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In the Name of God بسم الله

Did Islam/religion always exist?

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Did / do all hominid species worship a deity?

It is said that Neanderthals worshipped animals:

Quote

Likewise a number of archeologists propose that Middle Paleolithic societies — such as that of the Neanderthals — may also have practiced the earliest form of totemism or animal worship in addition to their (presumably religious) burial of the dead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_religion

It is said chimpanzees may have religious rites as well:

Quote

Maybe we found the first evidence of chimpanzees creating a kind of shrine that could indicate sacred trees,” Kehoe wrote on her blog

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2079630-what-do-chimp-temples-tell-us-about-the-evolution-of-religion/

Did religion always exist or was it created after humans evolved better brains 5220 years ago?

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On 11/2/2020 at 6:06 AM, 313_Waiter said:

Did / do all hominid species worship a deity?

It is said that Neanderthals worshipped animals:

It is said chimpanzees may have religious rites as well:

Did religion always exist or was it created after humans evolved better brains 5220 years ago?

Well for one we don’t believe in evolution if we believe in a perfect creation of Adam (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

second yes simple answer it always existed like truth always existed like nafs always existed like evil always existed and good always existed 

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20 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Muslims opposition to evolution appears to be very similar to christians opposition to galileo and science in the middle ages.

the evidence for evolution being the way creation came about is overwhelming. evolution can be seen in the formation of stars, planets, mountains, rivers etc. Nothing just snapped into existence, we can see everything goes through a process. we just don't see animals or other existing things popping into existence.

some muslims who accept the evolution say it is "guided" evolution i.e it's the process God used to bring about living beings.

Evolution was theorised by a guy who conducted seances to try to find answers to his questions that he struggled to answer , isn’t that an oxymoron?

so u tell me how does that make sense a guy who theorised no God and afterlife was trying to contact them to fill in the gaps to his questions, does that sound like a guy to take advice about the metaphysical? 

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4 minutes ago, theEndIsNear said:

Evolution was theorised by a guy who conducted seances to try to find answers to his questions that he struggled to answer , isn’t that an oxymoron?

so u tell me how does that make sense a guy who theorised no God and afterlife was trying to contact them to fill in the gaps to his questions, does that sound like a guy to take advice about the metaphysical? 

why don't you look at the theory as it is understood today by all sides and based on the evidence. you can reach your own conclusions.

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Just now, khamosh21 said:

why don't you look at the theory as it is understood today by all sides and based on the evidence. you can reach your own conclusions.

The theory has many holes that has been discussed many times here by many people there is books journalistic articles and tonnes of debates and discussions talking about the problems and issues with this theory ,it’s not as water tight as you claim it to be 

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Just now, theEndIsNear said:

The theory has many holes that has been discussed many times here by many people there is books journalistic articles and tonnes of debates and discussions talking about the problems and issues with this theory ,it’s not as water tight as you claim it to be 

that's the conclusion you've reached, and that's fine.

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4 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

i will happily reject both then lol

There is a difference, if u have faith in God and Islam and get tested and pass , then this faith opens the door to truth and furthermore 

if u have faith in evolution you neither benefit nor gain it’s just a hindrance that u will forget when u die 

In 56:79, the Quran describes itself: "This is an honorable Quran, in a book hidden, which none can touch except the purified." This should be your goal to uncover this hidden book

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On 12/28/2020 at 10:07 AM, khamosh21 said:

Muslims opposition to evolution appears to be very similar to christians opposition to galileo and science in the middle ages.

Muslims have been mindlessly mimicking European behavior for approximately 200 - 300 years. 

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Islam rejects belief in young Earth creationism and there are many scientific errors and logical inconsistencies in the Hebrew scriptures. Islam can harmoniously coexistence with the Theory of Evolution, Natural Selection, Adaptation Theory, Big Bang, Multiverse etc. as long as said theories don't directly oppose Islam in any way. Darwin himself believed in God and religion but wasn't a traditional follower (i.e. nonconformist Unitarianism). If science and Islam seem to superficially contradict then a synthesis should try to be made between scripture and modern findings. If the two cannot be reconciled then an epistemic weighing must be performed...Muslims can accept lifeforms evolving from other lifeforms...when it comes to the subject of the first man (i.e. Adam) Qurʼān unequivocally states that Adam (peace be upon him) was made in some sort of direct and abrupt manner and compares his likeness to Jesus in no uncertain terms...so Adam was brought into existence outside of the natural order of things somehow

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I'm of the view that Adam (عليه السلام) represents the first of our particular species, the homo sapien sapien. And at his point was where what we know of as 'religion' started. 

Previous species within our family tree might've believed in something, but it's hard to imagine that they would be put into the same test as us considering their mental limitations (compared to us). They might've been treated like animals, but who knows

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On 1/11/2021 at 5:02 AM, BleedKnee said:

I'm of the view that Adam (عليه السلام) represents the first of our particular species, the homo sapien sapien. And at his point was where what we know of as 'religion' started. 

Previous species within our family tree might've believed in something, but it's hard to imagine that they would be put into the same test as us considering their mental limitations (compared to us). They might've been treated like animals, but who knows

There is a Hadith from imams that say there was a thousand Adams before our Adam but however I don’t know how solid that Hadith is 

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On 12/28/2020 at 8:37 PM, khamosh21 said:

the evidence for evolution being the way creation came about is overwhelming. evolution can be seen in the formation of stars, planets, mountains, rivers etc. Nothing just snapped into existence, we can see everything goes through a process. we just don't see animals or other existing things popping into existence.

I would say that evolution is a created system itself. As said by Hasnain Rajabali.

As of Evolution in the origin of mankind:

I haven't read much but listened to this video which might help:

The angels actually said and is mentioned in the Quran:

30) And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

So, basically the angels knew that about such a creature like human. So, there were different creatures like us before us. 

The argument of evolutionist that is not accepted in Islam is that "Humans were evolved and not created."

As if our ancestors were monkeys. This video might help.

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On 11/2/2020 at 5:36 PM, 313_Waiter said:

Did / do all hominid species worship a deity?

It is said that Neanderthals worshipped animals:

It is said chimpanzees may have religious rites as well:

Did religion always exist or was it created after humans evolved better brains 5220 years ago?

We cannot reject this hypothesis actually that the Neandarthals or the beings that existed before us and similar to us 'worshipped other than Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))'.

As again I mention the verse 2:30 where the Angels question Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that "What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood......"

Which means there were species similar to us who might have been created like us and were established as Caliph like us. 

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa6471

This article might shed some light on what I am trying to say.

Now, as they are mentioned in a bad word in the Quran at numerous places, there is no doubt that they did worship 'other than Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))'

On 11/2/2020 at 5:36 PM, 313_Waiter said:

Did religion always exist or was it created after humans evolved better brains 5220 years ago?

From the Quran, every creature that exist or existed regardless of what it was is obedient to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in there own realm.

As we know that this is true about even a small aunt or spider etc. 

In fact, Surah Zilzal says something more interesting that the earth will speak by the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). So, even the earth has a religion and is obedient to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) let alone the creatures that lived before humans.

There are many many other proofs if we dig in.

This is all from tafsir of Surah Zilzal :

 

Quote

 

There is a tradition from the holy Prophet (S) who asked:

"Do you know what the purpose of

'her news'

is?"

the people replied that Allah and His Messenger are more informed.

Then, he added:

“'Her news'

is that she is witness to all the deeds that every servant has done on her surface. She will say: So and so had done such and such on a particular day.

And this is

'her news'".4

In another tradition the holy Prophet (S) is narrated to have said:

"Be careful of your ablution; and the best action of your deeds is prayer. Then, protect the earth, because she is your mother; and there is no one on her who does good or evil, but that she reports it.”5

Abu-Sa'id-Khudri has narrated that when they were in the desert they would call to prayer, loudly, because he had heard from the Messenger of Allah (S) who said:

“There is no Jinn or human or stone that hears it, but does not bear witness to it (on the Day of Judgement).”6

Does the Earth really speak by the command of Allah? Or, is the purpose that the effects of Man's deeds appear on the face of the earth?

We know that every action which Man does has an effect on his surroundings even though they are not tangible for us, but they all will be made manifest on That Day and the Earth speaking is not anything save one example of this great manifestation.

In any event, this is not a strange matter because, even today with the development of science and Man's experiments, there are inventions that can record the voice of people or take photos and films of the actions that anyone does, at any time or anywhere and which can be kept as proper documents to be offered to the court in a form that no one can deny or reject.

It is worthy to note that Hazrat Ali (عليه السلام) is narrated to have said:

"Say your prayers at different points in the Mosques, because on the Day of Judgement every part will bear witness for the one who has prayed thereon".7

Another tradition denotes that when Hazrat Ali (عليه السلام) finished the act of dividing the public treasury of the Muslims, he used to say a two-rak'at prayer and then said (addressing the place):

"On the Day of Judgement bear witness for me that verily I ruled you justly and emptied you rightfully.”8

In the next verse, it says:

"For that your Lord will have given her inspiration.”

And the Earth obeys this command fully. The term /auha/ is used, here to indicate the extent of the divine revelation and that even the earth shall have some sort of receiving the revelation by which she will be able to speak or it is contrary to the nature of the earth to speak.

 

 

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Well it all started at some point.... Even Russia as you know it now in 980s was looking at which religion to choose for the people of the country at that time and one of the options was Islam but at the end their ruler chose to be ortodox and till now this is their main religion 

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On 11/2/2020 at 8:06 PM, 313_Waiter said:

Did religion always exist or was it created after humans evolved better brains 5220 years ago?

Worshipping a diety has existed since the beginning.  Method of Worship was not formalized until Adam (عليه السلام) came (born) to the earth.

Even Iblees was Worshipping a Diety for millions of years.  The moment Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) formalized it through Adam (عليه السلام), he objected.

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Guest Reza Syed Al-Karimi
On 11/2/2020 at 7:06 AM, 313_Waiter said:

Did / do all hominid species worship a deity?

It is said that Neanderthals worshipped animals:

It is said chimpanzees may have religious rites as well:

Did religion always exist or was it created after humans evolved better brains 5220 Years

A bee worships God according to its capacity and understanding (and that capacity and understanding of God, for the bee, is the flower that it is attracted to).  So it worships and adores God through the flower.  Each animal or thing worships God but in different levels and capacities.  This is because each and every single thing is a name of God and therefore manifests certain divine attributes and qualities.  The definition of Man is that he has the potential to worship God in His fullness or Absoluteness.  
 

On 11/2/2020 at 7:06 AM, 313_Waiter said:

 

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Wouldn't this entail that at that point there is only Reality / the Real and there is no dream/ creation/ illusion? 

To respond: That so called “period” where “only” the Face of God remains, is the case right now!  This is what non-duality is.
The “other-than-God” is only the result of ignorance (which itself is just apparent and not real).

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no

The reason why the angels said that is probably because they know the constitution of humans and their capacities thorough their angelic intelligence, not through experience! 
 

the guys who created the first atomic bomb new what kind of destruction it could cause even without experimenting and seeing it explode in Hiroshima.  How did they know it was going to be destructive?  Intelligence!  Not necessarily experience.  

’Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."’ (2:30)

According to Tafsir al Qummi (shia exegesis) there were Jinn and Nisnas (could mean a species resembling humans) on earth that caused corruption:

”Imam Muhammad Baqir (a) (the fifth holy successor of the Prophet (a)) said:

Abu Ja’far (a) has narrated that Amirul Momineen (a) said: ‘When Allah, blessed and high, wanted to create a creature by His hands, and that was after what occurred with the Jinn and the al-Nisnaas in the earth by seven thousand years, and when Allah desired to create Adam for management (of the affairs) and predestination, when He constituted it in the skies and the earth, and it was all in His knowledge, when He intended all that, He uncovered the veils of the skies.

Then He said to the angels: “Look at the people of the earth from My creatures, from the Jinn and the al-Nisnaas.” So when they saw what they had been up to, like disobedience and shedding of blood without right, and mischief in the earth, that was grievous upon them, and they were angered for the sake of Allah, and expressed remorse upon the earth, and their anger was out of control, they said: ‘O Lord! You are the Mighty, the All-Powerful, the Compeller, the Able, the Magnificent of Glory, and these are Your creatures, the weak, the humble in Your earth, turning in Your control, and are living by Your sustenance, and enjoying by well-being given by You, and they are disobeying You with the likes of these grievous sins. Are You not regretting, or angered, nor retaliating for Yourself when You heard and saw (all this) from them? And that was grievous upon us, and is a grave matter regarding You.’

So when Allah, Mighty and Majestic heard that from the angels, He said: “[2:30] I am going to make a Caliph in the earth for Myself against them. Thus, he would become a Proof for Me over them in My earth over My creatures’. The angels said: “Glory be to You! Are You going to make in it one as shall make mischief therein and shed the blood, and we glorify with Your praise and extol Your holiness? And they said: ‘So make him from us, for we neither make mischief in the earth nor do we shed the blood.’

The majestic is His majesty said: “O My angels, I know what you don’t. I intend to create a creature with My own hands, and make his offspring prophets, messengers, righteous servants and Guiding Imams, making them to be My Caliphs over My creatures in My earth, forbidding them from disobeying Me, and warning them of My punishment, and guiding them to obey Me, and they can travel by them upon My Way.”

And I shall make them a Proof for Me, as an excuse and a warning, and would set forth the al-Nisnaas from My earth, thus purifying it from them, and I shall transfer the disobedient Jinn away from My citizens, and My creatures, and My good ones, and settle them in the atmosphere, and in the horizons of the earth, not being adjacent to the offspring of My creatures. And I shall make a veil to be in between the Jinn and My creatures, and the offspring of My creatures would neither be able to see the Jinn, nor feel them, nor intermingle with them, nor have gatherings with them. So the one, who disobeys Me, from (disobeying) the offspring of My creatures, whom I have chosen for Myself, I shall settle them in the settlements of the disobedient, and turn them towards their turning, and it does not worry Me (the least).” So the angels said: ‘O our Lord! Do whatever You so desire. There is no knowledge with us, except what You taught us. You are the all-Knowing, the Wise...’”https://hubeali.com/books/English-Books/TafseerQummi/TafsirQummi-Vol1.pdf

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The reason why the angels said that is probably because they know the constitution of humans and their capacities thorough their angelic intelligence, not through experience! 

Disagree. If you read the quranic verses which mention the creation of Hazrat Adam (عليه السلام) you will understand that it was not any angelic intelligence but rather experience. The configuration of Hazrat Adam (عليه السلام) was not yet there when this happened. 

So, there understanding can come out of only one process: experience.

And actually human being by nature is also not destructive so that doesn't make sense.

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On 12/28/2020 at 10:07 AM, khamosh21 said:

the evidence for evolution

Al-Baari, Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  says, "kun fayakun".  

One point of argument between "pure" evolutionists and creationists is both ignore the obvious: we know the how, "Be and it is"; but not the When.

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On 2/5/2021 at 9:33 PM, Guest Reza Syed Al-Karimi said:

To respond: That so called “period” where “only” the Face of God remains, is the case right now!  This is what non-duality is.
The “other-than-God” is only the result of ignorance (which itself is just apparent and not real).

I see. From what I have read so far I think Mulla Sadra saw creation as lower levels of Existence, like the rays to a Sun.

Thanks

Quote

A bee worships God according to its capacity and understanding (and that capacity and understanding of God, for the bee, is the flower that it is attracted to).  So it worships and adores God through the flower

But then why is Shirk the worst sin possible? Why were the people of Moses frowned upon for worshipping the golden calf when they were worshipping Allah[‘s attributes] through the calf? 

Imam al Ridha (عليه السلام) seems to be saying below that God is known by His attributes, but if we are always worshipping God no matter what we worship (even our ego), then why do we deserve punishment (hope I made sense)?

Quote

The Imam said: "However, Allah, the Great and Almighty, is indicated by His attributes, known by His names, and His creatures are proofs of Him, that the willing seeker concerning that may be in no need of the vision of an eye nor hearing of an ear nor touching of the palm of hand nor encompassment of a heart. If His attributes, great be His laudation, do not indicate Him; His names do not summon to Him; the knowledge of the creatures does not perceive His core; the creatures will worship His names and His attributes, not His core. If this is such, then the one god will be other than Allah, for his attributes and his names are other than him. Did you understand, Imran?"

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Text:Imam_al-Rida's_(a)_Debate_with_Imran_al-Sabi

Thanks

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On 11/2/2020 at 7:06 AM, 313_Waiter said:

Did religion always exist or was it created after humans evolved better brains 5220 years ago?

Agriculture has been practiced for at least 12000 years. What is your basis for claiming better brains evolved 5220 years ago?

There is evidence from burials and art that the earliest humans had spiritual beliefs, but nothing further is known about what they believed, and probably nothing can be known with certainty. We Muslims believe that Adam and Hawa/Eve knew the existence of God, though whether they had formal rituals is unknown, as far as I know. 

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44 minutes ago, notme said:

Agriculture has been practiced for at least 12000 years. What is your basis for claiming better brains evolved 5220 years ago?

There is evidence from burials and art that the earliest humans had spiritual beliefs, but nothing further is known about what they believed, and probably nothing can be known with certainty. We Muslims believe that Adam and Hawa/Eve knew the existence of God, though whether they had formal rituals is unknown, as far as I know. 

Idk the internet says that is when the earliest form of writing begins:

https://www.bl.uk/history-of-writing/articles/where-did-writing-begin#:~:text=Scholars generally agree that the,Southern Mesopotamia) and other languages.

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It is interesting how a question about religion always existing has turned into a debate about evolution!

Is religion an evolved thing or is it something people have always engaged in.  I like the comment that all creation worships God.

The universal expresion of a desire to worship something right the way accross the globe for me is one of the evidences of the existance of God.  Someone once said "There is a God shaped hole in all of us"  This is a reflection of a verse from Soloman's writings in the book of Ecclesiastes in the Old Testament chapetr 3

11 He [God] has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

The question for me is how do we respond to the search for God deep within our heart.  Do we try to satisfy it by submission to religion and relgious rituals and practices like prayer and fasting, or do we seek to find a relationship with God and welcome him into our lives to live their and fill the emptiness?

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Do we try to satisfy it by submission to religion and relgious rituals and practices like prayer and fasting, or do we seek to find a relationship with God and welcome him into our lives to live their and fill the emptiness?

The former is very much necessary for the latter (along with supplication and talking to God). Prayers and rituals are conducive towards an internal spirituality.

In this sense, Islam as the all-encompassing final revelation for humanity combines the Law and ritual practice emphasised within Judaism as well as the focus on the mercy and love of God emphasised within modern interpretations of Christianity (needless to mention Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law”). Further, it combines the concerns related this world (having a political, economic and social dimension) as well as the demands and preparations of the Hereafter (the numerous traditions emphasising preparation for death).

Peace be with you.

Edited by 313_Waiter
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