down with the requirement for Sahih. This may sound our counter-intuitive but our Sunni brothers have some of the most concocted "Sahih" hadith out there in Bukhari and Muslim. For example read the Book of the Companions Virtues if you want some good examples of Umayyad propaganda, or the narrations of Imam 'Ali praising the caliphs in the order that they became caliph....

Clearly the chain of a narration is one thing and the content of then narration is another. The real question is can this issue be proven from a wide range of sources and do all Shia groups (mainly Twelver, Zaydi and Ismaili) agree on this issue? Yes they all agree an altercation took place although they may differ on the specifics. Do the Sunni books record such an event? Yes they do. The Shia have been in consensus from day one that Imam 'Ali was forced to pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr. What happens is that some people overplay this issue which leads to some people becoming super skeptical in reaction. The middle path is the best.

 

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

The 2nd one, in the footnote, the examiner tries so hard to deny it, he says its a lie but give no proof why. On the other hand, many hadiths in there books point towards an attack happening.

Translation:

"Umar hit the Belly of Fatima (عليه السلام) and killed the Fetus in her belly, and Umar would scream, 'Burn the house on who was in it!' And in the house was Ali, Fatima, Hasan, Husayn (عليهم السلام)!"

[MaisumAli]

1 hour ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

The 2nd one, in the footnote, the examiner tries so hard to deny it, he says its a lie but give no proof why. On the other hand, many hadiths in there books point towards an attack happening.

Translation:

"Umar hit the Belly of Fatima (عليه السلام) and killed the Fetus in her belly, and Umar would scream, 'Burn the house on who was in it!' And in the house was Ali, Fatima, Hasan, Husayn (عليهم السلام)!"

Is this a Shia narration?

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

Just now, MaisumAli said:

Is this a Shia narration?

Nope. Both books are by Sunnis.

[MaisumAli]

2 hours ago, Ansur Shiat Ali said:

Nope. Both books are by Sunnis.

To be completely honest, I could care less if they believe in the event or not, makes little difference to me, but I want to see the attack from our own books

[MaisumAli]

9 hours ago, Guest haidar said:

no doubt it has been exaggerated but an incident occured. Even Nahj al-Balagha one if the more mainstream Shia sources concedes that 'Ali was taken out of the house with a rope tied round him. Even Zaydi historical sources

Thanks for the input!

 

And no doubt there are exaggerations in any big event, and I agree, but could you elaborate on the Nahjul Balagah part a bit more? I don't seem to see anything in Nahjul Balagah pertaining to this incident

[Guest Haidar]

5 hours ago, MaisumAli said:

Thanks for the input!

 

And no doubt there are exaggerations in any big event, and I agree, but could you elaborate on the Nahjul Balagah part a bit more? I don't seem to see anything in Nahjul Balagah pertaining to this incident

Of course https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-28-reply-muawiyah-and-it-one-ot-his-most-elegant

Muawiyah wanted to humiliate Ali about this incident and the start of letter refers to him spreading narrations that Abu Bakr and Umar were more distinguished than him. Muawiyah paid people to write most of the Hadiths you find in Bukhari and Muslim Book of Companions. They took Siddiq and Faruq from Imam Ali. Muawiyah launched an all out war and propaganda campaign against Imam Ali. And his son Yazid, well we all know what happened there.

[MaisumAli]

2 hours ago, Guest Haidar said:

Of course https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-28-reply-muawiyah-and-it-one-ot-his-most-elegant

Muawiyah wanted to humiliate Ali about this incident and the start of letter refers to him spreading narrations that Abu Bakr and Umar were more distinguished than him. Muawiyah paid people to write most of the Hadiths you find in Bukhari and Muslim Book of Companions. They took Siddiq and Faruq from Imam Ali. Muawiyah launched an all out war and propaganda campaign against Imam Ali. And his son Yazid, well we all know what happened there.

Wow! Much thanks for sharing this, but does this mean that Amir Momineen (عليه السلام) is accepting this accusation?:

 

You have said that I was dragged like a camel with a nose string to swear allegiance (to Abu Bakr at Saqifah). By the Eternal Allah, you had intended to revile me but you have praised me, and to humiliate me but have yourself been humiliated. What humiliation does it mean for a Muslim to be the victim of oppression so long as he does not entertain any doubt in his religion, nor any misgiving in his firm belief! This argument of mine is intended for others, but I have stated it to you only in so far as it was appropriate

 

 

Also is this letter authentic?

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

14 hours ago, MaisumAli said:

To be completely honest, I could care less if they believe in the event or not, makes little difference to me, but I want to see the attack from our own books

I know, Kitab Sulaym Ibn Qays (رضي الله عنه) talks about the attack. Most Shia books about The life of Sayidat Nisa' al Alameen say that she died angry at Abu Bakr and Umar and she was attacked 3 days after the death of Rasul Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

[Guest haydar]

19 hours ago, MaisumAli said:

Wow! Much thanks for sharing this, but does this mean that Amir Momineen (عليه السلام) is accepting this accusation?:

 

You have said that I was dragged like a camel with a nose string to swear allegiance (to Abu Bakr at Saqifah). By the Eternal Allah, you had intended to revile me but you have praised me, and to humiliate me but have yourself been humiliated. What humiliation does it mean for a Muslim to be the victim of oppression so long as he does not entertain any doubt in his religion, nor any misgiving in his firm belief! This argument of mine is intended for others, but I have stated it to you only in so far as it was appropriate

 

 

Also is this letter authentic?

I find no reason to reject it this incident as it is well documented and the general consensus of the Shia that Imam Ali was forced. The rest seems authentic about Muwiyah deciding the previous caliphs were better than him - this can be proven by the abundance of narrations that exist to this day about them. Like I said some people exaggerate too much and some deny it ever took place  - both are wrong

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

On 11/5/2020 at 9:40 AM, Warilla said:

 

I believe Ayatullah Fadullah has stated there is not a single authentic chain on the incident.

 

fyi

Read the entire thread.

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235059011-a-response-to-syyed-fadlullah-ra/?tab=comments#comment-3165419

[Ali bin Hussein]

Thanks. I skimmed throuh most of the thread.

Here are the quotes of Sheikh Fadullah

"I reiterate that I did not say that Fatimah's rib was not broken, and everyone who claims that I did is a liar. I merely regarded it as unlikely; I raised a question mark on the basis of historical analysis......"

"There were many narrations: some said that they entered the house, while others said they did not. Hence, I said: 'I see that to be unlikely......"

Overall I think unless you are 12er and therefore accept the ijma of your scholars, it is a fabricated event as there is not any sound evidence. 

It would be next to impossible to prove it to a Sunni,Zaydi, or non muslim academic.

As Zaydi we have no narrations from Ahlulbayt regarding the incident. On the contrary there is an opinion that Bibi Fatima died a natural death.

[Ali bin Hussein]

On 11/8/2020 at 5:18 PM, F.M said:

lots of things are as always written in metaphorical sentances.. also if i dont mistaken there was also a pupit of one of our holy imam talking about bible etc.. and the imam replied that this verse is talking about fatima al zahra..

actually the entire ahlalbayt is mentionend in bible as well 

i have marked the most important parts..

-------

The Woman Giving Birth and the Dragon -Revelation 12

stood on the seashore.

Very interesting. . 

I have always felt that the concept of 12 came from judeo-Christian doctrines.  And was retrofitted into Shia doctrine when 12er theology was formalised post occultation.

In the absence of strong proof from islamic text. It maybe that this legend worked it's way into islamic community as many other Jewish and Christian concepts.

But I guess if you are 12er then this would go a long way to proove the attack. Maybe not from an academic viewpoint but definitely from a personal beleif point of view.

[MaisumAli]

2 hours ago, Warilla said:

Very interesting. . 

I have always felt that the concept of 12 came from judeo-Christian doctrines.  And was retrofitted into Shia doctrine when 12er theology was formalised post occultation.

In the absence of strong proof from islamic text. It maybe that this legend worked it's way into islamic community as many other Jewish and Christian concepts.

But I guess if you are 12er then this would go a long way to proove the attack. Maybe not from an academic viewpoint but definitely from a personal beleif point of view.

In all honesty, I think the number 12 is very much an Islamic thing, like for example:

 

1. And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. 5:12

2. The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, or you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish, Muslim 1822a

3. And We divided them into twelve tribes, [or] communities. And when his people asked Moses for water, We inspired him, "Strike the rock with thy staff!" -whereupon twelve springs gushed forth from it, so that all the people knew whence to drink

7:60

 

4. And [remember] when Moses prayed for water for his people and We replied, "Strike the rock with thy staff!"-whereupon twelve springs gushed forth from it

2:60

Heck the word Imam(singular+plural) appears in the Quran 12 times, so I don't know how you can reach to that conclusion

 

As for the the concept of Twelve Imams, this was not something just made up post Ghaybah, it was actually something people believed in since the time of The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), matter a fact The Book of Sulaiym ibn Qays(oldest Islamic book) is witness to this, it contains the sayings of The Prophet speaking about the twelve Imams, whether you think it was fabricated by Abban b. Abu Ayyashi is irrelevant, because he lived in the times of the first 4 Imams I believe, so to say this is a post Ghaybah concept is outright wrong

Edited November 11, 2020 by MaisumAli

[Ali bin Hussein]

30 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

In all honesty, I think the number 12 is very much an Islamic thing, like for example:

 

1. And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. 5:12

2. The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, or you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish, Muslim 1822a

3. And We divided them into twelve tribes, [or] communities. And when his people asked Moses for water, We inspired him, "Strike the rock with thy staff!" -whereupon twelve springs gushed forth from it, so that all the people knew whence to drink

7:60

 

4. And [remember] when Moses prayed for water for his people and We replied, "Strike the rock with thy staff!"-whereupon twelve springs gushed forth from it

2:60

Heck the word Imam(singular+plural) appears in the Quran 12 times, so I don't know how you can reach to that conclusion

 

 Book of Sulaiym ibn Qays(oldest Islamic book) is witness to this, it contains the sayings of 

Most of the refferance in the Qur'an are from the 12 tribes of Israel. 

That doesn't mean it extends to Islam

The 12 caliph hadith is problematic for 2 reasons

1) it's only mutawatir by Sunni standards but weak by Shia. 

2) it was only refferanced in realtion to 12 imams post occultation. Firstly by sheikh Sadooq I believe.

Book of sulaman qays is not trustworthy by date or author or contents. Unfortunately it's relied upon heavily by the 12er (not nessecarily their scholars)

It is definitely something within judeo christian teachings and the Qur'an confirms this. But beyond that there is very little evidence that can be used out side of 12er circles.

Have a look at pre occultation sources and see how much evidence you can find both from hadith and historical text that mention 12 inffalible leaders chosen by Allah. Or even 12 leaders in association with Islam.

 

[MaisumAli]

9 minutes ago, Warilla said:

Most of the refferance in the Qur'an are from the 12 tribes of Israel. 

That doesn't mean it extends to Islam

The 12 caliph hadith is problematic for 2 reasons

1) it's only mutawatir by Sunni standards but weak by Shia. 

2) it was only refferanced in realtion to 12 imams post occultation. Firstly by sheikh Sadooq I believe.

Book of sulaman qays is not trustworthy by date or author or contents. Unfortunately it's relied upon heavily by the 12er (not nessecarily their scholars)

It is definitely something within judeo christian teachings and the Qur'an confirms this. But beyond that there is very little evidence that can be used out side of 12er circles.

Have a look at pre occultation sources and see how much evidence you can find both from hadith and historical text that mention 12 inffalible leaders chosen by Allah. Or even 12 leaders in association with Islam.

 

I myself don't consider the book of Sulaiym to be authentic, but there is no denying that 12 Imams was a thing pre Occultation, whether the book is trustworthy or not, it bears witness to 12 future incoming Imams, even if you consider it an fabrication by Abban, is still irrelevant, because he lived way before the Occultation

Edited November 11, 2020 by MaisumAli

[MaisumAli]

5 minutes ago, Warilla said:

Most of the refferance in the Qur'an are from the 12 tribes of Israel. 

That doesn't mean it extends to Islam

Is it not in The Book of God? I don't see what is so problematic with having 12 leaders, I mean it's not the first time Allah has done it

 

7 minutes ago, Warilla said:

The 12 caliph hadith is problematic for 2 reasons

1) it's only mutawatir by Sunni standards but weak by Shia. 

2) it was only refferanced in realtion to 12 imams post occultation. Firstly by sheikh Sadooq I believe

Yeah obviously! The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) didn't say there will be 12 Caliphs but that there will be 12 Imams, we consider the Caliph thing a fabrication on behalf of Bukhari

 

And while our books are post Occultation, the Isnads in them are wayyy back and can be traced till the 5th and 6th Imams

[Ali bin Hussein]

5 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

1) Is it not in The Book of God? I don't see what is so problematic with having 12 leaders, I mean it's not the first time Allah has done it

 

2)Yeah obviously! The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) didn't say there will be 12 Caliphs but that there will be 12 Imams, we consider the Caliph thing a fabrication on behalf of Bukhari

3)the Isnads 

1) it's not problematic. It's reasabile Allah could use 12 leaders again. But the concept/theory lacks evidenc

2) As far as I know any refferance to the prophet mentioning it is only in post occultation 12er collection. 

3) these are the problems. As the original usool from where the isnads came are all but lost and only exist in post occultation format. Also they are written transmission so could easily be tampered with including both contents and chain.

[MaisumAli]

19 minutes ago, Warilla said:

1) it's not problematic. It's reasabile Allah could use 12 leaders again. But the concept/theory lacks evidenc

1. Yes, it may lack theory in your books, but not our books, so not much we can do there

19 minutes ago, Warilla said:

2) As far as I know any refferance to the prophet mentioning it is only in post occultation 12er collection. 

2. Yes, and like almost all of our books are post Occultation, Bukhari's book came 280-300 years after The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and the rest of the books come even later, are they lies upon the Messenger because of their age? No, because according to a Sunni view the Isnads are still intact

 

19 minutes ago, Warilla said:

3) these are the problems. As the original usool from where the isnads came are all but lost and only exist in post occultation format. Also they are written transmission so could easily be tampered with including both contents and chain

So could any book mate, I mean if you judge simply on that basis then literally all books are fabrications! Also if we were Soo desperate to create this 12 Imams thing out of nowhere, then why do we have weak and in some cases Waqifi narrators in the chains that go back to the 5th and 6th Imams, why even the 5th and 6th? If we wanted to tamper, why not fabricate it against The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) himself? Or Imam Ali or Hassan and Hussain? Matter a fact, as far as my knowledge goes, we only have one or two authentic tradition in which all 12 Imams are named in the entirety of Al Kafi, one would expect if any tampering or fabricating took place then we would have alot of traditions that name all Twelve Aimmah(عليه السلام), but also keep mind that we have many traditions that state that The Twelfth Imam will go into Occultation from the 5th and 6th Imams(عليه السلام)

 

 

And my point on The book of Sulaiym still stands valid, it is a pre-occultation book and it contains the 12 Imams

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by MaisumAli