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In the Name of God بسم الله

What do you think of Quranists?


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  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)

Salam they remind  me the second  Caliph Umar that said "Quran is sufficient  for us " then stopped people  from listening  the last will of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) that after him the Kharijits refused to attck to hanged Qurans on spear but they rejected Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as speaking  Quran.

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam they remind  me the second  Caliph Umar that said "Quran is sufficient  for us " then stopped people  from listening  the last will of prophet  Muhammad  (pbu) that after him the Kharijits refused to attck to hanged Qurans on spear but they rejected Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as speaking  Quran.

Salam, so you have a negative view of them?

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Salams,

"Indeed I am leaving two things among you, to which if you hold yourself, you will never astray: the book of Allah –who is all mighty and great- and my ahl al-bayt (household), my 'itra (family). O people hear! And I have announced to you that: indeed you will enter my presence and I will ask you about what you did to the thaqalayn (two weighty things) and the thaqalayn are the book of Allah and my ahl al-bayt."

This is all that needs to be said.

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Salam

I disagree with them, because the Prophet's advice is timeless and meant for all of us, not for just who happened to be listening at that moment. He knew his words were being recorded, he had a team of scribes writing what he said on anything they could get their hands on. If Quranists are right, then that's saying the Prophet lacked foresight, otherwise, he'd've said something about his hundreds of thousands of narrations being meant to be discarded, or he would have kept silent. 

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10 hours ago, musa shakr said:

    How do you feel about Muslims that reject the hadith all together?

 

It's honestly better to just look up old topics discussing beaten down things unless it's some topic which is highly beneficial and it's better to talk about it again and again like Mutah.

Edited by El Cid
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2 hours ago, El Cid said:

 

It's honestly better to just look up old topics discussing beaten down things unless it's some topic which is highly beneficial and it's better to talk about it again and again like Mutah.

I'm sorry. I didn't know it was so beaten down.

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:salam:

Well honestly my only problem with Quranism is that Quranism itself doesn't exist, it's each one it's own theory. 

Look from where they came to what they are today. You had Rashad Khalifa explaining salat on footage, and heck, today's Quranists even reject physical salat. 

Edited by realizm
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It's a self contradictory position, because the Qur'an itself commands us to obey the prophet and to refer our disputes to the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). If one has rejected the ahadith collectively and entirely then they have in fact 'cut' the sunnah out of religion altogether. 

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Have to agree that the Quranist has basically put themselves in a bit of a corner. They could say "we follow only Allah", but Allah Himself tells them to follow the Prophet (s). 

Though I am sympathetic to their views regarding hadith. I think people follow the hadiths more than the Quran itself, even when those hadiths can run contradictory with the Quran (in the Sunni case, there are some hadiths that call for the death of apostates, but then the Quran clearly says "no compulsion in religion"). I think it's because people can't just live with general virtues and principles to guide their often complicated lives, they need something that's so particular and specific. That there's always an answer to "is this thing haram" within the hadith, whilst the Quran is often written in vague(ish) language. In any case, people tend to put greater stalk on the hadith than the Quran, which is just blasphemous in my opinion. 

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3 hours ago, BleedKnee said:

 I think it's because people can't just live with general virtues and principles to guide their often complicated lives, they need something that's so particular and specific.

I think I'm going to agree with you on this. It's a massive problem with people in general that so many do not know how to use the brain that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gave them and exercise good, rational judgment so instead look to scholars to do it for them; so then you wind up with a complex set of rules & regulations that you're following and you lose sight of the important points. This type of legalistic attitude is rife among the Jews & I can't help but think that the Quran was sent down to Muhammad (عليه السلام) specifically because people were nitpicking various religious "laws" rather than living lives with a character that actually pleases God (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and honors their fellow man.

I've received sermons from brothers on topics as unimportant as the position of my body when I sleep while they offered nothing to me about how to better imitate the character of The Prophet Muhammad (عليه السلام) or how to draw closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

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3 hours ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

 how to better imitate the character of The Prophet Muhammad (عليه السلام) or how to draw closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Not related to the post or what you said but since you're big on character I thought you'd like this anecdote of an extreme level of consideration. It's timestamped

If it was me, I'd've just shopped at the poor vendor instead of a super market and I'd think I was being considerate. I hear odd anecdotes about amazing display of character but I'd like to know if there's a book on it...

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Once a non muslim asked me about the different sects of Islam.

I explained him, He understood somewhat.

Before he left, He said "Seems everyone is smoking their own brand of Islam on this Earth".

That statement still makes me laugh even after all these years because it's so true lol

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On 10/28/2020 at 3:46 PM, musa shakr said:

    How do you feel about Muslims that reject the hadith all together?

Salam,

I believe the Quranist want to emphasize that Qur'an is always with the Truth.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protects Quran. However, no all hadiths are protected because the ways hadiths are delivered to us now.  I am sure that Quranist would only agree with those hadiths that aligned with Quran or can be traced back to Qur'an. 

Couple of issues will rise:

1.  Who will have the complete knowledge of Qur'an?

2.  Who are authorized to interpret Qur'an without mistakes?

If the above issues cannot be resolved than we are stuck with correct understanding of Qur'an.  Then we will have a man made grading system to assign to anyone who claims to have knowledge of Qur'an and who are authorized to interpret Qur'an.

We will have same situation with hadiths and who are authorized to interpret Qur'an.

Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has solved this issue during Ghadeer.  The religion will only be completed after Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guaranteed the Authorized persons to interpret Qur'an and serves as guardian to Mukminin.

Authorized persons were the Ahlulbayts and they were protected as in 33:33.

Believe in Qur'an alone or hadith alone or in combination of Quran & hadiths will not be sufficient without a protected Guardians.

The only solution is belief in Prophet and those people that Allahbswt and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) have authorized to save guard Qur'an and hadiths.

Believe in Qur'an and Ahlulbayts, and we never go astray.  That is the answer given by the Prophet.  And majority of muslims are ignorance of it because of misguidance by early muslims after Ghadeer.

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I think they are the next stage in evolution of thinking non-Shias. Because there is so much problem in non-Shia hadith and narrators and personality cult, all the problems that summarized editions and bullets could never solve let alone debate. So they abandon it all while of course staying away from ahl al bayt (عليه السلام).

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On 10/28/2020 at 3:46 AM, musa shakr said:

    How do you feel about Muslims that reject the hadith all together?

It is not a smart idea. The way to beat Quranists in a debate is to use the Quran. I am sure everyone here has read the Verse of Mawada. 

Say, [O Muhammad], "I do not ask you for this message any payment [but] only the Mawada of the Qurba/kinship."

Now, what is Mawada? Mawada is to love and follow. How do we know who to follow without using the Hadith? Who are the Qurba?

That is why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ordered his Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to say,

"I have left behind the Thaqlayan, The Book of Allah and Ahlulbayt. They will not separate until they meet my at the pond."

If we follow the Thaqlayan, we will never go astray.

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On 10/28/2020 at 6:33 PM, guest 2025 said:

Not related to the post or what you said but since you're big on character

My character isn't as great as it could be, but it's something that I strive for because Martin Luther King Jr. said that we should "judge people by the content of their character". I've made a lot of mistakes in life & I'm sure that I'll probably make some more, but that doesn't mean that I don't get up, dust myself off, and try to be the best person I can be every day. Part of the problem I think is that in the past, I modeled myself after people who were nice to me, but not necessarily good people in the grander scheme of things-- I was young and didn't know the difference at the time & I held a lot of resentment toward the world in general for the fact that I didn't get the things I wanted out of life. Like right now, I have to fight the temptation to be bitter because I am not married & don't have children (I'm 34) but viewing that through the lens of character, I view it as a sort of "test" to make sure that I develop into the person that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wants me to be now that I have embraced Islam before I am able to make that huge commitment to another human being and have the responsibility of fatherhood.

When I talk about the "character" of The Prophet Muhammad (عليه السلام), I'm not talking about the often overemphasized parts of the sunnah (what side of his body he slept on, how he dressed, using a miswak over a toothbrush, eating only the foods that he liked to eat, the length of my facial hair, et al) but how he treated others, cultivating a positive attitude about working, being responsible with money and understanding that it is a blessing that should be used to do for others, developing my mind and body, that sort of stuff.

Thanks for the video though, I'll check it out in a little bit if I am still awake (long day at work, going to work for the next two days as well)

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On 10/28/2020 at 1:16 PM, musa shakr said:

    How do you feel about Muslims that reject the hadith all together?

I want to say few things......

Allah is one 
This is truth for sunni and for shia.
Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the prophet of Allah.
This is truth for sunni and for shia.
Quran is the book of Allah.
This is truth for sunni and for shia.

Hadeeth of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)
Sunni say our hadith books are correct shia hadith are faricated.
Shia say our hadith books are correct sunni hadith are faricated.
And same case with the Sunnah of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).
Well i do not know who is right.

A true seeker of truth, trust only Quran.

 

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5 minutes ago, Shahrukh K said:

Hadeeth of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)
Sunni say our hadith books are correct shia hadith are faricated.
Shia say our hadith books are correct sunni hadith are faricated.

A true seeker of truth, trust only Quran.

Even if Sunnis say our Hadiths are fabricated, their own hadiths deny their religion altogether.

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2 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

I want to say few things......

Allah is one 
This is truth for sunni and for shia.
Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the prophet of Allah.
This is truth for sunni and for shia.
Quran is the book of Allah.
This is truth for sunni and for shia.

Hadeeth of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)
Sunni say our hadith books are correct shia hadith are faricated.
Shia say our hadith books are correct sunni hadith are faricated.
And same case with the Sunnah of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).
Well i do not know who is right.

A true seeker of truth, trust only Quran.

 

This is no valid reason to not to trust hadiths.

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  • 2 weeks later...
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On 10/31/2020 at 2:02 PM, Shahrukh K said:

I want to say few things......

Allah is one 
This is truth for sunni and for shia.
Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the prophet of Allah.
This is truth for sunni and for shia.
Quran is the book of Allah.
This is truth for sunni and for shia.

Hadeeth of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)
Sunni say our hadith books are correct shia hadith are faricated.
Shia say our hadith books are correct sunni hadith are faricated.
And same case with the Sunnah of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).
Well i do not know who is right.

A true seeker of truth, trust only Quran.

Speaking as a Sunni, I would still much rather be   A Shia than someone who rejects the Shia & Sunni corpus of Hadith all together.

Speaking as a Shia, I would still much rather be a Sunni than someone who rejects the Shia and Sunni corpus of Hadith all together.  
 

There is a 95% overlap in terms of content in Shia and Sunni ahadith.  And proof of this is to examine the Ihya Ulum Ad-Din of Al-Ghazali and the Shiite version of that same very book where all Sunni hadith were replaced with Shia ahadith.  (REF: lecture by Dr. Saroush

)

those who say Shia Hadith are Outright fabricated and should completely not be trusted are very immature.  Yes, there are plenty of fabricated ahadith in Shia collections.  But Shias are fine with it because they don’t claim to have a “Sahih” collection.  

Shias really don’t have any right or ground upon which to stand to claim that Sunni ahadith are fabricated.  It is not only immature but highly stupid.  They almost always feel the need to say something ridiculous like “Abu Hurayra (رضي الله عنه) was a liar” for example.  

Edited by eThErEaL
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On 10/28/2020 at 1:16 PM, musa shakr said:

    How do you feel about Muslims that reject the hadith all together?

What can you say about the one who accepts the book but rejects the teacher/expert of that book? 

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On 10/29/2020 at 7:30 AM, El Cid said:

"Seems everyone is smoking their own brand of Islam on this Earth".

Though this is true but it is a universal truth. So, it is not only about Muslims but every person. Even Atheists don't align in terms of thoughts on every point. Their is a saying:

"Verily, religion is in the self."

So, how we percieve, what perception we have etc makes up a different 'brand' of ideology in every person.

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On 10/31/2020 at 2:02 PM, Shahrukh K said:

I want to say few things......

Allah is one 
This is truth for sunni and for shia.
Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the prophet of Allah.
This is truth for sunni and for shia.
Quran is the book of Allah.
This is truth for sunni and for shia.

Hadeeth of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)
Sunni say our hadith books are correct shia hadith are faricated.
Shia say our hadith books are correct sunni hadith are faricated.
And same case with the Sunnah of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).
Well i do not know who is right.

A true seeker of truth, trust only Quran.

 

Just to continue with my previous post:

your post makes it appear that Shias carry equal weight as Sunnis do because according to your post, both cancel each other out...   but Shiasm is such a small insignificant minority.  It shouldn’t even be taken all too seriously.  It is like a a little Bratty child confronting and trying to bully a body builder.  Shiaism should belong in the “Other Sects” portion of this forum.  

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18 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Just to continue with my previous post:

your post makes it appear that Shias carry equal weight as Sunnis do because according to your post, both cancel each other out...   but Shiasm is such a small insignificant minority.  It shouldn’t even be taken all too seriously.  It is like a a little Bratty child confronting and trying to bully a body builder.  Shiaism should belong in the “Other Sects” portion of this forum.  

A) If we look at Shiasm as a Jafari school of jurisprudence it is the largest school in Islam. 
B) So hitler and the nazis were “body builders” in Nazi Germany and had the right opinion.

 

1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

Shias really don’t have any right or ground upon which to stand to claim that Sunni ahadith are fabricated.  It is not only immature but highly stupid.  They almost always feel the need to say something ridiculous like “Abu Hurayra (رضي الله عنه) was a liar” for example.  

Why? We have sahih hadiths, we just don’t bring the authenticity of ahadith up to the level of Qur’an like some Sunnis do. Even if we didn’t have sahih hadiths, why can’t we respectfully critique famous Sunni narrators like Abu Hurayra and Aisha? Sorry, but we’re not living in Nazi Germany.

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

Just to continue with my previous post:

your post makes it appear that Shias carry equal weight as Sunnis do because according to your post, both cancel each other out...   but Shiasm is such a small insignificant minority.  It shouldn’t even be taken all too seriously.  It is like a a little Bratty child confronting and trying to bully a body builder.  Shiaism should belong in the “Other Sects” portion of this forum.  

Have some respect for yourself.

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8 hours ago, Guest Ishaaq said:

A) If we look at Shiasm as a Jafari school of jurisprudence it is the largest school in Islam. 
 

If this is how you want to frame it then Hanafi and Maliki Madhabs are Jaferi as Imam Abu Hanifa and Indireclty, Imam Malik, derived their teachings either from Imam Jafer Sadiq (عليه السلام).  Whether it is Hanafi, Maliki it is still Jafferi fiqh.

Point I am making is that Jaferi fiqh of “Shias” is a mere name.  it is in fact divided by Plethora of marjas and by each person who does ijtihad.  

Secondly I wasn’t talking only about fiqh.  I was talking about the entire school of thought 12ver Shiaism vs Traditional Sunni Islam.
 

 

 

8 hours ago, Guest Ishaaq said:


B) So hitler and the nazis were “body builders” in Nazi Germany and had the right opinion.

Shias don’t consider Sunni Islam as an EVIL (they still consider Sunni Islam as valid, a Shia is allowed to marry a Sunni).  So you are making a very bad comparison.  

 

 

8 hours ago, Guest Ishaaq said:

Why? We have sahih hadiths, we just don’t bring the authenticity of ahadith up to the level of Qur’an like some Sunnis do. Even if we didn’t have sahih hadiths, why can’t we respectfully critique famous Sunni narrators like Abu Hurayra and Aisha? Sorry, but we’re not living in Nazi Germany

 

For Sunnis nothing is equal to the Word of God.  

 

 

8 hours ago, Guest Ishaaq said:

 

 

 

.

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  • Haji 2003 changed the title to What do you think of Quranists?
  • Advanced Member

Unfortunately the Quranists haven't taken into account that the Qur'an wasn't written down until after the death of the Prophet Muhammad, and was formally written down under the rule of Caliph Abu Bakr.

There were 4-9 versions of the Quran by the time of the tyrannical Caliph Uthman, and he edited the 4-9 versions into 1.

This is why different sects of Islam place so much emphasis of different secondary texts/Hadiths. 

Unfortunately, within Islam there is a denial of this, and they'll assure you that God delivered the Quran to Prophet Muhammad in perfect book form like a celestial Amazon delivery. 

A graduate level forensic linguist will be able to disprove this within an hour of analysing the Quran.

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