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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is Islam an immoral religion? Debate between SHIA Muslim and Christian PREACHER.

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There's racism involved. It's people of the desert vs the morally ethical Europeans.

What I don't understand is that both religions are Abrahamic faiths, it's not as though Islam came with a new "god", it's the same Deity, new revelation. Christianity is the religion that deviate

This "argument" is mute. 1] Slavery exists in the Bible. Examples: Genesis 17:12 & 27 and Leviticus 19:20 (Douay translation for the phrase "bought slaves). Then for bought "servants" and "bo

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1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

However, if Islam is immoral, then Christianity and Judaism are also immoral. Do you not see the hypocrisy of that ignorant preacher?

I see it. Some like Jay Smith usually just say “We follow JESUS!” and so “OT Laws don’t apply anymore” (whose God was Jesus)! Jesus said to “throw the first stone if you are sinless” to the adulteress (which even biblical scholars context)!

When I watched the discussion in the OP it didn’t make sense how the polite Shia brother said Christians have reached some sort of moral epitome, considering their treatment of minorities. Perhaps he was referring to “turning the other cheek”, well that isn’t a moral high ground, it’s simply impractical. 

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10 hours ago, El Cid said:

.                                                                                          everybody                     the Gospels.

To them, those words come from the Quran. Just like for y^ou they come from their^books

Partially corrected.

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10 hours ago, al-Muttaqin said:

and apparently morally superior to the ancient Indo-Europeans. 

l personally do not like phrases such as "morally superior." These are secular and create arguments. Petty points about what is 'moral.'

Without citing, Quran reveals 'for each era/period a book is revealed' and as in the time of Musa -(عليه السلام)., at the time of lsa -(عليه السلام). (Ayat 3:55) and now lsIam (Ayat 9:33)

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9 hours ago, al-Muttaqin said:

Again, the arabic term used in the Qur'an is al-Nasara which means Nazarene. 

? Maybe  @Cool lexicography, please.

ln Ayat 3:52, the word ansari is used, which has the same triliteral root nun sad ra.  "Helpers" is not the same as evilgelicals who call themselves "chr!stians."

 

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49 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

l personally do not like phrases such as "morally superior." These are secular and create arguments. Petty points about what is 'moral.'

Without citing, Quran reveals 'for each era/period a book is revealed' and as in the time of Musa -(عليه السلام)., at the time of lsa -(عليه السلام). (Ayat 3:55) and now lsIam (Ayat 9:33)

I don't know how you did that but you quoted @Gaius I. Caesarpost but had my username? 

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44 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

? Maybe  @Cool lexicography, please.

ln Ayat 3:52, the word ansari is used, which has the same triliteral root nun sad ra.  "Helpers" is not the same as evilgelicals who call themselves "chr!stians."

 

Ansari and Nasara are different words dude. Ansari refers to the Disciples, Nasara refers to Nazarenes. 

As you should know from a polemical POV, it uses Nasara (Nazarene) as a drawing attention towards how far they've drifted from the teachings of Jesus (etc), their name of self-designation being a self-evident example in this alone.

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8 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

 Yet somehow in medieval Europe, they were perceived as "dirty", "cheaters" and fit only for jobs deemed un-Christian (e.g. Usury)

At times, they were deemed unworthy of life. Why else would the Spanish Inquisition go after them?

Hebrews and Judaism are not above reproach in Western culture and history. That is undeniably false.

Most Eastern people will never understand the dark history of  this complex relationship. I think they should take great care in not buying the lies of anti-Semites/Islamophobes as often

I was not referring to the treatment of Medieval times for Jews in any capacity. I was answering brother Hadi about the historical ties of Europe with christianity. Your question was about that preacher and your question. I answered you in the light of the 21st century. The idea that Judaism and Hebrews are not above reproach in Western culture is not false as you put it. Society treats every race and the perceived stereotype/perception of that race comes into play in societal interaction whether as a positive outcome or a negative outcome(discrimination). Take a look at how your words above, you were quick to paint Eastern people in a certain light because of your perception of them. But Shiachat Mods being racists is nothing new so I don't care.

The reality of society/world is that criticism of Israel, Zionism, Judaism, Hebrews has all been socially engineered to fall into the catergory of Anti-Semetism. You could have the most thought-provoking, legitimate, brilliant criticism of all the aforementioned things in a scholarly article but you'll be thrown under the bus for Anti-Semetism by this society and it's peers. When Illhan Omar criticized the AIPAC, she was witch hunted for being an Anti-Semite though her questions were directed at a political entity. [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/us/politics/aipac-congress-democrats.html] . 

Bill Maher who is known as an "Athiest Jew" made a "documentery" called Religious. This was the poster: Religulous_poster.jpg

One can tell from the poster that it was suppose to be a criticism of all three abrahamic faiths and this was his intention. But when you look at the movie/documentery. Christians and Muslims are viciously attacked yet Jews are handled with so much care and love despite everything implying to go after Abrahamic faiths. Even Bill Maher as a Hebrew cannot afford the stigma and social reject that comes with criticizing anything related to Judaism despite being a Jew himself.

Look at this woman, Her name is Laura Loomer:

This woman's entire House of Rep. campaign is about hating Muslims and Islam. It has nothing to do with healthcare, needs of her district, education, Fighting government corruption. Anything. Just brutalizing Islam. Can any member of western society run an entire campaign based on hating Judaism despite there being a lot of Anti-Semitic people in right-wing circles. Yet they cannot because it's social suicide.

Wasalam.

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Recognizing and acknowledging different benefits/treatments/stereotypes of All Races with the perceived religion associated with them in society is not racist. It's just how the world works and will continue to do so until the Day of Judgement. This world can tell you it's not obsessed with race at all. It's just covering up this harsh reality.

 

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27 minutes ago, El Cid said:

Recognizing and acknowledging different benefits/treatments/stereotypes of All Races with the perceived religion associated with them in society is not racist. It's just how the world works and will continue to do so until the Day of Judgement. This world can tell you it's not obsessed with race at all. It's just covering up this harsh reality.

 

Ayat 30:22

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2 minutes ago, El Cid said:

@hasanhh

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/nora-barrows-friedman/florida-passes-law-protecting-israel-criticism

"Under the state’s legislation, it would be illegal to speak out in public institutions against Israel’s human rights violations."

RESTRICTED CLASSIFICATION

Not for Floridian Distribution

Disgusting

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1 hour ago, al-Muttaqin said:

Nasara refers to Nazarenes. 

l just talked to someone who earned their lsIamic Studies degree from Fez.

This is not correct. Nasara, as in nun sad ra, refers to "followers"/"same attitude" as lsa -(عليه السلام). First Commandment adherence.  Which is not the same as (western) chr!stians (Pauline). 

Nun sad ra and Nasara despite their similar sound to Nazareth/Nazarene are not related. Offhand, for example, despite similar sounds and a few similar behaviors, the English words "tyrant" and "tirade" are not related and have different word origins. This English example is more difficult to discern that the difference between Nasara and Nazarene.

Following up on using the English word "helpers" (in Quran) of Allah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)., lsa -(عليه السلام). and Muhammad -(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).s. :

Ayats 3:52 & 61:14 the meaning is "help" as in an ally

Ayat 18:51 "help" is as in physical assistance

Ayats 47:7 & 57:25 (tansura) "help" as in support

 

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6 hours ago, El Cid said:

Also in Florida, criticism of Israel is against the law.

No it isn't as per my knowledge & if it is, it isn't enforced, there are people down here who criticize Israel all the time. I regularly see some of them holding placards on the side of the road in the town north of where I live that criticize Israel for it's treatment of the Palestinians/settlements. They are a liberal group but you have to take what you can get I suppose.


I think what you may be referring to is probably some resolution where criticism of Israel is not allowed in the state legislature, but I'm not even sure if that resolution passed when it was proposed (although it wouldn't surprise me). Social media can in fact censor what you say/criticize because they are private companies, but it would be a violation of the United States constitution for the government or a law enforcement agency to tell people that they under no circumstances are allowed to criticize the nation of Israel or the Israeli government.
 

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3 hours ago, El Cid said:

Can any member of western society run an entire campaign based on hating Judaism despite there being a lot of Anti-Semitic people in right-wing circles. Yet they cannot because it's social suicide.

You would be surprised, I think it's entirely in the realm of possibility. (E.g. One Nation, EDL, AFD, Proud Boys,etc.) These groups share both antisemitic and Islamophobic views, the next logical step after getting rid of Islam and Muslims, would be a return to antisemitism. It's all calculated.

 

3 hours ago, El Cid said:

Also in Florida, criticism of Israel is against the law.

 That would be against federal law and federal overrides any state law. It should be interesting to see how long it stays before it gets overturned.

 

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34 minutes ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

No it isn't as per my knowledge & if it is, it isn't enforced, there are people down here who criticize Israel all the time. I regularly see some of them holding placards on the side of the road in the town north of where I live that criticize Israel for it's treatment of the Palestinians/settlements. They are a liberal group but you have to take what you can get I suppose.


I think what you may be referring to is probably some resolution where criticism of Israel is not allowed in the state legislature, but I'm not even sure if that resolution passed when it was proposed (although it wouldn't surprise me). Social media can in fact censor what you say/criticize because they are private companies, but it would be a violation of the United States constitution for the government or a law enforcement agency to tell people that they under no circumstances are allowed to criticize the nation of Israel or the Israeli government.
 

Read the article I linked.

5 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

You would be surprised, I think it's entirely in the realm of possibility. (E.g. One Nation, EDL, AFD, Proud Boys,etc.) These groups share both antisemitic and Islamophobic views, the next logical step after getting rid of Islam and Muslims, would be a return to antisemitism. It's all calculated.

 

 That would be against federal law and federal overrides any state law. It should be interesting to see how long it stays before it gets overturned.

 

You said it's entirely in the realm of possibility. What I showed you was a candidate for the House of Rep. whose only campaign is to hate islam and Muslims. She's been recognized and been supported by the President himself. You're saying If/can. I showed you what has. Difference.

As for it being fed law or any other law. The fact that a country which is a Jewish country can be put into law as something you can't criticize clearly annihiliates your statement: Hebrews and Judaism are not above reproach in Western culture and history. That is undeniably false..

And it's not one of those "Oh you silly easterns and your silly thoughts" either. It's based on evidence which I showed you.

Wasalam.

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3 hours ago, El Cid said:

Read the article I linked

I read it and it goes along with what I said that this is only something that applies in "public institutions" but is still not enforced. This is a clear case of government trying to tell people what they can and cannot say, and as this article is from a year ago, I would not be surprised if it has since been rendered as unconstitutional... or will be in the future, because it is unconstitutional. Thanks for pointing this out to me btw, I don't have any money or power but this is obviously something that needs to be brought before the supreme court so that it can be struck down. If I knew how to get to work on something of that nature, I would (despite the fact that America has a two-tiered system of justice that's basically "pay to play")

If Facebook and Twitter were to say "you cannot criticize Israel on our platforms" that would be legal because they are a private company, but government cannot tell you who and what you cannot criticize but as the saying from Voltaire goes (and I'm paraphrasing here) "to learn who is truly in power, simply look at who you are not allowed to criticize".

 

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3 minutes ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

I read it and it goes along with what I said that this is only something that applies in "public institutions" but is still not enforced. This is a clear case of government trying to tell people what they can and cannot say, and as this article is from a year ago, I would not be surprised if it has since been rendered as unconstitutional... or will be in the future, because it is unconstitutional. Thanks for pointing this out to me btw, I don't have any money or power but this is obviously something that needs to be brought before the supreme court so that it can be struck down. If I knew how to get to work on something of that nature, I would (despite the fact that America has a two-tiered system of justice that's basically "pay to play")

If Facebook and Twitter were to say "you cannot criticize Israel on our platforms" that would be legal because they are a private company, but government cannot tell you who and what you cannot criticize but as the saying from Voltaire goes (and I'm paraphrasing here) "to learn who is truly in power, simply look at who you are not allowed to criticize".

 

Fair enough. My only point was this: As for it being fed law or any other law. The fact that a country which is a Jewish country can be put into law as something you can't criticize clearly annihiliates your statement: "Hebrews and Judaism are not above reproach in Western culture and history. That is undeniably false.."

To answer Gaius and his false statement with evidence. As for that phrase. You're right. That is one of the factors though Voltaire never said that. It's mis-attributed to him.

Wasalam.

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2 hours ago, El Cid said:

And it's not one of those "Oh you silly easterns and your silly thoughts" either. It's based on evidence which I showed you

I agree with you and see the evidence, I hope she loses in a big way.

However what I am saying from my experience and what I have seen on SC in the past is brothers and sisters having a naive outlook on the Holocaust and how deeply it affected the West post WWII. 

It's just like how Westerners tend to be really naive about the complexity and depth of Middle Eastern politics and history.

The same people who are peddling this idea that the Holocaust never happened are often also Islamophobes. So hence I said they should take great care where they get and from whom this information from.  It's not racist to make an observation.

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26 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I agree with you and see the evidence, I hope she loses in a big way.

However what I am saying from my experience and what I have seen on SC in the past is brothers and sisters having a naive outlook on the Holocaust and how deeply it affected the West post WWII. 

It's just like how Westerners tend to be really naive about the complexity and depth of Middle Eastern politics and history.

The same people who are peddling this idea that the Holocaust never happened are often also Islamophobes. So hence I said they should take great care where they get and from whom this information from.  It's not racist to make an observation.

You can make a thousand observations a day. No one has any problem with that. 

But unless you've seen my original post denying Holocaust, Mirroring those observations you've made in the post or any thing related to that. Then you cannot say this to me: Most Eastern people will never understand the dark history of  this complex relationship. I think they should take great care in not buying the lies of anti-Semites/Islamophobes as often, those groups tend to go hand in hand with each other.

Because you've stereotyped Eastern people and now you're projecting that stereotype onto me in your discussion despite there being no proof/allegation in the original post. This is racist and you cannot do that. But it's honestly a waste of time discussing racism with people like you on this forum. The people you make racist statements about are so densentized to you being racist that they no longer find it questionable or even know why there's a problem with such statements. Those are the lackeys who come and defend your actions. Then your fellow mods cover up your racism like crooked cops cover police brutality for one another. Then you all conviently disappear when the going gets too tough for you. Evidence? Well it just happened in that zina thread not too long ago. So forget all that.

Anyway, glad you were able to see how things are.

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15 minutes ago, El Cid said:

The people you make racist statements about are so densentized to you being racist that they no longer find it questionable or even know why there's a problem with such statements. Those are the lackeys who come and defend your actions. Then your fellow mods cover up your racism like crooked cops cover police brutality for one another

You can claim I'm racist all you want, it means nothing to me because I haven't said anything racist in nature. 

 

15 minutes ago, El Cid said:

 Most Eastern people will never understand the dark history of  this complex relationship. I think they should take great care in not buying the lies of anti-Semites/Islamophobes as often, those groups tend to go hand in hand with each other.

^ What I have said in the above is true however, from what I have seen in my interactions and experiences. There are plenty of Holocaust denial threads on this site, it's clearly an issue. You know who else agrees with you that Jews and Judaism are above reproach and untouchable? Laura Loomer, because she's a crazed Zionist as well.

How strange that a Muslim, a Zionist and a Neo-Nazi can all find common ground with the conspiracy that Jews were/are untouchable and controlling the world. 

But that's not my problem, I stay far, far away from such beliefs.

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28 minutes ago, El Cid said:

I've shown you evidence of my statement and you cannot put it in the same catergory as "silly eastern thought".

I said nothing of sort, I said specifically: 

Quote

Most Eastern people will never understand the dark history of  this complex relationship. I think they should take great care in not buying the lies of anti-Semites/Islamophobes as often, those groups tend to go hand in hand with each other

It's not a coincidence that the far right shares both Islamophobic and Anti-Semitic sentiments. Although anti-Zionism is not the same as anti-Semitism, all I'm saying is be careful with who you agree with.

Wasalam.

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31 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I said nothing of sort, I said specifically: 

It's not a coincidence that the far right shares both Islamophobic and Anti-Semitic sentiments. Although anti-Zionism is not the same as anti-Semitism, all I'm saying is be careful with who you agree with.

Wasalam.

pkrwgr7pmwky.jpg

Bringing up a person's race in a debate for no reason other than to refute him by mentioning stereotypes makes you nothing but a bigot, Good sir. In fact why even bring up race at all. Refute statements with evidence based on the statement rather than evidence of stereotypes. Hopefully you learn something from Mr.Panda.

Wasalam.

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Waitaminute-- is someone actually trying to say that the holocaust didn't happen?

I had an aunt in the Mathausen concentration camp. The holocaust definitely happened.

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7 hours ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

Social media can in fact censor what you say/criticize because they are private companies,

Have you read or seen any of the testimony before the Senate today?

All of the Big Three Socialist Media Czars were there (Not to be confused with the Big Three automakers of yesteryea).

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1 hour ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

Waitaminute-- is someone actually trying to say that the holocaust didn't happen?

I had an aunt in the Mathausen concentration camp. The holocaust definitely happened.

l do not think so. l re-read it a couple of times.

Yeah, as Gaius did refer to the gullible "shoah deniers", but he is not writing it, shoah, didn't happen. Those deniers get on S.C ever so often and try to push their garbage. Personally, l think Ahmadinejad holding such a denial conference just to poke at the US was the dumbest thing he ever said or did. And it certainly backfired.

My best thoughts to your aunt.

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3 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Have you read or seen any of the testimony before the Senate today?

All of the Big Three Socialist Media Czars were there (Not to be confused with the Big Three automakers of yesteryea).

No I can't say that I did, I wasn't online much today. I was doing other things (reading, riding my bike, doing chores for my mom)

Did anything substantial come of it?

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9 minutes ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

No I can't say that I did, I wasn't online much today. I was doing other things (reading, riding my bike, doing chores for my mom)

Did anything substantial come of it?

l have as yet not-read-enough, but the Big Three Social-Media were defending their censorship of stories critical of Democrats and Baden in particular.

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4 hours ago, hasanhh said:

l have as yet not-read-enough, but the Big Three Social-Media were defending their censorship of stories critical of Democrats and Baden in particular.

It's pretty well known that these companies are in the bag for Biden and the Democrat party at this point. They don't even try to hide it anymore. I don't know if you are aware, but Google held some big conference after the 2016 election where the employees were all crying about "things not going the way we wanted them to" (meaning that Trump won the election) & they discussed how they could help to rig the 2020 election so that "this never happens again". That alone should be cause for the US government to break them up and scatter them to the wind. Tech companies don't have any right to be forcing their irreligious, anti-family, far left cultural values on the rest of the country by censoring news and information that the rest of us need to make an informed decision on who to vote for. They have far too much power and that power needs to be stripped from them because they are the very companies and people I'm talking about when I sound the alarm on "woke" and other far-left cultural ideologies that want to promote and celebrate things which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has told us are sinful and shameful.

I'm sorry I harp on it so much, but it's something that really concerns me because I don't want to see the perfect religion of all of the prophets (عليه السلام) destroyed by innovation and moral compromise with American consumer-capitalist/"hollywood" values.

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51 minutes ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

Waitaminute-- is someone actually trying to say that the holocaust didn't happen?

Seems like it to me:

Quote

Hebrews and Judaism are both things which are above criticism from anyone of any race. Doing so will result in social suicide. Ethnic people perceived to be Muslims and the  religion of Islam are ripe targets for anyone to throw under the bus. No one will bat an eye.

You and I understand that some Neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers also like to use this pithy little phrase often, especially when they want to cry foul over European speech laws.

The point I am trying to make is: over the six years I have been here, I have noticed some Holocaust denial in some threads and I think it's troubling because I wonder where some of these brothers get these ideas from?

Because it's usually espoused by Islamophobes as well, as I stated in a previous post, it's not a coincidence that Islamophobes and anti-Semites tend to overlap and share the same political mindset.

There should be, theoretically speaking, no common ground between us and the Islamophobe/anti-Semite. These people genuinely see us as a threat and danger to their way of living, why in the world would we ever agree with them? 

 Then again, maybe I'm "racist" for noticing a consistent theme in my interactions with some people over the years.

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11 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

No, you are not.

You're right he isn't. I've told him this above that he can make a thousand observations about anything. 

 

27 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

 

 Then again, maybe I'm "racist" for noticing a consistent theme in my interactions with some people over the years.

Just don't project your observations of other people onto me based on race and the stereotype you have of said race especially when I've said nothing of the sort. And gave plenty of evidence for my statement. That's where the problem lies. If something so simple can't be understood. Then I'd be worried.

Wasalam.

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7 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Jews were/are untouchable and controlling the world. 

The conspiracy is not about Jews, it’s about zionists like the RothschiId’s and the RockefeIIers controlling the world. They say that a RothschiId central bank is in almost every country except a few like North Korea and lran. Have you looked deeply into such conspiracies?

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