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In the Name of God بسم الله

Did Imam ali (as) actually say abu bakr is better than him?

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A few narrations by the imam from sunni sources that lead sunnis into believing abu bakr is better than ali (عليه السلام) and use against shias, did he actually speak highly of abu bakr and umar? how do you answer to these?

 

❝A woman came to the Prophet (ﷺ) and spoke to him about something and he told her to return to him. She said, "O Rasulullah! If I come and do not find you?" (meaning, "...if you die?") The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "If you should not find me, then go to Abu Bakr."❞ — Jubair bin Mutim (d. 57h) via Bukhari 62/11
❝...I feel like calling Abu Bakr and his son to appoint him as my successor lest people should say something or wish for something else. (But) Allah will prevent (anyone else from claiming the Caliphate) and the believers will insist (on Abu Bakr).❞ — The Prophet (ﷺ) via Bukhari 93/77
❝Follow the Two (who will rule) after me, Abu Bakr and 'Umar.❞ — The Prophet (ﷺ) via Tirmidhi 3662
❝I asked my father (Ali ibn Abi Talib), "Who are the best people after Rasulullah (ﷺ)?" He said, "Abu Bakr." I asked, "Who then?" He said, "Then `Umar. " I thought he would say Uthman, so I said, "Then you?" He said, "I am only an ordinary person."❞ — Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya (d. 81h) via Bukhari 62/21
❝When the Prophet (ﷺ) died, we reflected on our situation, realizing that the prophet had put Abu Bakr forward for prayer. And so we were pleased to choose for our wordly affairs the same man that the Prophet was pleased to choose for our religious affairs. Thus it was that we put Abu Bakr forward for the Caliphate.❞ — Ali ibn Abi Talib (d. 40h) via At-Tabaqat 3/183
❝A man said to Ali ibn Abi Talib: "We hear you say in your khutbah, 'O Allah! Grant us righteousness through the means you granted it to the rightly-guided caliphs'; who are these caliphs?" Ali’s eyes became wet with tears, and he said: "They are my beloved ones, Abu Bakr and Umar, the exemplars of guidance, the sheikhs of Islam, the two notables of the tribe of Quraysh who deserved to be followed after the death of the Prophet (ﷺ). He who followed them is safeguarded, and anyone who treads their path is guided to the path of righteousness. A person who clings to them becomes a member of Allah’s party."❞ — Narrated Jaafar as-Sadiq (d. 148h) via his father in at-Tuyuriyat
❝I entered on ‘Ali ibn abi Talib during his emirate and said: “I passed by some folks who were talking about Abu Bakr and Umar and saying that you have a deep hatred for both of them, one of those folks is Abdullah ibn Saba (founder of Shi’ism)." Ali said: “I do not understand this wicked man (Ibn Saba), I seek refuge in Allah from this matter and I only have deep beautiful respect for them.” Then he sent after Ibn Saba and exiled him to al-Madaen (In Yemen) and said: “He will not live in the same land with me.” He then went to his Mimbar and when the people gathered he complimented both of them and said nothing but good things about them. then he said: “If it reaches me that anyone prefers me over them then I shall lash them as they do with the slandering liar.”❞ — Narrated Suwaid ibn Ghaflah in al-Kifayah, 376
❝No one comes to me, preferring me over Abu Bakr and Umar except that I will lash him with the punishment of slanderer.❞ — Ali ibn Abi Talib (d. 40h) via al-Furgan Baynal Haq wal-Batil, 21-22
❝The best of mankind after Rasulullah (ﷺ) are Abu Bakr and Umar. Love of me will never be united with hatred of Abu Bakr and Umar in the heart of a believer.❞ — Ali ibn Abi Talib (d. 40h) via Tabrani, al-Awsat
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Imam Ali also thought of Abu Bakr to be a liar sinful and dishonest person during his life and up to his death. A Sunni will say haha its only in relation to Fadak and they sorted the dispute but the actual narration refuted this idea.

 

Sahih Muslim 1757 c

It is reported by Zuhri that this tradition was narrated to him by Malik b. Aus who said:

Umar b. al-Khattab sent for me and I came to him when the day had advanced. I found him in his house sitting on his bare bed-stead, reclining on a leather pillow. He said (to me): Malik, some people of your tribe have hastened to me (with a request for help). I have ordered a little money for them. Take it and distribute it among them. I said: I wish you had ordered somebody else to do this job. He said: Malik, take it (and do what you have been told). At this moment (his man-servant) Yarfa' came in and said: Commander of the Faithful, what do you say about Uthman, Abd al-Rabman b. 'Auf, Zubair and Sa'd (who have come to seek an audience with you)? He said: Yes, and permitted them. so they entered. Then he (Yarfa') came again and said: What do you say about 'Ali and Abbas (who are present at the door)? He said: Yes, and permitted them to enter. Abbas said: Commander of the Faithful, decide (the dispute) between me and this sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar. The people (who were present) also said: Yes. Commander of the Faithful, do decide (the dispute) and have mercy on them. Malik b. Aus said: I could well imagine that they had sent them in advance for this purpose (by 'Ali and Abbas). 'Umar said: Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They said: Yes. Then he turned to Abbas and 'Ali and said: I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) said: Yes. (Then) Umar said: Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, had done to His Messenger (ﷺ) a special favour that He has not done to anyone else except him. He quoted the Qur'anic verse:" What Allah has bestowed upon His Apostle from (the properties) of the people of township is for Allah and His Messenger". The narrator said: I do not know whether he also recited the previous verse or not. Umar continued: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) distrbuted among you the properties abandoned by Banu Nadir. By Allah, he never preferred himself over you and never appropriated anything to your exclusion. (After a fair distribution in this way) this property was left over. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) would meet from its income his annual expenditure, and what remained would be deposited in the Bait-ul-Mal. (Continuing further) he said: I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained. Do you know this? They said: Yes. Then he adjured Abbas and 'All as he had adjured the other persons and asked: Do you both know this? They said: Yes. He said: When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used it. So both of you got it. He said: Wasn't it like this? They said: Yes. He said: Then you have (again) come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.
 
 
Now the Sunni position is that Imam Ali forgave Abu Bakr they became good with each other blah blah blah. But this authentic hadith which also features in Bukhari (with the words replaced with so and so) show us
 
1) Imam Ali thought Umar and Abu Bakr to be dishonest 
 
2) Even if it just Fadak, the narration and the highlighted parts so that because Abu Bakr was in control of it Umar is saying Imam Ali held this view all through Abu Bakrs reign, now he’s passed away he holds the view against Umar now as Umar is in control
 
So I think what you have is two contradictory views and the Sunni position of trying to suggest the Rashidun were all friends is ridiculous, Imam Ali AS actual gave one of the perpetrators of Uthmans killing a military commander position in his army in Jamal and didn’t punish him
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16 minutes ago, Labbayka said:

Imam Ali also thought of Abu Bakr to be a liar sinful and dishonest person during his life and up to his death. A Sunni will say haha its only in relation to Fadak and they sorted the dispute but the actual narration refuted this idea.

 

Sahih Muslim 1757 c

It is reported by Zuhri that this tradition was narrated to him by Malik b. Aus who said:

Umar b. al-Khattab sent for me and I came to him when the day had advanced. I found him in his house sitting on his bare bed-stead, reclining on a leather pillow. He said (to me): Malik, some people of your tribe have hastened to me (with a request for help). I have ordered a little money for them. Take it and distribute it among them. I said: I wish you had ordered somebody else to do this job. He said: Malik, take it (and do what you have been told). At this moment (his man-servant) Yarfa' came in and said: Commander of the Faithful, what do you say about Uthman, Abd al-Rabman b. 'Auf, Zubair and Sa'd (who have come to seek an audience with you)? He said: Yes, and permitted them. so they entered. Then he (Yarfa') came again and said: What do you say about 'Ali and Abbas (who are present at the door)? He said: Yes, and permitted them to enter. Abbas said: Commander of the Faithful, decide (the dispute) between me and this sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar. The people (who were present) also said: Yes. Commander of the Faithful, do decide (the dispute) and have mercy on them. Malik b. Aus said: I could well imagine that they had sent them in advance for this purpose (by 'Ali and Abbas). 'Umar said: Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They said: Yes. Then he turned to Abbas and 'Ali and said: I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) said: Yes. (Then) Umar said: Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, had done to His Messenger (ﷺ) a special favour that He has not done to anyone else except him. He quoted the Qur'anic verse:" What Allah has bestowed upon His Apostle from (the properties) of the people of township is for Allah and His Messenger". The narrator said: I do not know whether he also recited the previous verse or not. Umar continued: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) distrbuted among you the properties abandoned by Banu Nadir. By Allah, he never preferred himself over you and never appropriated anything to your exclusion. (After a fair distribution in this way) this property was left over. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) would meet from its income his annual expenditure, and what remained would be deposited in the Bait-ul-Mal. (Continuing further) he said: I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained. Do you know this? They said: Yes. Then he adjured Abbas and 'All as he had adjured the other persons and asked: Do you both know this? They said: Yes. He said: When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used it. So both of you got it. He said: Wasn't it like this? They said: Yes. He said: Then you have (again) come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.
 
 
Now the Sunni position is that Imam Ali forgave Abu Bakr they became good with each other blah blah blah. But this authentic hadith which also features in Bukhari (with the words replaced with so and so) show us
 
1) Imam Ali thought Umar and Abu Bakr to be dishonest 
 
2) Even if it just Fadak, the narration and the highlighted parts so that because Abu Bakr was in control of it Umar is saying Imam Ali held this view all through Abu Bakrs reign, now he’s passed away he holds the view against Umar now as Umar is in control
 
So I think what you have is two contradictory views and the Sunni position of trying to suggest the Rashidun were all friends is ridiculous, Imam Ali AS actual gave one of the perpetrators of Uthmans killing a military commander position in his army in Jamal and didn’t punish him

sunni defense made a video about this and said we shias take this hadith out of context 

in the video they say the hadith actually talks about how ali (عليه السلام) and abbas were having an argument and both approached umar to solve that arguement, and abbas tells umar to chose between him (abba) and the liar, sinful, trecherous, dishonest (ali; according to abbas); and so umar says both of you two (abbas and ali) thought of abu bakr as a liar, sinful, trecherous, dishonest, and you two also think of me (umar) as that...

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, zahralzu said:

sunni defense made a video about this and said we shias take this hadith out of context 

in the video they say the hadith actually talks about how ali (عليه السلام) and abbas were having an argument and both approached umar to solve that arguement, and abbas tells umar to chose between him (abba) and the liar, sinful, trecherous, dishonest (ali; according to abbas); and so umar says both of you two (abbas and ali) thought of abu bakr as a liar, sinful, trecherous, dishonest, and you two also think of me (umar) as that...

 

 

 

It was between two persons not father and son.

 

The example they gave doesn't fit for the hadith

Edited by Mahdavist
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1 hour ago, zahralzu said:

sunni defense made a video about this and said we shias take this hadith out of context 

in the video they say the hadith actually talks about how ali (عليه السلام) and abbas were having an argument and both approached umar to solve that arguement, and abbas tells umar to chose between him (abba) and the liar, sinful, trecherous, dishonest (ali; according to abbas); and so umar says both of you two (abbas and ali) thought of abu bakr as a liar, sinful, trecherous, dishonest, and you two also think of me (umar) as that...

Words of Abbas show hate of Ali (عليه السلام) in hearts of Sahaba from sunni hadiths LOL

And then Umar said you consider me and 1st one as the same.

Opinion of Abbas is nothing for us. Its the view of Ali (عليه السلام) that Umar testified to ke he considers us Liar and dishonest.

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14 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Words of Abbas show hate of Ali (عليه السلام) in hearts of Sahaba from sunni hadiths LOL

And then Umar said you consider me and 1st one as the same.

Opinion of Abbas is nothing for us. Its the view of Ali (عليه السلام) that Umar testified to ke he considers us Liar and dishonest.

True we don’t care about Abbas. But Sunni defense proved that this was a one off argument by giving Hadith of Ali (عليه السلام) on the death bed of Umar saying Umar was now going to reunite with Abu bakr and the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) in heaven, which shows that they ended on “good terms” and “that’s all that matters” 

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6 minutes ago, Guest Huni said:

saying Umar was now going to reunite with Abu bakr and the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) in heaven, which shows that they ended on “good terms” and “that’s all that matters” 

Lol. I don't know why people do this.

Their fabrications (traditions) aren't a hujjah for us. 

If thats so then allow me to quote Sermon 3 from nahaj ul balagha to refute this argument.

Would they accept a hadith from shia source? Then why are we supposed to accept hadith from sunni source?

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6 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Lol. I don't know why people do this.

Their fabrications (traditions) aren't a hujjah for us. 

If thats so then allow me to quote Sermon 3 from nahaj ul balagha to refute this argument.

Would they accept a hadith from shia source? Then why are we supposed to accept hadith from sunni source?

Unfortunately the stuff about Abdullah bin saba being exiled to Yemen for hating Abu bakr and Umar is in Shia books! 

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19 hours ago, Guest Hani said:

Unfortunately the stuff about Abdullah bin saba being exiled to Yemen for hating Abu bakr and Umar is in Shia books! 

Mention the references and narrations

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On 11/2/2020 at 2:56 AM, zahralzu said:

sunni defense made a video about this and said we shias take this hadith out of context 

in the video they say the hadith actually talks about how ali (عليه السلام) and abbas were having an argument and both approached umar to solve that arguement, and abbas tells umar to chose between him (abba) and the liar, sinful, trecherous, dishonest (ali; according to abbas); and so umar says both of you two (abbas and ali) thought of abu bakr as a liar, sinful, trecherous, dishonest, and you two also think of me (umar) as that...

 

 

 

The reason why I am Sunni is mainly cause of these lies.  

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Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Hadith say:

 

Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest

 

More specifically:

 

"So BOTH of you thought of HIM to be a liar, sinful, treacherous"

 

Either my eyes decive me, or TSD is playing some major league mental gymnastics

Edited by MaisumAli
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On 11/2/2020 at 8:53 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Lol. I don't know why people do this.

Their fabrications (traditions) aren't a hujjah for us. 

If thats so then allow me to quote Sermon 3 from nahaj ul balagha to refute this argument.

Would they accept a hadith from shia source? Then why are we supposed to accept hadith from sunni source?

shia books also have ali (عليه السلام) praising umar on his death bed, this is so confusingImageImage

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24 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Hadith say:

 

Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest

 

More specifically:

 

"So BOTH of you thought of HIM to be a liar, sinful, treacherous"

 

Either my eyes decive me, or TSD is playing some major league mental gymnastics

yes it says that, but it also says that abbas thought of ali as those things, and that umar says that what they're saying about eachother is not true and apparently allah is against it according to him, and that this was just a one off argument because ali (عليه السلام) praises umar on his death bed so they apparently made up

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On 11/1/2020 at 10:53 PM, zahralzu said:

❝The best of mankind after Rasulullah (ﷺ) are Abu Bakr and Umar. Love of me will never be united with hatred of Abu Bakr and Umar in the heart of a believer.❞ — Ali ibn Abi Talib (d. 40h) via Tabrani, al-Awsat

An obvious Lie Attributed to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Because he himself never did Bayah of Abu Bakr. The tradition that says he did bayah comes from Ayesha in which she says Ali (عليه السلام) called Abu Bakr to meet secretly, if they met secretly, how did Ayesha saw Ali (عليه السلام) doing Bayah? Lol. When he himself never did Bayah of Abu Bakr, how would he talk about hatred? And in the end, tradition of Muslim confirms, Ali (عليه السلام) used to consider them "Liar Dishonest" etc.

On 11/1/2020 at 10:53 PM, zahralzu said:

❝No one comes to me, preferring me over Abu Bakr and Umar except that I will lash him with the punishment of slanderer.❞ — Ali ibn Abi Talib (d. 40h) via al-Furgan Baynal Haq wal-Batil, 21-22

Wajahat Hussein Hanafi made whole video on refutation of this lie atrributed to Imam Ali (عليه السلام).
Because if thats the case, then did he Punish:
Abdullah Bin Masood? Imam Hassan? etc ?

Abdullah Bin Masood said we used to consider Ali (عليه السلام) most superior among Ahl-e-Madinah
Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) said(While addressing people after death of Ali (عليه السلام)): Yesterday, You have lost the person whom neither the people before him could go ahead of, neither the up coming generations would be able to go.

(Fazail e Sahaba Chain At Least Hassan)

On 11/1/2020 at 10:53 PM, zahralzu said:

❝I asked my father (Ali ibn Abi Talib), "Who are the best people after Rasulullah (ﷺ)?" He said, "Abu Bakr." I asked, "Who then?" He said, "Then `Umar. " I thought he would say Uthman, so I said, "Then you?" He said, "I am only an ordinary person."❞ — Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya (d. 81h) via Bukhari 62/21

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: I am city of knowledge and Ali (عليه السلام) is its gate. (Mustadrak Lil Hakim - Sahih)
Ali (عليه السلام) said: My status in eyes of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was more than that of any creation (Mishkat Al Masabih - Chain Hasan - Zubair Ali Zai)
Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said to Ali (عليه السلام): You are to me in same position as Harun was to Moses except that there is no Prophet After me. (Fazail e Sahaba - Sahih)
Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said to Ali: You are Guardian of every believer After me (Kitab Us Sunnah By Ibn Abi Asim - Hasan)
Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: Looking at the face of Ali (عليه السلام) is Ibadah (Mustadrak Lil Hakim - Hasan Sahih) Wajahat hussein Hanafi refuted Salafis on this hadith
Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: Ali is with Quran and Quran is with Ali. And they will never seperate from each other till they meet me at Fountain of Kausar.

Seeing all these authentic hadiths, anyone who has some sense, would say Ali was no ordinary person.
One hadith contradicts many authentic hadiths.

On 11/1/2020 at 10:53 PM, zahralzu said:

❝Follow the Two (who will rule) after me, Abu Bakr and 'Umar.❞ — The Prophet (ﷺ) via Tirmidhi 3662


Contradicting the Mutawatir hadith of Ghadeer e Khum where Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

I leave behind you two weighty things, Quran and Ahle Bait, if you follow them, you'll never go astray. (Tirimdhi - Sahih)

On 11/1/2020 at 10:53 PM, zahralzu said:

❝...I feel like calling Abu Bakr and his son to appoint him as my successor lest people should say something or wish for something else. (But) Allah will prevent (anyone else from claiming the Caliphate) and the believers will insist (on Abu Bakr).❞ — The Prophet (ﷺ) via Bukhari 93/77

Umar was one of the first people to give bayah to Abu Bakr at saqifah.
If Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) wanted to appoint Abu Bakr as his successor, then why did he was the one to deprive Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) of pen and paper?

Fabrications started to contradict? Lol

Plus Main stream Ahle sunnah believes Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) appointed no one as successor even Imam Al Munazireen Saed Asad confirmed it in his challenge to shias.
Therefore when sunnis themselves don't accept them, they can't show them to us either!

On 11/1/2020 at 10:53 PM, zahralzu said:

❝A woman came to the Prophet (ﷺ) and spoke to him about something and he told her to return to him. She said, "O Rasulullah! If I come and do not find you?" (meaning, "...if you die?") The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "If you should not find me, then go to Abu Bakr."❞ — Jubair bin Mutim (d. 57h) via Bukhari 62/11

It can mean, if he die, then go and catch Abu Bakr :hahaha:

 

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2 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

An obvious Lie Attributed to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Because he himself never did Bayah of Abu Bakr. The tradition that says he did bayah comes from Ayesha in which she says Ali (عليه السلام) called Abu Bakr to meet secretly, if they met secretly, how did Ayesha saw Ali (عليه السلام) doing Bayah? Lol. When he himself never did Bayah of Abu Bakr, how would he talk about hatred? And in the end, tradition of Muslim confirms, Ali (عليه السلام) used to consider them "Liar Dishonest" etc.

Lol don't forget the fact that out of a 6 month time period Ali(عليه السلام) couldn't spend 10 minutes of his time to give bayah to the best of people after The Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

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3 hours ago, zahralzu said:

yes it says that, but it also says that abbas thought of ali as those things, and that umar says that what they're saying about eachother is not true and apparently allah is against it according to him, and that this was just a one off argument because ali (عليه السلام) praises umar on his death bed so they apparently made up

But how does that negate the fact that they thought of Abu Bakr and Umar that way? I know they will attempt mental gymnastics to heal the broken relationship between Ali and Abu Bakr, but it is irrelevant to me, did Ali(عليه السلام) at any time think of Abu Bakr as such?

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Just now, MaisumAli said:

But how does that negate the fact that they thought of But Bakr and Umar that way? I know they will attempt mental gymnastics to heal the broken relationship between Ali and Abu Bakr, but it is irrelevant to me, did Ali(عليه السلام) at any time think of Abu Bakr as such?

their gymnastics say he only used to think that for a brief 6 months but changed his mind based on how things go after that, and judging by umar dying on good terms with ali (عليه السلام) as evident from sermon 227 of nahjul balagha whereby the imam praises umar 

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4 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

The reason why I am Sunni is mainly cause of these lies.  

If the Hadith is proven to not have been an insult to Abu Bakr and Umar by the SD, then why does Bukhari proceed to play with the Hadith in his "sahih" and instead say "Katha wa Katha"?

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On 11/3/2020 at 10:47 AM, zahralzu said:

their gymnastics say he only used to think that for a brief 6 months but changed his mind based on how things go after that, and judging by umar dying on good terms with ali (عليه السلام) as evident from sermon 227 of nahjul balagha whereby the imam praises umar 

Sermon 227 does Not praise Umar at all, rather this notion of "Such and such" man is actually Umar b. Khattab is based of off ibn Hadid's claim which he provides zero evidence for, and says that I saw Sharif Al Radhi had written Umar underneath it, also keep in mind Ibne Hadid is not Shia, rather he is Mutazzile

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13 hours ago, MaisumAli said:

Sermon 227 does Not praise Umar at all, rather this notion of "Such and such" man is actually Umar b. Khattab is based of off ibn Hadid's claim which he provides zero evidence for, and says that I saw Sharif Al Radhi had written Umar underneath it, also keep in mind Ibne Hadid is not Shia, rather he is Mutazzile

you don't think that if it wasn't talking about an individual hated by shias that they wouldn't have felt the need to censor it and replace his name with "such and such"? and Ibn Abi al-Hadid he had Tashayyu in him. Also Yahya bin abi Zayd al-Alawi Said it was Umar :/Image

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5 hours ago, zahralzu said:

you don't think that if it wasn't talking about an individual hated by shias that they wouldn't have felt the need to censor it and replace his name with "such and such"? and Ibn Abi al-Hadid he had Tashayyu in him. Also Yahya bin abi Zayd al-Alawi Said it was Umar :/Image

The term "Such and such" does not necessarily prove it was Omar ibne Khattab, anybody who has read even a small portion of Al Kafi will know that the terms "فُلانٍ وَفُلانٍ" ( So and so) and the terms "Such and such" appear numerous times, matter a fact, a quick search will show that "So and So" has been used 400 times in Al Kafi, and Such and such has been used 120 times

 

So the term Such and such does not confirm anything for omar

 

But let's say for argument 's sake that it is Omar, there were tons of Umar's at the time mate, how do you even know which one?

 

Lastly, since we don't believe Nahjul Balagah is 100% Sahih, well I certainly don't believe that, I hold the opinion that only The Quran is completely Sahih, let's check the authenticity of the report, since Nahjul Balagah itself does not have a chain, we will be using the alternative sources that this sermon is mentioned in to see if it even is authentic or not

 

This sermon is NARRATED, not commentated in Only Tarikh Al Tabari(sunni book), which is known to be a extremely weak book by even sunni standards let alone Shia

 

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5 hours ago, zahralzu said:

and Ibn Abi al-Hadid he had Tashayyu in him. Also Yahya bin abi Zayd al-Alawi Said it was Umar

Mate saying he had a big of Tashayyu in him doesn't make him a Hujjah upon me lol, and forgive me if I'm wrong but doesn't the sub heading of the screen shot you sent me say "Ibn Abu Hadid"?

 

Plus I have already explained how this tradition is not authentic, and to further back it we have numerous authentic traditions in which the Imams hardly condemn Umar, even based off that we can reject this tradition, keeping in mind the fact that this person isn't even confirmed to be umar

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On 11/5/2020 at 12:33 PM, zahralzu said:

you don't think that if it wasn't talking about an individual hated by shias that they wouldn't have felt the need to censor it and replace his name with "such and such"? and Ibn Abi al-Hadid he had Tashayyu in him. Also Yahya bin abi Zayd al-Alawi Said it was Umar :/Image

Quote

al-`Allamah `Ali ibn Nasir who was a contemporary of as-Sayyid ar-Radi and wrote an annotation of Nahjul Balaghah under the name of A`lam Nahjul Balaghah writes in connection with this sermon:
Amir al-mu'minin has praised one of his own companions for his good conduct. He had died before the troubles that arose after the death of the Prophet of Allah.
This is supported by the annotations of Nahjul Balaghah written by al-`Allamah Qutbu'd-Din ar-Rawandi (d. 573 A.H.). Ibn Abi'l-Hadid (vol. 14, p. 4) and Ibn Maytham al-Bahrani (in Sharh Nahjul Balaghah, vol. 4, p. 97) have quoted his following view.
By this Amir al-mu'minin refers to one of his own companions who died before the mischief and disruption that occurred following the death of the Prophet of Allah.
Al-`Allamah al-Hajj al-Mirza Habibu'llah al-Khu'i is of the opinion that the person is Malik ibn al-Harith al-Ashtar on the ground that after the assassination of Malik the situation of the Muslim community was such as Amir al-mu'minin explains in this sermon.
al-Khu'i adds that:
Amir al-mu'minin has praised Malik repeatedly such as in his letter to the people of Egypt sent through Malik when he was made the governor of that place,

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-227-may-allah-reward-such-and-such-man

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On 11/1/2020 at 10:53 PM, zahralzu said:

❝I asked my father (Ali ibn Abi Talib), "Who are the best people after Rasulullah (ﷺ)?" He said, "Abu Bakr." I asked, "Who then?" He said, "Then `Umar. " I thought he would say Uthman, so I said, "Then you?" He said, "I am only an ordinary person."❞ — Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya (d. 81h) via Bukhari 62/21

The matter of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) quoted in sunni books as Ordinary man has already been rejected in the light of verses of Quran and authentic hadiths of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). The discussion is given at the following link:

 

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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On 11/2/2020 at 11:53 AM, zahralzu said:

did he actually speak highly of abu bakr and umar? how do you answer to these?

If any Sunni say that Abu Bakr is better than Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and present few ahadith from our books in support of his statement, my response would be a simple question. In which field he is batter than Imam Ali (عليه السلام)? 

Knowledge (Ilm)?

Bravery (Shuja'ah)? 

Taqwa?

Hilm?

Manzilah?

Taharah?

Sadaqat (truthfulness)?

Sabr?

Or what, please specify.

 

 

 

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